Are the numbers correct in Burma?

[Devastatin Dave]

I've seen the number of dead range from 20,000 to possibly 200,000. I'm trying not to allow my cynicism cloud my judgment, but there is a part of me thinking that unless outside agencies can confirm these #'s, I'm less likely to donate to the cause. I know that sounds harsh, but I'm not wasting money or materials on the impulse of goodwill. So here's the question...
Do you donate a little now and if the numbers are confirmed, send more? I'm kind of leaning towards this option. What will you do personally?

[Don Corleone]

The fundamental problem in all of this DevDave is the number of 'missing'. This wasn't just another Katrina. The storm washed ashore in a tropical river delta where large numbers of people lived in rice paddies, at approximately -1meter sea level.

So there's up to 200,000 missing people right now. There are 20,000 corpses. Of the 200K, the majority were probably washed out to sea and are presumed dead, but not known to be. There were probably some survivors who just haven't checked in yet, but these people didn't have houses and roofs to climb on. They were living in grass huts at or slightly below sea level.

Scary stuff.

[drone]

The junta apparently has confiscated the UN aid shipments that arrived today (Burma time), and intend to control the release of that aid. There are serious concerns about how the aid is going to get where it is needed, so I'm not sure donations are going to be spent properly. :shrug:

[gaelic cowboy]

I read earlier on the UN was suspending aid till they stop robbing it so this could get ugly and quickly.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Do you donate a little now and if the numbers are confirmed, send more? I'm kind of leaning towards this option. What will you do personally?

Sadly, I'm not remotely convinced that any aid will be spent wisely or effectively given the refusal of the military government to accept outside help. They are fine with the actual money, you understand, but they need to spend it, don't you know.

I tend to choose my giving very carefully and that often excludes disaster relief as it is invariably ineffective - at least as far as private giving goes. I don't intend to give my money to ensure the brutal dictators and their soldiers get fed or - buy more arms from the donors.

[naut]

Hopefully the death toll is nowhere near the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and subsequent tsunamis.

[Tribesman]

Do you donate a little now and if the numbers are confirmed, send more? I'm kind of leaning towards this option. What will you do personally?

Personally I am going to give absolutely nothing whatsoever .

[Adrian II]

Personally I am going to give absolutely nothing whatsoever .Same here. We don't give to fascists.

[Fragony]

'Junta' was one heck of a hurricane oh teh horrors of socialism. If they ask I give but nobody has.

[Tribesman]

'Junta' was one heck of a hurricane oh teh horrors of socialism.
Socialism ? I thought the previous fruitcakes had got rid of anything and anyone remotely leftist or socialist way back in the 1970s Frag and the new friutcakes were just carrying on from the previous nutters .

[Fragony]

Socialism ? I thought the previous fruitcakes had got rid of anything and anyone remotely leftist or socialist way back in the 1970s Frag and the new friutcakes were just carrying on from the previous nutters .

My bad totalitarism mass murder oppression lies and exreme poverty I kinda assumed they were socialists. Could blame me for not looking it up but if you ask me we should blame socialism in general for being like that.

ps,

http://www.alaskaquilt.com/images/imagesoregon/big_fish.jpg

[Adrian II]

http://www.alaskaquilt.com/images/imagesoregon/big_fish.jpgThat is one huge red herring.

Fragony, a military-style, nationalist dictatorship that preaches autarky and the triumph of the unique Burmese mentality over all odds clearly spells fascism.

[Samurai Waki]

Won't be Donating either.

[Fragony]

That is one huge red herring.

Fragony, a military-style, nationalist dictatorship that preaches autarky and the triumph of the unique Burmese mentality over all odds clearly spells fascism.

What did North Korea do this time???

[Tribesman]

Could blame me for not looking it up but if you ask me we should blame socialism in general for being like that.

But they are nationalists Frag , they like to keep the minorities down because they don't seem to integrate and adopt to the correct Burmese way of life , I thought they would have been right up your street as far as regimes go .

[InsaneApache]

The Chinese like 'em.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It pains me to shore up Fragony's neat and tidy view on the world, but he can claim this one as a socialist regime.

The original nutter that instituted the junta in 1962, General Ne Win, did so through creating his Burmese Socialist Programme Party which had the catchy policy of the Burmese Way to Socialism. He nationalised everything that moved down to water buffalo, shutting down all democratic institutions and eradicating the free press.

Now, discerning minds might see that these characteristics are socialist in the same way that National Socialism was, or that countries that call themselves Democratic Republics are always democratic. Not.

But in Fragony's World, he has a point.

[Adrian II]

The regime in Burma called itself Socialist until 1988, when it renamed itself 'Union of Burma' and then (1989) 'Union of Myanmar'. It is controlled by the military. There is not even a socialist party. The old BSPP re-formed itself into the National Unity Party in 1988. It's ideology is fervent nationalism, mitigated by institutionalised corruption.
But in Fragony's World, he has a point.He is also the only one who lives there.

[Caius]

For me, its not a good idea. I think the government will use the funds for other things.

[rory_20_uk]

If you don't want to play in the International playground, then don't expect money when things go wrong.

Do nothing: people will suffer.
Give money: prople will still suffer.
Invade: people will suffer.

~:smoking:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

But they are nationalists Frag , they like to keep the minorities down because they don't seem to integrate and adopt to the correct Burmese way of life , I thought they would have been right up your street as far as regimes go .

Why can't nationalism and socialism mix?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea

In short, they can mix, but it's a bad combination.

[Tribesman]

Why can't nationalism and socialism mix?

Egalitarianism , once nationalism gets into the mix it isn't socialism is it .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Egalitarianism , once nationalism gets into the mix it isn't socialism is it .

Socialism as an economic theory can coexist quite peacefully with nationalism. There's no reason why they can't coexist - but, like I said, I wouldn't want to live where they did.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe)
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_nationalism)
Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

[Tribesman]

Your first link disproves your point , if Zanu was socialist and nationalist then it wouldn't have policies favouring tribal , political or race groups would it as all people of Zimbabwe would be equal before the law.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Your first link disproves your point , if Zanu was socialist and nationalist then it wouldn't have policies favouring tribal , political or race groups would it as all people of Zimbabwe would be equal before the law.

Zanu-PF is both left-wing and nationalist.

[Marshal Murat]

Maniac you seem to have forgotten a link combining socialism and nationalism (and maybe fascism).

I believe it's called "Hillary Clinton".

[Tribesman]

Zanu-PF is both left-wing and nationalist.

But is it socialist ?

[InsaneApache]

But is it socialist ?

Was the German Workers' Party socialist?

[Adrian II]

What did North Korea do this time???Well, there you go, the Burmese junta is nationalist, authoritarian and xenophobic to the core, just like the North Korean regime.

There is an interesting theory that says most or all socialist governments until now have been essentially nationalist, using (internationalist) socialism only as a guise for their true (imperialist) ambitions. Indeed, if you look at the fate of militant socialist governments, particularly the authoritarian ones, many have transformed into outright nationalism: Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, North Korea and Burma fall within this category.

[Tribesman]

Was the German Workers' Party socialist?

Not in the slightest since the core is that all are born equal , since the workers party had at its core that whole tracts of society are born as sub-humans then it cannot have been socialist even though it used the word in its party title .

[Adrian II]

Was the German Workers' Party socialist?Are the Japanese Liberal Democrats liberals? Heck, for the longest part of the post-war period they weren't even democrats.

[Beirut]

If the Myanmarese don't let aid in, then bring it in anyway. Park an aircraft carrier nearby, establish control over the airspace, then just dump food and medicine where people are congregated.

Tell the military regime if they take one potshot at a relief plane, the next planes will dump rifles and ammo to the peasants and a MK84 right on the general's hacienda.

There is a time to act tough and use force and this is it.

Canada has a few CC-177s (C-17s), this is a perfect opportunity for us to use them. We should fill 'em up with medical supplies and get 'em over there.

[InsaneApache]

There is an interesting theory that says most or all socialist governments until now have been essentially nationalist, using (internationalist) socialism only as a guise for their true (imperialist) ambitions. Indeed, if you look at the fate of militant socialist governments, particularly the authoritarian ones, many have transformed into outright nationalism: Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, North Korea and Burma fall within this category.

A lot of my mates said this back in the 70s and most of them were Marxists/Trots. My reposte (as someone normal who saw things as they really were) was 'why do you bother then?'

You know what, they couldn't answer, they hadn't a clue.

Intellectual masturbation in my view.

[BigTex]

If the Myanmarese don't let aid in, then bring it in anyway. Park an aircraft carrier nearby, establish control over the airspace, then just dump food and medicine where people are congregated.

Tell the military regime if they take one potshot at a relief plane, the next planes will dump rifles and ammo to the peasants and a MK84 right on the general's hacienda.

There is a time to act tough and use force and this is it.

Canada has a few CC-177s (C-17s), this is a perfect opportunity for us to use them. We should fill 'em up with medical supplies and get 'em over there.

I doubt the Chinese would let that happen sitting down. A conflict involving Nato allies so close to them will probably make them a little uptight. Not to mention a revolt resulting in another pro western country near them will not make them very happy.

There are times to act with force, but this is not one of them. A tsunami is hardly a reason to involve ourselves in a burmese civil war, or to create one for that matter.


Do nothing: people will suffer.
Give money: prople will still suffer.
Invade: people will suffer.

Someone will suffer no matter what you do, but to what degree? Do nothing and recovery will take a very long time. Give money, and maybe some will filter down to relieve the suffering. Even the cruelest of dictatorships have a need to help in the wake such a massive natural disaster. Invade and involve yourself in a decades long low intensity war in the jungles and mountains of burma.

Really there's little to be done, donating to disaster relief is always innefficient and most wont get to the people who are suffering.

[Samurai Waki]

If the Myanmarese don't let aid in, then bring it in anyway. Park an aircraft carrier nearby, establish control over the airspace, then just dump food and medicine where people are congregated.

Tell the military regime if they take one potshot at a relief plane, the next planes will dump rifles and ammo to the peasants and a MK84 right on the general's hacienda.

There is a time to act tough and use force and this is it.

Canada has a few CC-177s (C-17s), this is a perfect opportunity for us to use them. We should fill 'em up with medical supplies and get 'em over there.

Or you could just use NATO airbases in Thailand, and Diego Garcia. :clown:

[Beirut]

I doubt the Chinese would let that happen sitting down. A conflict involving Nato allies so close to them will probably make them a little uptight. Not to mention a revolt resulting in another pro western country near them will not make them very happy.

There are times to act with force, but this is not one of them. A tsunami is hardly a reason to involve ourselves in a burmese civil war, or to create one for that matter.



I'm sure the Chinese could be dealt with somehow. As for interfering with or creating a civil war and this not being the time; if a 100,000+ people are possibly dead and another 100,000+ ready to die, and if this isn't the time to use force and interfere, when is the time?

[Ice]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1739053,00.html?cnn=yes

By Romesh Ratnesar

The disaster in Burma presents the world with perhaps its most serious humanitarian crisis since the 2004 Asian tsunami. By most reliable estimates, close to 100,000 people are dead. Delays in delivering relief to the victims, the inaccessibility of the stricken areas and the poor state of Burma's infrastructure and health systems mean that number is sure to rise. With as many as 1 million people still at risk, it is conceivable that the death toll will, within days, approach that of the entire number of civilians killed in the genocide in Darfur.

So what is the world doing about it? Not much. The military regime that runs Burma initially signaled it would accept outside relief, but has imposed so many conditions on those who would actually deliver it that barely a trickle has made it through. Aid workers have been held at airports. U.N. food shipments have been seized. U.S. naval ships packed with food and medicine idle in the Gulf of Thailand, waiting for an all-clear that may never come.

Burma's rulers have relented slightly, agreeing Friday to let in supplies and perhaps even some foreign relief workers. The government says it will allow a US C-130 transport plane to land inside Burma Monday. But it's hard to imagine a regime this insular and paranoid accepting robust aid from the U.S. military, let alone agreeing to the presence of U.S. Marines on Burmese soil — as Thailand and Indonesia did after the tsunami. The trouble is that the Burmese haven't shown the ability or willingness to deploy the kind of assets needed to deal with a calamity of this scale — and the longer Burma resists offers of help, the more likely it is that the disaster will devolve beyond anyone's control. "We're in 2008, not 1908," says Jan Egeland, the former U.N. emergency relief coordinator. "A lot is at stake here. If we let them get away with murder we may set a very dangerous precedent."

That's why it's time to consider a more serious option: invading Burma. Some observers, including former USAID director Andrew Natsios, have called on the U.S. to unilaterally begin air drops to the Burmese people regardless of what the junta says. The Bush Administration has so far rejected the idea — "I can't imagine us going in without the permission of the Myanmar government," Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday — but it's not without precedent: as Natsios pointed out to the Wall Street Journal, the U.S. has facilitated the delivery of humanitarian aid without the host government's consent in places like Bosnia and Sudan.

A coercive humanitarian intervention would be complicated and costly. During the 2004 tsunami, some 24 U.S. ships and 16,000 troops were deployed in countries across the region; the mission cost the U.S. $5 million a day. Ultimately, the U.S. pledged nearly $900 million to tsunami relief. (By contrast, it has offered just $3.25 million to Burma.) But the risks would be greater this time: the Burmese government's xenophobia and insecurity make them prone to view U.S. troops — or worse, foreign relief workers — as hostile forces. (Remember Black Hawk Down?) Even if the U.S. and its allies made clear that their actions were strictly for humanitarian purposes, it's unlikely the junta would believe them. "You have to think it through — do you want to secure an area of the country by military force? What kinds of potential security risks would that create?" says Egelend. "I can't imagine any humanitarian organization wanting to shoot their way in with food."

So what other options exist? Retired General William Nash of the Council on Foreign Relations says the U.S. should first pressure China to use its influence over the junta to get them to open up and then supply support to the Thai and Indonesian militaries to carry out relief missions. "We can pay for it — we can provide repair parts to the Indonesians so they can get their Air Force up. We can lend the them two C-130s and let them paint the Indonesian flag on them," Nash says. "We have to get the stuff to people who can deliver it and who the Burmese government will accept, even if takes an extra day or two and even if it's not as efficient as the good old U.S. military." Egeland advocates that the U.N. Security Council take punitive steps short of war, such as freezing the regime's assets and issuing warrants for the arrest of individual junta members if they were to leave the country. Similar measures succeeded in getting the government of Ivory Coast to let in foreign relief teams in 2002, Egelend says.

And if that fails? "It's important for the rulers to know the world has other options," Egeland says. "If there were, say, the threat of a cholera epidemic that could claim hundreds of thousands of lives and the government was incapable of preventing it, then maybe yes — you would intervene unilaterally." But by then, it could be too late. The cold truth is that states rarely undertake military action unless their national interests are at stake; and the world has yet to reach a consensus about when, and under what circumstances, coercive interventions in the name of averting humanitarian disasters are permissible. As the response to the 2004 tsunami proved, the world's capacity for mercy is limitless. But we still haven't figured out when to give war a chance.

I thought this would contribute to the thread.

[Marshal Murat]

The article was overall decent. I dislike the comparison to Black Hawk Down for a number of reasons, and the threat of military action seems so arbitrary. I think it's more a time where China can play G.I. Jong and try to reclaim the lost publicity from Tibet and Sudan. Whether it'll work or not is a different story.

Then again, I think that they should declare it a genocide, invade, annihilate the junta, and set up a government (preferably pro-western), close the door into China, and screw their plans to dominate the Indian Ocean.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

THe Burmese government is being quite rational about the whole thing.


U.S. Diplomat:

Offer = single payment of $obledey-gook

Demand = military access

Burmese Leader:

Answer = No, we do not think you would leave.




Besides, with records/missing expected to be shoddy anyway, sweeping a few thousand political murders under the rug should be easy -- they died in the cyclone, so sad -- but they've got to get the paperwork in line.

[Conradus]

I'm sure the Chinese could be dealt with somehow. As for interfering with or creating a civil war and this not being the time; if a 100,000+ people are possibly dead and another 100,000+ ready to die, and if this isn't the time to use force and interfere, when is the time?

When there's oil involved probably.
Though I'm not sure that putting another country into endless civil war is the humane thing to do right now, even if that delivers them from a junta.

[BigTex]

I'm sure the Chinese could be dealt with somehow. As for interfering with or creating a civil war and this not being the time; if a 100,000+ people are possibly dead and another 100,000+ ready to die, and if this isn't the time to use force and interfere, when is the time?

The time for force was before a massive natural disaster killed 200,000 and destroyed infrastructure and crops. Now is a time to heal, to help, to ease suffering not to heap more suffering onto them.

Now is a time for diplomacy, to sit down and ask what international charities can be allowed to do. Besides give money directly to the junta.

If Nato invades, what then? After thousands more are killed battles, more still killed from basic infrastructure being destroyed. Thousands more slowly dieing from starvation because food supply's have been disrupted by a war and a natural disaster, what then? What do you now do with that large chunk of land. What do you do then to ease the suffering? Food supplies will take awhile to reestablish in the jingles of burma. Repairing roads, electricity, sewage and many other things will take months.

How will a war ease the pains of the people who are already suffering from the wake of such a massive disaster?

[Beirut]

How will a war ease the pains of the people who are already suffering from the wake of such a massive disaster?

Oh goodness, I'm not saying make war for the sake of it, I'm saying that the situation is grave enough that the government must let the victims of the disaster receive aid. It is not the prerogative of any government to force its citizens to die rather than accept aid that could prevent their deaths. Their government must be required to accept aid and allow that aid to get to those who need it.

The UN, or whoever for that matter, may quote our dear uncle of Exeter, as he said to the French King, "If requiring fail, we will compel."

[Devastatin Dave]

Oh goodness, I'm not saying make war for the sake of it, I'm saying that the situation is grave enough that the government must let the victims of the disaster receive aid. It is not the prerogative of any government to force its citizens to die rather than accept aid that could prevent their deaths. Their government must be required to accept aid and allow that aid to get to those who need it.

The UN, or whoever for that matter, may quote our dear uncle of Exeter, as he said to the French King, "If requiring fail, we will compel."
Sorry my friend, that was tried in 1993, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29

I heard of a possible drops of supplies within the country without permission from the bastards that run the place. I've also heard the numbers are going to puch towards a million dead!!! God have mercy on these people.:no:

[Beirut]

Sorry my friend, that was tried in 1993, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29

Then try again.

A bugger up in Somalia fifteen-years ago is not a reason to let disaster victims die in perpetuity.

[Devastatin Dave]

Then try again.

A bugger up in Somalia fifteen-years ago is not a reason to let disaster victims die in perpetuity.
I'm not argueing against it, I'm just sure that the giving governments (US mainly) will be less likely to make that type of attempt again. Any attempt to give aid, such a dropping it without permission might mean the Burmese declaring war.
I'm on your side on this one Beirut, but I have a feeling that there will be very limited support due to prior instances and political risks.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Then try again.

A bugger up in Somalia fifteen-years ago is not a reason to let disaster victims die in perpetuity.

No, Don't Try it Again.


We Help These People, then they bite us in our :daisy: later. Do You Wish to see the pictures of the Somilias dragging US Soliders though the streets? I seen them, have you?


I mean, I don't really see countries helping the US half the time. Plus, We give these people free stuff, yet when we have a major diaster here, heh, we give them



LOANS


You Do Not Give These uncivlized countries free stuff, and your own people (we got starving kids here in the US to you know) loans and make them pay.


But Eh, no sense aruging against it, even though that's the logical option.

[Beirut]

No, Don't Try it Again.

We Help These People, then they bite us in our :daisy: later. Do You Wish to see the pictures of the Somilias dragging US Soliders though the streets? I seen them, have you?

That's far too convenient an excuse to stay in our shell and look only inwards. It takes guts to help people and a lot of people have the guts to do it. Thank God for them.


I mean, I don't really see countries helping the US half the time.

I don't see it as reasonable that the value of a person's life be measured on a scale of how much he has helped the US.


You Do Not Give These uncivlized countries free stuff...

Would you care to enlighten us with your standards of civilization that need be met in order for children to be fed?

[rory_20_uk]

Every day in countries all over the world Children die. In many the odds of them surviving post aid is greater than that in Burma. For bang per buck Burma is a poor choice.

It is fair not to see it reasonable to base the lives of others as only valuable in terms of one's own country, but it is as valid as the opposite position.

Merely saving the lives of children doesn't make or break a civilisation. And to emote the issue with "please think of the poor children" appears to be no more than padding to an argument.

~:smoking:

[Beirut]

Merely saving the lives of children doesn't make or break a civilisation.

Perhaps, but the act of helping may define one.


And to emote the issue with "please think of the poor children" appears to be no more than padding to an argument.

Unless of course "thinking of the poor children" is the issue.

[Caius]

Loans to control Myanmar?

[rory_20_uk]

Unless of course "thinking of the poor children" is the issue.

Why is it the lives of children are worth more than adults?

I agree that an empire is largely remembered by its actions for good or bad. Jumping at obvious plights doesn't make me think more of one though.

~:smoking:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

That's far too convenient an excuse to stay in our shell and look only inwards. It takes guts to help people and a lot of people have the guts to do it. Thank God for them.



I don't see it as reasonable that the value of a person's life be measured on a scale of how much he has helped the US.



Would you care to enlighten us with your standards of civilization that need be met in order for children to be fed?
No, Would you care to enlighten of how we can feed our children here in the US and help out people here, and not give them loans while we gives these Anti-American Countries Money.

Answer that first, then I'll answer your question.

[Beirut]

Why is it the lives of children are worth more than adults?

Never said they were. Though many of us do live by the tenet of women & children first. Granted, it's a bias. I don't think an unseemly or unhealthy one, though.


I agree that an empire is largely remembered by its actions for good or bad. Jumping at obvious plights doesn't make me think more of one though.

Not jumping, nor even skipping along, does make me think less, though.

[rory_20_uk]

Never said they were. Though many of us do live by the tenet of women & children first. Granted, it's a bias. I don't think an unseemly or unhealthy one, though.

But rather foolish nevertheless. Children will die far more easily from likely threats, be they hypothermia, shock, trauma or whatever. Women are less able to protect them than men are, due to less physical strength.

The siege of Leningrad was a good example of this: parents starved themselves to feed their children. When the parents died the children quickly followed with no one to look after them.

For best survival rates, it should be men, then women, then children then lastly the elderly.

~:smoking:

[Beirut]

But rather foolish nevertheless. Children will die far more easily from likely threats, be they hypothermia, shock, trauma or whatever. Women are less able to protect them than men are, due to less physical strength.

The siege of Leningrad was a good example of this: parents starved themselves to feed their children. When the parents died the children quickly followed with no one to look after them.

For best survival rates, it should be men, then women, then children then lastly the elderly.

~:smoking:

Maybe so, but there is a level of Darwinism in there that I could never ascribe to in real life.

[Beirut]

Answer that first, then I'll answer your question.

Umm... ok.


No, Would you care to enlighten of how we can feed our children here in the US and help out people here, and not give them loans while we gives these Anti-American Countries Money.

Irrespective of our desire to help our fellow man here at home, we have the ability to help our fellow man here at home. It is clearly a matter of expediency and choice. As we are awash in cashews & milk here in North America, and, as I believe, we are fundamentally good people, then we have an obligation to others as well as ourselves to help. (The Hebrew word for charity translates as duty. I like that.)

To take the other side, people with little often give much because they understand the depravity of destitution and are willing to sacrifice to help their fellow man. It is that example that defines the very best of us.

[Devastatin Dave]

Why is it the lives of children are worth more than adults?

.

~:smoking:
When you have one one day, you'll understand.

To Beirut...
Again, I was not argueing against your idea, in fact, I'm all for it, the only problem is that it is not up to you or I. The US, Canada, Britain, and other nations that usually have the testicular fortitude that many UN parasite nations don't have will NOT violate this nation's soverinty in the manor in which you describe. You see, when you go to countries that are being run by murderous dictators and overthrow them or try to change their oppressive regimes, it creates a lot of bad press and many in the world will call you a cowboy, occupier, crusader, or whatever. Strangly enough I believe I've heard you say the same thing for a few years now when something similar to what you are suggesting happened. There is no way in hell the US or any other of the Western countries will EVER get involved in stopping genocides or attempting to assist those within failed states. Now, we will just have to sit back and watch millions die because of global politics and buerocracies.:no:

[Tribesman]

You see, when you go to countries that are being run by murderous dictators and overthrow them or try to change their oppressive regimes, it creates a lot of bad press and many in the world will call you a cowboy, occupier, crusader, or whatever.
Actually Dave I think many in the world only call them that when it is done by hypocrits who do so over a pile of obvious lies and to top it all off make a complete balls of it , but hey don't let little things like that put you out of victim mode eh .
BTW didn't your country get widely criticised for its poor performance at disaster response and didn't it refuse aid and assistance from some countries .:idea2: global politics and beaurocracy eh :yes:

[Devastatin Dave]

Actually Dave I think many in the world only call them that when it is done by hypocrits who do so over a pile of obvious lies and to top it all off make a complete balls of it , but hey don't let little things like that put you out of victim mode eh .
BTW didn't your country get widely criticised for its poor performance at disaster response and didn't it refuse aid and assistance from some countries .:idea2: global politics and beaurocracy eh :yes:
When your country does 1/100 the amount of aid and assistance my country does, then your criticism will have any meaning to me.:yes:

[Beirut]

When your little _________ country does 1/100 the amount of aid and assistance my country does, then your criticism will have any meaning to me.:yes:


Let the meaningfullness roll. :sunny:


National giving as a percent of GDP (2005)
According to the Charities Aid Foundation [1],

1. United States - 1.67%
2. United Kingdom - .73%
3. Canada - .72%
4. Australia - .69%
5. South Africa - .64%
6. Ireland - .47%
7. Netherlands - .45%
8. Singapore - .29%
9. New Zealand - .29%
10. Turkey - .23%
11. Germany - .22%
12. France - .14%

[edit] Private donations


Public donations (2006)
According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development[3],

1. United States - $22.739 billion
2. United Kingdom - $12.607 billion
3. Japan - $11.608 billion
4. France - $10.448 billion
5. Germany - $10.351 billion
6. Netherlands - $5.452 billion
7. Sweden - $3.962 billion
8. Spain - $3.801 billion
9. Canada - $3.731 billion
10. Italy - $3.672 billion
11. Norway - $2.946 billion
12. Denmark - $2.234 billion
13. Australia - $2.128 billion
14. Belgium - $1.968 billion
15. Switzerland - $1.647 billion
16. Austria - $1.513 billion
17. Ireland - $997 million
18. Finland - $826 million
19. Portugal - $391 million
20. Greece - $384 million
21. Luxembourg - $291 million
22. New Zealand - $257 million

[Crazed Rabbit]

HahahahaHAhahaha!

Oh man, Beirut, that's hilarious. You copied that from Wiki and cut the stat they had for private giving from the US.

Because, of course, that number you snipped out defeats your whole post, because Americans gave $295,000,000,000, or 295 billion dollars, to charity in 2006. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm)

The Irish? Not so much (http://www.amarach.com/asset/docs/Good_Intentions_Research_Briefing_July2005.pdf) - less than ~800 million in 2005 (at the current high Euro value against the dollar).

So they have still quite a ways to go to give 1/100 as much as Americans do.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

CR

[Beirut]

Too bad. Don't care. My good intentions trump your negatorial triumphalism. :smoking:

God Save Ireland!

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not sure forcing aid upon the people would be the best option. Unfortunately, the nationalist government would no doubt whip up some patriotism and soon there would be fighting over the aid etc. And there's not many better places for a long, drawn out, guerilla-style civil war.

Although IIRC there are a lot of quite strictly oppressed ethnic minorities in Burma who would be quite happy to be liberated.

[Tribesman]

When your little craphole country does 1/100 the amount of aid and assistance my country does, then your criticism will have any meaning to me.
hey dave , when my little craphole of a country supports genocidal maniacs , overthrows democracies and acts like the biggest arse in the "civilised" world then perhaps you can make a comment that has any meaning to anyone regarding the subject .

But besides that which is most obvious to anyone apart from the most brain dead muppet ,the post which you attempted to responded to yet studiously try to avoid....BTW didn't your country get widely criticised for its poor performance at disaster response and didn't it refuse aid and assistance from some countries .
hmmmmm...true or false ?
does the truth hurt ?
does it diminish your errrr....."arguement":yes:
How about the other bit of the post you took offence at ., you know the poor big victim crap.....Actually Dave I think many in the world only call them that when it is done by hypocrits who do so over a pile of obvious lies and to top it all off make a complete balls of it , but hey don't let little things like that put you out of victim mode eh .
...any worthwhile response ....or is the truth too painful for your flag wrapped patriotic persona to accept ?

Oh BTW Rabbit , you may crow about those figures that are based on "charitable" donations obtained from tax returns and claims for deductions , but you clearly misunderstand the Irish approach to tax returns so your figures mean bugger all:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Though of course it would be far easier to just point out that you cannot do mathematics at all Rabbit...unless of corse you thought that 1:100 of 273 million people can have some strange relation to the same sum of 1:100 from 273 million when it is only 4 million people . But hey keep on counting every penny in the church plate for deduction purposes , I know it makes you feel better about yourself:2thumbsup:

[rory_20_uk]

When you have one one day, you'll understand.

No, not my children or family which of course are more important than anyone or anything in the world, but other people's children.

~:smoking:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Though of course it would be far easier to just point out that you cannot do mathematics at all Rabbit...unless of corse you thought that 1:100 of 273 million people can have some strange relation to the same sum of 1:100 from 273 million when it is only 4 million people . But hey keep on counting every penny in the church plate for deduction purposes , I know it makes you feel better about yourself:2thumbsup:

:inquisitive: I've never written off Church offerings as deductions. And I don't know the custom in Ireland, or more importantly perhaps, your customs, but here we don't put pennies in the collection plates.

And yes, the large population difference is somewhat the point.


Too bad. Don't care. My good intentions trump your negatorial triumphalism.

Reminds me of biofuel and food riots.

CR