Spore and Mass Effect copyright protection discussion [Archive]

Husar

05-07-2008, 08:21

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/52547

BioWare technical producer Derek French has said that the PC versions of both Mass Effect and Spore will make use of copy protection that will require online validation every ten days in order for the games to continue working.
My German news source also said you can install them on 3 PCs and that's it. Such things were lifted in BioShock, but will EA do that?

I wonder whether this will increase their income or whether the copy production will reduce sales by more than piracy would because this particular copy protection is one of the worst I can imagine. :thumbsdown:

Martok

05-07-2008, 08:39

Copy protection requiring online validation every ten days? Blech; forget that. Guess I won't be getting Spore now. :no:

Mikeus Caesar

05-07-2008, 09:15

Validation every ten days!?

Sod that.

I guess i won't be getting it.

*mouse cursor idly wanders over to the address bar, and starts typing absolutely nothing illegal at all, and instead goes to hellokitty.com while thinking of possibly just boycotting Spore*

Kekvit Irae

05-07-2008, 09:39

TB666

05-07-2008, 11:23

I have Mass Effect on the 360, so I don't need it for the PC anyway. And as for Spore, why not? The only people who should really worry are those without legitimate copies. After all, Spore does use an internet connection anyway, so it's not like you're making an extra effort to validate.
However if you go on vacation or something for more then 10 days then well you can't play it when you get back.
These type of copy protection system are just stupid.
It only encourage people to pirate games.
Instead of punishing those that buy games how about actually rewarding them ??

Here is a nice interview with Chris Taylor and Brad Wardell CEO of Stardock
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/24/joystiq-interview-demigod-sins-and-the-death-of-pc-gaming

A highlighted bit

What's your response to the belief that PC gaming is dying?

BW - Oh absolutely. It's not just dying, it's already dead. Totally. In fact...all game developers that feel that way should quickly flee to the, um ... console market, right now. Don't worry about us, we'll guard you're back while you retreat. Nothing to see here. We'll shut the lights off when you're all gone. No, no, no need to thank us at all. We just want to make sure the developers who think PC gaming is dying are safe to flee to greener pastures. We're just that selfless.

CT – (Laughs) Okay, so I'll give a slightly more "serious" answer. I've said that PC Gaming "as we know it" is dying, but there is a new kind of PC gaming being born out the ashes. Brad is definitely leading this charge with his innovative approach, and I am 100% in support of this. It's like what Sam Walton once said when asked how to succeed, he said, "Do what everyone else isn't doing." And this is exactly the case here. Remove this awful copy protection, and give your customers the great experience they deserve. Brad has a model which bucks the old system, and it's time to buck the old system, because the old system wasn't working ... it is, in fact, dead.

FactionHeir

05-07-2008, 11:50

As I've said on various other fora, the best way to ensure people buy your games is to reward those that do rather than penalize everyone.

Anyone remember in the old days when any game you bought would be in a large box complete with a manual of a hundred or more pages, a color map, and generally nice layout of the box that you could be happy about each time you looked at it?

Nowadays, that seems to have become confined to extra expensive "collector's editions", and even those don't have the great manuals of old and replaced that with copy protection.

All this fuss about cutting costs and making profits and bringing out games that are at best in beta stage for an open, paid, beta test where not everything will even get fixed in the end. *sigh*

As for above copy protection, it sounds easier to beat than some of the others out there by the looks of it, so the companies are really just wasting money paying royalties for them rather than using that money to make customers happy or at least just fill their own purses.

TinCow

05-07-2008, 13:55

As I've said on various other fora, the best way to ensure people buy your games is to reward those that do rather than penalize everyone.

Hear, hear.

naut

05-07-2008, 14:17

EA doesn't want you to copy buy Spore and Mass Effect for the PC
~;p

I think it's far enough that it wont really harm those who legitimately bought it,
but it's going to be such a hassle. And no doubt hackers/pirates will find a way
to circumnavigate it any way.

Tamur

05-07-2008, 14:58

If you're not validating every ten days, how can EA accurately target in-game advertising at you? This is for your own good, you know.

On the slightly less sarcastic side, my boys were dying to play a racing game a couple of years ago, and I found I could download the one they wanted off of D2D or other such service. Nice and easy download, I install it, start it up, online validation. Hmm, I think, ok I'll do it since I just bought the fleeping game and this should be just once. Five days later, online validation. Hmm, I think, this could be an issue. Two weeks later, the boys want to play the game. Our internet connection is flaky at the moment. Online validation again.

Sorry boys, we don't own the game, we're just renting it, and the landlords are out at the moment. I uninstalled it and have rather bitter feelings about the $40 I wasted. Not making that mistake again, even for Spore.

frogbeastegg

05-07-2008, 14:58

I too have the 360 version of Mass Effect. If I didn't then I doubt I'd ever play it; I'm becoming less and less tolerant of this kind of anti-piracy measure. Getting GalCiv2 2 years ago marked a turning point, though I didn't know it at the time and it took the release of Sins of a Solar Empire to make that clear.

Stardock are awesome. I was very sceptical at the start with GalCiv2 but they had me converted by the second patch. You get a good game, you get treated like a valued customer, and you get guaranteed updates and excellent post release support. That's win, win, win. There is but one problem with their model - I find that it makes me reluctant to return to 'normal' PC games. Similar to the way the introduction of all of that unskippable "Don't pirate and now we've hammered that message at you here are some trailers you don't care about or want to watch!" rubbish on the start of DVDs has put me off watching them. It's amazing how such (relatively) small things irritate.

Anyone remember in the old days when any game you bought would be in a large box complete with a manual of a hundred or more pages, a color map, and generally nice layout of the box that you could be happy about each time you looked at it?
Yup, and I still have my favourite games' boxes. I ran out of space and so had to get rid of the rest. Heartbreaking. I did keep all of the manuals and such, and filed them inside the boxes I kept. The present day DVD boxes are more practical and a lot easier to store and yet I do miss my chunky boxes.

I remember that one of the games I got came with a free proper 600+ page history book on the beginnings of human civilisation in addition to the usual 100 page manual, tech tree, poster, and keycard. That wasn't a super special edition either.

[Mod's note: let's not have anything about pirating the games instead, or about applying cracks to a legitimate copy of the game. The org rules do not support discussion of either. Thanks]

Fragony

05-07-2008, 15:17

Never copied a game or downloaded a movie in my life. Sometimes I wonder why. Friend of mine does and sometimes he gives me a few movies, the lack of unskippable ' thou shalt not steal' is almost a reason to join the naughties, just not enough.

Veho Nex

05-07-2008, 15:24

like some one mentioned above it is easier to 'pirate' games that require online validation. A quick google search brought up 5 different methods, ranging from deleting certain ingame files to having your game 'validate' through a filter. Seems like EA might lose mroe money because of this validation process than they would make.

drone

05-07-2008, 15:37

This is why this form of protection is unacceptable:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080422-drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.html
This isn't some small company with money problems, this is Microsoft.

What EA is proposing here is even more ridiculous. There is nothing to keep EA from pulling the plug at any time, and then you are screwed. I stayed away from BioShock because of their activation DRM, and I'll be staying away from these games as well.

TinCow

05-07-2008, 15:51

EA will definitely lose money on this. Both Spore and Mass Effect were on my "auto-purchase" list, but I am seriously considering dropping both because I swore I would never tolerate this again after the major pain that was Bioshock. That's $100 that they're losing from me right there.

FactionHeir

05-07-2008, 16:19

You did buy Crysis tho :tongue2:

TinCow

05-07-2008, 16:36

Crysis did not have anywhere near this level of draconian security measures. I don't like disk-checking software, but it's not a deal breaker for me. The crap they did with Bioshock definitely is, though. I will not go through that again.

Zenicetus

05-07-2008, 17:20

I have Mass Effect on the 360, so I don't need it for the PC anyway. And as for Spore, why not? The only people who should really worry are those without legitimate copies. After all, Spore does use an internet connection anyway, so it's not like you're making an extra effort to validate.

It's not about the idea in the abstract, it's about the exact mechanics of how they implement this. If the game "phones home" every ten days, and it only does that when I boot up the game, and there's no appreciable delay in loading, and there is no other impact on the integrity of my computer or personal data, then I can live with that. As you point out, it looks like Spore will need a live 'Net connection anyway.

Here's what I can't live with, and it's all about the implementation details:

Does the game phone home and transfer any marketing data in the background?

Does the game place hidden files on my system that won't be removed when the game is un-installed, and that can't be removed in any easy way by the user, and that cause problems with other programs or leave possible back doors open for hackers? This, of course, is what CA did with the Kingdoms expansion that uses SecureROM, and why a lot of us didn't buy it.

If there is an arbitrary number of limited activations, is the number fewer than would be reasonable for the average gamer?

Until those questions are answered, I don't think I could consider buying these games, as much as I'm interested in them.

There is another issue too... the question of long-term replayability. A really good game is something I might finish and then come back to, a year or more down the road. Will the game company still be around then? Are they making any kind of committment to release a patch that removes the activation if, at some point, they're not able to keep their activation servers online? I don't usually keep shooters like Mass Effect on the hard drive that long, but it's a relevant question with something that has the potential to be a "classic" like Spore, if it lives up to the hype.

drone

05-07-2008, 17:44

You fire Mass Effect up on Monday, it checks in and does it's thing. You then take your laptop with you and go on a vacation the next week to, say, Alaska, and have no connection. Then the snows pile in, and you are stuck inside. So on Thursday, you decide to fight off the cabin fever with a little Mass Effect. Rescue workers find you and the bodies of your family members a few days later. ~D

Zenicetus

05-07-2008, 18:30

Something else occurred to me... if I understand this right, Spore populates worlds with AI-driven creature designs created by other players. So why doesn't EA just use the Blizzard/WoW model, and store those on a company server that can only be logged into if you have a legit copy and user account? With the WoW client, Blizzard does use some low-level code to check for cheating (bots, etc.), but it's nowhere near as intrusive and nasty as SecureRom, or limited activations.

I suppose that wouldn't work if they're planning on saving money and distributing alien creatures via direct P2P between players or something. But it seems like a golden opportunity to use a very relaxed and non-invasive CP method. You don't pay for a legit copy, you don't get creatures to run your designs against as opponents.

Privateerkev

05-07-2008, 18:36

Anyone remember in the old days when any game you bought would be in a large box complete with a manual of a hundred or more pages, a color map, and generally nice layout of the box that you could be happy about each time you looked at it?

I remember when games had full novels in them in addition to a massive manual.

It's how I got my copy of Das Boot (or The Boat) :yes:

Kekvit Irae

05-07-2008, 19:23

I remember when games had full novels in them in addition to a massive manual.

It's how I got my copy of Das Boot (or The Boat) :yes:

The only games I remember getting that had a book with it was Dragonworld for the C-64 and Companions of Xanth for DOS. Dragonworld is still one of my favorite novels, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to play the game. Companions of Xanth was a bad game coupled with an equally bad book. Xanth died many, many years ago from stale puns.
If by "book" you mean "grossly-huge manual", then that award goes to 688-i Hunter Killer. I would have better luck trying to figure out how to drive a submarine by joining the Navy than by reading that monster.

Zenicetus

05-07-2008, 19:31

I remember when games had full novels in them in addition to a massive manual.

The Internet and common broadband killed that model. It used to be that you got a well-tested game with relatively few problems, and a huge manual, because the game devs couldn't do anything more after the game was released. They had to get it right the first time out the door. No update patching, no half-finished games. The manual writer knew what the final game looked like during the long internal beta period, and had time to write a polished manual. That's all gone now... publishers know enough PC gamers will accept a half-finished game with the promise of a patch down the road, if the game is exciting enough and generates enough pre-release online buzz.

Back to the CP issue, it looks like EQ will be using one of the nastier flavors of our old buddy SecureROM for these games. This was posted on the Bioware forum (found it on a Slashdot link, they're talking about it over there too):

Derek French
Technical Producer
Posted: Saturday, 03 May 2008 04:20PM

Mass Effect uses SecuROM and requires an online activation for the first time that you play it. Each copy of Mass Effect comes with a CD Key which is used for this activation and for registration here at the BioWare Community. Mass Effect does not require the DVD to be in the drive in order to play, it is only for installation.

After the first activation, SecuROM requires that it re-check with the server within ten days (in case the CD Key has become public/warez'd and gets banned). Just so that the 10 day thing doesn't become abrupt, SecuROM tries its first re-check with 5 days remaining in the 10 day window. If it can't contact the server before the 10 days are up, nothing bad happens and the game still runs. After 10 days a re-check is required before the game can run.

Also, he confirmed (at least for now) just 3 activations before the game locks and you have to call customer support on the phone, and beg for a re-activation.

Spino

05-07-2008, 19:34

This kind of copy protection will probably wind up being yet another useless gesture in the face of a determined, high IQ pirate/hacker community.

I'm a very naughty boy.

The phrase "The best defense is a good offense" holds true here and I'm not talking about DRM, Congressional lobbies or heavy handed legal recriminations against offenders. Make an effort to publish a better game and the people will fork over their beloved cash so they can play it. Clearly the 'quality content' argument is lost to money people who couldn't draw, sing, compose or animate to save their lives, let alone recognize such talent.

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-08-2008, 06:26

People who pirate a game probably wouldn't buy it if they couldn't copy it. Stop worrying about piracy and sell to the people who will buy.

Also, release more demos before releasing the actual game. It's a huge turn-off for me at least to see that the demo will come after the game's release.

Xiahou

05-08-2008, 06:39

I have somewhat less a problem with this for Spore, as it's an online game anyhow- although I still don't like it. For Mass Effect, on the other hand, it's completely unnecessary and unjustifiable, imo. I didn't buy Bioshock because of this nonsense and won't be buying Mass Effect either for the same reason. :no:

I've got too many games anyhow, this is one less to worry about getting.

ElectricEel

05-08-2008, 09:53

That's two games I won't be buying, then. I'm not going to support the use of hare-brained copy-protection schemes that inconvenience only legit customers.

Lemur

05-08-2008, 14:18

Privateerkev

05-08-2008, 15:26

The only games I remember getting that had a book with it was Dragonworld for the C-64 and Companions of Xanth for DOS. Dragonworld is still one of my favorite novels, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to play the game. Companions of Xanth was a bad game coupled with an equally bad book. Xanth died many, many years ago from stale puns.
If by "book" you mean "grossly-huge manual", then that award goes to 688-i Hunter Killer. I would have better luck trying to figure out how to drive a submarine by joining the Navy than by reading that monster.

By book I mean an actual novel. I got "the Boat" from a submarine game that I can't remember. (the game sucked but the book was good.) And I got Flight of the Old Dog from the game, Megafortress. Again the game sucked but the book got me into that author and he was pretty good at the Clancy style techno-thrillers.

I remember when manuals actually had a real story in the beginning like Midwinter. Real actual background and plot...

I also remember them being huge because each page would have a unique piece of information that the game would ask for as a copyright check. They figured no one would photo-copy a 200 page manual. Oh how wrong they were...

Kekvit Irae

05-08-2008, 16:05

By book I mean an actual novel. I got "the Boat" from a submarine game that I can't remember. (the game sucked but the book was good.) And I got Flight of the Old Dog from the game, Megafortress. Again the game sucked but the book got me into that author and he was pretty good at the Clancy style techno-thrillers.

I remember when manuals actually had a real story in the beginning like Midwinter. Real actual background and plot...

I also remember them being huge because each page would have a unique piece of information that the game would ask for as a copyright check. They figured no one would photo-copy a 200 page manual. Oh how wrong they were...

I remember old style RPGs that came either with a comic (a few Atari games) or a "choose your own adventure book" style of manual, where you were told to flip to page 42 instead of being told what was going on in-game (Dragon Wars). Annoying, but they stuff a whole lot of crap into those manuals, which is good filler to read.
Sadly, those days are long gone, since it seems like the game producers think the average IQ of a gamer is less than a rock (re: Madden and GTA gamers). The days of "smart" mainstream games have long since been over with.

frogbeastegg

05-08-2008, 16:38

3 activations is stingier than Bioshock. I lost one of my Bioshock activations because something broke so I couldn't remove it via the uninstaller. I had to delete the directory and regedit the entries away. I have never been able to discover what went wrong.

I also remember them being huge because each page would have a unique piece of information that the game would ask for as a copyright check. They figured no one would photo-copy a 200 page manual. Oh how wrong they were...
Some of those checks were really very cute. Ah, the days of spelling out words in the Aurabesh in TIE Fighter ...

Privateerkev

05-08-2008, 16:59

Some of those checks were really very cute. Ah, the days of spelling out words in the Aurabesh in TIE Fighter ...

I remember that being in X-Wing. Once I misplaced my manual and spent all afternoon plugging in symbols... :/

I remember old style RPGs that came either with a comic (a few Atari games) or a "choose your own adventure book" style of manual, where you were told to flip to page 42 instead of being told what was going on in-game (Dragon Wars). Annoying, but they stuff a whole lot of crap into those manuals, which is good filler to read.
Sadly, those days are long gone, since it seems like the game producers think the average IQ of a gamer is less than a rock (re: Madden and GTA gamers). The days of "smart" mainstream games have long since been over with.

I think my mom still has a couple of those Atari comics.

As for smart games, I remember the old ones where you actually had to type what you wanted your character to do. Now your mouse just changes when you can open a door or walk to a new room.

Sorry if I am derailing this topic but my posts are part of a larger discussion regarding the work companies used to put into games. As well as older forms of copyright protection. :beam:

Ramses II CP

05-08-2008, 21:04

Ahh, the good old days. My favorite PC game of all time had nearly no copy protection, it was just good. I bought four copies at various times, won two others ones via various means (Three are still in the box), bought the (Stupid, useless) strategy guide, and even picked up the sound track. I don't see much hope for that kind of (mutually profitable) gaming experience coming around again.

Oh, and about the photocopying 200 page manuals, I actually memorized the word pairs for the copy protection on the Dark Queen of Krynn series, if anyone remembers those. Not really made an effort to do it, just punched 'em in so often I knew them off the top of my head.

I had already given up on Mass Effect, but it's a bit sad to take a pass on Spore as well. :shrug:

Mostly I think it's the big business of PC games that is dying, and frankly, good riddance to most of it. Gaming's version of iTunes will be along soon enough to wipe them and their laughable 'protection' schemes out.

:egypt:

Zenicetus

05-08-2008, 21:09

Just gonna confirm that this story is legit, and then I'm off to cancel my pre-order for Mass Effect.

-edit-

Looks legitimate (http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=628724&forum=125), order canceled. Too bad. I was looking forward to that game.

Even that information from the developer is disingenuous:

"Q: How many installations will SecuROM allow from my copy of MEPC?

A: Since SecuROM has nothing to do with the installer, you can install and uninstall on the same machine over and over again without any problems. SecuROM also allows you to activate the game on 3 different machines."

Right, as long as you don't make any significant hardware changes like hard drive swaps or OS upgrades that trigger SecureROM's system profiling, so it thinks its running on a new machine.

The FAQ also doesn't address whether the SecureROM files and profiling will be removed when the game is un-installed, which is a critical point for many of us. It's a mega-thread so I didn't read it all to see if that was answered down-thread, but prior history on SecureROM removal (with a game uninstall) hasn't been good.

TinCow

05-08-2008, 21:17

Oh, and about the photocopying 200 page manuals, I actually memorized the word pairs for the copy protection on the Dark Queen of Krynn series, if anyone remembers those. Not really made an effort to do it, just punched 'em in so often I knew them off the top of my head.

I remember those, though I only played Champions of Krynn and Death Knights of Krynn. The former was copied from a friend and I did indeed have the 150-200 page manual photocopied, partially for the copy protection. Castles and Castles II, by Interplay, also had similar copy protection where they asked you words from the manual. The original Castles only asked on install and when changing settings. The sequel asked after a few months of playtime and gave you multiple choice answers.

I also remember (not so fondly) the code-wheel style. That was used for Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (Lucasarts), and I think you had to match plane bodies with nose art. I vaguely recall some kind of secret decoder page copyright protection for some random TMNT game. It had a red plastic window that you had to place over the words to read them. This thwarted simple photocopying, because a the color contrast of the ink was lost, making the red window thing useless and the words unintelligible.

Kekvit Irae

05-08-2008, 21:53

Ramses II CP

05-09-2008, 01:54

Myth: The Fallen Lords

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(computer_game_series)

A buddy of mine still runs a MP server for the game (And it's sequels, and Marathon) here:

http://www.mariusnet.com/

Hilariously ugly webpage with a review of the game from 1996:

http://www.csoon.com/issue21/p_bungie.htm

One of the TFL CDs I have is signed by the Bungie guys. It was a grand old game, from the halcyon days of gaming, when we surfed uphill over snowy old telephone wires with creaky 28.8 modems and we liked it! :laugh4:

Okay, thread derailment halted. The old man is tottering back to his shelf of DOS games while cackling to himself. :clown:

:egypt:

Praxil

05-09-2008, 10:56

I got X360 Mass Effect. And I got to admit it's a beautiful thing, the fact that assuming my X360 and its controller will work let's say after 10 years from now. I can simply hook up my X360, get Mass Effect in to the drive and play the game if I want to. That thought feels great as a matter in fact, I really get that kind of feeling that I own the product.

The cold fact that these servers could be shut down at any time, and that leading to a situation where you won't be able to play that game. That is simply not acceptable.

I think that the "activating games online" is the future. In the end most of the games will require some kind of "check" to a server, either during the installation or when the game is installed. You know this is the thing that I keep hearing that PC games are so much less expensive and all that. When internet plays so huge role in it (to update/mod/even to install the game), and you have to pay for it. It's kind of funny how people ignore that fact, or simply forget it.

I think that this is nothing... I mean, I'm waiting for the information on how will Empire: Total War be protected. Yeah...

Lemur

05-09-2008, 13:42

This (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1645) pretty much sums up my feelings:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/comic_mass_effect.jpg

Abokasee

05-09-2008, 16:38

WHAAAAAAAAT? Every 10 days? ok 1 every 2 months or 3 would be much more conveniant, since virtually no one goes on holiday, EA (Evil of Axis) is beggining to get on my nerve, EA seems to be forgetting that a unhappy a community is one you don't profit from... its a shame we have to threaten there wallets to get what we want. (Free unlockable weapons in BF:BC anyone?)

All this "Sucruity" is getting on my nerves, Securom blows, I no intention of breathing it in.

edyzmedieval

05-09-2008, 18:01

Lemur

05-09-2008, 18:15

If you like that, you're gonna love this:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/20080509.jpg

Martok

05-09-2008, 18:25

If you like that, you're gonna love this:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/20080509.jpg
LOL. I love Penny Arcade. :laugh4:

Martok

05-09-2008, 23:07

Well it looks like EA has backed (http://kotaku.com/5008454/spore-removes-10+day-reauthentication) off (http://kotaku.com/5008452/bioware-backs-down-from-draconian-mass-effect-authentication) from the recently-announced protection schemes for both games, and is now going with the more standard SecuROM crap we're more familiar with.

A partial victory for anti-Orwellian forces, I suppose. Yay(?)!

(Note to FBE and Kekvit Irae: Feel free to merge this with the other thread if you think it's warranted.)

pevergreen

05-09-2008, 23:48

is now considering buying spore

Zenicetus

05-10-2008, 01:01

Yeah, there's a similar post on that kotaku site that they're also doing this for the PC version of Mass Effect.

What infuriates me is that nobody, in these Q&A posts with the devs, bothers to ask if the hidden, low-level copy protection will be removed when you uninstall the game. It's not just about the immediate hassles of what you have to do, to play the @#&$* game, it's about what crap they're going to leave behind on your system, at a very deep and hidden level of the OS, after you uninstall the game, and that could conflict with other software on your system, or open hidden back doors to malware.

Makes me crazy.

Also, notice how this is a big argument against cross-platform game titles. A publisher can afford to alienate a percentage of PC gamers, if they know they have secured revenue from console sales for the same title. It's a much bigger risk for a PC-only title.

I think many of us are at a breaking point with this nonsense, where we're hardcore PC gamers and we don't want to buy a console just to play something like Spore. There are still enough non-invasive PC games out there like The Witcher, GalCiv2, etc. to keep us busy. I'd like to play Spore, but not at this cost, and not if it's going to infect my computer with non-removable hidden software agents with access to the Internet.

I hope CA is watching these developments carefully, since (AFAIK) Empire: Total War is a PC-only game, right? It's not my favorite time period, but I'm looking forward to buying it... and only if it doesn't go down this massively invasive DRM road.

Csargo

05-10-2008, 01:41

This (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1645) pretty much sums up my feelings:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/comic_mass_effect.jpg

:laugh4:

About the issue. The thing that really gets me is this:

As with BioShock, you only get to activate the game three times.

Who in there right mind would buy a game they can only install 3 times?! THREE?! That's just craziness in my mind. You've bought the game that should be enough.

Whacker

05-10-2008, 03:05

Who in there right mind would buy a game they can only install 3 times?! THREE?! That's just craziness in my mind. You've bought the game that should be enough.

Quite a few people in these forums actually. That's what I find so sad, that people are that willing to give up control of their own property (and security thereof) for a game. It's a bit of a stretch but it reminds me quite a bit of the Soup Nazi story. Oh well, just another example of one of the many reasons I quit gaming cold turkey there for a few months. /shrug

Csargo

05-10-2008, 03:08

Quite a few people in these forums actually. That's what I find so sad, that people are that willing to give up control of their own property (and security thereof) for a game. It's a bit of a stretch but it reminds me quite a bit of the Soup Nazi story. Oh well, just another example of one of the many reasons I quit gaming cold turkey there for a few months. /shrug

You disappeared from the chat. We were all under the impression that u was deadzies.

I agree with your post.

naut

05-10-2008, 03:36

Yey! I'm so glad. They'll certainly be getting money from me now!

frogbeastegg

05-10-2008, 14:51

Who in there right mind would buy a game they can only install 3 times?! THREE?! That's just craziness in my mind. You've bought the game that should be enough.
Speaking for myself, the revelation that it was included came too late. I didn't know about the registry problems until after I'd installed the Bioshock demo. The registry issue made me unhappy, but by that point I was planning to wipe my PC so playing the full game didn't matter. I liked the demo. I liked the game concept. It had been so long since I last played anything like this; literally years. So I got the game, planning on doing a full system reinstall after I'd completed it. A few hours later I learned all about the limited installs and other 'surprises'. To say I was not happy would be an understatement. I just didn't see the point in ranting on the forums; it's not as if those with any control over DRM on games read the arena.

A while later I tried to uninstall Bioshock. The uninstaller couldn't find it. The directory was there, the short cuts were there, and it showed up in add/remove programs. There was no way to remove it in a way the DRM would consider legitimate. Bang goes one of my activations. I won't lose any more; I won't be installing it again.

As it turns out, I truly enjoyed Bioshock - on the 360. Best duplicate Christmas present ever.

News of heavy-handed DRM is spreading much sooner now, as we've seen with Mass Effect and Spore. That makes it easier to avoid, like Starforce was.

naut

05-10-2008, 14:55

After the above post, maybe not after all. Sounds like a hell of alot of hassle just to play a game, and legitimately to boot.

woad&fangs

05-10-2008, 16:00

So Spore doesn't have SecuRom any more? Good, now I can look forward to the pure awsomeness that is spore.

All I can say is WOW!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=407ykCgLhOU&feature=related

Martok

05-10-2008, 16:58

So Spore doesn't have SecuRom any more? Good, now I can look forward to the pure awsomeness that is spore.

All I can say is WOW!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=407ykCgLhOU&feature=related
No, Spore (and Mass Effect) still *do* have Securom -- it's just not going to be as invasive as the version announced a few days ago. (Which means it's still a pain, just not as much as the version that was originally going to be used.) :thumbsdown:

Abokasee

05-11-2008, 09:28

(In Response to the news)

BOOHYAAAA!!!!!

I'll get a slight sting in my eye rather than 2 steel toe cap boots in my face and a twisted nipples

Lemur

05-20-2008, 21:45

Well, news is that MEPC went gold, so there's zero chance they're going to back down any further on their product activation. The three-install limit is in place for good.

Very sad. I wanted to play this game.

Whacker

05-20-2008, 22:15

You know what's going to be utterly precious about this whole fiasco...

The game is going to be released. Some, but not all, of the potential gamer base are going to wisen up and make the decision not to purchase this based on the facist copyright 'protection'. Sales aren't going to be what's expected, and EA is then going to immediately blame the problem on piracy. You heard it here first folks.

Timsup2nothin

05-20-2008, 23:56

Whacker, that is a brilliant prediction.

I'm going to list three things I have done, then rant briefly.

One) I once went to a local community production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Cats." Since that day, I have been having impure thoughts about felines.

Two) I installed a game purchased for my mother-in-law as a Christmas gift on my machine so she could play it a little bit during the week that she was here visiting. Since the game had no copy protection and I was intrigued I didn't uninstall it when she went home. I sent the full purchase price to the developer with an apology for violating the EULA and suggested that they could split the money with the publisher and Best Buy, where I would have bought another copy. Admittedly I did not include sales tax or suggest any revenue sharing with the state.

Three) I just bought a 'complete with all upgrades and expansions' package, download only, from Stardock for a game that I already have a disk copy of. I paid three times what I normally call my limit (I wait until things have hit the discount rack and/or value package stage, as my copy of Total War: Eras testifies). I have no problem paying full price or turning the disk that I paid for into a coaster, because Stardock has more than earned my money.

So, that's me as described by things I've done. Now, for those who say 'people who aren't pirates should have no problem with insert name of your least favorite draconian CP method here'...I'm not a pirate, I do more to support intellectual property rights than most people ever thought of, and I resent your position as stated sufficiently that we would probably have to work out our differences somehow before we could be in the same room safely.

That's the rant.

Last but not least, when the current generation of SecuROM 'protected' titles has fallen into the price range I deem fair I will likely buy them...and play them on the same machine (with no internet connection) in the same way (with no disk in the drive) that I have always preferred to play games.

hellenes

05-23-2008, 02:06

In my country (greece) the anticapitalist slash antiamerican mentality dominates (since most publishers are based in USA)...
Harming the publishers looks ok in people's eyes...because they become rich through exploitation of others (that sounded like Marx 101 I know)....
So this Robin Hood mentality soaks through and through...sadly we are one of the first if not the No1 country in piracy in EU....
But on the PC front the developers dont understand...ALL the money lost on piracy is FEEDING the HARDWARE industry...Nvidia/Intel/AMD/ATI/Kingston/WD...you name it...
People understand that its cheaper to have a €3000 PC than a €400 console...because on the latter youll have to pay at least €500 annually for games....in 6 years thats €3000 just on games...
Instead people download PC games for free and say: "Oh nevermind that EA CEO wont miss a spoon of chaviar"....
But since its impossible to download an 8800GT for example Nvidia is getting fat on software money...
Only last year Nvidia sold 20 million of the 8 series cards...
So I would suggest 2 ways to KILL piracy:
Make the games minimum specs INSANE like 8800GTX, 4GB ram, Quad Core CPU....
Then partner with Nvidia/Intel or AMD...Even if you download the said game the game publisher will get his money through HARDWARE since as I said you CANNOT download an 8800GTX....

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-23-2008, 06:54

Crysis basically did that and they did very poorly money wise. They probably blame it on piracy, too...

Praxil

05-23-2008, 13:34

So I would suggest 2 ways to KILL piracy:
Make the games minimum specs INSANE like 8800GTX, 4GB ram, Quad Core CPU....
Then partner with Nvidia/Intel or AMD...Even if you download the said game the game publisher will get his money through HARDWARE since as I said you CANNOT download an 8800GTX....

I understand you, but I think that you would be shooting your own leg with this. You see, I think that one of the pros about the consoles is the fact that you don't have to upgrade your PC every six months, to keep up the performance of the PC with new games released. As far as I understand it, PlayStation 2 sells well even to this day, same goes for its games. I mean, I think that that is something people don't want to bother with. Of course, you can always play those new games with lower graphical quality, for sure. Invest every six months like 300$ (just theoretical figure), to keep up so that you can play all new PC games with highest settings on, running with at least steady 60 FPS (in any given situation in the game).

Crysis basically did that and they did very poorly money wise. They probably blame it on piracy, too...

Well, reports said over 1 million unit sold, but I'm not sure on how the game was budged. So, it's unclear for me on how well did Crysis perform money wise. The game has been for some time on sale already. I remember Crytek being upset on sold VS. pirated ratio of Crysis.

Then one can ask, how many more of Crysis units would have been sold more, with unbreakable copy protection? Or with online validation? Looking at the Sins of a Solar Empire as an example, of 100% pirated Crysis copies probably 20-30% could return it in to the money, in my opinion. I don't care what publishers claim or say, these people never wanted to buy Crysis they just got the chance to play it for free and they did it. "These people never wanted to buy", well at least not at the release day no, maybe later on for lower price.

I pretty much think that, if a person has enough of money to get great PC, he/her will definitely have 50$ for Crysis. That's all I'm saying.

Lemur

05-23-2008, 15:52

Re. Crysis, also consider how many people stayed away because of steep system requirements. I read a few snippets about how Crysis was a showcase for DX 10. Do I care? No. Then I read how Crysis would bring my rig to its knees with ultra-realistic leaves and crabs. Do I care? No.

I don't mind a game that takes advantage of the hardware, but why place it at the outside edge of unreasonable? The hype certainly kept me away.

Doubtless they blame my non-sale on piracy. Idiots.

Lemur

05-30-2008, 22:35

TinCow

05-30-2008, 22:45

Marius Dynamite

05-31-2008, 00:59

What is the purpose of the 3 PC limit anyways? I mean, I assume if you want to play the game you have to have the disk in the drive? So then the only reason for the PC limit is to prevent you from lending the game to friends to play?

Is this illegal? Is this what they are trying to prevent with this?

If it is illegal surely its not one of those things you want to clamp down on? I often swap my friends my 360 games for a few days.

Games like 'The Darkness' was passed between 2 of my friends and myself. It was a pretty unknown game and was mainly single player, not the kind of game you buy.

The ironic thing is since my friend and I played it we have agreed its definetely worth buying Darkness 2, and we'll be first in line!

TB666

05-31-2008, 01:00

I assume if you want to play the game you have to have the disk in the drive?
No, according to Bioware you do not need the disc while playing.

Marius Dynamite

05-31-2008, 01:08

No, according to Bioware you do not need the disc while playing.

I suppose the limit makes a little more sense then. But then wouldnt it be simpler to cut down the copyright stuff but force people to use the disk? In your opinions.

TB666

05-31-2008, 01:21

I suppose the limit makes a little more sense then. But then wouldnt it be simpler to cut down the copyright stuff but force people to use the disk? In your opinions.
Personally I rather have none of them.
Stardock has the right idea of things, no CP no discs and it is working fine for them.
Same with Paradox.

Xiahou

05-31-2008, 01:45

Just for the history books:

They released Mass Effect PC on the 28th, correct? And today is the 30th. That's two days. That's all they bought for themselves, since reliable sources indicate that the bad guys have already broken the SecuROM and posted their results.

So the pirates have it. So what's the excuse for keeping the SecuROM on the game now? What's the logic of keeping paying customers like me away from their product?Yet another situation where the paying customers are getting an inferior product to the pirates. I would happily shell out the cash for Mass Effect if they removed SecuRom. As it stands now, I guess I won't be playing it. :no:

Personally I rather have none of them.
Stardock has the right idea of things, no CP no discs and it is working fine for them.
Same with Paradox.I really can't say enough good about Stardock. They have a great business model that others should emulate. :2thumbsup:

Timsup2nothin

05-31-2008, 03:25

Even more amusing, another game released on the exact same day, the next expansion pack of Europa Universalis, has not yet found its way onto bittorrent (at least as far as I am aware). This, despite the fact that it has very primitive and easy to circumvent copyright protection. Sure, Mass Effect was bound to get more focus from the hackers due to its popularity, but I suspect the general contentment of Paradox's customers with their games is also a major factor. The EUIII expansion pack hasn't been mass-pirated yet simply because the people who want to play it are more than happy to pay for it, despite the fact that it's easy to crack.

Customer Satisfaction > Strong-arm DRM copy protection system

I think you have the wrong reason here. Mass effect was bound to get more attention from people who crack protection because it has the quote-state of the art- endquote protection system. Most people who produce no-disk patches and such do it for the challenge, not because of the number of people who want the file. Point of fact, they only produce an exe file, so someone somewhere has to buy the game to get the data and graphics files. If they were interested in preventing sales they'd post up complete games...of course if they did that it would be illegal.

Lemur

05-31-2008, 04:36

From what I'm reading in the carefully hidden BioWare forum thread (http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=631515&forum=22&sp=0) about the DRM, the SecuROM implementation was cracked in under 48 hours. I guess news filtered out slowly.

This is just sad. If the rationale for imposing product activation on a single-player game is that it prevents or slows piracy, said rationale is dead, or at the very least gasping its last breaths. So what's the new rationale for punishing paying customers?

Whacker

05-31-2008, 08:28

I think you have the wrong reason here. Mass effect was bound to get more attention from people who crack protection because it has the quote-state of the art- endquote protection system. Most people who produce no-disk patches and such do it for the challenge, not because of the number of people who want the file.

Erm. Without trying to sound too old, or delving into territory that's too grey, I would respectfully disagree here based on my experiences. Many moons ago in my (stupid) youth I was associated with several... "groups" of individuals, and still know several who are involved in the warez scene. Quite simply, demand drives effort, very little of it is based on it being a technical challenge. If one knows where to look, one will notice a distinct trend that the more popular games are kept up with, while the less popular ones generally get something at release and that's it. Likewise, releases of cracks by individuals (as opposed to groups) tend toward both ends of the spectrum, with the vast majority concentrated around popular games, and the other end being niche games that few play. In this regard, my assessment is that the individuals create isolated projects due to dissatisfaction with what's currently available (or not available), not really as a "hah, I can do this" from a technical challenge perspective.

Anyway. Just a little commentary on my personal observations. Take it with a grain of salt as always.

I would like to echo the sentiment towards Stardock. These guys deserve every single cent we can throw at them. They have the right attitude and mindset, they listen to their customers, and they can put out decent/good/great games. A rare combination these days, they should be singled out and rewarded.

drone

06-17-2008, 22:24

Update on this one.
http://consumerist.com/tag/mass-effect-DRM/?i=5016980&t=ea-allows-3-activations-of-mass-effect-and-thats-it-period
Bioware Forum Thread (http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=635474&forum=127&sp=0)
Apparently, uninstalling Mass Effect does not get you an activation back. Reinstall the OS or change hardware, and you use up one of your "licenses". After 3, you are stuffed and have to buy more keys. Well done EA! ~:rolleyes:

You don't own ME, you are just renting it. :yes: