Does the devil exist? [Archive]

macsen rufus

04-26-2008, 10:45

I say we try another angle.

Could someone open a thread called "Does the devil exist?" and state his position, so we can see where we get. I promise not to troll, derail or misbehave otherwise, on condition that it's the real beef we're discussing. Not some abstract concept of evil that is defined beforehand as intangible and incomprehensible, but a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world.

G'won, hit me!

I'll take the bait, and start the ball rolling. I probably wouldn't have been moved to, except that earlier this week I saw a newspaper billboard, in which the featured headline was "Satan was at the wheel". I presume this meant some driver was claiming (in court) that his car crash was caused by the aforementioned "consciously evil" entity, rather than his own shortcomings with mechanical devices.....

Personally I take the view that human folly and selfishness is sufficient cause for all the evil we perceive in the world, without multiplying entities to account for it, yet I have encountered many, many devout people who absolutely know the Devil is real (and is personally responsible for me not believing in him).

Let it roll :bow:

HoreTore

04-26-2008, 10:48

Well, looking at what the good guy does(killing every firstborn for the crimes of the monarch, burning an entire city because of gay people, etc), I say we give this "devil" a shot.

Mikeus Caesar

04-26-2008, 12:03

I for one, welcome our Satanic overlord.

Beirut

04-26-2008, 12:13

I thought you were the Satanic overlord.

Oh well, I'll take the posters down and stop praying. :shrug:

Mikeus Caesar

04-26-2008, 17:01

I thought you were the Satanic overlord.

Oh well, I'll take the posters down and stop praying. :shrug:

Put those posters back up, minion. I'm your quasi-Satanic overlord.

Mooks

04-27-2008, 05:40

My first thought when I saw the thread "Is this the beggining of a chain reaction? Only a matter of time before "Does the Easter Bunny exist?"

Anyway, people need a scapegoat for some reason. And the devil (a unseeable-unknowable force) is a good one.

Big_John

04-27-2008, 05:57

"a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other metaphysical interventionist.

Gaius Scribonius Curio

04-27-2008, 08:39

Its one of those things that can be debated endlessly, while never getting any closer to being solved. If it does exist then it is beyond our understanding anyway.

My own opinion on the matter is that God, the Devil etc. are all a creation of the human mind. My reasoning is that as a species we need order, otherwise we'll end up wiping each other out. As every person has free will, then without rules and consequences, people would be able to do anything they want (if they had no morals).

In other words, the promise of eternal life and bliss for being good, and of punishment, fire and brimstone if you're not, is the ultimate way of maintaining order of some kind.

Complicated and not very well thought through I know, but just my two cents.

Cronos Impera

04-27-2008, 08:54

The Antichrist is here.
In Romanian bookkeeping we often list expesnses with intrests using "666"

So a standard procedure when recording interest expenses is:

666=5121

Adrian II

04-27-2008, 10:24

The Antichrist is here.
In Romanian bookkeeping we often list expesnses with intrests using "666"

So a standard procedure when recording interest expenses is:

666=5121I knew it! His Majesty is a bookkeeper! The Deevil is always in the small print and there is no smaller print than the secret codes in an accountant's little black booklet, the shadow of his legal dealings.

(Clouseau voice): How clevair of yeu, Beelzebub! :bow:

Seriously, we have no shortage or Orgahs who tell us that they pray to God and expect salvation, of not divine intervention, as a result. Where is the first Orgah to tell us in all seriousness that the Devil made him do something?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-27-2008, 10:57

Well, find someone who said God "made" him do something first, then ask about mister horns-and-goat's legs.

Banquo's Ghost

04-27-2008, 11:04

Where is the first Orgah to tell us in all seriousness that the Devil made him do something?

Believe me, members appeal their warnings on that ground all the time...

:book2:

Geoffrey S

04-27-2008, 11:10

Not some abstract concept of evil that is defined beforehand as intangible and incomprehensible, but a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world.
Wasn't the whole point that each of the six billion wandering is potentially that definition? The devil is the depths to which a person can fall. While the motivations may be intangible, the deeds are not.

Kagemusha

04-27-2008, 11:18

Pannonian

04-27-2008, 11:32

Well of course, "good" Adrian II. Who would start a thread in order to find out who believe´s in the devil, more likely then the old trickster himself. I call for immediate water test in order to clear that in fact Mr. Adrian II is the devil. If he will sink, he is innocent and will go to heaven, if he floats, we just have to burn him at stake!~:thumb:
Can we put him in concrete boots and a potassium suit before we chuck him into the pond? Why should we choose between drowning him and burning him when we can have both?

Adrian II

04-27-2008, 11:34

Well of course, "good" Adrian II. Who would start a thread in order to find out who believe´s in the devil, more likely then the old trickster himself. I call for immediate water test in order to clear that in fact Mr. Adrian II is the devil. If he will sink, he is innocent and will go to heaven, if he floats, we just have to burn him at stake!~:thumb:

You want to burn the Devil, master Kagemusha? :mellow:

Surely you are aware of his peculiar abode and circumstance being such that flames are the least of his worries.

Kagemusha

04-27-2008, 11:37

Can we put him in concrete boots and a potassium suit before we chuck him into the pond? Why should we choose between drowning him and burning him when we can have both?

Because we are just people and we have to first see whether he is truly the devil. So if he drowns and is innocent, he will be at the gate of heaven talking with St.Peter about atheism in no time.:laugh4:

Adrian II

04-27-2008, 11:40

Because we are just people and we have to first see whether he is truly the devil. So if he drowns and is innocent, he will be at the gate of heaven talking with St.Peter about atheism in no time.:laugh4:I will prove to St. Peter that he does not, in fact, exist.

Kagemusha

04-27-2008, 11:41

You want to burn the Devil, master Kagemusha? :mellow:

Surely you are aware of his peculiar abode and circumstance being such that flames are the least of his worries.

Surely the devil would us like to think so, the cunning old goat behind he is.If we are to fight the devil, successfully we need to have the resolve of the people from Monty Python´s The Holy Grail, anything less will lead in to total failure:strawman3:

Banquo's Ghost

04-27-2008, 12:27

Surely the devil would us like to think so, the cunning old goat behind he is.If we are to fight the devil, successfully we need to have the resolve of the people from Monty Python´s The Holy Grail, anything less will lead in to total failure:strawman3:

:2thumbsup:

Anyway, he must be the Devil, because he looks like one.

And he turned Crazed Rabbit into a Newt.

rory_20_uk

04-27-2008, 12:45

God cast down lucifer.

So if God exists it's as reasonable to assume so does the devil. Telling them apart might be the toughest thing though...

~:smoking:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-27-2008, 13:31

KukriKhan

04-27-2008, 13:32

"a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other metaphysical interventionist.

Yeah, that's the trouble with those MI's ("metaphysical interventionists"; excellent term, Big_John! :thumbsup:) by their very definition as 'metaphysical' we already posit, for argument's sake, that they are bigger, stronger, and more complex than we are - hence we canot know their motivations, hence we cannot "know" them, as we know each other. So, we try to prove their existence via their apparent interventions.

Two thoughts, though: as rory_20_uk points out, in most of the stories, the godMI is stronger than the devilMI, the godMI having created the devilMI. And, the godMI performs his interventions on an individual (human), group, regional and global scale, whereas the devilMI seems to only act on the individual scale, as tempter of single humans to misbehave.

This makes their competition for human souls seem pathetically one-sided; not a true competion, as we know it, at all. The devilMI, though "strong" compared to us, must be a mere annoyance to the godMI.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-27-2008, 13:51

More interesting is the fact that God could destroy the Devil but chooses not to.

Why?

Rhyfelwyr

04-27-2008, 16:49

More interesting is the fact that God could destroy the Devil but chooses not to.

Why?

Isn't he supposed to during the Apocalypse.:shrug:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-27-2008, 21:47

Well yes, but why wait?

Something to think about.

Craterus

04-27-2008, 22:23

Biblical drama, of course. When trying to pass fiction as fact, it's especially important to make it all extremely exciting.

Divinus Arma

04-27-2008, 22:27

"a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other metaphysical interventionist.

Hey Big_John, terrific choice of words. "Metaphysical interventionist" best describes the inaccurate perception of the Lord as promulgated by the Catholic Church.

I am posting here to deflate that. I'll first address the perception of the Lord as an interventionist in experiential reality. Then I'll address the nature of the Devil and Evil.

Regarding the Intervention of the Lord: I would ask that you first check out this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100787&page=5) to cover the foundation for the nature of God.

God does not physically intervene. It doesn't happen. That is the reason we were created. We are his hands upon the world. We, when we choose to follow his will, contribute to shaping existence. We physically intervene and do as he desires to change our experience as sentient beings. This does not require a high intellect or a specific talent. We all have our individual role to play.

Their is no self-aware evil. The Devil as an entity does not exist. Evil is our decision to act directly contradictory to the will of God. Most of what we do is neutral and has no significance: defecating, sleeping, etc. But when we have the opportunity to commit an act of evil with no consequence for commission (finding a wallet and taking out the money), we choose to do His will or not. Furthermore, if we choose to take it a step further and create opportunities to commit evil, we are acting with a greater degree of evil.

Not all evil is equal. But all evil is still evil. Just as water may vary in volume, it is still water.

We take on the role of Devil when we choose to not just ignore God's will, but when we choose to exploit created opportunities to act against God. In this way, since we are created beings, the Devil is indeed "created".

As for "which is stronger": The best analogy compares God to light and evil to darkness. Darkness does not extinguish light. Rather, darkness is an absence of light.

So too with following the will of God. Evil exists when we fail to follow His will. We can follow, we can ignore, or we can act against. Most people just ignore and pretend that both evil and God do not exist. Thus a person who murders someone for fun must be "insane" rather than evil.

Rhyfelwyr

04-27-2008, 22:44

Their is no self-aware evil. The Devil as an entity does not exist.

I thought there was a devil in Christianinty. An angel that went against God or something like that. Haven't got to that part in the Bible yet.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-28-2008, 00:39

Yes, Lucifer "Light Bringer" the left hand of God who first incited man to sin.

Divinus Arma

04-28-2008, 06:58

I know that I break with ordinary Christians when I say that I do not support Christian mythology. I find the "Devil" and other similar super-natural entities as distracting from the true message of God and the importance of our relationship with him.

It has no modern relevance. Our age requires a new understanding of the role of God in our lives.

HoreTore

04-28-2008, 07:03

I thought there was a devil in Christianinty. An angel that went against God or something like that. Haven't got to that part in the Bible yet.

IIRC, that story isn't in the bible itself...

Sigurd

04-28-2008, 07:24

Their is no self-aware evil. The Devil as an entity does not exist. Evil is our decision to act directly contradictory to the will of God.
You shouldn't pick and choose from Christianity.
I gather from the other thread about understanding Christianity that you believe in the entity of Jesus. If so, you need to accept the entity of Satan as it is particularly described in the same books by the same authors that Satan tempted Jesus in his fasting days and quoted scriptures. Also, evil spirits were purged from several people, spirits that knew Jesus for who he really was.

We have all heard the explanations of why God does not intervene with the cruelty of humanity. It is always, free will. Humans were given the freedom to choose to do evil or good.
For mankind to choose between evil and good and be judged accordingly, a few concepts need to be in place (that is if the concept of evil and good is universal as in Christianity).
Firstly universal laws must be in place. Laws given by an all mighty God. Laws that you can obey or break.
Secondly opposites must exist. There have to be good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong. Opposite forces that pull in opposite directions.
Thirdly knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Those who exercise free will or agency need to have the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right.
Fourth, the freedom to choose between good and evil.

Rob The Bastard

04-28-2008, 10:24

God is not a nice guy. Has a preference for object lessons and mass obliberations.

The Devil is not so pleasant either, but prefers deceptions and subterfuge on a less grandiose scale.

Do I truly believe?

Not sure... to many nutters down here to worry about, than to worry about the "big picture".

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-28-2008, 10:53

You shouldn't pick and choose from Christianity.
I gather from the other thread about understanding Christianity that you believe in the entity of Jesus. If so, you need to accept the entity of Satan as it is particularly described in the same books by the same authors that Satan tempted Jesus in his fasting days and quoted scriptures. Also, evil spirits were purged from several people, spirits that knew Jesus for who he really was.

We have all heard the explanations of why God does not intervene with the cruelty of humanity. It is always, free will. Humans were given the freedom to choose to do evil or good.
For mankind to choose between evil and good and be judged accordingly, a few concepts need to be in place (that is if the concept of evil and good is universal as in Christianity).

Firstly universal laws must be in place. Laws given by an all mighty God. Laws that you can obey or break.
Secondly opposites must exist. There have to be good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong. Opposite forces that pull in opposite directions.
Thirdly knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Those who exercise free will or agency need to have the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right.
Fourth, the freedom to choose between good and evil.

Except that this whole theory breaks down because all proceeds as he has forseen regardless. If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

Sigurd

04-28-2008, 12:25

If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.
I don't follow you logic here... care to use lay-man on me or is there some nuances in the english language that does not translate to my Norwegian programmed brain?

LittleGrizzly

04-28-2008, 13:20

I don't follow you logic here... care to use lay-man on me or is there some nuances in the english language that does not translate to my Norwegian programmed brain?

I think he is saying if God is all seeing and all nowing then God already nows your path/fate/future so there are no choices for you to make.

My assumption would be that even though God nows what choice you will make you are still free to make it, God just nows what choice you will make.

atheotes

04-28-2008, 19:10

JAG

04-28-2008, 19:31

Except that this whole theory breaks down because all proceeds as he has forseen regardless. If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

:2thumbsup: God would have to have created the earth and know everything, as well as being able to choose any path and have free will. Of himself and for himself, you can't be both.

Anyway, is there a devil? lol, pretty ridiculous.

HoreTore

04-28-2008, 20:32

Except that this whole theory breaks down because all proceeds as he has forseen regardless. If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

Hmmm.....

So why does he punish people then? To me it looks like he's a damn sadist :whip:

Making people do something and then punish them for it...

ajaxfetish

04-29-2008, 00:34

I tend to think of the devil as the universal scapegoat. It's much easier to feel good after doing bad things if we can convince ourselves that an evil entity made us do it, much harder to look our own individual dark sides squarly in the face.

Ajax

Sigurd

04-29-2008, 08:14

I am not going to let you theists weasel yourselves out of this one.
One of the major doctrines in Christianity (I guess we landed on this one religion in here), is that of the existence of evil.
I can’t think of any Christian denominations that does have the godhead but not Satan in its theology. And this notion that we live under a spell called fate smacks of wrong definitions of omniscience.

We had fate in our pagan beliefs and that was one of the things Christianity abolished.
I think there is room for an omniscient being to know every possible path we can end up on. Paths that change depending on what we choose on a particular turn in our life. It is this choice that God’s children are free to make.
I am not a believer in fate, but I believe that someone can predict outcomes based on knowledge, experience and perhaps manipulation. The more knowledge and experience you have the better the prediction will be. The more power and tools you have the more you can manipulate outcomes.

If I ever considered Christianity, I would not believe in a God who has names written in a book, names that will enjoy heaven or are damned to hell. It would seem pointless. It would be fate all over again. Whatever you do, you can’t change it. It has been decided for you, you can’t free yourself of this path you are on.
In Christianity there is a devil or many devils. You can’t get around it. To do so you must renounce the Bible; the very source Christianity is built upon. Take away the Bible and the card house which is Christianity tumbles to the ground.

Flying Pig

04-29-2008, 16:45

LittleGrizzly

04-29-2008, 17:37

I think there is room for an omniscient being to know every possible path we can end up on. Paths that change depending on what we choose on a particular turn in our life. It is this choice that God’s children are free to make.

Im curious, do you think God nows what choices we are going to make before we make them ?

Craterus

04-29-2008, 21:26

How can he not?

ajaxfetish

04-30-2008, 00:39

I am not going to let you theists weasel yourselves out of this one.
I don't consider it a weasel issue so much. My church definitely believes in a literal Satan. But this is one of numerous points where I'm just not so orthodox as some people would like me to be.

Ajax

Husar

04-30-2008, 05:34

I have a wierd view on God/the Devil, so please nobody assassinate me!

'God' is a word people created to describe the force that created the universe, like luck which is an embodiment of random stuff going your way. The davil, thus, is as god but made to explain evil

By the way, I am an atheist.
Well, 'table' is a word invented to describe a device you can put things on and 'chair' is a word invented to describe a device you can sit on but I know what you mean. It does not explain a lot though. ~;)

Papewaio

04-30-2008, 06:14

The Devil proof of existence is just as hard as proving there is a God in the first place.

Also which evil entity is it to be? Seems to me that a lot of the Devils of a religion where the neighbours Deity of choice. Seems awfully arbitrary for a Universal Ruler who is supposed to give enough knowledge so people can make an informed willful choice...maybe just maybe the only Devil is human prejudices and the only infinite is human stupidity.

Divinus Arma

05-01-2008, 23:50

You shouldn't pick and choose from Christianity.
I gather from the other thread about understanding Christianity that you believe in the entity of Jesus. If so, you need to accept the entity of Satan as it is particularly described in the same books by the same authors that Satan tempted Jesus in his fasting days and quoted scriptures. Also, evil spirits were purged from several people, spirits that knew Jesus for who he really was.

We have all heard the explanations of why God does not intervene with the cruelty of humanity. It is always, free will. Humans were given the freedom to choose to do evil or good.
For mankind to choose between evil and good and be judged accordingly, a few concepts need to be in place (that is if the concept of evil and good is universal as in Christianity).
Firstly universal laws must be in place. Laws given by an all mighty God. Laws that you can obey or break.
Secondly opposites must exist. There have to be good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong. Opposite forces that pull in opposite directions.
Thirdly knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Those who exercise free will or agency need to have the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right.
Fourth, the freedom to choose between good and evil.

I don't deny the existence of the devil. I deny the existence of the devil as has been interpreted to date. I don't believe a self-aware and conscience entity exists that lives in opposite to God. The devil I recognize is one that only manifests itself in us. Without man, God still exists but the devil does not.