View Full Version : The Tyrrhenia Fresco
Pullus provided just for fun. The cloak was already addressed.
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4108/etruscangaesatusqu9.jpg
The helment was said to be Phrygian-Thracian, yet I might suggest a much later core Thracian. Please see below. The greaves, maybe Thracian?
http://badaew.narod.ru/trakian/Helmets_files/DCP_0086_small.jpg
The above Thracian helmet was found in 1997 in a burial near Pletena, in the western Rhodope mountains. Stylistically, its dated to the first half of 4th century BC.
http://www.kovachevica.com/pdf/s/02.jpg
This one is from Hoddinott, found in Kovachevitsa, east of the upper Nestos valley and was dated to the 3rd century BC.
My question is, where was the Tyrrheni fresco found and what does it date to?
Oh it can absolutely be Phrygian-Thracian. Here's a specifically Etruscan helmet found in Perugia for instance:
https://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4136/etruscanphrygianhelmetpld0.jpg
Style vs Point of Origin
Very good point indeed, I stand corrected, so its actually an Etruscan stylist copy of a Thracian type. I assume the fresco dates to the early 4th century BC. The reason I suggest its not Phrygian is because this particular polity was destroyed around 690 BC and the ethnos disintegrated soon thereafter. The term Phrygian-Thracian is more or less a relatively modern construct based on perceived similarities of which the former is very much a junior partner. Perugia is that in Umbria? I assume it came from a burial, was it dated?
O'ETAIPOS
05-04-2008, 18:52
"Smurf style" helmet is called with many different names. Phrygian, attico-thracian, tiara-like. But all of them refer to the same type.
Name thracian is most common for helmets of different type - the ones with flat metal crest on hemisferical body, simmilar to body of attic helmet.
MeinPanzer
05-04-2008, 22:17
The helment was said to be Phrygian-Thracian, yet I might suggest a much later core Thracian.
Oh it can absolutely be Phrygian-Thracian. Here's a specifically Etruscan helmet found in Perugia for instance:p
What is supposed to be the difference between a helmet of the "Phrygian-Thracian" type and the "core Thracian" type? I've never heard of the former in studies of Hellenistic helms before.
My question is, where was the Tyrrheni fresco found and what does it date to?
Here's a wider view of the fresco:
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/fth6.JPG
Not sure about the exact findspot as I don't have my sources with me at the moment (obviously Italian, though) but it's dated to the early 4th c. BC or thereabouts, IIRC; at any rate, too early for the EB timeframe.
At any rate, Thracian helmets were not uncommon in 4th c. Italy. Here is a stele from the end of the 4th c. BC of a Tarantine cavalryman, for instance.
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/tarant.JPG
"Smurf style" helmet is called with many different names. Phrygian, attico-thracian, tiara-like. But all of them refer to the same type.
"Thraco-attic," as I've found it used, doesn't refer to the "smurf" style, but rather refers to the style of helmet which is similar to the Attic helmet, most notably with a front headband, but which has a fin-like crest, which is the type worn by the Pezhetairoi in EB.
MeinPanzer, Thanks for the post, it was all very informative. Based on the style I figured it dated to just before the collapse of the united Etruscan state. It looks like a scene from a funerary game?
Its an amazonomachy. And its been dated at different dates, generally second half of the 4th c. BC in what I've seen. I don't recall where its from originally, but its now in the Florence Archaeological Museum.
And I'd suggest that the soldier I'd posted originally represents a Gaul incorporated into the Etruscan army, with some Celtic features and some Etruscan/Hellenic equipment.
I'll back up MP on the thraco-attic helm being different from that here. This is more like a Phrygian, or perhaps Attic-Phrygian, on account of the styling of the front.
russia almighty
05-05-2008, 03:43
I'm loving some of the industrial names for military equipment across the ages.
Back on topic, what is Celtic about the unarmored warrior? 3 of the warriors (including our underarmored fiend) on the fresco are tanned. Two of them are wearing a Thracian style helm (maybe even a third). Unless, three of the warriors are Celts, wearing Hellenic style equipment and fighting for the Etruscans, our underarmored friend is probably someone of a lower class.
the light blue cloak, fighting nude, and the chain link belt are all characteristic of Gauls. all of the warriors are shown tanned, partly to assure that they are differentiated from the pale, almost translucent skin of the Amazons.
Hey, there's that blue you were talking about, MP. It's all over the place too. Any more of that fresco?
a very very very old style; females always white, males always brown. its a code.
MeinPanzer
05-05-2008, 08:46
the light blue cloak, fighting nude, and the chain link belt are all characteristic of Gauls. all of the warriors are shown tanned, partly to assure that they are differentiated from the pale, almost translucent skin of the Amazons.
This sounds pretty tenuous, Paul. First, all the evidence for blue cloaks being a Celtic item of clothing comes from the east and relates to the Galatians. Second, this is clearly a mythological scene, and so fighting nude is nothing out of the ordinary. Finally, I'm fairly sure that his belt is just a plain one that has had some damage done to it so that it now appears to be a chain-link belt (you see the same white dots on his skin, for intance).
Hey, there's that blue you were talking about, MP. It's all over the place too. Any more of that fresco?
Yeah, I totally forgot about this fresco, too, but there's blue used to represent iron again. The only other image I have of this fresco is this one showing a hoplite wearing that controversial Etruscan "lamellar" armour:
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/fhts5.JPG
What in particular makes it controversial? Is it an issue of how its constructed or what it is constructed from? It seems practically the same as what we see on the "Mars" of Todi.
MeinPanzer
05-05-2008, 09:22
What in particular makes it controversial? Is it an issue of how its constructed or what it is constructed from? It seems practically the same as what we see on the "Mars" of Todi.
It is the same as seen on the Mars Todi and on various other sources. The controversial issue is what it's made from: Peter Connolly thought that it was lamellar, but colour examples show cream or beige-coloured plates, so they obviously weren't metallic (unless they were painted, which seems unlikely).
O'ETAIPOS
05-05-2008, 09:25
What is supposed to be the difference between a helmet of the "Phrygian-Thracian" type and the "core Thracian" type? I've never heard of the former in studies of Hellenistic helms before.
At any rate, Thracian helmets were not uncommon in 4th c. Italy. Here is a stele from the end of the 4th c. BC of a Tarantine cavalryman, for instance.
"Thraco-attic," as I've found it used, doesn't refer to the "smurf" style, but rather refers to the style of helmet which is similar to the Attic helmet, most notably with a front headband, but which has a fin-like crest, which is the type worn by the Pezhetairoi in EB.
I'll have to propagate typology by Dintsis (Hellenistishe Helme). :book:
He abandons most of those pseudo-ethnical names.
Sorry if descriptions are not fully understandable:shame: , english is not my mother tongue.
"smuf style"/phrygian/thracian etc are called tiara-like
the one EB pezhetairoi uses is pseudoattic
other types:
-attic - one with hemispherical body without any extensions (except crests) and front piece lacking eye cover.
-chalkidan - distinguished by having nasal and without front piece.
-beotian - hat-like with rounded body and bending edge
-Pilos family:
-pilos/konos - main group - pilos with conical body
-pilos - with rounded body
-konos - group of conical helmets, that are often on the border zone with beotian
-korintian - all helmet that preserve traditional style of korintian, even if adapted to wearing on top of the head
-pseudokorintian - those that preserve late "korintian" scheme of construction but do not have some of "korintian" features, like eye and mouth openings
MeinPanzer
05-05-2008, 10:09
I'll have to propagate typology by Dintsis (Hellenistishe Helme). :book:
He abandons most of those pseudo-ethnical names.
Sorry if descriptions are not fully understandable:shame: , english is not my mother tongue.
"smuf style"/phrygian/thracian etc are called tiara-like
the one EB pezhetairoi uses is pseudoattic
other types:
-attic - one with hemispherical body without any extensions (except crests) and front piece lacking eye cover.
-chalkidan - distinguished by having nasal and without front piece.
-beotian - hat-like with rounded body and bending edge
-Pilos family:
-pilos/konos - main group - pilos with conical body
-pilos - with rounded body
-konos - group of conical helmets, that are often on the border zone with beotian
-korintian - all helmet that preserve traditional style of korintian, even if adapted to wearing on top of the head
-pseudokorintian - those that preserve late "korintian" scheme of construction but do not have some of "korintian" features, like eye and mouth openings
I'm aware of Dintsis' classifications, but my confusion was over the term "Phrygian-Thracian" and how it was used in the OP and the first response as some kind of helm set apart from a "core Thracian" type. I know that Dintsis "Tiara-like" is called variously Thracian or Phrygian, but I've never heard this type of peaked helmet divided into "Phrygian-Thracian" and just plain "Thracian" type before in any sort of helmet classification system. What, in this system of classification, is the difference between a "Phrygian-Thracian" and a "core Thracian"?
Right,
I responded with an invented 'core Thracian,' to mean Thracian, as European to what I perceived was a reference to Phrygian, as Anatolia? I'm not totally sure but I think the use of Phrygian-Thracian or Phrygo-Thracian may be a take on the similar form noted of the Phrygian cap and Thracian helmet?
I agree, Ruben, and its just a guess. However, I've seen detailed photographs and you can see what are clearly either links or decoration on the belt, which is also notable for its position high on the stomach. Also note that most warriors shown nude don't have belts unless they're Gauls; rather, they wear baldrics. K. Strobel suggested to me--drawing, I think, upon someone else--that the light blue cloaks seen on Galatians are likely characteristic of warrior attire elsewhere in the Celtic world, and likely dyed from woad or a similar dye.
And while nudity is common in mythological scenes, there are a total of twelve male combatants on this sarcophagus, and only one is partially nude. I'm also sorry to hear that you have no other pictures, MP, I've only got crappy pics of some of the remaining scenes. Here's one of the shots I do have:
https://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5968/etruscansarcamazonomachup0.jpg
MeinPanzer
05-05-2008, 15:36
I agree, Ruben, and its just a guess. However, I've seen detailed photographs and you can see what are clearly either links or decoration on the belt, which is also notable for its position high on the stomach. Also note that most warriors shown nude don't have belts unless they're Gauls; rather, they wear baldrics. K. Strobel suggested to me--drawing, I think, upon someone else--that the light blue cloaks seen on Galatians are likely characteristic of warrior attire elsewhere in the Celtic world, and likely dyed from woad or a similar dye.
If the belt is indeed more detailed and composed of belt chains then that argument certainly has more strength to it. I've heard the same hypothesis before about blue being generally a favoured colour among the Celts, but I've yet to see colour evidence of blue cloaks for any Celtic group beyond the Galatians, which leaves me on the fence on that one.
And while nudity is common in mythological scenes, there are a total of twelve male combatants on this sarcophagus, and only one is partially nude.
It is unusual that only one of the figures would be nude, but on the amazonomachy from the Artemision from Magnesia on the Maeander, for instance, only a small proportion of Greek figures are depicted nude, while the rest are partially or totally armoured, which leads me to believe that it may have been some sort of convetion. Perhaps the nude figure is a particular hero worthy of such depiction.
I'm also sorry to hear that you have no other pictures, MP, I've only got crappy pics of some of the remaining scenes. Here's one of the shots I do have:
https://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5968/etruscansarcamazonomachup0.jpg
Oh, I do have a fairly high quality image of this fellow, but I wasn't sure if he was part of the same scene or was from some other Italic source (I really have to reorganize my image collection...). Here it is (linked for size):
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/fths5.jpg
Like you, however, I have not seen any other portions of this painting before.
It is the same as seen on the Mars Todi and on various other sources. The controversial issue is what it's made from: Peter Connolly thought that it was lamellar, but colour examples show cream or beige-coloured plates, so they obviously weren't metallic (unless they were painted, which seems unlikely).
Ah, I see. That is problematic. I was going to suggest that it was maybe made of subunits of twisted linen, which could be attached to a linen or leather frame; however, while that might work well against swords I can't imagine it doing to well against a spear or even a thrust from a sword. Seems like a lot of work to construct too. :shrug:
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