Bloody hell. Father locking his daughter in the basement for 24 years

[HoreTore]

This is insane.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7369851.stm

24 freakin' years. Coupled with incest. And locking up three of the kids that was made too.

[Cronos Impera]

Now that Emir Kusturita movie really made sense, the one with that communist leader having his community locked in his basement for 20 years, producing weapons for civil wars and such.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114787/
And that chimp didn't even age.
So what you have here isn't as cool as it could have been.

[Kralizec]

Sigh, those Austrians again...

[HoreTore]

Good thing the austrians don't have the death penalty.

This guy deserves to drop his soap in the prison shower every day for the rest of his life, not a quick death.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:inquisitive:

How do people get so broken in the head?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

His wife Rosemarie had allegedly not been aware of what was going on.

Hmmm... Either the father is the bloody Scarlet Pimpernel, or someone's pants are on fire here. How on earth would you not be aware of the fact that there are seven people locked in your basement?!

[LeftEyeNine]

This is absolutely sick and depressing to insanity when it comes to mind.

Second similar case from Austria. What the hell is going on there ? :inquisitive:

I wish for a quick recovery for Elisabeth Fritzl. Shall she have a beautiful life from now on after all this agony.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hmmm... Either the father is the bloody Scarlet Pimpernel, or someone's pants are on fire here. How on earth would you not be aware of the fact that there are seven people locked in your basement?!

The mother is told to have lost her mental order.

[Mikeus Caesar]

What is this Austrian obsession with locking young girls in basements for years?

[Adrian II]

Second similar case from Austria. What the hell is going on there ? :inquisitive:Used to be Belgian second-hand care salesmen that had all the cellars and child abuse and stuff. Then it was Roman Catholic clergy in the U.S., now it's Austrian technicians. Goes to show, em, nothing at all really.

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is a new case? All I heard on the news was something about father locking daughter in basement in Austria and I thought it must be to do with that case I heard about ages ago. Can't believe this is a completely new case, it never rains but it pours doesn't it? :dizzy2:

[KukriKhan]

Just thinking out loud here: age 72 = born 1936. As a child watched his country go from thrilling victory to ignomious defeat, the humiliating revelations of Nuremburg, very real "Red Scare"s, the implied complicity of the Austrian populace... I wonder if we'll find out he was some sort of survivalist, building his own tribe.

[Adrian II]

I wonder if we'll find out he was some sort of survivalist, building his own tribe.It's Austria, not Texas! :laugh4:
Though that's a brillliant story line for a novel you sketched: Austrian breeds new underground race to escape from upstairs superrace.

EDIT
And you may be onto something there. I read a British foreign correspondent's column today that claims that this case and the Kampusch case are not the only instances of Austrian children being locked up by parents or foster parents. There have been several more over the past two decades and one child was even kept in a coffin for years before being "discovered".

"Questions are now being asked as to whether these cases are a symptom of a rich, self-satisfied society as commentators are asking across Austria's press today. A society in which people fail to question what is happening next door, as long as their own lives are happy and intact. It is also a society that, as the Guardian's former diplomatic editor Hella Pick has pointed out in her book Guilty Victim, has a very dark side. For years, it used slick marketing skills - promoting its mountains and Mozart - and the title conveniently given to it by the allies as "Hitler's first victim" to avoid confronting the central role it played in the Holocaust. One should be wary of taking this parallel too far, but this country knows and has ingested the rules of how to cover up."

A bit far-fetched maybe, but so is this whole case.

[BananaBob]

I just watched this live on the BBC. Police were really open about the whole thing. Anyone hear about the status of the original mother/daughter?

[KrooK]

Austria was always strange country for me. But not its ridiculus.
He locked his daughter into basement, told his wife that she disappeared.
Told same police. And everyone trusted him.

1) What have done his wife. Are women really so stupid? Didn't she ever went to basement? Or maybe she took part.
2) What have done police? Were they so stupid not to check?

[Adrian II]

Krook, your sig stinks to high heaven.

[LeftEyeNine]

:poland:

[spmetla]

What the Hell?!?! Why would someone do this?

[JAG]

Pretty sick individual. Pretty bloody sick.

[Adrian II]

What the Hell?!?! Why would someone do this?Yeah well, it is tempting to find some political explanation, but I guess some people are just messed up and that's it. But why did it remain undetected for so long? That's what must be bothering most over there.

It turned out that in the Kampusch case the police had the identity and car registration number of the kidnapper and could have nailed him within weeks, if not days. How about that.

[Tribesman]

Austria was always strange country for me.

For you everywhere is always strange apart from

POLAND

[LeftEyeNine]

I can't help echoing Tribeseymansey.

:poland:

[atheotes]

hmm... very very sick... i am just wondering how he managed to keep all 4 of them in control... i mean, surely, they would have tried to escape or at the least make noises...

[cegorach]

Second similar case from Austria. Very strange.

Still no pattern to explain - there is nothing in Austria which could explain that strange sequence of similar, horrid incidents.





Their internal security seemed shattered when he spoke about it in Warsaw today. Certainly a bad time for Austria - people will recall the previous case for sure.











@to some guys here

Please do not engage in personal arguments. Still I have learnt from my experience that discussing certain subjects here with some people is an exceptionally large waste of time of time and effort - use PMs for that otherwise you will only obscure a different discussion.

[JAG]

hmm... very very sick... i am just wondering how he managed to keep all 4 of them in control... i mean, surely, they would have tried to escape or at the least make noises...

He kept them in a secure space, with one entrance which had some form of coded lock on it, hidden behind shelves. He was pretty thorough.

[BetterDeadThanRed]

Good god, what a monster. As was already mentioned, this kind of man transcends the death penalty and should bear enduring torture for the rest of his life at the hands of sexually depraved inmates, even then that's not half of the torture he dealt those 7 people.

[ICantSpellDawg]

He should have just gotten a Realdoll.

What a freak show. I find it hard to believe that the wife wouldn't go into the basement in 20 some odd years.

[cegorach]

Apparently there will be a connection between both crimes.

The victim of the previous case Natascha Kampusch offered to help to the woman and her children.

Perhaps it is the best idea I have heard about this till right now.

[JAG]

Good god, what a monster. As was already mentioned, this kind of man transcends the death penalty and should bear enduring torture for the rest of his life at the hands of sexually depraved inmates, even then that's not half of the torture he dealt those 7 people.

Hold on to your horses, don't get ahead of yourself.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Good god, what a monster. As was already mentioned, this kind of man transcends the death penalty and should bear enduring torture for the rest of his life at the hands of sexually depraved inmates, even then that's not half of the torture he dealt those 7 people.

The man should be incarcerated for the remainder of his life (penal/mental institution). He obviously constitutes a threat to others.

Torture is not justified, morally, as a form of punishment. To use it demeans the society condoning same and the individuals involved.

[Adrian II]

Torture is not justified, morally, as a form of punishment. To use it demeans the society condoning same and the individuals involved.:bow: Well said.

I think we simply have to accept that there are 'monsters' like this in every society. Some of them may have been 'created' by particular circumstances, but those usually remain beyond anyone's knowledge until the monstrosities erupt into the public consciousness.

But that is only part of the explanation of why these things happen. The other part is that the monsters usually go undetected for some time, and sometimes for a very long time, after they first strike. And the circumstances that make this possible always invite close scrutiny.

I recall that when the Belgian 'Dutroux scandal' erupted in 1996, experts and social commentators initially looked for 'root causes' of the scandal in Belgian society, in Wallonian politics, in Roman Catholicism or in the sexual revolution of the 1960's. Interesting as they may have been, such analyses were somehow never really convincing. After some years, a more sophisticated approach by artists (literary authors, filmmakers) began to take hold. Their books and movies concentrated on the question what type of social networks and arrangements, customs and traditions allowed such things to happen unseen for so long. The existence of aberrant types like Dutroux was taken for granted, the fact that they could apparently remain unchecked and even flourish was not. They demonstrated that the living conditions and social arrangements in a once thriving, but now forgotten and poverty-ridden provincial town like Charleroi were conducive to all sorts of abuse, Dutroux being merely the tip of an iceberg of profound social and moral decay. Their analyses (or rather, their artistic approaches) were far more convincing.

When you look at it that way, there may be something to what the British correspondent said about Austrian society and a cult of secrecy and dissimulation.

[Rhyfelwyr]

There's no point in torturing him.

He should just be wiped off this earth as quickly as possible.

What the **** is wrong with these people? Gah, is there any point even asking that?

[Adrian II]

What the **** is wrong with these people? Gah, is there any point even asking that?Yes there is. But i fear the answer is disappointing in that all sociopaths are different and got that way for different reasons. Some have clearly been accidents waiting to happen since their early youth, others suddenly 'snap', still others gradually deteriorate over the years. But I have no doubt that forensic profiling can be very helpful in preventing crimes, flushing our probable suspects or tracking down perpetrators.

[Rhyfelwyr]

We just need to watch more CSI and Diagnosis Murder.

Dr. Sloan will get them all in no time!

[Adrian II]

We just need to watch more CSI and Diagnosis Murder.

Dr. Sloan will get them all in no time!The flipside is victimology, an underrated discipline of criminology. It profiles (potential) victims which can be very useful if you want to know where a perpetrator may strike next, or if you want to set up a successful sting operation.

[Kagemusha]

Killing this excuse of a human would be like shooting a fatally injured animal, act of mercy. I dont think he deserves any mercy. Just another case of locking up and throwing away the key. I cant even start to comprehend how traumatized the victims of this monster are.:shame:

[FactionHeir]

Quite an ordeal his children had to go through, I feel for them. Still, I am surprised that the other children would just watch him rape their mother/sister without stopping him, since he must have gone down there alone. Afterall, they must have been capable of stopping a 73 year old guy.

[Samurai Waki]

We need to deal with these people like the English did Edward II, we don't want to kill him immediately. I want him to suffer, and suffer, and suffer, and suffer, and suffer, and suffer. Etc. And when he is but a snuff flame of a human being. Indignify him by locking him up and letting him starve to death.

[HoreTore]

Quite an ordeal his children had to go through, I feel for them. Still, I am surprised that the other children would just watch him rape their mother/sister without stopping him, since he must have gone down there alone. Afterall, they must have been capable of stopping a 73 year old guy.

Stockholm syndrome, threats, etc etc...

Remember, the kids have probably never been outside that basement, the 73-year old is everything they know...

[Incongruous]

We need to deal with these people like the English did Edward II, we don't want to kill him immediately. I want him to suffer, and suffer, and suffer, and suffer, and suffer, and suffer. Etc. And when he is but a snuff flame of a human being. Indignify him by locking him up and letting him starve to death.

What the hell?

He is obviously mad, and does not/cannot function within social boundaries.
I'm not victimizing him, because it's the truth with nutters like this guy, they cannot help it unless there is some intervention by others. What he did is disgusting, as is his mind, but he is still human and is suffering a very human condition.
Killing or torturing him to death is just as disgusting as his crime, except we are not insane, so perhaps it's worse?

[Lemur]

This is the first news story I've ever read that was so horrific it gave me a nightmare. Egads, we all turn into such wimps once we have kids. Well, at least, some of us do. This guy stayed the same sick ***** he'd always been.

[Adrian II]

Stockholm syndrome, threats, etc etc...Indeed. The Kampusch girl has posthumously forgiven her captor and she even says she pities him - as in pitiful, not pathetic. It may or may not be a good idea to let her talk to the Fritzl women, but I guess it shows that the ambiguity of the victim can considerably prolong the crime.

@ Lemur, sorry to hear that. I never have nightmares, but yeah, if I did this would be the stuff of them.

[naut]

The wife must be just as mad, never noticing. Bollox. And what about the neighbours and local shopowners, surely something would have been noticed by them since he'd have to buy a heck of a lot of food, etcetera.

[Sigurd]

I just have to distance me from this... I might go insane.
Just the thought of the possibility of other similar cases not discovered in this world, turns my stomack.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Well, it seems like the results are in (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7373689.stm), and he is indeed the father.


Officials have said Mr Fritzl faces up to 15 years in prison if he is eventually convicted on charges of rape and sequestration.

I know he's 74, so it doesn't really matter that much, but does that seem a bit of a light sentence, or is it just me?

[LittleGrizzly]

Im usually pretty light on sentencing (or my opinions on sentencing are) but 15 years for what he did over 24 years ?!

He should get more than 15 just for crimes against his daughter let alone what he did to "thier" kids

[Vladimir]

It's a European thing. You should know that BKS.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Well, I'm no lawyer, but I'd assume that he'd be facing multiple counts of false imprisonment, which I thought was a pretty serious crime?

[Rhyfelwyr]

And don't sentences get cut short for good behaviour? So this guy could be out in mabye 10 years?

Give credit where its due, the Yanks would deal with this man properly.

[LittleGrizzly]

Thinking on it shouldn't this man be in a mental institute until the end of his days..... i find it hard to believe this man isn't insane....

[Vladimir]

Thinking on it shouldn't this man be in a mental institute until the end of his days..... i find it hard to believe this man isn't insane....

I wonder how his daughter is.

[Adrian II]

It's a European thing. You should know that BKS.It's an Austrian thing. And DPA says they will want to put him away for life.


Wien (dpa) - Jahrzehntelang hielt er seine Kinder in einem dunklen Keller-Verlies gefangen, nun kommt der geständige Inzest-Vater Josef Fritzl vermutlich selbst nie wieder frei.
Dem 73-Jährigen werden nach Auskunft der Staatsanwaltschaft St. Pölten vom Dienstag Vergewaltigung, sexueller Missbrauch und Freiheitsberaubung vorgeworfen. Auf schwere Freiheitsberaubung und Vergewaltigung stehen in Österreich zusammen insgesamt 25 Jahre Gefängnis. Medienberichten zufolge prüft die Staatsanwaltschaft auch den Vorwurf des Mordes durch unterlassene Hilfeleistung im Falle des nach der Geburt gestorbenen Zwillings. Möglicherweise verbringt Fritzl den Rest seines Lebens hinter Gittern.That's 25 years for rape and deprivation of freedom, plus life for wrongful death.

[Vladimir]

It's an Austrian thing. And DPA says they will want to put him away for life.


Wien (dpa) - Jahrzehntelang hielt er seine Kinder in einem dunklen Keller-Verlies gefangen, nun kommt der geständige Inzest-Vater Josef Fritzl vermutlich selbst nie wieder frei.
Gegen den 73-Jährigen wird nach Auskunft der Staatsanwaltschaft St. Pölten vom Dienstag auch wegen Mordes durch Unterlassen ermittelt. Zudem werden ihm Vergewaltigung, sexueller Missbrauch und Freiheitsberaubung vorgeworfen. Möglicherweise verbringt Fritzl den Rest seines Lebens hinter Gittern.

And Dutch and German...

[Viking]

And don't sentences get cut short for good behaviour? So this guy could be out in mabye 10 years?

Give credit where its due, the Yanks would deal with this man properly.

A capital mistake it is indeed to allow a state to deprive innhabitants of life.

[Adrian II]

And Dutch and German...Eh? :dizzy2:

[spmetla]

He imprisoned his daughter and other children/grandchildren for 24 years and he might get 15?!?! Where is his 24 years to life? :furious3:

[Adrian II]

He imprisoned his daughter and other children/grandchildren for 24 years and he might get 15?!?! Where is his 24 years to life? :furious3:Hello-hoo (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1906618&postcount=52)... :balloon2:

[Oleander Ardens]

Well the Austrian juridical system just allows for punishment for the gravest charge. It has both merits and shortfalls. This case shows cleary what can be wrong with it.

Both grave delicts were committed in Northeast Austria, a part of Austria I'm not familiar with. Generally spoken there is a clear West-East difference within Austria.

Actually I hate to read about crime. But in this case it is almost impossible not to come in touch with it. Terrible. My thoughts go first of all to the mother and her children. May they have a real life now, under the beauty of the sky.

OA

[spmetla]

Hello-hoo (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1906618&postcount=52)... :balloon2:

I don't know how I missed that. :shame: Thanks!

[Papewaio]

I thought someone would notice the food but then I thought:

A) If he buys at more then one large supermarket they aren't going to recognise him.
B) How many checkout chicks do I know? None. And I shop fairly regularly at about half a dozen large supermarkets (specials, time of day, milk & bread vs laundry vs a large batch of groceries).
C) Apparently he has several properties... so he could have claimed to be out working them to his wife.

This was an interesting part in the news:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/dungeon-family-meets/2008/04/30/1209234894378.html


Franz Polzer, head of the Lower Austrian Bureau of Criminal Affairs, said there was "no evidence" indicating that Fritzl's wife, Rosemarie, knew what was going on or was involved.

Polzer also said records show that Fritzl had no criminal past dating beyond 15 years, adding that the statute of limitations would apply to any earlier offences. But he would not elaborate.

So he might have a criminal past, but it isn't allowed to be mentioned.

[HoreTore]

I know he's 74, so it doesn't really matter that much, but does that seem a bit of a light sentence, or is it just me?

That's the problem; there are no law against "locking your daughter up for 24 years and abusing her sexually". Who would have thought of people doing such things?

So the best we've got is a rape-charge... Although, he might be charged with murder due to the twin who died, since he kept him away from proper medical assistance. Also, he may be charged with murder if the 19-year old who is in the hospital now dies.

EDIT: Dang, beaten by Adrian

[KrooK]

Hmm I wonder what jail sentence he could be given.
Does anybody know Austrian penal code?
Here it would given be not more than 15 years in total.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Apparently he boasted to a neighbour that his house "would go down in history". And there was footage of him at some Christmas celebration or something. Apparently he ran his house like a dictatorship, and had a system to release poisonous gas if his prisoners tried to escape.

[Adrian II]

Apparently he ran his house like a dictatorship, and had a system to release poisonous gas if his prisoners tried to escape.This thing is getting more and more bizarre. Apparently neighbours and visitors were aware of what went on in the house. It even appears that daughter Elisabeth once escaped to Vienna, but the police brought her back.

Come again?... :dizzy2:

The Times
May 3, 2008

A lodger who once lived in Josef Fritzl’s House of Horrors claimed yesterday that he had known that the Austrian electrician was sexually abusing his daughter Elisabeth.

Sepp Leitner, who lived in Mr Fritzl’s house for four years in the early 1980s, said in a television interview that a female neighbour had told him that her friend Elisabeth had been raped by her father.

According to Mr Leitner, the neighbour even helped Elisabeth to run away to Vienna but the teenager was tracked down by police and brought back to Amstetten at her father’s behest. “Elisabeth was repeatedly raped by her father. She could not take it to live at home anymore and tried to escape,” Mr Leitner told the Austrian private television channel ATV.

“She had taken sleeping pills and went to Vienna. But the police found her and they, or her father, brought her back home.” Mr Leitner did not explain why he and the unnamed neighbour failed to alert the police about Elisabeth’s plight, though he hinted darkly at their fear of the landlord’s “revenge”. Mr Leitner said that he was still tormented by nightmares.

The Fritzl home in Amstetten is full of mysteries. It is a physical labyrinth that mirrors the convoluted plans, frustrations and desires inside Mr Fritzl’s mind. Sausage, fresh milk and cheese, for example, would disappear overnight from the fridges of the tenants rather as if the little people from The Borrowers were foraging for titbits.

The real reason was that Mr Fritzl would use his master key to slip into the tenants’ flats to pilfer provisions for Elisabeth and their three children. That was on the days when he did not have time for a shopping expedition. “I took care of them all,” Mr Frizl told police in his first (and only) interrogation. “I meant well.”

The rest of the family probably sees things differently. This man stole the childhood of at least three of his children – one of whom is still fighting for her life in hospital – lied to and manipulated the others, and raped and humilated his own daughter for a quarter of a century.

The sheer relief of the reunited Fritzl family, sheltered in a clinic, tells its own story: they have all been living in fear, and that fear is now subsiding. Mr Fritzl’s dark, hidden life seems to have been – in his mind alone – steered by a twisted love for his daughter Elisabeth, whom he called Liesel.

He started to abuse her when she was 11, in 1977. She was a pale, proud red-haired girl, the only child not to bow to her father’s snarling, changing moods. Her elder siblings kept their heads down, vowed to get married and leave the house as quickly as possible.

Their mother, Rosemarie, seemed not to notice that there was something odd in the tense, bickering relationship. The following year Mr Fritzl successfully sought building permission to extend his cellar and make a bunker that could resist nuclear fallout. Was there already a plan to imprison his daughter?

Elisabeth started to run away from home – once to Vienna, as the lodger suggests – and was beaten when she returned. At 16 she left home to work as a waitress and live in a hostel. Either because he was afraid of her betraying the sex secret, or because he couldn’t stand to lose her, Mr Fritzl decided that she should disappear. The calculating part of the Fritzl mind came again into play: he waited until she was 18 before drugging and handcuffing her. At this age she became just another adult missing person.

The abduction seems then to have been about control – breaking the will of a daughter who defied him. Mr Fritzl had reportedly raped before but sexual possession appears to have been only part of the equation. Part of him became engrossed in the mechanics of deception. Most of his ruses would not have worked in other societies but were enough to fool the Austrian bureaucracy.

He persuaded the community that Elisabeth had joined a Satanic sect and that over a decade she had dumped three children on his doorstep. When asked about her he would shrug and say that Interpol was on the case. “When Elisabeth’s third child was laid at the door we asked Sepp [Fritzl’s nickname] if maybe he shouldn’t try to find out about this sect,” says Christine R, sister of Rosemarie. “His answer was: ‘No point’. His word was law.”

Below stairs the signs suggest that he was beginning to see Elisabeth more as a lover. On his Thailand holiday in 1998 a video showed him buying a dress for a slim woman. “My secret girlfriend,” he told his travelling companion, “Don’t tell the wife.” Throughout the ordeal, Elisabeth probably drew her strength from her maternal instinct, her readiness to defy her torturer to protect her children.

There were times when Mr Fritzl did not need much persuading; he dutifully took her shopping lists and ultimately agreed to let her out of the dungeon to shield their critically ill 19-year-old daughter. Now Josef Fritzl is sharing a small prison cell with a man accused of attempted murder. He enjoyed an hour’s walk in the sun-dappled exercise yard – an incomparably more privileged existence than he allowed his captive family.

[KukriKhan]

“I took care of them all,” Mr Frizl told police in his first (and only) interrogation. “I meant well.”

Yanno, I bet he sincerely believes that. It just goes to shows how banal, how seemingly commonplace, normal-looking, evil is.

He really only had to make one crucial decision and act on it ("When she runs away, she's in danger; I shall make it so she cannot run away again.") Subsequent decisions, like keeping her locked up indefinately, impregnating her, spinning her disappearance story, etc., were merely routine follow-ups to the original one. Then one day he wakes up and *poof* 24 years has passed.

Fascinating, what the human spirit can conceive (on his part) and what it can endure (or her and her children's part).

[Adrian II]

Sumtin strange in the neighborhood
Who you gonna call?
Well, nobody really, - I mean, I thought it was somehow out of the ordinary - but he seemed such a nice man, I mean he went to Church, he had a lovely Hausfrau so if she didn't ring the alarm why should I and his father and mine knew each other from way back when they served-in-Russia-never-mind-on-whose-behalf-cause-were-Austrian, and --

:smg:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Yanno, I bet he sincerely believes that. It just goes to shows how banal, how seemingly commonplace, normal-looking, evil is.

Absolutely.

Deborah Orr made a chilling observation in this piece (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/deborah-orr/deborah-orr-josef-fritzl--the-man-that-still-lurked-in-the-monster-818675.html) that removes him from bestial to something recognisable and all the more terrible.


I think, conversely, that the astonishing, frightening thing about this dismal, unbelievable narrative is that Josef Fritzl let the world know himself what he had been up to, for the normal, paternal reason that one of his daughters was dangerously ill. It's that germ, that sliver, of everyday paternal instinct that must surely have survived all along somewhere in his flamboyantly abnormal psyche, that is the most scary thing of all. His monstrousness was not so complete that no humanity, no sympathy, no understanding of the sacredness of the life of his child remained. However strong the desire to brand this man's evil unique, the sucker punch is that he is human, all too human.

:shame:

[Adrian II]

However strong the desire to brand this man's evil unique, the sucker punch is that he is human, all too human.I'm afraid KukriKhan or the columnist are right. Such statements won't stop other posters from detailing what they would like to do to various body parts of Fritzl before they shot his head off, but rage or vindictive fantasies do not stop the next Fritzl. This is like a micro-version of politics: you can't change man himself, but you can try to change his social arrangements to the point where such sociopaths are checked in time and certain forms of abuse are prevented. And when it turns out that some of the the neighbours knew and that visitors knew and that the police knew or coulda/shoulda known, there is clearly something very rotten in Amstetten that transcends the clouded mind of Mr Fritzl.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Sounds to me like his lodgers knew damned fine something badly wrong was going on. And yet these relatively 'normal' people never did anything about it. :no:

You don't need to be Jessica Fletcher to solve this one. One lodger said he heard scratching and grunts coming from the Bunker. Fritzl had to raid his own neighbours house just for food. Mystery children appearing on the doorstep, with a missing daughter registered as a missing person.

And it is disturbing that the Austrian authorities could be so incredibly stupid to send Fritzl's daughter back to him. There is something seriously wrong in that country. Seemed like a nice place when I was there last summer as well. :shame:

[Adrian II]

Seemed like a nice place when I was there last summer as well. :shame:And it is. Every country has its peculiarities and defaults, doesn't mean it isn't a nice place. Belgium is a nice place despite Dutroux, the U.S. despite Jeffrey Dahmer. Heck, France despite Sarkozy. :wink2:

[Samurai Waki]

I'm afraid KukriKhan or the columnist are right. Such statements won't stop other posters from detailing what they would like to do to various body parts of Fritzl before they shot his head off, but rage or vindictive fantasies do not stop the next Fritzl.

My Statement for example is more of an outrage rather than a logical solution. While I would like to do certain things to this man... I know that it wouldn't actually help the situation any, I just have the Medieval Mindset (like most people) when they are confronted with a situation that cannot be easily resolved, extermination. However, as I am not a mentally ill pedophile and rapist, I do have difficulty seeing the situation from his perspective, and I believe that further insight into what causes these "problems" need to be observed and rectified, and therefore outright destruction will only hinder the cause.

[Adrian II]

My Statement for example is more of an outrage rather than a logical solution. While I would like to do certain things to this man... I know that it wouldn't actually help the situation any, I just have the Medieval Mindset (like most people) when they are confronted with a situation that cannot be easily resolved, extermination. However, as I am not a mentally ill pedophile and rapist, I do have difficulty seeing the situation from his perspective, and I believe that further insight into what causes these "problems" need to be observed and rectified, and therefore outright destruction will only hinder the cause.Well, I totally agree, both with the primary reflex and the secundary consideration. The Fritzls, like the Dahmers, are out of reach, either because they don't realise what they are doing or because they don't fear death. I am inclined to think that, given the inevitable presence of such characters among us, we shouldn't concentrate on the question what makes them trick so much as on the question what makes them go undetected and/or unchecked - for the sad truth is they often are detected (or at least suspected) by private citizens at an early stage.

[Samurai Waki]

Sadly, it seems that such situations may not be controllable, but simply something we will just have to wait for. If we can detect or check up on such people, I think it would also be an invasion of some our most primal freedoms. As far as guys like Dahmer and Fritzl go, there are too many people with too many problems, and like it or not they exist maybe if only to remind us that we need to keep a careful watch of what goes on around us. Some people you instinctively know to stay far and away from, and many of us will just have to play damage control when the storm hits. You hope such situations never happen to your brood, and as long as you don't completely ignore the threats nothing should happen. But sometimes the situation is uncontrollable and has to be approached as thus.

[KukriKhan]

...Somehow, despite all we understand of human history and its catalogue of barbarity, still going on, right now, this minute, between sects, between tribes, between ethnicities, between nations, between factions, between families, between genders, between fathers and mothers and sisters and brothers, we all still like to think that we as individuals are something akin to the Dalai Lama, wreathed in the absurd "knowledge" of our own, and humanity's, inherent goodness and gentleness.

That is my big take-away from Ms. Orr's article: We all know of Darfur, Baghdad, Bosnia, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Dahmer's apartment, the Amstsetten cellar, and so on, and so on, from the past, and, likely, into the future.

A lesson to be learnt is: such things will continue to happen, so we should be vigilant; but, that's only the secondary lesson, in my opinion.

The primary lesson is: it could be me.

I don't mean the victim, though that's statistically more likely. I mean the perpetrator. At any given point in time, given the proper circumstance, any one of us - I - despite the fact that "...we all still like to think that we as individuals are something akin to the Dalai Lama, wreathed in the absurd "knowledge" of our own, and humanity's, inherent goodness and gentleness...." am fully capable of denying life and/or liberty to one or more other humans. If a Dahmer or a Fritzl is possible at all, then it's also possible that I am Dahmer, I am Frtizl, in some future scenario that seems to make sense to me at the time, no matter that it contradicts everything I've thought about me for decades.

That is what we guard against first, I think: our own individual capacity for evil. Whether we get them from religion, social studies, or whatever, we (individually) must construct a set of absolute guidlines to follow for when times are tough, and events fast and furious and out-of-control. "Life is sacred", might be one (it is for me).

I didn't mean to preach. Sorry about that. :bow: It's just that in amongst the "Ain't it awful" and "String 'im up" talk - which is understandable, we ought to also think about our own humanity, our own capacity to do good and evil.

[Adrian II]

A lesson to be learnt is: such things will continue to happen, so we should be vigilant; but, that's only the secondary lesson, in my opinion.
The primary lesson is: it could be me.I totally understand your line of thought and although I am not at all shocked or even offended by it, I have to say it just doesn't feel right. Not because I feel I am miraculously immune to depravity, but because somehow I know I will never be that depraved.

Of course there is little evidence to support any such statement, but I think we have food for thought in a meta-study done on the 1962 Milgram obedience experiment and later, similar obedience experiments.

No doubt you recall the Milgram experiment in which two-thirds of test subjects were prepared to deal the 'victim' a lethal 450 Volt shock. In 2002 psychologist Thomas Blass performed a statistical meta-analysis on this and similar experiments and found the two-thirds obedience rate to be constant, regardless of place, time, gender &cetera.

Somehow, I flatter myself by thinking I belong to one third that refuses to pull the switch.

[TB666]

Sounds to me like his lodgers knew damned fine something badly wrong was going on. And yet these relatively 'normal' people never did anything about it. :no:

You don't need to be Jessica Fletcher to solve this one. One lodger said he heard scratching and grunts coming from the Bunker. Fritzl had to raid his own neighbours house just for food. Mystery children appearing on the doorstep, with a missing daughter registered as a missing person.
It is indeed scary that these people didn't dare to report it since as you say, they knew something wrong was going on.

And it is disturbing that the Austrian authorities could be so incredibly stupid to send Fritzl's daughter back to him. There is something seriously wrong in that country. Seemed like a nice place when I was there last summer as well. :shame:
There might not have been evidence that he abused her at the time.
For all they knew it could just have been a runaway kid that needs to be brought back to her family.
If there was evidence of rape then I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have brought her back.
While I don't doubt for a second that the policemen/woman that brought her back are at the moment feeling extremely bad about themselfs since they could have stopped it, but that's with hindsight which they didn't have at the time.

And I must disagree with newspapers calling him "the monster". Seriously, pretty much every newspaper I checked here in Sweden, Denmark and Norway call him that.
Yes what he did was one of the sickest things I have ever heard and I can't even begin to imagine the hell the daughter and her children have gone though since it just so damn extreme.
But he is not a monster. He is a father, husband and son and a human just like the rest of us.
During the right circumstances(or wrong) we can easily turn into this man.
Do not forget it, instead learn from it so that we can prevent others from the same hell the daughter went through.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Of course there is little evidence to support any such statement, but I think we have food for thought in a meta-study done on the 1962 Milgram obedience experiment and later, similar obedience experiments.

No doubt you recall the Milgram experiment in which two-thirds of test subjects were prepared to deal the 'victim' a lethal 450 Volt shock. In 2002 psychologist Thomas Blass performed a statistical meta-analysis on this and similar experiments and found the two-thirds obedience rate to be constant, regardless of place, time, gender &cetera.

Somehow, I flatter myself by thinking I belong to one third that refuses to pull the switch.

I happen to be reading "The Lucifer Effect" by Philip Zimbardo, designer of the Stanford Prison experiment and an essay reflecting on this as information for situations like Abu Ghraib.

I think he has a powerful argument when attributing situational impact rather than dispositional to the evil that otherwise "normal" people do. I suspect that if one factors in the situational pressures, even that one third diminishes into negligible fraction of people that can go against the prevailing peer demands. Clearly this does not apply in the Fritzl case, but to this tangent.

I used to believe (or hope, perhaps) that I might be in that third too. But I know how close I have come to torturing/allowing the torture of an individual within a situation wherein my peers expected it, and only managed to control myself and the people I was responsible for by appealing to a very clear code of military conduct - one that at core, was rooted in the same conventions and laws that I had always held dear.

Since then, I have also read an insightful analysis of the psychology of a man I (strangely perhaps) admire - Maximilien Robespierre. I recognise myself in the idealist driven to utter barbarity for a belief apparently rooted in reason. I suspect that were I caught up in those heady times, surrounded by fervour for a future so perfect and so newly real, I might too dance with Madame Guillotine in the pale moonlight.

This is what I think Kukri is alluding to - I have seen myself in that mirror and not recognised the eyes unblinking back. He is not a demon I care to meet again, but I know he is there, somewhere.

[Adrian II]

This is what I think Kukri is alluding to - I have seen myself in that mirror and not recognised the eyes unblinking back. He is not a demon I care to meet again, but I know he is there, somewhere.Same here, but I've got him covered.

I believe KukriKhan was not alluding to situations of extreme pressure, like war, a violent crime scene or prolonged systematic abuse. For most perpetrators of crimes of such truly sickening proportions, there was no situational pressure at all except for the pressures of illegality which they created themselves.

All that Fritzl seems to have by way of an excuse is that in his early youth he appears to have been abused by his dominant single mother, though whether this abuse was of a sexual nature I cannot gauge from the Austrian papers. Even so, most victims of such abuse do not turn on their children, let alone in this gruesome way. In Fritzl's case there was no discernable situational pressure at all.

[Husar]

I know what you mean Kukri.

I'm aware of my inner Fritzl and I think that helps me keep him right there inside.

[Samurai Waki]

As long as the demon stays there, it should only ever serve as a reminder that you are human. I've allowed my wife to see some of the darker depths of my soul, and although no harm ever came to anyone, it frightened her to the very core. Apparently when I'm not in a good mood, my presence is chilling to say the least, and that was a comment from an ex-con who served five years in prison when I was doing a study case in college last semester. I think its the hair... :laugh4:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmmm, I don't think I have an inner Fritzl.

As for the Milgram experiment, I'd stop as soon as I heard the learner was in pain. The whole situation would surely seem a bit suspicious.

But if it was a terrorist who knew where a bomb was about to go off, then I'd zap the crap out of him.

[edyzmedieval]

To be honest, I wouldn't treat him as a normal human being. I sometimes still prefer the old dictatorships.

My word? 20 lashes, stop for 5 seconds then put lime/salt, 20 lashes again, salt/lime again, 20 lashes again, salt lime again. After like 30 minutes, put im into his cell, no food and just half a liter of water and then let him rot there.

I'm a real psycho, but seriously, I hardly believe this guy didn't have any feelings. As psycho-maniac as you can be, you have your own natural paternal instincts which dominate over other personality/mind traits.

[Samurai Waki]

To be honest, I wouldn't treat him as a normal human being. I sometimes still prefer the old dictatorships.

My word? 20 lashes, stop for 5 seconds then put lime/salt, 20 lashes again, salt/lime again, 20 lashes again, salt lime again. After like 30 minutes, put im into his cell, no food and just half a liter of water and then let him rot there.

I'm a real psycho, but seriously, I hardly believe this guy didn't have any feelings. As psycho-maniac as you can be, you have your own natural paternal instincts which dominate over other personality/mind traits.

Being Romanian I thought you might prefer some kind of torture more akin to a Certain Wallachian Impaler?

[Adrian II]

Hmmm, I don't think I have an inner Fritzl.I'm not asking you to make a full confession here, but I reckon if you are honest and dig deep enough, you will find his nephew, his depraved brother, his retarded neighbour or someone similar within yourself. We al have scandalous thoughts, indeed scandalous memories, of betrayal and thuggery.

There is a somewhat mystifying short story of Edgar Allan Poe, The Man of the Crowd (1840), which has the following brilliant opening paragraph:


It was well said of a certain German book that “es läßt sich nicht lesen” – it does not permit itself to be read. There are some secrets which do not permit themselves to be told. Men die nightly in their beds, wringing the hands of ghostly confessors, and looking them piteously in the eyes – die with despair of heart and convulsion of throat, on account of the hideousness of mysteries which will not suffer themselves to be revealed. Now and then, alas, the conscience of man takes up a burthen so heavy in horror that it can be thrown down only into the grave. And thus the essence of all crime is undivulged.It's widely available on the Web, just Google for it.

[Papewaio]

What is more amazing is the lack of people willing to stand up and stop it happening. Apparently some of the tenants had an inkling of what was happening but preferred to keep their lodgings.

I'd like to cast stones and say this is an Austrian thing and it is part and parcel why fascism was allowed to rise in post WWI Germany. It would be easier on my ego. But the reality is this is a very real problem in all of modern society not just small towns. People lack empathy for others in very shocking ways, and the only shocking thing is that they scream out when it happens to them 'Why me?'.

It doesn't matter what the laws are if the people refuse to act on their own conscience. And it doesn't matter how active people are if they are actively suppressing that conscience. See No Evil, Say No Evil, Hear No Evil... just as long as it doesn't touch me. Solidarity for me, myself and I.

[cegorach]

According to Austrian sources the man was earlier imprisoned for a rape and suspected of arson.

I am not sure if anyone mentioned it already.




It appears we have another shocking incident, this time in Germany.

Three baby bodies were found in a freezer, somewhere in Wenden, Germany.

I suspect we will see a number of such cases recalled or discovered right now.

Perhaps it will serve some better purpose than to increase circulation of tabloid press after all.
Maybe some people will, for a while at least, care what is going on in the neighbourhood.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Perhaps it will serve some better purpose than to increase circulation of tabloid press after all.
Maybe some people will, for a while at least, care what is going on in the neighbourhood.

Oh, it appears that lots of people care (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/catastrophe-tourists-descend-on-austrian-house-of-horrors-821133.html) all of a sudden. :shame:


"These people are using Amstetten's proximity to Austria's main motorway to make a detour to the house where they indulge in what I call catastrophe tourism," she said. "I find this shocking and I do not understand their motivation. It shows no respect for the victims."

[cegorach]

Bloody voltures...


What next ?

'Welcome to the Austrian House of Horrors ! See the torture chamber, perfectly recreated Hitler's bedroom and the room where mad duke Rudolph ate livers of his victims while writing poems about autumn weather.
Only 1 EURO ! Special offer for families with children !'
Josef the Rapist keyrings only 20 cents !


or maybe:

'Call Josef a weekly talk show - live from Austrian prison !'

:shame: :shame:

[cegorach]

I have just checked at the news portal TVN24.


Police revealed the information that the guy started planning to imprison his daughter before he built the house where he kept her and her children.

So it was even better prepared than what we knew before and harder for anyone to find out.

[TB666]

Oh, it appears that lots of people care (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/catastrophe-tourists-descend-on-austrian-house-of-horrors-821133.html) all of a sudden. :shame:


"These people are using Amstetten's proximity to Austria's main motorway to make a detour to the house where they indulge in what I call catastrophe tourism," she said. "I find this shocking and I do not understand their motivation. It shows no respect for the victims."
Not surprising.
Should atleast charge them and give the money to the victims.
But the info by the police that slowly gets to know more and more what have happened down there is just sick.
Just get worse and worse.
Doesn't matter how much people wanna torture the father, it won't bring Elizabeth's wasted life back or make her memories of the bunker go away.

[Vladimir]

Being Romanian I thought you might prefer some kind of torture more akin to a Certain Wallachian Impaler?

Oy! 'at's me jub! :whip:

[edyzmedieval]

Being Romanian I thought you might prefer some kind of torture more akin to a Certain Wallachian Impaler?

Too kind. They would just throw the guy in those stakes and he would probably die immediately or in maximum 1 hour because of wounds. So it's a pretty nice death.

How's about almost 48 hours of pain? If 1 hour is one year, he'd get more than double of what he did to his daughter. And the other 24 years are for even thinking that monstrous thing of locking and raping your daughter.

[Husar]

Yes, go on, let your inner Fritzl speak. :sweatdrop:

[Viking]

Too kind. They would just throw the guy in those stakes and he would probably die immediately or in maximum 1 hour because of wounds. So it's a pretty nice death.

How's about almost 48 hours of pain? If 1 hour is one year, he'd get more than double of what he did to his daughter. And the other 24 years are for even thinking that monstrous thing of locking and raping your daughter.

Trying to best Fritzl, are you? :idea2:

[Samurai Waki]

Too kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement

It seems Vlad the Impaler was a more wicked man than you. :laugh4:

[atheotes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement

It seems Vlad the Impaler was a more wicked man than you. :laugh4:

:book:

After suitable preparation of the victim, including public torture and rape, the victim was stripped and an incision was made in the groin between the genitals and rectum. A stout pole with a blunt end was inserted.

think abt it :sweatdrop:

[Adrian II]

There is an interesting article on Sp!ked that does a good job of 'de-Austrianizing' the case of freaky Fritzl and warns that we shouldn't go off on a Fritzl-hunt and give in to contemporaneous worries that everything that happens 'behind closed doors' is suspect and requires close formal and informal supervision.


In truth, there are not Josef Fritzls lurking everywhere. If Austrians do not ‘assume the worst in others’, that is a good thing. And if they feel alienated or dislocated from their neighbours and fellow citizens, then they are by no means alone: that is a common experience in the Western world today. One thing is certain, though: encouraging greater suspicion of our friends, neighbours and fellow bus travellers on the basis that any one of them might be a Fritzl will do nothing to heighten community solidarity – but it will do a lot to spread fear and doubt and, most likely, to encourage a hands-off attitude to other, potentially dangerous people.

Clickety (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5045/)