Gallic Hair

[woad&fangs]

Does anyone know what the Gauls used to spike/dye their hair? I've heard it described as quicklime, lime, limewater, etc... but since lime is a base and bases melt hair(and skin for that matter:skull: ) I'm assuming they mixed it with other stuff.:book:

[Eduorius]

They also used clay, but you are right with the dangers of lime. It can make your hair fall.

[blitzkrieg80]

what? bases melt things? so what does acid do? just counteract base? :inquisitive: i am confused... methinks i need to retake chemisty ~:doh:

i've also been wondering how noble Germanic warriors with long hairstyles dealt with long hair- besides knots/braids. I am wondering if 'grease' would be used back then? It doesn't seem like that advanced of a concept...

[russia almighty]

I'd of probably been the only Germanic noble to have cut that shit off and gone bald if possible.


My ass I'm getting lice. I'd rub my head with lye to make sure nothing survives.

[bovi]

what? bases melt things? so what does acid do? just counteract base?
An acid is a molecule that when mixed with water will release a proton, creating a H3O+ molecule. These unfaithful protons can also react with a number of other materials.

Similarly, a base is a molecule that when mixed with water will absorb a proton, creating an OH- molecule. Bases also can react with a number of other materials. One of the most basic (in every sense of the word) bases is NaOH, which simply will dissolve into a Na+ ion and a OH- one, so while it won't react with the water molecules per se it will still produce a OH-.

An acid will "cancel" a base because the acid will release its proton and give it to the base, fulfilling its "desire" for the extra proton.

There are also buffer molecules, that are willing to absorb or release protons depending on the abundance of either OH- or H3O+ ions in their environment. A basic buffer is HCO3-, which is originally made up of carbonic acid (H2CO3, composed of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O)) which has released one proton. It is liable to release another proton and become CO3-- in basic environments but will absorb an extra proton and become H2CO3 in acidic environments. H2CO3 is incidentally liable to dissolve, releasing CO2 gas, and is used in "soda" drinks like Coca Cola.

[Sir Edward]

An acid is a molecule that when mixed with water will release a proton, creating a H3O+ molecule. These unfaithful protons can also react with a number of other materials.

Similarly, a base is a molecule that when mixed with water will absorb a proton, creating an OH- molecule. Bases also can react with a number of other materials. One of the most basic (in every sense of the word) bases is NaOH, which simply will dissolve into a Na+ ion and a OH- one, so while it won't react with the water molecules per se it will still produce a OH-.

An acid will "cancel" a base because the acid will release its proton and give it to the base, fulfilling its "desire" for the extra proton.

There are also buffer molecules, that are willing to absorb or release protons depending on the abundance of either OH- or H3O+ ions in their environment. A basic buffer is HCO3-, which is originally made up of carbonic acid (H2CO3, composed of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O)) which has released one proton. It is liable to release another proton and become CO3-- in basic environments but will absorb an extra proton and become H2CO3 in acidic environments. H2CO3 is incidentally liable to dissolve, releasing CO2 gas, and is used in "soda" drinks like Coca Cola.


Just a technical note, what Bovi described above while correct is only a subset of acids called Brønsted-Lowry acids. There are also acids that don't involve releasing a proton, but instead accept electrons. These acids are called Lewis acids. All Brønsted-Lowry acids can be described as Lewis acids, but not the other way around. Also of interest Lewis acid-base reactions can occur outside of an aqueous environment.

[blank]

The Gauls are tall of body with rippling muscles and white of skin and their hair is blond, and not only naturally so for they also make it their practice by artificial means to increase the distinguishing colour which nature has given it. For they are always washing their hair in limewater and they pull it back from the forehead to the nape of the neck, with the result that their appearance is like that of Satyrs and Pans since the treatment of their hair makes it so heavy and coarse that it differs in no respect from the mane of horses

Also, if the Celtic soap was close to it's modern derivate in properties, then it would have been quite easy to spike their hair with it

[Barry Soteiro]

don't pee-pee also bleach the hair ? :oops:

[Maion Maroneios]

Wow, I see we went from fashion to chemistry here!

[blank]

don't pee-pee also bleach the hair ? :oops:

Try it out, if you really want to know

[alatar]

Damn it, I just missed the only time chemistry will come in usefull on these forums...

[Andronikos]

What Bovi wrote is correct (of course :laugh4: ).
The first acid/base theory is Arrhenius's theory - acids release proton, bases release OH-, it was valid only for water solutions. Acids were acids (like HCl, H2SO4...) and bases were hydroxides. Our definition of neutralisation comes from this theory - acid and base react react together to form salt and water.
Broensted theory says that acid releases proton, base absorbs proton, could be use in not/water solutions. Acids and bases now could be not only molecules, but also ions and e.g. ammonia could be base. Each acid has a base pair. Acid = H+ + Base
Lewis theory is about electron pair donation. Some of the most famous acids like H2SO4 or HNO3 aren't Lewis's acids.

Volatility of acids and bases comes from their high reactivity. Acids and bases are volatil in different ways - HNO3 is a powerful oxidising agent and it will literally burn you, H2SO4 is hygroscopic = absorbs water, it will dry your hand so much, that i will cause burns, alcalic hydroxides absorb water too, but, don't cause burns. Even the wounds seem different - typical acid wound is black like burn, base wound is grey, it releases liquid (too tired to find proper english word) and lasts long to cure it.

I could continue if you wish (e.g. pH deffinition and other acid/base info), chemistry is my love :2thumbsup:

[Jaume]

don't pee-pee also bleach the hair ? :oops:

I don't know if the hair too, but pee-pee bleaches the tunics (maybe the togas or the paenulas too, don't know). The Spanish pee-pee was very estimated in those times.

[Ibrahim]

pee-pee? you know, urine is a better, more mature term.

anyways, yes urine does bleach clothes. that's because of the active ingredient in it (ammonia) wich does have some bleaching qualities (since its a base) to it. In fact, roman laundreymen asked poeple on the street to randomly urinate into a bucket in front of their shop, so the can collect all the urine they needed. it's also worth mentioning that urine can act as a antiseptic while cleaning, since it's absolute murder on the bacteria.
Now as for lime being used, let me see (CaO...:book: hmm.) that is indeed a base, and would not be a good idea to use on hair.

[Ibrahim]

What Bovi wrote is correct (of course :laugh4: ).
The first acid/base theory is Arrhenius's theory - acids release proton, bases release OH-, it was valid only for water solutions. Acids were acids (like HCl, H2SO4...) and bases were hydroxides. Our definition of neutralisation comes from this theory - acid and base react react together to form salt and water.
Broensted theory says that acid releases proton, base absorbs proton, could be use in not/water solutions. Acids and bases now could be not only molecules, but also ions and e.g. ammonia could be base. Each acid has a base pair. Acid = H+ + Base
Lewis theory is about electron pair donation. Some of the most famous acids like H2SO4 or HNO3 aren't Lewis's acids.

Volatility of acids and bases comes from their high reactivity. Acids and bases are volatil in different ways - HNO3 is a powerful oxidising agent and it will literally burn you, H2SO4 is hygroscopic = absorbs water, it will dry your hand so much, that i will cause burns, alcalic hydroxides absorb water too, but, don't cause burns. Even the wounds seem different - typical acid wound is black like burn, base wound is grey, it releases liquid (too tired to find proper english word) and lasts long to cure it.

I could continue if you wish (e.g. pH deffinition and other acid/base info), chemistry is my love :2thumbsup:

someone who share the love of chemistry:beam: all this brings me back to junior year in Kuwait.:beam:

I want to show how reactive the acid can get-it can dissolve almost any salt mix with it too (HCL can only do a few salts). also the strongest acids are often gases (yes HCl and H2SO2 are so). the liquid form is diluted to no more than 93.5% concentration in water (even that is for industrial uses only). as for bases, the stronger they are, the more likelly they'll react with an cancel out a strong acid-if I remember correctly.

[bovi]

Thanks for the correction about Lewis acids. My chemistry courses didn't touch this aspect (I'm a computer engineer, not a chemist), I'll have to read up on that sometime.

[dezzerx]

I know Chamomile bleaches the hair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Chamomile

[russia almighty]

pee-pee? you know, urine is a better, more mature term.

anyways, yes urine does bleach clothes. that's because of the active ingredient in it (ammonia) wich does have some bleaching qualities (since its a base) to it. In fact, roman laundreymen asked poeple on the street to randomly urinate into a bucket in front of their shop, so the can collect all the urine they needed. it's also worth mentioning that urine can act as a antiseptic while cleaning, since it's absolute murder on the bacteria.
Now as for lime being used, let me see (CaO...:book: hmm.) that is indeed a base, and would not be a good idea to use on hair.


Male urine only :)

[woad&fangs]

Also, if the Celtic soap was close to it's modern derivate in properties, then it would have been quite easy to spike their hair with it

After searching around a bit it appears that you are correct. :balloon2: for you.

According to Pliny the Elder(courtesy of Wiki) the Romans produced a hair product out ash and tallow. Basically a crude soap. He also said that the Gallic and German men used it quite frequently.

Also, Soap apparently needs time to set after it is made. Before it solidified it could work very well for spiking hair.

Fat+Base= soap, The romans used tallow as the fat and ashes(NaCO3) as the base(look at the description of an Arrhenius base earlier in the thread). The Gauls probably used lime(CaOH2) as the base instead of ash.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No the Gauls most definitely did not use Ca(OH)2 for their soap...

[woad&fangs]

Why not?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Because it won't dissolve into water; effectively making it as good as grease for cleaning purposes...

Apart from the fact that making 'usual' soap is a tricky business: too much leye and you will have a lot less hair to go with next time you take a shower. And unlike say KOH or NaOH you can't easily get rid of 'excess' leye as it'll result in pollution of your soap.

[Puupertti Ruma]

A friend of mine used sugarwater to spike his mohawk haircut. Could that be one solution?

[I of the Storm]

Short term, yes. And in the form of honey probably, since for sugarwater you need refined sugar which wasn't there yet.
But it would probably be quite stiff as long as all these thousands of insects flying around your head didn't eat up your hair...

[Maeran]

Apart from the fact that making 'usual' soap is a tricky business: too much leye and you will have a lot less hair to go with next time you take a shower. And unlike say KOH or NaOH you can't easily get rid of 'excess' leye as it'll result in pollution of your soap.

If the test suggested on this site which gives a colonial period American recipe for soap is reliable (I'm not going to test it, although it is tempting, my neighbours might not approve) then you could quickly and easily get the right amount every time (I imagine a special 'measuring cup' and a float with a line on it would do the trick).

http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/surv/soapmake.htm

That said, don't mess with corrosive chemicals, kids. No really, it will hurt.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well it depends mostly on how picky you are on the quality of your soap. Still; in moder times it's usually a bit of concentrated leye (NaOH dissolved in water) + fat => soap + alkohol (H6C3O3).

As you will virtually always have excess leye as well as the alkohol mentioned to get rid of; the mix is heated and (very) diluted Hydrochloric acid is added. The idea is that the dissolved soap will 'sink' (right word escapes the memory...) to the bottom before the dissolved NaCl will so you can skim the alkohol and dissolved NaCl from the top...

Problem is here that if you add too much acid you will find yourself with something your neighbours are not going to approve of: Butyric ('butter') acid. Combined with the heat it needs little explanation why...