A bug with regard to \'strategic withdrawals\' ?

[Daevyll]

I maintain an army that is used for nothin but quick raids against enemy armies (playing as the Turks).

It consists of nothing but cavalry, and most of it can shoot. I attack the enemy, shoot a few arrows, perhaps charge a few isolated enemy units, and then withdraw all my troops.

The problem is, as you withdraw a unit, you see your number of soldiers decrease quickly and then disappear. However before it disappears you get the little white waving flags indicating they're routing for just a second or two. So I get a message claiming my general is a craven coward when in fact he has just fought a brilliant raid losing not a single warrior and causing lots of casualties!
I assume this is due to the fact that the soldiers are taken off individually, and then rout due to 'casualties' when 90% of them has already left the field.
Also, withdrawing your troops is seen as defeat, and reflects badly on your general (ie loss of rank, vices etc), when in actuality raiding like this is a legitimate tactic.

My solutions:

- when you withdraw units, set their morale to infinite once they reach the 'red' area where the nemy cannot follow. This would stop them from routing (I assume) when they leave the battlefield one by one.

- if you end a battle which YOU initiated (ie not defences) by withdrawing all units AND have caused casualties in a ratio of say, 5 to 1 (to prevent misuse), then dont count the battle as a loss with regard to the general commanding it; obviously it was a succesfull raid!



[This message has been edited by Daevyll (edited 09-19-2002).]

[spmetla]

Totally agree. Raids were a big part medieval warfare. Especially for the Arabs.

------------------
"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"

"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"

email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

I wish that, in addition to the "Rout" button, we also had a "Withdraw" button. The problem would be people using it to rout without penalty, but I think the computer could judge the context. For instance, if one withdraws a unit which has taken heavy losses, it routs. If one withdraws archers after they exhaust their ammo, they leave the field without penalty to valor. Also, withdrawing troops would maintain order so not suffer the morale penalty associated with the unit being broken up.

------------------
The King Who was Thursday

[Daevyll]

errr that actually exists. If you r-click on a unit button you get the 'withdraw from battle' option which is not the same as Rout.

The problem, as described above, is that the game treats soldiers from withdrawing troops that have already left the field as casualties for the unit so the last few men in a given unit _do_ rout which is a bitch.
And as also stated above an ordered withdrawal after a raid shouldnt be counted as a loss imho.

[This message has been edited by Daevyll (edited 09-19-2002).]

[Stu35]

I agree...

Not sure about the raid thing though... I think it would make more sense if CA were to include a "raid" button of some sort - but only if all the units involved are cavalry archers...

I dont think we have an idea on how complicated this would be so i would try not to push it on CA...

------------------
Stu35s MTW Site - Hints,Lists,Facts,And Porn (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mtw) (one of those is a lie)

http://www.geocities.com/wolflord_uk/stu35

Alba Gu Bragh

[Kraxis]

Yes, I have long wondered why it is so bad to retreat when you have done nobly and fought good, then when the enemy regroups you withdraw.

And raids are fun too, but I feel that I'm forced to commit all my forces.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

Oops. I don't use the right-click menu; I guess I should. Thanks for letting know, Daevyll.

------------------
The King Who was Thursday

[Dawood]

I agree, there are no strategic retreats, as it should be.

[pdoan8]

I agree that the game lack some interesting trategic/tactical element such as raid, trategic withdrawal/regroup/reposition of troops. However, here is my opinion(please correct me if I am wrong):

Raid: in my understanding, raid is a small size army which is sent into enemy/neutral territory to: rob, pillage, terrify or influence or even slaughter the population. A raid is usually conducted in the area which has no or very little garrison. The raid party must kill or at least chase away the garrison force if there are any. The raid must be done quickly and it must retreat before the enemy main force arrive to relief the area. The raid party will not commit in any major fight. Otherwise, it should be called an invasion. The raid is done so that it could gather some resources for its own side while destroying the enemy capability of producing. It is also in the purpose to disturb the population/enemy ruling of the area and try to force the enemy to either garrison with larger force (which may become a taget for an invasion) or to abandon the area (which is what you want).

In MTW, I can raid the enemy but most of the time it becomes an invasion in stead of raiding. I have to beat the garrison force, which is fairly big at the frontal provinces, or force them to retreat into the castle, in this case they will likely to starve in the castle. Then I pillage and abandon the province before the enemy force arrive in the next year.

When I invade (or raid if you want to call it a raid), I have to commit in the fight if the enemy decide they want to fight. If during the fight, I destroy some building and maybe kill some enemy troops then I withdraw. That is not a trategic withdrawal (at least as the game thinks), it's called run away from the battle field, defeat, or retreat from battle field and I should get bad result from that.

[Whitey]

don't use the right click menu, just type 'Ctrl-W' - much quicker

[JRock]

I wish Withdraw/CTRL+W actually DISENGAGED THE UNIT FROM COMBAT instead of just causing it to lose it's defense ability leaving it vulnerable and then it loses a bunch of men and some of them TRY to Withdraw/disengage, but since some of the men are still fighting, they walk BACK INTO COMBAT. ARGH!@^^$(*%%(*&@$

Yeah, so I wish it WORKED.

[hoof]

JRock, in that situation, as long as the unit isn't your general's unit, and as long as you feel it won't cause other units to rout, use the rout command instead. The men who are away from the enemy will keep going instead of stopping and running back to their deaths to try to help their friends.

You shouldn't get a vice by intentionally routing a unit, unless your general takes off with them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif (or the unit has a general in it, in the case of multi-general armies)

[CmdrSalamander]

I had a problem with the withdraw function in a battle where i needed to get some crossbowmen off the field, cause they were out of bolts, so i could get more troops, and i also wanted to send so beat up cav off too. Mostly, it worked, but two units counted down to 3 men each and then just stayed there, so i had to finish the battle with effectively 14 units. I couldn't do anything with those 3 guys, but they couldn't go away!

Also, how come all my units came onto the field with only 2 bars of energy when i called up my reinforcements... how does THAT make any sense?

And to top it off, even after all the enemy had fled the field i had to wait for the timer to run out (i was on defense).

I'd be a heck of a lot madder if i had't won...

------------------
Commander what? Salamander who?

I want Hospitallers... too bad i hate the italians.

[Forward Observer]

Quote Originally posted by CmdrSalamander:
I had a problem with the withdraw function in a battle where i needed to get some crossbowmen off the field, cause they were out of bolts, so i could get more troops, and i also wanted to send so beat up cav off too. Mostly, it worked, but two units counted down to 3 men each and then just stayed there, so i had to finish the battle with effectively 14 units. I couldn't do anything with those 3 guys, but they couldn't go away!

Also, how come all my units came onto the field with only 2 bars of energy when i called up my reinforcements... how does THAT make any sense?

And to top it off, even after all the enemy had fled the field i had to wait for the timer to run out (i was on defense).

I'd be a heck of a lot madder if i had't won...

[/QUOTE]

I had that same problem that you mention with 2 or 3 remaining troops stuck in withdraw mode. It has only happened once, and I am pretty sure it was in North Africa, but I'm not sure how to duplicate it for the developers to look at. It could have been related to a specific map.

As to your second comment, if you are fighting as any European army in the desert, there is an extra fatigue penalty for being in armor in the heat. Your troops get tired even if they are just standing, and not fighting. Unfortunately it also effects your replacement troops, so you have "already tired" new troops coming on the field.

I suspect that the reason that you had to wait until the clock ran out, was due to those same troops that were caught in the withdrawal time warp, or possibly enemy troops in the same situation.

If this withdrawal bug happens to anyone else, they should try to make note of the map or save the data for the developers. I am sure this is something that could be easily fixed.

Cheers

------------------
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 09-29-2002).]

[ToranagaSama]

Just a couple of thoughts on "raiding":

... maintain an army that is used for nothin but quick raids against enemy armies (playing as the Turks).

If you can "maintain" such an army (sounds like a FULL stack) JUST for raiding, then it doesn't seem you really NEED to "raid" the AI at all. Really, don't you have enough of an advantage vs. the AI already? IMHO, "raiding" is ONLY legitimate in the most DIRE of circumstances.

However before it disappears you get the little white waving flags indicating they're routing for just a second or two.

Well, the AI DOESN'T raid, so SHOULDN'T there be some penalty for the human?

Someone down below in the thread states that medieval raids consisted of "small" parties. Doesn't seem yours is such a small party.

Sooo, how "legitimate" is "raiding" against the AI? Against a Human player, no problem.

[CmdrSalamander]

The map I had the withdraw "time warp" glitch on was Cordoba, so i guess the computer might consider that desert, and that would explain the problem with the fatigue (with actually makes me happy since that is really cool).

I, as well, did not save the replay. If i see it again, i will.

------------------
Commander what? Salamander who?

I want Hospitallers... too bad i hate the italians.

[longjohn2]

The routing while withdrawing problem will be fixed in the patch. I guess it happened in Shogun as well, but it made no difference then.

[MajorPain]

I had the same problem with unit that dont withdraw totally. What I did was hit halt button several times till it clicked. Then I could withdraw them again. It didnt help all the time so I groupped that/those unit/s with fighting units then I could withdraw the unit that was withdrewing. But that didnt help all the time either. So in the end I had to fight with 15 units too. I dont remember where this happend but i think it was in north Africa.

------------------
STW will always be #1

[Cheetah]

PAF