Opinions on Historic Battles

[Rhyfelwyr]

I had barely even had a go at these until recently, and they've proved quite fun. Make for a nice change in between campaigns.

I found the hardest of them to be Tanenberg. Took me three goes to win that one. The secret is winning not through causing more casualties, but by causing a chain rout in time before the German's left flank of knights returns. If you horse archers keep them distracted for long enough, then the Halberds are just about capable of holding the line against the enemy spearmen to allow your Retainers to win on the enemies right flank and then charge the enemies main line from behind. By the time the enemies knights return, you should have routed and captured most of the enemies infantry, and you can cope with their cavalry from there.

Hastings was the only other battle I needed more than one attempt at. Charging your cavalry head on will result in you getting well and truly slaughtered. I found that sending two units of archers to the far side of the enemies flanks worked well. That way, you shoot the Earl's Guard down quickly and easily, and this will mean the enemies main line will charge at you if you engage them ever for a second. You should regroup your men slightly further from the hill than where they start, with the cavalry on the flanks. Take the troops you used to lure the enemy and park them directly behind your main line, so the enemy goes in that direction. Then simply charge your cavalry from the flanks and you'll win comfortably.

The rest I found pretty easy, won them all first time. Arsuf was tight though, and you will need to pause a lot at the start as they Egyptians come down on you in seconds. If you use your cavalry to charge into their big body of Saracen Militia on the far end of the road, then thats their most solid area taken out. From then on, you should be able to use numbers to chase them back through the two main oppenings in the cliff, and then mop up Saladin and the bodyguard and archers he has holding the clifftop.

Agincourt was also a pretty close contest. You really have to charge your 2-handers into the enemy properly to be able to overcome their infantry. If you flank their main force with the Heavy Billmen while holding the line with the Dismounted Knights, then combined with flaming arrows this is enough to cause a quick rout of the enemy. Once you see the cavalry reinforcements coming, focus all arrow fire on them since the stakes will not protect your archers from them and you have no infantry strong enough to take a charge head-on.

Otumba was very easy, the Aztecs are all over the place and rout very quickly under your gunfire. Slightly disappointing, since the Aztecs aren't nearly as numerous as the battle description makes them sound.

Setenil is fairly straighforward. Shoot down two gaps in the wall and destroy the gate. From there on, if you pile your men in you will soon overwhelm the inferior quality enemy troops. Also send Almughavars up the ramp first as they will distract the enemy while your main infantry sprint into the breaches. Use your Gendarmes to rush to the enemy trebuchets, as they can cause nasty casualties when your men are crowded near the walls. And unless I'm missing something, you have to march your cannon up the ramp to breach the inner walls, but its pretty simple if you make a few gaps.

Pavia was probably the most disappointing battle. You have very few troops to work with, and I did most of my killing with my General. I was a little lucky though, since a cannonball killed the French King early on. Pretty easy though, especially since the stupid AI will march its cannons off their defences.

On the whole though, these are fun and I'd advise anyone who's not had a go yet to have a look at them.

Any other opinions on them? Also are there any new ones in Kingdoms?

[ataribaby]

I liked Agincourt. It's a quick, simple scenario to play out; and from the English point of view it all looks a bit hairy and challenging at the beginning with all those French noble men advancing on your King's lowly yeomen.

In fact things remain hairy throughout especially when you have to redirect some of your attention to the charge from the rear. Withering archer volleys are your best bet then, followed by a sacrificial billmen charge to rescue your precious longbowmen.

It often feels like it can go either way in that battle, so it's quite satisfying to win it. I'd quite like a Battle of Crecy scenario to try out too.

Hastings has a similar feel to it - that of being outclassed by the enemy's units. After having played Kingdoms and the Retrofit, it's quite alarming how ineffective your peasant archers are against the shield wall. When I tried the battle a couple of weeks ago, the arrows didn't seem to make the slightest dent, even from the flank.

So I just went with the advisor and kept them as a screen for my spearmen while charging my cavalry into the enemy's flanks. Your infantry can then charge and chain rout the softened Saxons.

[Yaropolk]

Tanenberg is super easy if you don't follow their directions. Rather than kiting the enemy knights around in the field have your HA bring the knights one by one to your infantry for slaughter. Once all knight are dead, you can have your HA's unload all their arrows on the enemy and then charge them with all you got to cause a chain route.

[Quintus.JC]

I found Tanenberg to be the easier battle. It was actually the first one I won after trying out in Agincourt and Arsuf. After installing the game I jumped to historical battles straight away. Trusting that the battle mechanism shouldn't be too different from Rome. Agincourt was first. Pretty straight forward really, all you have to do is shoot at the French knights with Yeomen archers and charge at them with your dismounted English Knights and Billmen. It was annoying because I had no cavalry. I was on course to win but some cavalry charged me from the rare and I send my archers into melee too late. My king was killed and all was lost. In Arsuf King Richard actually had the superior troop. But they were in some sort of comfined space and their knights couldn't move around properly and charging into Saracen Militia is sucide.

You get more space in Tanenberg. Just march your Halberdiers straight forward. Use your Lithuanian Cavalry and Cumen cavalry to fire upon the Teutonic Knights. The whole left flank of Knights charged at my horse archers and separated from the main force. The enemy knights were soon surrounded by my heavy cavalry and cut down. After that I assaulted their left flank when they were engaged in a melee with my infantry and caused a mass rout. I found Otumba to be quite scary at first, but after playing for a while it’s not that hard to beat a bunch of natives.

Good thread idea BTW, mind if I post a similar thread in the Coliseum?:beam:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Good thread idea BTW, mind if I post a similar thread in the Coliseum?:beam:

Yes.

Seriously though, I am surprised that Tannenberg is apparently viewed as one of the easier battles. Maybe I just haven't got the hang of HA, you would have thought conquering the map as the Turks would have given me enough experience. :shame:

[TWFanatic]

I like them all too, but I wish they were a bit larger. I recall Rome had some nice big historical battles, especially the MP ones, which would go up to about 8,000 men on the battlefield! Sadly M2:TW settles for about 1,000 men most battles, it puts me to sleep.

[Quintus.JC]

Yes.



Sorry but my English is not great, when you say yes does it mean you do mind and doesn't want me to post it, or you don't mind and the Yes was just a mesage for go ahead. Thanks.:beam:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Sorry but my English is not great, when you say yes does it mean you do mind and doesn't want me to post it, or you don't mind and the Yes was just a mesage for go ahead. Thanks.:beam:

Well it was meant to be read as in yes I do mind.

But I was only joking when I said that though, of course I have no objections to you making the post in the Coliseum. Go ahead! :2thumbsup:

And historical battles do definetely need to be larger. The 20 unit army limit should be used in pretty much all of them. Pavia was not a skirmish between a few hundered men, and the bodyguard should not make 3/4 of the kills!

[PBI]

So, inspired by this thread I decided to try out the Historical Battles. Before today the only one I'd tried was Agincourt, which I very narrowly won, largely through luck I suspect as it was not long after I bought the game.

First of all I try Arsuf. I split my forces in two; the rearward spears I used to pin the enemy forces on the hill whilst I used my Hospitallers to crush the Arab cavalry to the rear. Meanwhile I used the forward spears to pin the hordes of Saracen Militia in place whilst I repeatedly charged them from the rear using Richard and the Templars. It was touch and go for a while but once I'd routed the arab cavalry Saladin charged my hospitallers, who managed to dispatch him surprisingly easily. After that the saracen spears broke and it was all over.

Next, Pavia. Much to my surprise the enemy cav charge my pikes immediately, which to my even greater surprise easily repel the charge. As others have mentioned the general's bodyguard is absolutely crucial, the French infantry can be dispatched easily enough by pinning with the infantry and flanking with the bodyguard. The French gendarmes gave me some pause but once again the Landsknechts defy my expectations and slaughter them. My halberd militia confirm my previous suspicions about them, they are easily crushed whilst barely doing any damage, but the Zweihanders are surprisingly powerful given all the doom and gloom I'd heard about two-handers. Besides King Francis, the only enemy I struggled with were the crossbowmen, which surprisingly took several charges from my general to rout. The cannons are no threat at all, they fire exploding shells so they hit the French army far more often than my own since it is more widely spread.

Finally Otumba, as before the cavalry are absolutely crucial. My armour piercing guns and crossbows are wasted on the hundreds of unarmoured warriors, and my infantry are simply not numerous enough to overcome the enemy, so the best method I found was to pin with the infantry and simply charge repeatedly with the cavalry. Simple enough, I only had one slightly hairy moment near the end when I came quite close to losing Cortez, but I got away with it. The only real challenge with this battle is putting up with the horribly laggy performance due to the thousands of men and the nearby city.

Not tried Tannenberg or Setenil yet, might do tomorrow. Of the three I've tried today I'd say Arsuf was the most fun, and the one I came closest to losing, but ultimately the huge amounts of heavy cavalry you get gives you a decisive advantage. I must say I have been pleasantly surprised, the last time I tried out the Historical Battles was in MTW where I found them frustratingly hard. Odd though that you don't get a little blurb at the end telling you how great you are, just the normal victory screen.

[Walternat0r]

I found Agincourt and Tanenberg to be quite easy. Tanenberg I retreated everyone out of cannon range and easily lured their nights and general away from the pack (actually about 3/4 away across the map, my horsies were quite tired when they got back) then after that was a simply outflank to get the cannons and then rear charge their superior infantry.

Agincourt I really liked, I'm a huge huge huge huge fan of Longbows, and any battle where the AI has like 2 units or a general I fight with 4-10 longbowmen units just to watch them hose the buggers down :) The longbows massacred their mounted knights then when the chivalrics got a bit closer there were quite thinned out and my line was long enough to envelop(e) them. Retinue and Yoemans running to their rear and charging them, then re-aligning and shooting them as they retreat. Only nearly scary bit was the 3-4 cavalry that come at you from behind. But by the time they arrived the rest of the Frogs were legging it back to Paris so I just mugged 'em :)

I haven't tried the others yet, but reading this is giving me the itch to play Medieval and I got an exam in 6 days. I think revision can wait another day...

[Quintus.JC]

Well it was meant to be read as in yes I do mind.

But I was only joking when I said that though, of course I have no objections to you making the post in the Coliseum. Go ahead! :2thumbsup:

And historical battles do definetely need to be larger. The 20 unit army limit should be used in pretty much all of them. Pavia was not a skirmish between a few hundered men, and the bodyguard should not make 3/4 of the kills!

Thanks mate.:beam:

I agree with you. I reckon in the case of historical battles they should exceed the 20 units limit. This could make the battles more fun and more historically accurite. Although having too many units is harder to control but this should not be a problem for exprienced players.

[PBI]

Played Agincourt and Tannenberg last night. Agincourt was easier than I remember it being, I think it helps that I know a bit more about how to use two-handers now. So, no holding the line and letting the French charge me, I countercharge with DEKs as soon as they are close. That plus a flanking charge from my billmen is enough to rout the first wave surprisingly quickly. The second wave is more tricky, since my men are still disorganised when it hits and many don't get off their charge properly. In the end though I am mostly fighting dismounted nobles which are just as inept as my own guys in melee. It's a tough battle and I am forced to flank with my yeomen archers and get them stuck into melee, which does the trick along with the death of the French leader. The cavalry charge from the rear was nasty, but my armour piercing yeomen archers are surprisingly good against it and Henry gets stuck in and slaughters the cavalry general. I think the stakes may have softened the impact of the charge even though the are facing the wrong way. The third infantry wave is weaker than the others and is easy to break.

Tannenberg is a bit harder, I followed Yaropolk's suggestion and drew the knights across the field to my line to defeat them in detail. With most of the knights gone I could crush the right flank with my cavalry superiority and run my HAs around the left, allowing for a nice flanking manouveur to wipe out the infantry. Those cannons are nasty though, much more dangerous than the ones in Pavia, I lost this one on my first attempt due to a lucky cannonball killing my general, so not a good idea to hang around for too long in their killing zone.

Just Hastings and Setenil to do tonight. Are there any more in Kingdoms? Or custom made ones? I've gained quite a taste for them now.

As far as I can tell, the keys are:
* Flanking: All five of the battles I tried I won with a simple flanking maneuver, the AI just doesn't seem to be able to cope with them.
* Defeating in detail: Wiping out the enemy cavalry (at least in Arsuf and Tannenberg) makes the first point much easier.
* Proper use of charging: Both cavalry and 2h infantry.
* Not being afraid to get archers/gunners stuck into melee: They all seem to be much better at this than I'm used to from vanilla, and the battles are so fast-paced that there's not time for them to do much damage from afar, whereas a few more troops to use for flanking helps a lot.

[Quintus.JC]

The reason why I really like Historical battles is mainly for the intros, wish there could be more of it.

[Must`]

The reason why I really like Historical battles is mainly for the intros, wish there could be more of it.

double to that

btw. Hastings seems to be the easiest battle(imo) and tanneberg/setenil hardest :yes:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Just Hastings and Setenil to do tonight. Are there any more in Kingdoms? Or custom made ones? I've gained quite a taste for them now.

They're quite addictive once you give them a go, aren't they? I barely looked at them before, but it turns out I love them.

Also I second your question - are there any more of these in Kingdoms?

EDIT: Also welcome to the Guild Must'! :balloon:

[Must`]

thank you rhyfelwyr :)

Rtw had better historical battles and more fun (seleukids vs egypt my favourite), I think that ca could have added some more (maybe some habsburgs vs turks battle would be nice)

[Must`]

why i can't edit my own posts and why i can't post nothing in tavern :help: ~:confused:

[Quintus.JC]

why i can't edit my own posts and why i can't post nothing in tavern :help: ~:confused:

Junior members aren't allowed to edit their posts and could not post in the tavern. You have to wait a while to receive full membership.:yes:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Rtw had better historical battles and more fun (seleukids vs egypt my favourite), I think that ca could have added some more (maybe some habsburgs vs turks battle would be nice)

I developed an obsession for Ottoman-style armies once I got to about mid-way in my Turkish campaign. Until the gunpowder reforms I had been using lots of horse archers and cavalry, but once gunpowder came...

There's no beating armies of Janissary Heavy Infantry, Janissary Archers, Janissary Musketeers, and some Qapukulu and Sipahi's on the flanks. Managed to get some Mercenary Elephants mixed in with a few of those armies as well.

A historical battle between the Habsburgs (HRE?), and Ottoman Turks would be truly fantastic...

[PBI]

Anyone tried playing around with the battle editor in Kingdoms? In principle it should be possible to make custom historical battles but I found it not to be exactly user-friendly.