Best way to scale a hill?

[Long lost Caesar]

Alright so the imagine the scene.

Your army has finally chased the remnants of that annoying faction leader of that annoying faction (see how I keep it open for all?) and now its the final showdown, all of your victories climaxing at this final struggle.

But what's this? It's a mountain map? The enemy are on the top of a steep hill, practically a mountain itself, and are holding position? And to make matters worse, there's no way to engage them without scaling the hill/mountain/olympus-like monument?

So here's where my question comes in: how do you guys deal with this situation? What's best, to run or walk up a hill? Does it make any difference which you choose? After all, its the same distance, and if they didn't leg it up there they'd simply have further to walk! What would you do? Cheers

[lobf]

Take the easiest slope up, if there is one. Go real slow, rest often.

[Midnj]

It's usually best to take an indirect approach. Scale the hill first until you are level with them (or even above), rest your army, then traverse to engage.

[Elmetiacos]

...or tempt them into charging off the hill, Hastings style.

[craziii]

It's usually best to take an indirect approach. Scale the hill first until you are level with them (or even above), rest your army, then traverse to engage.
this is the way to fight that battle.

[Sand]

Heading to a point level but distant with them, resting, and then moving to engage along the slope of the mountain usually works.

Can also provoke the AI into moving off its position by splitting your forces - usually into cavalry and infantry and forcing the AI to pick which side to defend.

[lobf]

I should add that's what I meant by "easiest slope up". It's best to find a level spot somewhere, and if it's not close, you can sometimes coax them out of their position with skirmishers / cav.

[Ibrahim]

this is the way to fight that battle.

seconded

[Tellos Athenaios]

Would say thirded; but I've got something to add. Make sure to have some decent medium/light cavalry (rather than heavy cavalry as those tire too quickly) to cover your troops while they march upwards.

Also be sure to include the usual array of fair/long range missile units: it's nice when you climb upwards; rest; and finally turn your initial disadvantage to your advantage... (Especially as those hills are outright impossible to stage a proper battle on; with the exception of an ambush perhaps...)

[Olaf The Great]

I'm sure its not as bad as Illryia in RTR.

[Parallel Pain]

Though I agree with all of mentioned, sometimes just so happen the highest point on the map is at a corner, in which case you will never find a level spot. And if it's one of those damned mountains, it'll be steep no matter which way you go and even if the men walk they'll be exhausted half way up.

Now add to that if the enemy have tonnes of archers and skirmishers (in fact 3/4 of full stack) and that ranged attacks get damage increase with height (I have prove of this), then you are toast.

To take things even further, add to that the +7 atk/morale the AI get in VH, then you might as well surrender or retreat before they start shooting.

I have personally used this to crush the Seleucids in my Saka Rauka campaign (without the VH bonus obviously).


So really, the best way is not to fight it at all. I always zoom in max on the campaign map to make sure I won't be getting into one of those situations and (as far as possible, it's quite hard to see on the campaign map) try to make the AI attack me when I have the ground.

So if I was you I would just not attack him at all. He can't stay on that mountain forever. Actually it'll be good if he does as you can just go take his cities while he hides up there.

[craziii]

if that is the case, get 1 -3 highest armor infantry or heavy cavalry units you have, put them in loose formation and march them up slowly to absorbed all of the missile fire. fast forward, then just go do your thing. just make sure you troops are not tire when you engage them, rest as necessary.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I kind of consider moving up the hill to the same altitude as the enemy as an exploit. I try never to do it since the AI should but doesn't counter such a move. I'll usually slowly march them up the hill trying to keep them as fresh as possible. If possible, I try to draw them down with missile fire or such, though sometimes your missiles have to get way too close before they are in range, firing up hill.

[Midnj]

Well I guess it kind of is an exploit.. but if you think about it if you ascended far enough away from the AI army they have no effective counter except to run away and avoid engagement.

Still, I'd imagine it would be interesting to try to slog up hill and defeat the army head on. Going to be tough with my 12 unit armies though, since I usually use regular line infantry rather than elite infantry units. They would break before I could effectively flank or do much of anything really.

[PershsNhpios]

I was going to answer, but everything that needed to be said has been said.

If you want practice, the EB team has created several beautiful, but entirely frustrating maps on which your custom armies can fight at a 75 degree angle.

Namely, the Gulf of Corinth.

[Parallel Pain]

if that is the case, get 1 -3 highest armor infantry or heavy cavalry units you have, put them in loose formation and march them up slowly to absorbed all of the missile fire. fast forward, then just go do your thing. just make sure you troops are not tire when you engage them, rest as necessary.

Oh believe me in VH battle with terrain help, there is not one single unit in the game with high enough shield/armor value to stand up to that kind of fire loose formation or not.

[Midnj]

Oh believe me in VH battle with terrain help, there is not one single unit in the game with high enough shield/armor value to stand up to that kind of fire loose formation or not.

That's what skirmishers are for ;)

[Digby Tatham Warter]

I hate it when I'm not paying attention and I end up having to kick someone off a big hill/mountain, even more because I won't retreat very often.

Anyway I divide my forces, 1 force goes strait at them, the other with the best troops and missiles drives a wedge along a flank and runs despite exhaustion to get above them, so far despite some racing for position, it's always worked.

[Parallel Pain]

That's what skirmishers are for ;)

Well I guess they can be meat shield for a while...until they all die out that is

Seriously, in my Saka Rauka campaign on normal unit size (where ranged units are less powerful) I had 8 horse archers and 2 late generals (who don't shoot) on top of a mountain. The Seleucids with like 14 guys took a hike trying to get me. Like three elite phalanx got to the top with HALF their men still standing on very shaky foot due to both exhaustion and fear. Everyone else either died or ran away, including their general (died). The phalanx that did get to the top promptly got charged and broke (no duh). I lost like 8 guys out of like 250 and this was VH battle.

Given this kind of record. For those kind of mountains in VH battle (which would be a lot worse than my example), even if I were the AI and put the men in loose formation and rested often, I still wouldn't have enough men left to win the melee once I get to the top.

I actually felt bad for the soldiers having to obey the command to scale the mountain (or maybe cliff). Any general with half a brain wouldn't do that under incoming fire.

During very late in the campaign I held a Seleucid mountain city Karasomething above Mesopotamia. Two sides of that city had slopes going down and those two sides were the sides that the Ptolemy came most often. These were about 30~40 degrees, unlike the mountain that was like 70~80. I packed the city with 10 archers and 10 skirmishers. Every time the Ptolemy came knocking on the city gate, I sallied. When they are on those slopes, 7 times out of 10 I shot them to pieces. 2/10 I took out from 1/3 to half or more of them and they either retreated or lifted the siege next turn. 1/10 I shot them to pieces next turn. And If I had more archers and less skirmishers I could've done more damage.

Moral of story? If you are attacking, in VH battles archers are your worst nightmare (worst than cataphracts). If you are attacking up a mountain in VH battle with the AI having lots and lots of archers, go check yourself into either the nearest psych ward or the nearest care facility for the mentally challenged.

[Tancredii]

...or tempt them into charging off the hill, Hastings style.

Senlac is more like a speed restriction bump than the hills we have to deal with in EB. Although in principle tempting the oppo off the hill is the best way - use fodder and draw them into a nasty little welcome - Cynoscephalae is probably a more relevant example.

As for exploits in moving parrallel and then resting before engagement the above battle also demostrates infiltration at it's best.

Bloody Romans...........

[Maeran]

I kind of consider moving up the hill to the same altitude as the enemy as an exploit.

If the enemy is going to predictably always choose to sit in the corner on a hillside only a mountain goat could love, then creeping around to a better position is entirely reasonable. Sitting in the corner is itself a far worse exploit of the game mechanics than simply jockeying for a good position.

[Midnj]

Well Parallel, I kind of see what you mean but I mean it's rare for the AI to have a ton of archers/slingers and javelins it's only going to apply when they camp some hill somewhere.

On level ground, any army that is mostly archers/slingers is going to get mauled because they either don't have enough cavalry or infantry to win the battle.

I normally try to get to level altitude first and it's rare that isn't possible. Supposing it's not - your skirmishers donj't actually need to survive long enough to run them out of ammo, they only need to survive long enough to cover about half the time it takes to go from "in range" of their ranged units to engaging them in melee. We're talking 10-20 seconds typically. Even 8 archers concentrating on one skirmisher unit won't wipe it out completely in that time frame.

Once your line infantry overtakes your skirmishers just charge... you are only going to lose a smattering of men before you engage the enemy and their ranged units are no longer a factor.

[Parallel Pain]

Yes well I was talking rare cases:yes:

Might be even impossible cases as personally I've never found the campaign AI smart enough to move it's army onto a mountain.

[Cambyses]

Well Parallel, I kind of see what you mean but I mean it's rare for the AI to have a ton of archers/slingers and javelins it's only going to apply when they camp some hill somewhere.

On level ground, any army that is mostly archers/slingers is going to get mauled because they either don't have enough cavalry or infantry to win the battle.

I normally try to get to level altitude first and it's rare that isn't possible. Supposing it's not - your skirmishers donj't actually need to survive long enough to run them out of ammo, they only need to survive long enough to cover about half the time it takes to go from "in range" of their ranged units to engaging them in melee. We're talking 10-20 seconds typically. Even 8 archers concentrating on one skirmisher unit won't wipe it out completely in that time frame.

Once your line infantry overtakes your skirmishers just charge... you are only going to lose a smattering of men before you engage the enemy and their ranged units are no longer a factor.

This is true most of the time, but I do remember one battle on a steep hill - in Sicily I think - where I could quite literally shoot across the whole length of the battlefield, as the hill was so steep...

That was some screwy battlefield actually it was basically a sheer cliff with no flat area at all. Easy win though. :2thumbsup:

[Cambyses]

Well Parallel, I kind of see what you mean but I mean it's rare for the AI to have a ton of archers/slingers and javelins it's only going to apply when they camp some hill somewhere.

On level ground, any army that is mostly archers/slingers is going to get mauled because they either don't have enough cavalry or infantry to win the battle.

I normally try to get to level altitude first and it's rare that isn't possible. Supposing it's not - your skirmishers donj't actually need to survive long enough to run them out of ammo, they only need to survive long enough to cover about half the time it takes to go from "in range" of their ranged units to engaging them in melee. We're talking 10-20 seconds typically. Even 8 archers concentrating on one skirmisher unit won't wipe it out completely in that time frame.

Once your line infantry overtakes your skirmishers just charge... you are only going to lose a smattering of men before you engage the enemy and their ranged units are no longer a factor.

This is true most of the time, but I do remember one battle on a steep hill - in Sicily I think - where I could quite literally shoot across the whole length of the battlefield, as the hill was so steep...

That was some screwy battlefield actually it was basically a sheer cliff with no flat area at all. Easy win though. :2thumbsup:

[Cartaphilus]

I don't like mountain battlefields. As I am normally the attacker is very annoying to climb like a goat just to fight the enemy.

As a defender I prefer bridges or ford battles - I don't make the mistake of Byrhtnoth in Maldon, if the foes want to cross they have to pay in blood for it.

But the best battlefield on Earth is a green field without many trees. Where the armies can manoeuvre properly.