Grrr Almohads

[Coeur De Lion]

can i ask why it always seems that the almohads are always the faction that seems to be the best faction out of the cpu when i play SP iv never seen the russians or danes become the best cpu faction with the biggest army or most land etc...

can someone explain why, was the almohads one of the most powerful faction in medieval times?

Coeur de Lion

[Dawood]

The Almohads kicked ass during the middle ages, but I agree, they tend to become too powerful. I blame it on the Almohad Urban Militia.

[Coeur De Lion]

yeah iv had some problems with them thye seem to kick alot of westen A**. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Coeur De Lion

[Yagyu Jubei]

Yes the Almohad rocked back in the day....
As far as this game is concerned, they seem to have become the "Hojo Horde" that we used to encounter in STW......
They sure are tough as nails if you let them get Spain....But how can You stop them unless you ARE Spain??? The derned Pope won't let you do much less'n you want to get ex'd.... HEHE
What an intense game we have to play.

------------------
Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

[Dawood]

Actually in my current game as Egypt Spain kicked the Almohad's asses all the way to Tunisia, they conquered all of the Iberian Peninsual, except Castille which was held for quite a while by the Almohad Khalif, but he made the mistake to attack Aragon with what few troops he had, probably thinking the fortifications there would serve him well. He fell after just two years, and the Spaniards advanced into North Africa, they took Morocco and Algeria, but the Almohads is holding out in Tunisia, i would help my muslim brother but i am busy slaughtering my other muslim brothers the turks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I wan't to become the only muslim nation, and then I will expand the muslim land from the desert of Arabia to include all of Europe.

[Spino]

Let's not forget those irksome camel units; too fast to rush them with most infantry and their presence can negate all but the best and most powerful cavalry.

Historically speaking were Almo militiamen really that good or did the devs tweak them to provide the Almos with some decent infantry for the early/high eras? I find it hard to believe they would rate higher in melee and defense than the professional troops of that era. And did they really wear that much armor? I find it odd to have a desert faction with well armored infantry; AUM is better equipped than Byzantine Infantry!


[This message has been edited by Spino (edited 10-15-2002).]

[Coeur De Lion]

yeah but, cant thye just give osme outher faction ago http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif there almohad urban mitila kick A** most the time which is supriseing as there not proffesinal troops (well not suppose to be) in the game.

Coeur De Lion

[olaf]

I think there is a bug that gives AUM extra valor or something. Not sure, but I seem to recall reading something like that here. Also not sure if that is why they dominate, but they dominate in my SP games too. I have played three total so far, all as the Danes and in all three the most powerful factions from ~1150 on were Danes, Almohads and the Byzantines.

Another thing I have noticed, about AI factions in general, is that they routinely have generals who are just awesome. Its not uncommon for them to have multiple 7 star generals (many of them heirs or faction leaders...) while I am lucky to have two at 5 stars or better at anyone time. My faction leader and heirs usually start sucking after the mighty king olaf becomes worm food, and that is pretty much where I get most of my generals.

olaf

[sidhe]

You can attack the Almohads if you swing around and hit them from the back with an amphibious assault. I kicked the Almodaddy's booty in Granada. I was very proud!

RE: other powerful factions; I wonder if a certain style of play doesn't make it more likely for one faction or another to get huge on you. Whenever I play England or Denmark, the Novgorods, Byzantines and Almohads kick arse in equal measure, but then I've been sitting back and raking in the money from trade, etc. trying to win in GA. If you are more aggressive, perhaps that means one or another of the factions don't get all the opportunities they need to climb to the top.

[Gil galad]

As the english I always tend to put a strong guard army in aquataine Because the french or the germans who are occupying toulouse aren't strong enough.

------------------
http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/mod/dwarves.gif (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000587.html)

Remember them!
They gave all and asked not but FREEDOM
If you fear from suffering, you are allready suffering from what you fear"

[sidhe]

Oh my! Gil galad is spinning in his mortal grave!!

You know he didn't like dwarves too much.. that Silmarils thing and all, that got most of his great ancestors waxed?

[DragonCat]

Actually there is a second way to keep the Almohads from being a problem other than playing as Spain . . .

------------------
DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!

[iankei]

Actually,

In my current campaign the almo's got their butts kicked by the spanish. the spaniards have taken over the whole of africa at this point while I as Italy have worked my way through the turks the byz and the horde. Now the dang Mafiaoso has snuck up and attacked me and cut all my darn trade routes blockaded. i let them build up too many ships ! grrr

[This message has been edited by iankei (edited 10-15-2002).]

[malkuth]

Without the Urber militia Elmos would be squashed very easy. Thank god the CPU doesnt build whole armies on them.

[TenkiSoratoti]

patch may fix?

------------------
"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[Cyricist]

Umm I think this was said in a previous thread, but... the AI adapts to your style of play. If you take on the Almohads with just armies, it will throw HORDES back at ya. You might try getting some more agents (spies and such) to the region. Also, it helps to buy off the occassional general with a bribe (emisary) than to pay for HUGE armies every year.
Apart from that, Almohads aren't invincible. You just need to use a little tactics in taking their Almohad Urban Militia out. There are ways you know. Hitting them hard from the side or back with Hobilars whilst letting men at arms, archers and feudal sergeants do their work to stop them in their tracks is an option. Also, what has worked for me is using a unit to stop them (spearmen can do this, though not too long they get tired and eventually slaughtered) and then engaging them from the side with crossbow/arbalester fire. Sure, you have a lot of them to contend with, so you'll need enough men and ammo, but if you're not in short supply of either you can easily win.

The best victory I ever made was rushing the general unit with 200+ Hobilars, killing him and getting the militia to rout by running around them and stabbing them HARD in the back, unit by unit, retreating and charging again and again. The only thing you have to watch is who they are facing.

Also, Arbalesters/Crossbowmen on the flanks and Archers/Longbowmen behind you main force can make swiss cheese out of these guys if you time your 'keep them busy' action right.

The right combo of troops can take these guys on. They're just infantry. I slaughtered hundreds today, together with other units he threw at me. Timing is also essential. And watching your crossbowmen. Never let THEM become the centre of attention in this strategy, for when YOUR nuit get in their firing path, it gets hit EASILY.

Works for me. Flanks people.. Flanks..

Oh and make sure you concentrate your fire! let two crossbow units and two archer units fire at the same AUM and see it get decimated within seconds http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif!

[This message has been edited by Cyricist (edited 10-15-2002).]

[Hakonarson]

AFAIK the AUM are a fantasy unit - nothing along their lines ever existed historically.

Byzantine infantry are another, as are the various "grades" of Eurpoean infantry - "fuedal" and "Chivalric".

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Spino:
Let's not forget those irksome camel units; too fast to rush them with most infantry and their presence can negate all but the best and most powerful cavalry.

[This message has been edited by Spino (edited 10-15-2002).][/QUOTE]

Yes! Those damn camels are an annoyance!
I'll usually hit with some arrows and then send a unit of peasants (if I'm so unlucky to have some) or spears to chase off the map.:-)

[andrewt]

I'm currently playing as the Almohads and am close to conquering the entire map in just 70+ years. Most of my large stacks have around 5-8 AUM units. The Almohads also get really nasty heirs, not as powerful as Byzantine, but powerful nonetheless. I have around 6 heirs and ex-heirs with 5-7 command and both the kings who died also had around 5-7 command. The only weakling I have is my current king who only had 3 command.

[aX1s]

Man i hate the Almohads....i am playing as french and pretty much conquered europe and england all that is left is russia byzantine turkey Almohad spain and eygyt.....

and since i had built up my armies consisting of Chiverelic Men at arms, Feudal and Chverelic Segearnts, Royal Knights, crossbows and pavaise cross bows i decide to take out almohad spain...

But iam losing battles where i outnumber them 3 to 1 ive seen my Expensive Chiverleric units slaugutered by the Almohad urban mitita and the provinces im trying to take always have bridges so there no chance of flanking I NEED HELPPPP....

any tactic on how to take out thoses damn Almohads on bridge maps??? and i just dont get how they are defeating my chiverlric units??

And crossbows dont seem to be even hiting those freaks + ive got better armour upgrades i cant see where it going wrong unless Almohad cheap IDIOT miltia is some UBER unit that cant be stoped (for godsakes they take out Royal Knights, Chiverelic Segernts and men at arms and mitia sergents!!!!) Wat the hell counters them?

Any tactics on how to take them out using french???

[Gringoleader]

I feel sorry for the Elmos because they really suck. Their souped up urban militia are really rather poor. The trick that I have employed to good effect is siege equipment. Lots of it, even crappy ballistas that only kill three men per battle. With enough artillary you can simply scare the Elmos off the field. Combine a flanking cavalry charge with five or six catapults raining stones and there's a good chance the whole army will fold like Superman on laundry day.

[Hulegu]

Will the patch do anything about the Almohads? I hope so.

I'm aware there's been much discussion about the orange hordes here so I apologise if I duplicate others' points. Only my third campaign, but, here we go again, the Almohads have expanded rapidly and massively, nearly exterminating the Christian powers: they have lots of massive armies, big fleets all over the place including, for some reason, several in the Atlantic: and now they have started the long-expected war, and I know from experience that their Almohad Urban Militia are going to be frustratingly difficult to deal with.

There are many reasons for wanting this situation changed, and many of you, no doubt, could offer advice on dealing with it or preventing it. I just want to say that I hope the patch makes these guys a little weaker. I like some historical reality in games, and I am not alone in this: having the Almohads in control of most of the map is so far from what actually happened that, game or not, I cannot be the only one slightly disappointed when it keeps happening. In this latest case I am Egyptian, and no one even had a chance to launch a crusade against me. One cannot even use a campaign to try to vary history, since more often than not there's no history left to be varied.

But I'm not trying to join debates about how historically accurate games should be, just saying I think the Almohads are currently a bit of a problem and asking if the patch will adjust matters.

[insolent1]

The main reasons the almohads do so well is their starting position & the troops they get. They have only 2 borders to defend Cyrenchia & Cordoba they normally get on pretty well with the egyptians for a long time so all their units go to Cordoba. If any of you have noticed that it takes the AI a very long time for the AI to tech up to castle level which means it takes the spainish a very long time to produce good troops to counter the almohads with the exception been feudal sergeants. Whereas the almohads can get most of their best units while still at keep level which puts the Spainish at a real disadvantage. I have found that if the almohads get valencia befor ethe spainish do then you will face a almohad horde.
The best way to counter the almohads is with your ships as they need the northern sea areas to transport their troops to france. In my latest campaign as teh Polish the almos where in aquitane by 1130 & in Normandy by 1140 so I got my ship production rolling & effectively wiped out the fledgling almo fleets. Since then I have been at constant war with them 180 years & I have ruled the seas for the whole time. This means that his troops have to travel by land to get to their destination. The main thing that you have to do is to gewt his fleets before they become numerous. the effects of this are that you will face a much weaker almo force in europe. The next move to do is to take Cordoba as this will split his empire in 2. He will be more likely to have rebellions now as his king will be cut off from the newly conquered european provinces. When you take Cordoba make sure you send your best general & best army with reinforcements for the main troop types. I have fought a lot of very long battles down there & now he is at the stage where he justs moves his 8 stacks or so between granada & morocco (he is to scarred to attack) I even eventually went on to take the rest of the Iberian pennisula.
Feudal Sergeants, arbalests & Halberdiers are essential especially with weapon upgrades. The AUM reach my lines after sustaining nearly 2/3's losses so they route quickly in the face of my feudal sergeants

[Kapybara]

I was playing as danes and fought with elmos who were invading Scotland and I noticed that they had darn good peasants. I attacked 100 man peasant unit which was fighting against my spearmen. 40 Feudal Knights who attacked from behind got slaughtered by a bunch of wilthy peasants in ten seconds! WTF! How the hell is this possible. That wasnt the only time that elmos had some crappy unit which proved out to be uberduberkillingmachine. =(

[solypsist]

the Elmos start off strong in the beginning but are soon outclassed by the middle of the campaign; the Catholic troop types are just too good.
The Elmos start off with a King and 8 heirs that have the best stats in the game; it this leadership (not the stat, just the general term) that gives them the edge in the beginning.

But they don't always do so well all the time....

[Nelson]

As Spain the Almohads were not a big problem for me. I took Cordoba early on, they took it back, I retook it and kept rolling all the way to Egypt. Jinetes can really hurt AUM if you're willing to micromanage them.

Portugal on the other hand was a major pain in the ass for years until I sent the meanest bastard I could find to stand on their necks.

------------------
COGITOERGOVINCO

[Lord Romulous]

Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
I feel sorry for the Elmos because they really suck. Their souped up urban militia are really rather poor. The trick that I have employed to good effect is siege equipment. Lots of it, even crappy ballistas that only kill three men per battle. With enough artillary you can simply scare the Elmos off the field. Combine a flanking cavalry charge with five or six catapults raining stones and there's a good chance the whole army will fold like Superman on laundry day.[/QUOTE]

i not so sure about that. i was playing a custom battle to test the effectivness of artillery.

i had mostly 2 valour gothic foot knights and sergants + some gothic mounted knights
added to this was 4 serpantine batteries.

my oppostion was 60% AUM the remainder nubian spearman and pav alb all of two valour

i am playing in southern european battlefield in summer in semi arid but not desert.

any way i was attacking so the almos camped on a section of the map. it was a flat map so it didnt do them much good. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
i opened up with my arty, the fools just stood there as cannon balls rained down. (while it looked impressive it didnt do that much damage and maybe killed 120-170 men out of 1200 almos. Once the arty ran out of cannon balls i advanced with my men. and had one of the closest battles ever.

the battle tide flowed back and forth with each side almost manovering into a battle winning postion only to have the other side counter at the last minute. my lines of gothic sergants were getting chewed up by the AUM and several units routed.

in the end both generals had routed off the battlefield and 1200 elmos were dead or captured. I lost about 600-650 troops out of a total of 800.
i think the vultures have started worshiping me as a deity after the banquet i gave them.

point is i came so close to losing the battle on several occasions cause of the sheer killing power of the AUM. the arty looked good but i would have been better off with more shock troops to attack the enemy flank. i really cant see the point in arty except for the lucky shot on the enemy gen.




[This message has been edited by Lord Romulous (edited 10-20-2002).]

[el_slapper]

Surprising, but maybe linked to the way you play. I'm using the horde of agents strategies, & momoheads are NEVER that dangerous. In my current game, Spanish hold everything of both zones, except Aragon, and they're not a threat. Maybe my inquisition & assassination campaigns are doinbg their work...

------------------
War is not about who is right, only about who is left