Best choice for English desert warfare?

[AgentBif]

I am finally getting into Africa in my English campaign (first game for me). Man, oh man is that desert heat BRUTAL. So far the game has been a breeze (pun) up to this point. But now, when attacking Egyptian provinces that have more than 1000 defenders, it is suddenly very hard. My units chase the first wave off the field, end up totally exhausted and then are beset by fresh reenforcements. Even my missile units are so tired they can barely shoot! And because my troops are so exhausted, they can't retreat away from the enemy reenforcement point to rest up.

My order of battle up to this point has been typically 3 spear types, 6 missiles, 1 or 2 light cav, and the rest bills.

My question is, what units and technique would you employ against a multiwave muslim army in the desert?

I'm thinking of building up Ireland and going with gold shield Gallowglass to address the stamina problem. But the Gallow's attrition will be high.

bif

[Goodridge]

When I took my English into SE Asia, I found it best to play the 'castle' defense. This refers to the battlefield, not your province.

Basically, find a spot and hunker down. Strong, suvivable infantry in front supported by gallows and bills. A few flankers (scots) help as well. You should come with enough longbows or other missile units to form two waves. The first wave fires all of its ammo and then withdraws so that the second wave can come up and fire.

The key is to NOT pursue them! In battles like this, the enemy will often send 3-4 complete waves at you, and the later waves are not neccessarily poor troops. You will often find that you have pursued one wave of peasants to their side of the map only to be set upon by an entire wave of cav!

You need to stay put. I know how tempting it can be to rush off and finish the slaughter, but you need to be patient and identify the key moment when the enemy has suffered so many casualties that their reserves are depleted.

By holding your ground your troops will get rest and will not become strung out. You will also be near your own reserves, whilst they will ave to march.

You should also have a few units of hobilars to chase down the enemy. fast cav like this will be able to take hundreds of prisinors, since the enemy infantry will have to flee all the way across the map.

The only problem with this is that when you cycle out a unit, you cannot cycle it back in. This means that you may be cycling out units that can still fight. You need to be sure that you are only cycling out units that cannot do much more. It is best to structure your army so that you know what to expect from the reserve pool. So, lets say you have 16 in combat, 6 of which are missile. You should have 6 more of that and only that in that province as reserve so that you get what you want when you want it.

You sound like you are on the right track and have realized your problem. Just sit tight and wait the enemy out. It may not be heroic, but it works.

You may also find the enemy withdrawing without fighting. I have had a numerically superior army do this on numerous occassions. I don't know if this is because they see my deployment and decide it is unassailable, but it is a relief when 4000 enemy quit without a fight.

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Kyle Goodridge

[AndyH]

Crusades can be very useful.

Make about 5 crosses before using the first one. DO NOT WALK THE CRUSADE INTO THE STRONG FRONT LINE. Make sure you have the navy to drop them onto a weak province with no hope of support in the next turn (usually Tunisa is a good starting province)and take the province be seige so that next turn you can use the next cross. Build a port, destroy everything else and off to the next crusade.

You never fight 1000 anything. They will try to come back across the desert with their big armies but tend to do it in bits.

Soon you have hundreds of religeous knights in all that heat but with the advantage that you are defending against their counter attack so you can leave them at the back to look pretty and plug holes whilst your bow kill those lightly armoured foes and save your longbows for the AUM (you need the armour piercing).

It worked for me.

Having said that I've no idea how to fight 1000's of Elmos head on in all that heat!

[hrvojej]

Actually, the gold shield gallowglasses are a bad idea. The fatigue is proportional to armour, so the higher armour units will be exhausted sooner, and will not recover their fatigue. Do the reverse: use lighlty armoured troops. I am under the impression that units with armour 5 or less work best in the desert. Use your standard troop types, but with fewer armour upgrades, and missle troops with no armour upgrades whatsoever. Also, for the same reason, heavy cavalry is usually not included in my desert squads. As far as the actual units go, feudal sgts (black or no armour upgrade); hobilars & mounted sgts; regular archers on attack, crossbows, longbows and arbs on defense.
Just go light, the muslims do that as well.

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-13-2002).]

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:
Basically, find a spot and hunker down. [/QUOTE]

I don't have this luxury, as I am the agressor. ;( I am forced to march all the way to the enemy side of the map where they get their reserves, lest I lose the battle on timeout.

bif

[TenkiSoratoti]

never think multiplayer in singleplayer

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[TheViking]

when u say that the egypts have more then 1000 defenders i suppose that u r the attacker. and when i use to attack in the dessert i use lots and lots of cannons 13-15, (for SP games) serpentins if u can field them and sure to have backups when u withdraw them. Often the enemy withdraw their army after the cannons r out of amu. wich means zero loss for u http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[Gringoleader]

Longbows are always good. Lots of them. Unload arrows then leg it. Small catapults are good, and even ballistas can be handy for upsetting morale.

I find that going for massive weight of numbers is the way to go, cheap and nasty and numerous units like spearmen. If you keep your general out of the way you can chuck successive waves in no problem. Use the bows to reduce the enemy, then it's just a steady pummelling process.

[deejayvee]

Quote When I took my English into SE Asia, [/QUOTE]
How the hell did you get there???? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[insolent1]

I just conquered the bottom third of the map using El Cid. He personally wiped out the muslim relgion http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I used feudal sergeants with no armour upgrades, arbalests with no armour, jinnettes with no armour(in your case hobilars) and a few vikings that I had bribed up in Norway. I had no problems with fatigue as anything below 5 armour can recover well in desert. Do not bring anything above 5 armour or they will be useless. El Cid is now rank 9 with no titles specialist attacker, skilled assaulter, field defence specialist & skilled last stand, skilled risky attacks & best of all BUTCHER. Arbalests are better for AUM then longbows & cheaper.

[Goodridge]

Quote How the hell did you get there????[/QUOTE]

Ack, I meant SW Asia. Sorry. The DOD has us all calling the Mid East 'Southwest Asia' these days. I'm still getting used to it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Quote I don't have this luxury, as I am the agressor. ;( I am forced to march all the way to the enemy side of the map where they get their reserves, lest I lose the battle on timeout.[/QUOTE]

Right, but as has been mentioned, you should make your initial strike at their weakest spot. This will be an easy attack, and you should have the advantage. Use the comments I mentioned, but more agressively. Go ahead and move to their side, or halfway, but keep your army in formation. Do not pursue all the way to the edge, because you cannot move your troops due to map cutoff (that really pisses me off) and the enemy will swarm you. Just stay within range of their reinforcement point, enough to provoke, but not to get mixed in.



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Kyle Goodridge

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by TheViking:
when u say that the egypts have more then 1000 defenders i suppose that u r the attacker. and when i use to attack in the dessert i use lots and lots of cannons 13-15, (for SP games) serpentins if u can field them and sure to have backups when u withdraw them. Often the enemy withdraw their army after the cannons r out of amu. wich means zero loss for u http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[/QUOTE]

The enemy never seems to cooperate when I am the visitor and bring artillery to the party... They always run to the back of the map, well out of range.

OTH, I've had loads of fun camping a frequently attacked sector with catapults. Artillery (certain types) is handy for defense and castle assaults, but not general attacks, I find.

bif

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by hrvojej:
Actually, the gold shield gallowglasses are a bad idea. The fatigue is proportional to armour, so the higher armour units will be exhausted sooner, and will not recover their fatigue.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, thanks, these are very helpful comments. I was assuming that it was the default armor level of the unit that would determine the fatigue, not the armor mod granted by superior armorers. I was thinking that improved armorers would grant superior armor without adding encumberance.

So then, does it follow that high valor, which enhances a unit's defense, also reduces it's stamina in the desert?

bif


[This message has been edited by AgentBif (edited 10-15-2002).]

[FacelessClock]

Grin and beat it. It is pretty unlikey you'll find any of the lighter, desert suitable choices to be any more effective then a tired heavier unit.

[Grifman]

Also, Muslim armies use horsearchers alot which are a real pain. A countermove is to employ arbelasters - these guys outrange the horsearchers, making it painful for them to close to within striking range. Otherwise, they can stand off and chew you up.

Grifman

[TenkiSoratoti]

the english should be well adapted to desert warefare, get pavis arbelsters as soon as possible they will cope well in heat.

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[hrvojej]

Quote Originally posted by AgentBif:

So then, does it follow that high valor, which enhances a unit's defense, also reduces it's stamina in the desert?
[/QUOTE]

Nope, the fatigue is relative to armour, and armour is not the same thing as defense. You don't get the armour (missile defense) by going up in valour, only defense (melee defense). The only way to get armour is through armourer building's upgrades.

edit: Which is why I wouldn't agree with Tenkisoratoti, since pavise units have higher armour, and will get tired sooner, both because of the armour and because they have to walk for longer periods of time due to their lower speed, and you'll get less out of them since tired units fire less missiles per volley. However, I can see a certain point in it if you're using the missiles aggressively, since muslim armies rely heavily on arrows (I don't use them aggressively for the most part).

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-15-2002).]

[Satyr]

Buy some mercenary light cav such as alan's. Also, italian infantry or desert spears (name escapes me) are good.

[Cheetah]

PAF