Breaking open the front of a phalanx

[duncan.gill]

Had an odd thought.

I was wondering if in real life whether it would have been possible for two soldiers to form a ^ shape with their shields and then use it as a wedge to punch through a phalanx. My thinking would be that given the length of the pikes that they would easily glance off the shields (as they would be hitting them diagonally and shield wielders would be closer to the point of contact and therefore be able to bring more force to bear on the point of contact) and it would allow the shield carrying troops to reach the phalanx formation, drop the shields and engage in close in combat (at which the phalanx troops would be much weaker). Also the commotion caused would allow other troops to enter in the breach in the hedge of spears.

Any thoughts?

[Parallel Pain]

I had similar thoughts before. I was usually told no, but never given an elaborate answer.

I personally still think it could be done. In any case the Celts did somehow break phalanx from the front (personally I believe in a shield wedge like the one you described).

[Africanvs]

This sounds like something that would require extreme discipline to pull off and I would have to say if it was a tactic that could be readilly applied, the strength of the pike phalanx would not have been so successful. Especially since it was often simply an anvil to smash the enemy against with the cavalry hammer.

In essence the phalanx is more a hindrance to the enemy correct? Something to hold them for a period of time until the cavalry arm can come around from behind to strike the finishing blow? A wedge like this would seem to take a bit of time to worm itself between the pikes thus the phalanx is hindering them in such a way that it is successful. Aside from this, I imagine if a phalanx is under pressure long enough without support it will eventually falter even when assaulted frontally.

I do not doubt some type of wedge like this was used on certain occasions mabe even with success, but I'd like to think this kind of a tactic would be futile against experienced phalangites and more useful against fresh recruits or unseasoned levies.

[soibean]

Did the phalanx soldiers have a holster with which to hold the weight of the spear, I read somewhere it weighed about 12 pounds so it wasn't that heavy. Yet even so it would surely tire the soldier after a prolonged fight if he had to hold it the entire time.

[QuintusSertorius]

I think the problem is that infiltrating a phalanx is possible, but has the consequence of breaking up your formation. Which matters because then men get isolated and start worrying they're going to be abandoned while everyone else is running.

[Vorian]

Could work if you faced only a spear in from og every man and they kept them still.

However three or four spears were in fromt of every phalangite, so you would have to pass through the first two, to counter another two and another two before you reach the men.

[duncan.gill]

I was thinking of something where they put their heads down and just ran. The pikes would be easy to ward off because of the point of contact being close to the shield and far away from the pike-wielder (i.e. simple leverage).

I would have thought that this could happen pretty quickly - a phalanx (to my way of thinking) would have been extremely effective if a group of men tried to push forward against it with a horizontal shield wall (as the shields would be perpendicular to the spears) but not trying to his shields obliquely.

[Maion Maroneios]

Could work if you faced only a spear in from og every man and they kept them still.

However three or four spears were in fromt of every phalangite, so you would have to pass through the first two, to counter another two and another two before you reach the men.
Exactly my thought. I have read though, that Roman soldiers deployed a certain tactic against Makedonian phalangites, where they ducked under the pikes and crawled until they got under the phalangite's noses. Pretty nifty, I would say, though I think well trained or experienced phalangites could deal with this some way...

[Illian the Mediocre]

I read somewhere it weighed about 12 pounds so it wasn't that heavy

It's not so much the weight of the pikes that would make them difficult to use, but more the length. However they would often dig one end of the pike into the ground to help them steady it. You're right of course it would be very tiring in a battle. Thus making attempts to break through more successful.

[Cartaphilus]

Exactly my thought. I have read though, that Roman soldiers deployed a certain tactic against Makedonian phalangites, where they ducked under the pikes and crawled until they got under the phalangite's noses. Pretty nifty, I would say, though I think well trained or experienced phalangites could deal with this some way...

In Late Middle Age they developed the great two handed swords as a good way to fight the pike unities, and make a breach in the pike wood.

A two meter sword (very rare indeed) has that purpose, break the pikes, not to fight as we seen in movies (like Mel Gibson as William Wallace style).

[Cambyses]

I seem to remember reading that one of the more common methods to deal with phalanxes in early years was to actually grab the pikes and try to pull them off the enemy.

It seems hard to imagine the V shape shield charge would work. Surely any skilled phalnx would not be a static wall formation, but a well drilled group of men thrusting their spears repeatedly at the enemy. With the added reach they could attack from many and different angles, they could also co-ordinate thrusts to prevent any individuals winning through. In essence it would be 6+ phalangites vs 1 enemy warrior at the front

[Lysimachos]

With the added reach they could attack from many and different angles

I find it hard to imagine soldiers in a tightly packed phalanx swinging their several metres long sarissas to the side to attack from a different angle.

[QuintusSertorius]

I find it hard to imagine men who can't actually see further ahead of them than the guy in front able to actively fight with someone trying to infiltrate the phalanx.

[The General]

I seem to remember reading that one of the more common methods to deal with phalanxes in early years was to actually grab the pikes and try to pull them off the enemy.

It seems hard to imagine the V shape shield charge would work. Surely any skilled phalnx would not be a static wall formation, but a well drilled group of men thrusting their spears repeatedly at the enemy. With the added reach they could attack from many and different angles, they could also co-ordinate thrusts to prevent any individuals winning through. In essence it would be 6+ phalangites vs 1 enemy warrior at the front
Directing their attacks against the V-formation pushing into the pike-mass would mean leaving their front with less spear points, thus opening the possibility of a breach there (perhaps also executed by the V-wedge formation?).

If I were to push through a phalanx front (for whatever reason), the V-wedge formation would be my initial idea, probably.

[Jolt]

Directing their attacks against the V-formation pushing into the pike-mass would mean leaving their front with less spear points, thus opening the possibility of a breach there (perhaps also executed by the V-wedge formation?).

If I were to push through a phalanx front (for whatever reason), the V-wedge formation would be my initial idea, probably.

I suppose people are just making this a one on one situation, but in a battle, it'd be very hard to achieve something like that. The Wedge matter can be successful, simply put, but if you put them in the midst of a battle, what happens is that they form to attack a simple phalanx, probably leaving them open to other attacks. Ranged attacks, javelins and etcetera would quickly disrupt such an attack. Furthermore the phalanx would actually be making it's job of holding the enemy down (even if the enemy's objective was to break the formation), possibly long enough for an "assault" infantry or cavalry to charge in and cause massive casualties, which would be enhanced since such a formation would have the same downsides as the phalanx, since it would be a densely packed formation focussed on pushing foward, and if a cavalry charge came from the sides or rear mayhem and chaos would ensue.

[The General]

I suppose people are just making this a one on one situation, but in a battle, it'd be very hard to achieve something like that. The Wedge matter can be successful, simply put, but if you put them in the midst of a battle, what happens is that they form to attack a simple phalanx, probably leaving them open to other attacks. Ranged attacks, javelins and etcetera would quickly disrupt such an attack. Furthermore the phalanx would actually be making it's job of holding the enemy down (even if the enemy's objective was to break the formation), possibly long enough for an "assault" infantry or cavalry to charge in and cause massive casualties, which would be enhanced since such a formation would have the same downsides as the phalanx, since it would be a densely packed formation focussed on pushing foward, and if a cavalry charge came from the sides or rear mayhem and chaos would ensue.
You are assuming a whole lot of things.


Phalanx-side has javelineers amidst the phalangites (they can't be thrown that far, yet phalanx blocks are 16-men deep with back rows keeping their sarissae erect, and wouldn't have space in between them... Or a wedge to push through the phalanx formation wouldn't be necessary)
Enemy doesn't have javelins (the setting that I imagined was Romani vs. Makedonia/Seleukids/etc)
Enemy uses ALL troops in a formation to form the wedge, and leaves [unit's] flanks undefended
Phalanx-side will keep the enemy busy enough for flanking/rear attacks to hit home even if penetrated by an infantry formation (as in the phalanx will not break and flee)
Enemy is vulnerable to assault infantry/cavalry, even though the enemy would most likely have to be heavy infantry to even have a shot at pushing through the phalanx formation, or at least possess great discipline
Enemy leaves flanks/rear undefended, and doesn't have reserves or additional units behind the front line


;)

[Africanvs]

I think the point is to use the best tactic based on the general strengths and weaknesses of the enemy. If I am approaching a phalanx, I know that it's greatest strength is from the front, and it's greatest weakness is the flanks and rear, and the fact that is has little to no maneuverability. In a world where it is just a single phalanx, and a single unit of infantry such as roman principes, I am going to attempt to run around the pikes and engage the flank or rear. Even if I could figure out a useful technique to penetrate the phalanx frontally, I am still going to use the least dangerous method which would still probably be a flank maneuver. Until a frontal attack proves the more reliable, and least dangerous method, I would not use it, and the fact that the pike formation continued to be used even well after gun powder weapons were in use, I would say that noone ever found that a frontal attack on a pike phalanx was the best method, no matter how they angled their shields. That being said, I am sure someone tried it and achieved nice results yet, most of them probably ended up as shishkabobs. Doing something in theory with reasons such as, "well the pikes are long and difficult to utilize," or "if you angle the shields just so in a wedge, theoretically you can brush the pikes aside," are easy to consider in a perfect world, but when you have rank after rank of angry pikemen thrusting very long spears at you with incredible leverage while you attempt to worm and wedge your way through, hoping a pike doesn't come right through your shield and into your face, while you may or may not be dodging javelins, sling stones, arrows, or the like, or while you may or may not be getting flanked by infantry or cavalry as you try to get through the spears, it becomes a very complicated maneuver reliant on a well disciplined and tight wedge to even pull off. I would say if it even was possible that there wouldn't be many who could do it, and I would go so far as to say only the most disciplined, well-trained, and well-equipped elite troops would be up to the task and those troops are very expensive so there would probably be few commanders who would risk sending them into a phalanx, and would instead rather put them on the flanks to protect their own line, or roll up the enemy line with a good old flanking maneuver of their own. Ultimately I believe that the reason the phalanx was so successful is that tactics like this simply didn't work against it very often if ever. :beam:

[Parallel Pain]

You're forgetting they threw out the shield by the late middle ages.

And also flanking is not so easy in real life when 1/4 of your commands (or 1/2 for cavalry) either wouldn't reach the men or they wouldn't obey it, going off chasing and plundering.

And that the pike square of the late medieval/renaissance era is different from the phalanx (per Watchman) with one of the difference being it could be interlaced with close-melee troops wielding halberds and swords.

[Xurr]

Directing their attacks against the V-formation pushing into the pike-mass would mean leaving their front with less spear points, thus opening the possibility of a breach there (perhaps also executed by the V-wedge formation?).

If I were to push through a phalanx front (for whatever reason), the V-wedge formation would be my initial idea, probably.


My initial thought would be small siege equipment. make a wedge shaped wooden fence 6 feet wide and 6-8 feet tall and put it on wheels(chariot wheels to keep it light). You could have 2-3 guys run it into the phalanx and follow with troops who would hack at the sarissa as they came. Put 4-5 of these on each phalanx and I think you could cause some serious havoc.

[Gabicho]

The "V" tactic sounds theoretically possible. But don't forget that in a real battle, if you have a sword, a shield, and your commander orders you to use "the "V" infiltration assault tactic", while 6 spears are pointed at you (god forbid they also have slingers and javalineers in the back rows)... chances are, unless you were a spartan, an elite profiessional legionnaire, a fanatic, a berserker, or had a death wish, you would play deaf and keep doing whatever it was you were doing prior to recieving that order (standing just out of range of the pikes, most likely). In real battles you really die, and that's why these kind of "daredevil" tactics were rarely tried.

It's just like the "gun disarming" techniques of nowadays. They can work? Sure. Would two soldiers jump out of cover, run towards the enemy's defenses (pillboxes, trenches, whatever) covering each other while being outgunned in a 12:2 ratio, and dodging bullets - so when they reach the enemy lines, use their gun disarming techniques on 6 enemies each, causing the 2,500-strong enemy brigade's formation to completely collapse? Well, it IS possible. But not even remotely likely. I think they (and their commanders) would use common sense, hold their positions, and wait for the artillery (archers) to break the morale and formation of the enemy, and for the tanks (cavalry) or elite troops to smash the flanks and rear of the enemy instead.
I'm exaggerating, of course, but wanted to make my point :idea2:

[Parallel Pain]

You know, Gabicho, an infantry wedge was very common, which is basically what this V tactic is with the commander adding an extra sentence of "face your shield slanting to your left or right."

It wouldn't be that hard, considering they also told their troops to "use your javelin like a spear" or "form the testudo" and such all the time.

And usually such elite soldiers as you listed formed the tip of the wedge anyhow. All the crappy guys followed at the base.

I like the "mini-siege weapon" idea. Of course I don't think they did it.

[russia almighty]

I wonder how the Songhai tactic of sending charging cattle would work against the Macedonian phalanx?

[Vorian]

Well people sent carts against Alexander but he defended well enough

[Xurr]

Well people sent carts against Alexander but he defended well enough


Actually they sent chariots at him. He trained his troops to step aside and let them into the phalanx and then killed the 2 man crews. If you had followed those chariots closely with a ton of infantry it would have gone very differently.

[Parallel Pain]

And there's a difference between a charging horse, who doesn't want to get impaled on sharp objects and was only motivated by reins/whips and a charging bull with two sabers tied to their horns and motivated by wicker/string/bundle of straw tied to their tails and then lit on fire.

[Poulp']

I wonder how the Songhai tactic of sending charging cattle would work against the Macedonian phalanx?

And the phalanx shouted, "Tonight, we eat beef !"

[Vorian]

Actually they sent chariots at him. He trained his troops to step aside and let them into the phalanx and then killed the 2 man crews. If you had followed those chariots closely with a ton of infantry it would have gone very differently.


No, I meant oxcarts running down a hill. It was in the early campaigns in Paeonia.

[Xurr]

No, I meant oxcarts running down a hill. It was in the early campaigns in Paeonia.


Ahh, did they have infantry running after to exploit the gaps?

[Africanvs]

Actually they sent chariots at him. He trained his troops to step aside and let them into the phalanx and then killed the 2 man crews. If you had followed those chariots closely with a ton of infantry it would have gone very differently.

Now that would have been a very interesting turn of events. By the way, before Alexander adapted the tactics for his men to create lanes and allow the chariots to enter the phalanx, were the horses just charging into the pikes? Was this successful? I imagine if he had to create the tactic, it must have been somewhat successful at the very least resulting in a lot of broken spears.

[lobf]

Couldn't battering rams work against the front of a phalanx? Either send in a ram with dudes behind it or have men inside of it to hop out when it's in the phalanx.

[Ludens]

Now that would have been a very interesting turn of events. By the way, before Alexander adapted the tactics for his men to create lanes and allow the chariots to enter the phalanx, were the horses just charging into the pikes? Was this successful? I imagine if he had to create the tactic, it must have been somewhat successful at the very least resulting in a lot of broken spears.
I imagine the chariots would not have charged the pikewall, but instead entered the gaps between the pike formations. I doubt the pike units could have formed an entirely unbroken pikewall, especially when they still had to march towards the enemy.

[Maion Maroneios]

Couldn't battering rams work against the front of a phalanx? Either send in a ram with dudes behind it or have men inside of it to hop out when it's in the phalanx.
Man, that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard... First of all, it would be very slow moving, giving more than enough time for light/heavy infantry or cavalry to turn them into pudding. Secondly, you would need many men to actually penentrate the pike wall, as a typical Macedonian syntagma was 16 men deep, so you would have quite a lot of force to oppose. Thirdly, if men would be inside, they would easily be massacred by just about any unit...

[Ayce]

Man, that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard... First of all, it would be very slow moving, giving more than enough time for light/heavy infantry or cavalry to turn them into pudding. Secondly, you would need many men to actually penentrate the pike wall, as a typical Macedonian syntagma was 16 men deep, so you would have quite a lot of force to oppose. Thirdly, if men would be inside, they would easily be massacred by just about any unit...


Then turn the battering eam into a covered wagon with fire ports for archers and slingers :smash:

[Parallel Pain]

I was thinking of a huge V shaped shield with 6~8 shield straps designed to be carried like a shield but by 6~8 people, and then put this at the front of the wedge and everyone else push from inside or behind. Once the phalanx breaks the 6~8 guys would throw this huge shield aside and fight without a shield (or if they could somehow carry a spare one)

Could actually be used against the shield wall of the riot police. A wedge is powerful under any circumstance after all.

[lobf]

Man, that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard... First of all, it would be very slow moving, giving more than enough time for light/heavy infantry or cavalry to turn them into pudding. Secondly, you would need many men to actually penentrate the pike wall, as a typical Macedonian syntagma was 16 men deep, so you would have quite a lot of force to oppose. Thirdly, if men would be inside, they would easily be massacred by just about any unit...

Heh, just a thought. I figured with enough momentum a weighted ram could at least bust open their ranks for a little while. But I suppose if it were that easy someone would have done it.

[Vorian]

Ahh, did they have infantry running after to exploit the gaps?


I will have to check my book for that. Unfortunately I will be in my parents' house for the weekend so wait until monday.

[Parallel Pain]

which battle by who was that?

[Rhyfelwyr]

You would need very disciplined troops to actually charge an enemy formation diagonally, rather than facing the enemies directly. Because while they charge the phalanx at an angle, they are not leaving themselves well protected once they get by the first of, say, six pikes.

Reminds me of Culloden. OK that was a gunpowder battle, but basically the British troops were ordered not to defend themselves with their bayonets, but the man to their right.

The idea behind this was that it would allow them to stab the unprotected sides of the charging Jacobites, who still fought with sword and shield. So every bayonet would be hitting the Jacobites sword-side, leaving no shield protection for them.

This tactic just about worked in the end, although the left flank of the Brits nearly broke at one stage.