Missiles in front or behind ?

[Magraev]

I'd like to get your opinion about placing missile troops. The reason is, that most posters seem to be doing the opposite of what I do (and did in S:TW).

I always put missiles before my main infantry line in a loose formation. Usually this is arbalesters but any archer/xbow gets shoved in front. If I have a lot of archers I might make two lines with xbows in front of bowmen.

I usually get some disruption of the line as the enemy approaches with cavalry/camels, but then I charge through the line with my infantry, and reform the line quickly behind them.

Which method is most effective? is it A) shooters in front of infantry or B) infantry in front of shooters? your votes please http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Daevyll]

It depends whether I defend or attack.
When defending I usually put them behind the main line, up on a hill with spear-armed troops in front and sword armed troops on the flanks or behind as a reserve.

When attacking, they walk in front so as to try and force the enemy to either take the missile casualties or come and get them, thereby abandoning their position.

Of course these are just two stereotypes, their actual use depends on the flow of battle and the exact terrain obviously.

[Wart]

Magraev
I'm with you mate!
Missles in front to start with, in loose formation:
a) So they soak up enemy missle fire, rather than it being directed at my HTH troops. After all the missles become less useful once melee starts, so I prefer loosing a few of them, rather than combat troops
b) So the enemy take more fire before they are able to target my HTHers. Though having said that I usually shoot at HTH units and ignore their missle troops.
c) I HATE getting friendly fire!

Like you, I then charge through them/they skirmish back, then I have them fire from behind the battle line at incoming units

I do put missles behind sometimes on defense, but not often.

TBH, I think it's just a playing style thing. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 10-16-2002).]

[Rosacrux]

a rather interesting variant is when one has decent archers (longbows, b.brigands, treb. archers) and crossbows or arbalesters. When on the defense (you guys go on the offensive with immobile archers?) I draw three main lines: In the first the crossbows-arbalests. In the second the foot units and in the third the archers.

works like a charm.

[de la Valette]

Always behind. This way you get constant fire (no interuption when your H2H pass through). Also the armour rating is generally better for spear troops than missile and they have a shield so loses to the few archers who survive my missile attacks are fewer this way (in my opinion)

[Magraev]

Hi guys

Thanks for the quick and interesting replies.

I agree with you Wart - it's a playstyle thing. And remember that missile units in loose formation will loose less troops than a melee unit in close formation.

I wonder if it could somehow be determined what's most effective.

[de la Valette]

But in loose formation they make a nice long ungainly line to be charged down by light cav.

Also doesn't loose significantly reduce the number of kills per volley?

[Magraev]

Loose formations means about half as many ppl on the line firing at the same time so the wolley will be weaker (they'll last twice as long though).

To defend your archers from cav you have spearmen right behind you and your own cav behind that. That said I do rarely lose a unit if a cav gets to chase my archers into a corner without my noticing in the general mayhem.

[Wart]

Quote Originally posted by de la Valette:
But in loose formation they make a nice long ungainly line to be charged down by light cav.

Also doesn't loose significantly reduce the number of kills per volley?[/QUOTE]

As far as your first point goes, thats the general idea! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Normally my spears will be hitting the cav just after the cav has hit my archers (when timed right!)
Also to avoid the long line problem I never go 2 deep- I usually go 3, sometimes 4 deep, depending on the situation.

As to the reduction in kills per volley, don't know, never really noticed, or tested to see if this is the case. I guess at long range it will mean that less guys will be in range, but again, having more rows should help with this I think. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Puzz3D]

I did test this in STW on flat ground, and there were definitely fewer total kills by an archer shooting from behind a friendly unit than from one shooting with an unobstructed line of sight. I guess you can have unobstructed line of sight from behind a unit if they are on a downhill slope. Also, archers in a double row do a little better than archers in a triple row in close formation. In loose, the triple row is just as effective, but the men in the back row won't shoot until the target get's within their range. So, you have to get a little closer to the target for maximum firepower if that's what you want.

Taking losses in a ranged unit does not reduce the ammo, but will reduce the number of projectiles fired per volley. This is important when dueling with another ranged unit, bur less important if shooting at a target that's not shooting back. Generally, I don't like to have my hth infantry being shot up by ranged units.

[AgentBif]

I put pavise units up front to absorb enemy missiles. Then I put spears behind them ready to charge forward if the enemy attacks the pavise guys. I always keep my more expensive longbows behind infantry to protect them.

bif

[Orda Khan]

Do archers actually kill anything here? From what I've seen they are a unit to be ignored until the h2h is over then chase them from the map. Perhaps those Eastern archers were more accurate but in STW at least they were worth the money

.........Orda

------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Coucy]

Quote Originally posted by Magraev:
Which method is most effective? is it A) shooters in front of infantry or B) infantry in front of shooters? your votes please http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/B][/QUOTE]

Neither. What I've been trying lately is C) archers in Wedge formation, with the Wedges placed in and behind the natural spaces between the infantry line formations.

The idea is to get the best of both worlds, protection by the infantry while somewhat clear FoF thru the gaps. Only in experimental trials right now, but seems to be working!

Coucy

[DragonCat]

For MP purposes:

As the attacker:
I put my cavalry in hold formation and charge the missle units from an oblique angle, and at the same time charge my best maa units up the middle followed by my spearmen/inf types (oof, etc.)

If he doesn't respond, my cav tears up his missle units.

If he sends out spear units, then I charge the cav AWAY and let my MAA catch the spearmen as they charge and then roll him up with my other infantry

Gotta be timed well, but works more times than you think.

I rarely lose more than a few cav. If they are in trouble, they usually rout and are recoverable once they pass back to my lines.



------------------
DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!

[Alrowan]

always in front

[Magraev]

I experimented with the same battle - once arbs in front, once behind. Two very different battles ensued.

I'm used to walking within shooting distance and then being attacked relatively quickly. The AI wasn't as eager to attack my line of sergants, but instead goaded me into charging him. I won both battles, and the extra casualties I got when fighting spears first might just be bqz of my inexperience with this style.

Conclusion: I'll keep putting shooters first in regular battles (except maybe longbowmen).

PS: I never use pavise arbalesters or crossbows with this strategy - the reason is that I'm afraid they'll be to slow to get out of the way. For the same reason I like bulgarian brigands and desert archers (they're fast).

[This message has been edited by Magraev (edited 10-17-2002).]

[Rnold]

sp: in front of my main force. usually something like this:
A = archers
S = spearmen
T = assault troops
C = Cav.


AAA AAA AAA AAA
TTT SSS SSS SSS SSS TTT
CCC TTT CCC

Cav. in a wedge formation, archers on skirmish, spear on hold, assault troops engage at will. works for me.

[Rnold]

mmm.... where have the spaces gone?
- = space

--- AAA AAA AAA AAA ---
TTT SSS SSS SSS SSS TTT
CCC ----- TTT ----- CCC

[Magraev]

Rnold - that looks very much/exactly like my setup. Sometimes I'll have cav enough to put one on each wing (used to flank and eventually start the chain-rout). Always keep a cav in a central position (mostly to chase annoying line-disruptors).

I never use wedge formation though - maybe I should.

[Cyricist]

Hmmm.. where is the general's unit in all of this... I usually set up quite similar when attacking, with HGC being Heavy Calvalry (General):

--- AAA AAA AAA AAA --- FRONT
TTT SSS SSS SSS SSS TTT
CCC ----- HGC ----- CCC BACK

Once the fighting starts and the faeces hits the fan (or rather the archers start shooting at the enemy's front) I move move spears through their lines and attack in melee as well as from range, opening up oppertunities for my assault troops and cavalry along the way...

When Defending:

SSS SSS SSS SSS
TTT AAA AAA TTT
HGC AAA AAA CCC CCC

During defense I like to keep at least one unit of cavalry hidden somewhere if possible, to strike out at the enemy's rear. If not possible, I locate them all on one flank, covering the archers and partially acting as shock troop if anyone breaks the spearmen.

[hrvojej]

I keep my missiles behind my troops. I guess I'm just a conservative guy. Also, the defenses are usually way too tense (4:1, e.g.) and I don't like taking chances with micromanagement then. The only missile troops I actively use are the mounted ones, and they are also the only ones I take on attacks.

ps.
Why do I keep reading the title of this thread as "Missiles in front or in behind?"? I guess the insomnia is finally catching up on me. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-17-2002).]

[Magraev]

That's just sick hrvojej.

[hrvojej]

What's sick? I keep thinking about the little Scottish feat from "Braveheart", and the "missiles in behinds". http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Daveybaby]

When Defending:
===============

---- XXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXX ----
TTTT SSSS SSSS - SSSS SSSS TTTT
CCC HHH AAAA GG AAAA HHH CCC

Where:
X = Crossbows, Preferably Pavise Arbalesters.
A = Archers
S = Spearmen/Pikemen
T = Assault Infantry
C = Light/Medium Cavalry
H = Heavy Cavalry
G = General (Heavy Cav).

The crossbows/arbs provide long term missile support (and if theyre pavise, they'll absorb a lot of enemy fire), while the archers are there to help rapidly whittle down the initial assault.

In an ideal situation you'll withdraw the archers immediately after they run out of ammo, and reinforce with either more archers (if its a VERY large enemy force) or fresh assault infantry/cavalry (for the counterattack/mopping up once the initial and secondary assaults are broken).

Note that the crossbow lines are longer because theyre pretty thinly stretched out (2 men deep). Spears are at least 4 men deep. As long as youre paying attention its no problem for the spearmen to move through the lines of X's in time to engage (if anyone makes it that far ;-) )

Best tactic : Concentrate all fire on the general if he comes close enough. If you manage to kill him (and with the help of those archers, you quite often will) then no other unit will even get within melee distance of your Xbows before routing.

When attacking:
===============
Who the hell uses archers when attacking???
Maybe a few horse archers for harrasment, but thats all. In front/behind is hardly an issue.

[This message has been edited by Daveybaby (edited 10-17-2002).]

[Rnold]

okay so that is my basic formation. of course arbalesters over archers. if i have a horsearchers i sent them far in front of my troops. preferably 4 units to stir some turmoil.

decent routers, so time enough to bring in fresh men. it is always nice to rain some arrows on enemy elite non missile units.

in my example i used 13 units. depending on the tactics of the opponent you can go for a
scythe-like movement, holding the enemies army with your spears, and using either the left or right flank to crush the enemy.
or the encircling tactics.

what's so good about encircling? the encircling army is gaining attacking strength and the encircled, defending army is losing defending strength.

[ToranagaSama]

Just curious, all of you who've described your preference, are you talking MP, SP and/or both?

Is this one of those threads, where folks can get confused reading, and possibly use the wrong tactics for the wrong style of play?

For what is worth, I keep my archers in the second line. Perfering to have my first line MAA engage the AI's front line, while using my archers to pummel the AI's second line/reserve troops; and then attempt to flank them. Get a couple of second line/reserve troops to rout and its all over, quick!

Below is my ideal SP army (so far):

Spears are on Wedge and Hold and I hold them back for primary use vs Cav and/or secondary use vs other spear units.

My General can be any unit, hopefully Knights. Experience is the determining factor. I rarely engage my general unless its a Knight unit; If he's a missle unit, I'll use him decisively.

MAA SP MAA SP MAA
MAA AR AR AR MAA
CHMAA CHMAA CHMAA
KNGTS King/Gen KNGTS

[favedave]

WEDGE FORMATION -

Be careful about using your cav in wedge formation. You lose 3 on your defense factor if you are in wedge formation.

Wedge is only good for breaking through a line to get behind them. If you attack a line of spear (preferably from the flank or behind) don't use wedge.

Also, it reduces the number of actual units you have in contact with the enemy, therefore you do less damage. Attack on as wide a front as possible to envelope the enemy. If you attack like this:

C=Cav versus
i = inf
_ = space

ccccccccc

__iiiii___
__iiiii___

then when the cav hits, it will WRAP AROUND THE ENDS OF THE INFANTRY, thereby flanking automatically. Allowing your cav to do more damage with more contact.


If you attack in a wedge:

c c
_c__c
ic__ci
iiccii
iicii

Then only half your cav unit is making contact.

This info is from the strat guide. I have found it to be true. Spread your cav out into a long double or triple column and you'll be happy with the results.