View Full Version : Petition CA for MTW source code?
edyzmedieval
04-20-2008, 14:48
Hello CA.
If any of you guys are still around here, maybe you can answer my question:
Would you release the source code for Medieval:Total War for us fans and modders? Or would it be possible for someone to buy it?
MTW is a very old game (6 years old), you cannot get any more profit out of it, so maybe you would do something for the people which still play it like hell?
Thank you. :bow:
Alexander the Pretty Good
04-20-2008, 23:15
Asking for Shogun's code might be more reasonable, but I imagine there are still a few trade secrets even in that code that they might not want released...
Timsup2nothin
04-23-2008, 15:18
Since I just bought the Eras package a few months ago I pretty much disprove the 'no profit left' theory. If normal game marketing holds its course expect a 'series' package with M1 and M2, and a 'compendium' package with S,M1,R and M2, one right before Empires and one right after.
I honestly doubt CA will release the source code on either STW or MTW anytime soon, and Alexander and Timsup2nothin have highlighted the two main reasons why: Even if sales of these two games were to drop to a negligible level -- which I have a feeling hasn't happened yet, despite all the time that's passed since they were both released -- I suspect it'll still be a very long time before CA would be willing to divulge the (relatively) sensitive contents of their intellectual property. I agree it's unfortunate in a way, but it's also understandable.
@Timsup2nothin: Welcome to the Org, btw! ~:wave:
edyzmedieval
04-28-2008, 23:00
It doesn't stand up Martok.
Why would they still keep a 2000-2001 game engine (MTW was built over the Shogun engine), updated a bit in 2002? There's no more support for MTW. The sales are negligible. What intellectual property is still there?
They are releasing ETW, the 5th game in the series. At least give us something to work on!
And if not to the general public, at least to some people and under NDA contract.
Heh, I doubt it Edyz (First Post). I asked Bethesda Softworks to release Daggerfall as Freeware (like TES - Arena) as they no longer sell nor produce it, thus not creating any revenue from it. They turned the idea down quickly and without remorse.
I was really getting ready to sink my teeth into some nice juicy Daggerfall... :shame:
Edit: And The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall is much older than MTW.
It doesn't stand up Martok.
Why would they still keep a 2000-2001 game engine (MTW was built over the Shogun engine), updated a bit in 2002? There's no more support for MTW. The sales are negligible. What intellectual property is still there?
I won't claim it necessarily makes a lot of sense per se, but companies do tend to be very protective of their IP....no matter how old it is, and I'm sure CA is no exception. Not to mention which, there's the added wrinkle that they're now owned by Sega, who are probably even more likely to hold onto their IP. So even if CA were willing to release MTW's source code (which is still extremely unlikely), I very strongly doubt that Sega would ever allow it regardless. Like it or not, you and I will probably be old men (if not in the grave) before that would ever happen. :shrug:
edyzmedieval
05-04-2008, 20:23
Yes, but the thing is, if they don't want for free, can they let us BUY it?
Can someone from CA comment on this please?
King Kurt
05-06-2008, 18:07
I can understand why CA would be reluctant to release source code, but could they release it in a controlled way to say a group of moders so they could see if the problem with newer graphics cards could be sorted?
I am sure that it is not worth their while to create a patch to sort it out, but it would be of use to them if somebody else did it. Perhaps it could be done through somebody like Caravel who seems to have a wide knowledge of these things - just a thought - from somebody with a new PC with a good graphic card!!!:egypt:
dimitrios the samian
05-13-2008, 08:07
Just create a new source code !! ...
Im sure the people who have made mods in the past and tweaked & balanced them for a better game could improve the AI immensely on all apects .
Kaidonni
05-15-2008, 10:12
I don't think it'd hurt for CA to let some of the top modders see if they can fix the graphics drivers issues. There has been a lot of disappointment in CA when it comes to patches for their games. They were going to stop at 1.2 for Rome, and to my knowledge, they haven't released any more patches for M2TW beyond the 1.3, which only allows multiplayer (Kingdoms is the 1.4, I assume...and I thought I saw something about a 1.5 in the M2TW section, but I did read the threads on patches and such where people shared their disappointment in the lack of any more planned patches). I think, to allow modders to at least create a solution for the graphics drivers problem would partly redeem them in the eyes of their fans - and it might be for an older game, but it is the first step in a long journey. They need to take better care of their players (that save-load bug on RTW was once called a feature by CA...then they changed their tune at some point and decided to finally fix it).
King Kurt
05-16-2008, 12:28
Followers of this thread should see the thread with the new fix for CTD for MTW - if that is all that is required then it should be easy to do a simple patch - perhaps we could host it??
edyzmedieval
05-19-2008, 07:36
Just create a new source code !! ...
Im sure the people who have made mods in the past and tweaked & balanced them for a better game could improve the AI immensely on all apects .
Well this is the thing.
We want CA to release the code to MTW so we will just work MTW. To create a better game graphics wise and other stuff its impossible to do it with the MTW code because the engine is old, and no-one would ever spend an entire life working from this code.
IMHO, I think what everyone wants is better AI and diplomacy. Graphics cannot be fixed but there is no need. Content and other things have been added by great mods. Diplomacy and AI can only be resolved by the source code, by editing it. Same thing goes for bugs.
Nobunaga
05-19-2008, 12:13
CA will never ever ever ever ever do that!!
But I don't think anybody on the Org, that still plays MTW, that could be bothered to put effort into anything, and that has the time and patience, even has the skills to work with coding for games so mechanically complex, such as Medieval: Total War's engine, is around and willing to edit some code just to make MTW that tiny fraction better.
I could be wrong however... Someone out there, that enjoys playing MTW, that has plenty of time and patience, that can be determined enough, and has the skill requirements for coding a game so mechanically complex might rock up here at the Org tomorrow... But what are the chances of that, eh?
:juggle:
I think you would be surprised. There are quite a few people here that I believe are more than capable. With access to the source, it would probably be fairly straightforward to find out the video driver issues.
As for improving the game, I would say the best changes to make would be moving many of the hardcoded settings into new text game files. Doing this would open balance and playability testing to a greater number of people.
All wishful thinking though.
Kaidonni
05-21-2008, 14:20
I believe that it is against the rules to even discuss it, yet alone do it.
[Indeed it is. -- Martok]
We need to be constructive, also, about CA's current and future Total War games - calling them :daisy: (yes, I just censored that word myself) isn't very constuctive, it's just venting anger at the shortcomings of their games.
I think there could be a way to 'butter-up' CA, to encourage them to trust us with this issue, and fixing the game code (NOT cracking, though) so that video driver issues are solved. I'd go as far as saying that CA should trust us, seeing as how they are selling MTW:VI in those special bundles with the other TW games, knowing full well the issues that newer computers will have running the game. They're even selling Shogun in those bundles. Heck knows what issues RTW will have one day. I don't think it is moral to sell games under such false pretenses. Not everyone will be aware of any of the problems or solutions, the people who visit these forums are likely in the minority - so, how do CA think people will feel if two of the games in those special bundles don't work at all? These bundles people have spent their hard-earned money on? And what if RTW ends up suffering the same issues? It is selling games under the false pretenses they still work just fine - not everyone is akin to understanding the world of computing, and the various issues newer computers have with older software, and CA's current path could be construed as exploiting that.
Now, I think it is only fair to let us see if we could fix the video driver issues. Remember, it looks like the campaign map issues have been fixed in the other thread, and that is because of just two files - TWO files, who would have guessed they'd screw an entire game up? Well...I suppose anyone could have guessed...LOL...Murphy's Law (or Sod's Law) - if something is going to go wrong, it will, and it will be one ever so simple thing no one has thought of, and no one will think of for a long time. What if the battlemap could be fixed in an instant? Maybe it couldn't, but we'd be doing CA a favour. People are already angry at them because of their track record in recent times for releasing unfinished products, and their patches not fixing nearly enough (I mean, seriously, it isn't easy to make games, I understand that - but it is NO excuse to make them half-hearted).
What else can they do with the game engine anyway? Isn't it obsolete? I know they might want to hang on to it, but none of us here are intending to make any profit from it. We just want to fix a classical game, and it might restore our faith in CA. They do owe us, really - we've been loyal to them, we've parted with our money for them, we haven't tossed this game out of the window. They need more help from the community, because games aren't about what the company wants, they are about what the people want - and if the people want it, they will buy it. If the community is allowed to input, even on these old games, it encourages good community relations with the company, and encourages the company to be more open-minded.
MTW is a classical game, and I think it would be a shame - and an injustice - if CA were to totally ignore us on this issue. I already uninstalled M2TW in anger, and can't reinstall it because the DVD drive speed is insufficient (or so I am led to believe - the DVD's won't read, not the first nor the second). I liked RTW, and it still bustles to this day. However, I will not be buying Empire because CA is focusing too much on graphics and not substance. MTW had substance. RTW had some also. M2TW did not. CA have disillusioned the people on these forums, and I think it is our voice that matters the most, not the voices of the unseen and unheard buyer who will never log on to these forums (face it, CA have to look at forums, and do they really want to see people upset at them? In a constructive manner? That's far worse than some of the rants out there - to know someone has a reason for not liking you, and isn't just angry).
If anyone working at CA is reading this, we implore you to reconsider. What threat is there in letting us fix the video driver issues? Heck, we'd be doing you a favour because then, you'd be able to sell the Eras pack, and more, with STW and MTW bundled in them, with the fixes. Not everyone likes cool graphics - you might be surprised how many people might jump at the chance to play MTW or STW. Many issues factor into it. Some people love cool graphics, but also like the 'old school' games (STW and MTW). We all remember Digger and Space Invaders - and Pong - after all these years. They were ever so simple, but they made for great, fun games. You can't really go on selling games in bundles if they suffer severe graphics driver issues, it isn't right. People are paying money for broken games.
I hope I have made a point here, and I think there can be a way for this to work out, both for CA and the community. Just because it might be hard is no excuse at all not to at least try. I think we could do something really great here. Blizzard constantly updates their games, and I'm not advocating releasing hundreds of updates, but there should be better support for the TW games. There is no rival, currently, but if there were to be one, that rival would be a great threat if they ever considered the problems CA has been overlooking. This idea of tweaking the code can benefit CA greatly, and we really would greatly appreciate any help they have to offer. We do not want to do anything untowards or illegal, nor do we want to fleece CA out of profits.
Yeah, a bit long-winded, I know. Er...DISMISSED! :laugh4:
edyzmedieval
05-21-2008, 18:13
Kaidonni, well said. :bow:
Who is up for a petition? And if so, what variants would you consider?
1. Source code for existing MTW players present here in order to improve the game - forbidden to sell except if someone buys the source code.
2. Source code only for selected people such as modders
3. Just fix the video issue
I want 1.
[Sorry edyz, but the mention of game cracks had to be removed. -- Martok ]
I realize that most of you don't need reminding (and my thanks to Kaidonni and edyz for their restraint :bow: ), but I'll say it anyway: Discussion about -- and especially advocacy of -- game cracks is strictly forbidden. Even when well-intentioned, the Org does not allow it. Period.
Now that having been said....
Poll added. ~:)
Spartan198
05-22-2008, 10:11
Sure, I'll give a yes vote and help out my MTW-faithful compatriots. :yes:
Well put, Kaidonni. But:
-> Paying for a broken game isn't quite their fault, it's a hardware fault, it's like paying for a game that only just came out, and finding out it won't work on your Comadore 64.
-> Whilst it's true that probably none of us are planning anything malicious against CA, if they were to place up the source code freely available to the public, who knows who'd come along, snatch it up, and redistribute it thus making profit from a game they didn't make.
-> Remember they'd be releasing it to total strangers, we may seem cute and fuzzy on the outside, but they've never met us in person, who's to say that we aren't not planning to warez MTW?
-> Whilst I do agree that we should try it, you've got to remember the risks that CA would be gambling here. If it fails miserably there'd never trust us again, who knows, the company itself might fall. There are plenty of "What if's..." involved - as I've said, the company is risking plenty, MTW might be end up being freely distributed across this org as a pirated version.
I'm simply pointing out the "What if's..." here. As for the poll, it's a "Yes" but a significant part of me says "No". :confused:
Kaidonni
05-22-2008, 15:08
Actually, on the broken game part, it is kind of CA's fault. This is specifically a PC game, and no one is dumb enough (er...yeah, I remember that advert about the clever-dumb balance...LOL...) to try it on their Commodore64. People are expecting it to work on their PC, still, especially seeing as how my version of MTW Gold is on a PC DVD-rom. Is Eras on a PC DVD-rom too? It might mislead some people to think this game, which is suffering hardware issues (that they are not aware of) is fitted out to work on more recent computers. PC-DVD roms are pretty recent, and to release a game on one, or continue it's sale over to that medium... It might be an old game (LOL...well, not old OLD), but there is something about the continual sale of it that seems misleading.
Something really does need to be done. They don't need to trust us with the code, it could be something entirely differing that's mucking the battlefield up. We might be able to find a few files that, just like the ones NTW replaced, need tweaking to work fine. But, something still needs to be done.
When it comes down to it, sure it's a hardware issue, but I will repeat that CA are at least partly to blame for continuing to sell the game, especially on PC-DVD roms (either like MTW Gold or part of the Eras bundle), to PC owners (not Commodore64 or Amiga owners). There is, again, an air about the way the game is sold that makes it seem recent. One day it may break entirely, and we may not ever be able to get it to work after that day. However, I feel that CA is misleading people to an extent, even if not intentional. There should be a warning that comes with the game about the hardware issues, slapped right on the front (or as part of the blurb on the back). It isn't every day you expect a PC game on a PC-DVD rom to not work.
So, even if it isn't to gain access to the code, we should still petition CA for something. I'm certain we can make some convincing argument.
Besides, it's only the actual battlefield that doesn't work properly now. The buttons on that screen match up, and the radar map also matches up and works properly (save for not letting you move so well or change the rank depth of your troops). So, why doesn't the battlefield itself work? Why are there mouse-over problems? Perhaps a few files need tweaking, and that is all, to fix the issue. Just seems rather odd that just one element of the battlemap doesn't work, yet the others do.
Yeah, repeated myself a bit, but hope I made my point. CA can't simply shift the blame on to anyone else. Many modern computers will be having issues, and they are still selling the game knowing it probably won't work. And, like I said, we aren't on about Commodore64's here (for the third time...LOL)...
I said yes to the poll, but I still don't think it's going to happen. They may allow it 10-15 years after release, but unlikely at this point.
The only workable solution I see would be for them to allow a small company (under heavy NDA contracts) to see and fix the code for new drivers and new OS versions (when Windows 7 comes out in a few). A port to Linux would be nice as well, but we can't really get greedy. ~;) The problem (which is the same problem CA has with patches) is that the regression testing/QA process would be prohibitively expensive, and unless the modders take on that responsibility CA/Sega is not going to go through with it.
So, to sum up, an official patch would be too expensive, but an unofficial patch would compromise intellectual property.
Kaidonni
05-22-2008, 15:45
We could always nag Nvidia instead...
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=40869&st=0
Heck, there is concern that problems are even emerging for RTW on Nvidia's drivers. That isn't good at all. What the heck is going on? The latest drivers, the 8800 series, totally screwed up the computer - interface lock-ups from all angles, extremely recent games like Half Life 2 Episode 2 not launching, and crashing (turns out forcing it to load in windowed mode just about bypassed the problem, but it only came out last October...if games, especially good ones with substance, are going obsolete at that rate, why bother at all with them?). Heck, on Nvidia's latest drivers, Maya 8.0, 8.5 and 2008 don't work properly unless you find the thread on CG Society where you sift through for the setting you need the graphics card/drivers at...and those are major 3D animation/modelling packages...
The Unknown Guy
05-22-2008, 21:03
They could divulge the source code without releasing the games into the public domain. Wouldn´t be the first who have done that. The "Call to Power" makers did, for instance, allow a certain game modders domain to use the source code for improvements. The makers of the game "Comanche vs Hokum" did likewise: the source is public, but the games are not (and you have to purchase them to use the mods).
In fact, one could argue that it might bolster sales of old games.
Possible reasons for them not to do so: I´ll use my last example: Comanche vs Hokum was improved in pretty much every single way by the modders, whereas the developers released a rather crude "CvsH 2" with little improvement over the modded first game.
I'd gladly contribute a small sum towards being able to purchase the source code off CA,so that the graphics problems could be fixed.Maybe we could start up a thread for this purpose,that is if CA are willing to let us try.
Nobunaga
05-23-2008, 09:55
TW never really changed. From STW to MTW2 the game really didnt evolve much (/or at all actually many argue that the game devolved asides from graphics) moreover to this day still TW doesnt face any competition in the market... so it is crazy to believe that CA might release the source code of MTW or even STW...
edyzmedieval
04-19-2009, 21:42
Still wondering if people think the same...
My option:
Somebody buys the source code, retaining the property rights of the whole game. However, a deal is made with CA. The profits of the new game are shared equally between the buyer and CA, but at the same time, the game is completely reworked on the AI/Diplomacy side and in some aspects, the campaign map has more features, more factions, more units... The game is repackaged, sold as Medieval: Total War (new & improved), including a bundle of the ORIGINAL game, and everyone is happy.
Any takers? I seriously want to do this. :bow:
In the odd chance we got the source code for MTW, we'd need someone skilled in C++ who also has an awful lot of time and motivation to invest.
And fixing the "bug" with newer video cards is not straightforward, it takes figuring out what the problem is, which could be anything. Not a simple line of code that says "don't work on new cards"... Then of course, fixing one bug creates another, and the cycle goes on.
However, Paradox released their source code (http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352059)for the Europa engine, privately to volunteering modders, which is the code for EU1, EU2, CK, HOI1, HOI2, and Victoria. Those games they are still making a lot of money on, they released this code within a year of releasing one or more expansions for the games built on it. They didn't even wait until the game was dead.
ID Software released the source code for most of their earlier games, including Q1, Q2 and Q3 : http://www.idsoftware.com/business/techdownloads/
Rebellion software released the source code for the first AvP game.
All of these are games that made huge profits, have huge and very real modding communities and in the case of the Quake series, spawned hundreds of other titles many of them free: http://www.urbanterror.net/news.php
The reason that the CA won't release the source code to STW (and MTW - but first things first) is anyone's guess. IMHO it's because we're dealing with a company that cares little for it's fans, especially those long term fans that bought the games and put CA where it is today.
When the source code is released, it does not mean that the game becomes free. In the case of the Quake games you have the necessary code to build the binaries and libs that the game needs. You then need the game media (the pak files containing the textures, models, weapons etc) in order to get the game running. To get to this point you need to buy the game OR download it illegally. But people still download it illegally anyway - so this would be no different to them releasing a patch.
It would work exactly the same for CA:
1) They would release the source code for the binaries.
2) The open source community would immediately sieze on this and:
a) Fix the problems in the existing game engine, port it to other platforms (GNU/Linux, MacOS, etc)
b) Start improving AI, adding functionality etc.
3) Joe public wants to download and run (let's call it) Open Medieval - Total War (for now). He gets either the win32, Mac or Linux build from sourceforge - installs runs and.... nothing
4) The user then reads the manual and realises that he needs the original game. He doesn't need the original windows binaries but he does need the game media files (images, sounds, scripts etc) and the licence.
5) Once he has these, which he pays for, he's up and running. He may be a Mac user or a Linux user, therefore he's a customer CA would otherwise not have had.
Tried, tested, works. Now tell me why CA won't release the source code for a 9 year old game?
edyzmedieval
04-20-2009, 17:09
Beats me... I really can't figure it out why CA won't release the source code. I'm sure they've seen this thread at least once, but still, I guess it doesn't matter.
What about actually making a petition and sending it over to them? Next year I'm off to uni in England, so I'll gladly hand them the petition personally.
I am not sure if this petition is going to impress CA. I mean, why vote no? It doesn't cost us anything. A more relevant question would be: if CA releases the source code, would you be able (and willing) to do something with it? M:TW source code is likely to be thousand and thousands of lines long, so even trying to understand how it works will be a major undertaking.
Unless they were really bad programmers who created it, it isn't that hard to piece it together and understand it, it does take time depending on how much code they used, but mostly depends on how good a job they did making it.
At least they're not Russians with Russian comments all through it.
Though I agree, they aren't going to think they have anything to gain by releasing it. Though I do think (with reference to Caravel's post) that they would gain from it, because the possible mods would still require the original game. Releasing the source code doesn't mean you release all license to the game. It doesn't make pirating legal.
:bow:
edyzmedieval
04-29-2009, 11:20
Look around, we still have a fair share of experienced MTW moddern around. Blind King of Bohemia, Axalon, Tyberius... Even me, if the source code would be released or at least have some option of getting it, I will gladly take up my best arms and join the modding fight.
Make a petition? Enough support? Enough votes?
How about we all make an e-mail and send it to CA?
Kaidonni
04-29-2009, 14:18
It's better than just sitting around talking about it, that. If I could just get rid of the battle mouse-over bug, I'd be happy. They are still selling the game, and it is their responsibility to inform people of the issues with it on more modern PCs (and a majority of gamers are not going to come to places like here at the Org or other Total War sites, they've only bought the game to play it casually). I knew there could be issues back in 2006 when I got Medieval Gold, but I was lucky. Others won't know, and won't be so lucky, even if it's as simple as only needing the button fix or tweaking a few graphics card settings. They'll be frustrated and want to return the game, and feel cheated by CA or Nvidia, or both. Not really that good for reputation. As long as a game is sold, there should be some semblance of support, not a pretence that all is fine. It is also inefficient to continue selling the game, expending resources on the production of the software and other items and shipping them to stores, if the most probable result is that people can't play it.
It is not as if anyone is looking to pirate the game by having the source code. Mentioned before is the fact that anything done with the source code would still require that people have the original game. That means people will still be paying for the game. Sure, there will be people who pirate the game, nothing can stop that. But short of not producing and selling any games, only so much can be done to combat that. Punishing paying customers and those of us who are honest and only have good intentions is not the way to combat it. Nothing malicious will be done with the source code, and it only needs to be given to certain trusted people. CA and Sega both know that people can be trusted in this manner, too - look at Jack Lusted. He tried his darned best to fix Rome and Medieval 2, and eventually got hired by CA because of his contribution. They believed in him enough to allow him to become more intimately involved with the development of their games. They trusted him, that he was right about the flaws in the games. It would not be so different with providing someone with the source code. We swing it in our favour by suggesting we pay to have it - maybe to 'hire' it, even, rather than own it. Non-disclosure agreements are all that is required, only certain modders being allowed to have access to the code. And even if someone did distribute it further and pirated it...all games have been pirated, and again it does not mean we are all like that. Most people will not go down that route, most are willing to pay for the game. Something about not stealing. CA and Sega would do well not to be too pessimistic about Human nature, it is insulting.
I believe the issue is even being made more complex than need be. Non-disclosure agreements, paying to be able to have access to altering the code, maybe even a system that stops it (or does a very good job at trying to stop it) from being distributed beyond the original recipients. Maybe something along the lines of CD-keys, and they can only be registered once. This could make everyone happy. And it could net CA and Sega more money and a better reputation. Medieval Total War is a timeless game. It is at a time when the Total War games were really only just starting. It is as classical as Age of Empires and Age of Empires 2, or Doom and Doom 2. Same goes for Shogun. Do they really want to let this game die?
It takes a lot of effort to alter the source code for a game, anyway. And an artistic eye, nonetheless. Your generic pirates aren't going to get anything from pirating the source code. There probably wouldn't even be any effort put into distributing it. We're not talking about downloading something to play here (although I am NOT endorsing such an action, might I add), we're talking about modding. Not only that, but programming and coding. Most people do not have the patience or the time to do any of that. If they have the skills, then they are less likely to be the scum that doesn't pay for games because they probably want to do something with programming as a career. People who mod and who code do not steal, they are not the common thieves CA and Sega might be taking them for. These are people who would easily sympathise, not just empathise, with the pain endured through seeing your artistic/commercial property stolen. They don't even want people to steal any of their work. And I don't think people like being hypocrits, so...
It is definitely time for us to do something. Either we make a concerted effort to make a future for MTW, or we just decide to play it until we no longer can and let it fade into the darkness of the past.
PS: Besides, petitions won't be enough by themselves - individuals are smart, but get people into large masses and see their true nature :laugh4:. What we need is to argue our points and ensure that we are in the right. Debates are all about that - argue your points, take what you can from your opponent, and still find a way to be right somehow and win. No point in trying to lose.
edyzmedieval
05-26-2009, 11:22
Very good point Kaidonni.
I was recently playing a bit of Medieval: Total War, to remind myself of the glory days of the Total War series, and I still throughly enjoyed the medieval and historic feel of the game, something which cannot be reproduced at all in M2TW. And at the same time I thought it's a real shame we can't do anything to fix the diplomacy and other bugs which clear hinder the game progress.
:no:
They are still selling the game, and it is their responsibility to inform people of the issues with it on more modern PCs (and a majority of gamers are not going to come to places like here at the Org or other Total War sites, they've only bought the game to play it casually).
I'm not sure as to the legality of that, though you probably have a point. You never see "maximum system requirements" on games, though there are a lot of old games still sold that either won't run well or won't run at all on newer hardware/software. From an ethical standpoint, CA were still selling STW/MTW as parts of the eras pack, so the problems should have been resolved by way of a patch prior to it's release.
Mentioned before is the fact that anything done with the source code would still require that people have the original game. That means people will still be paying for the game. Sure, there will be people who pirate the game, nothing can stop that. But short of not producing and selling any games, only so much can be done to combat that. Punishing paying customers and those of us who are honest and only have good intentions is not the way to combat it.
Exactly, but this is the world of proprietary software. Proprietary software assumes us all to be no better than thieves. We must then prove our innocence by passing the DRM. If we pass the DRM we're no longer a thief, even if we're someone that bypassed it...
Nothing malicious will be done with the source code, and it only needs to be given to certain trusted people. CA and Sega both know that people can be trusted in this manner, too - look at Jack Lusted. He tried his darned best to fix Rome and Medieval 2, and eventually got hired by CA because of his contribution. They believed in him enough to allow him to become more intimately involved with the development of their games. They trusted him, that he was right about the flaws in the games. It would not be so different with providing someone with the source code. We swing it in our favour by suggesting we pay to have it - maybe to 'hire' it, even, rather than own it. Non-disclosure agreements are all that is required, only certain modders being allowed to have access to the code.
You're on the wrong track here. If the source code is released, it should be released in it's entirety and available for download. The source code would be the code to the Medieval/Shogun win32 .exe files and any accompanying .dll files. CA need not release any of the game content. To clarify "game content" this is what modders modify: Graphics, scripts, sounds etc (about 95% of what comes on the CD is the game content).
Modders != programmers. Medieval/Shogun was coded in C/C++ using MSVC++ if I recall correctly. Unless any of our modders here are highly experienced with this, then they haven't much hope of doing anything with the source code. Editing a few .txt files is a whole different ballgame to coding. Once released, the source code will find it's way to the right people. There is no need for teams of lawyers or non disclosure agreements between individuals/companies.
Medieval Total War is a timeless game. It is at a time when the Total War games were really only just starting. It is as classical as Age of Empires and Age of Empires 2, or Doom and Doom 2. Same goes for Shogun. Do they really want to let this game die?
Quite frankly: Yes they do - and I am surprised at some of the naivety here. This is not about the fans, Total War or CA, but the multi-billion dollar profits of SEGA. STW/MTW is an old game engine. It has been abandoned and it is obvious that CA want to invest no time or effort in it. Hopefully you will get sick of trying to get MTW to work and go off and buy CA's newer games instead.
Oh and I may be somewhat off the mark here, but it seems to me that CA representatives never post in the forums for the older games. This thread was started over a year ago and still not one CA reply to date. This is probably policy. In short gentlemen you and your little predicament don't exist in the eyes of CA.
It is definitely time for us to do something. Either we make a concerted effort to make a future for MTW, or we just decide to play it until we no longer can and let it fade into the darkness of the past.
I'm afraid it's the latter option. You haven't a hope in hell of making this company release source code to anyone unless it benefits them. And they're not unusual in that. There are plenty of other companies hanging on to the source code of 10 - 20 year old titles.
They have released source code to a company porting RTW to the Mac - so where there's money to be made code can and will be released. STW/MTW source code will not be released because there's simply no profit in it.
:bow:
edyzmedieval
05-26-2009, 14:21
I'm afraid it's the latter option. You haven't a hope in hell of making this company release source code to anyone unless it benefits them. And they're not unusual in that. There are plenty of other companies hanging on to the source code of 10 - 20 year old titles.
They have released source code to a company porting RTW to the Mac - so where there's money to be made code can and will be released. STW/MTW source code will not be released because there's simply no profit in it.
:bow:
My point being.
Either somebody BUYS it off them for a big amount of money or we all make a team effort and we actually start a petition for the MTW source code to be released to specially designed modders.
My point being.
Either somebody BUYS it off them for a big amount of money or we all make a team effort and we actually start a petition for the MTW source code to be released to specially designed modders.
1) It would take more investment that any individual or company would be prepared to stump up. You're talking about a major investment in time, money, lawyers and people and companies, that have this at their disposal already - like the one are porting RTW to the Mac - wouldn't be interested. The potential consumer base is too small.
2) Historically CA ignore petitions - they even ignored this thread.
As I said: In the eyes of CA this is not an issue, it's not even happening.
:book2:
Medieval/Shogun was coded in C/C++ using MSVC++ if I recall correctly. Unless any of our modders here are highly experienced with this, then they haven't much hope of doing anything with the source code. Editing a few .txt files is a whole different ballgame to coding.
I use C++ and have the source to another game most of which I can readily understand. Though there is a TON of code there, it's all broken down into parts, and you don't need to understand all of it to do anything with it. It's not like C++ is encrypted, unless of course the CA programmers were evil.
Still, of course, our chance of getting it any time in the forseeable future is ~0%.
The parts of the code that allow you to change that which directly relates to the gameplay is more simplistic, i.e. hard coded events etc. It's when it gets to the game engine itself and DirectX function calls that it gets quite a bit more advanced. One of the first steps to improving the game IMHO would be porting it to OpenGL - thus getting rid of DirectX and any further driver/DirectX version/OS version issues that would arise from it (remember that OpenGL has an inbuilt software render so if all else fails you could do that - I often wonder what the old software render in shogun was based on and what happened to it in MTW?). Also with a Win32/OSX/Linux multiplatform approach there will be enough people working on it and interested, to make the best possible job of it.
But anyway, they won't release the code so yes this is all hypothetical at best.
Anyway - what am I doing here? Another time perhaps.
:bow:
edyzmedieval
05-26-2009, 19:23
1) It would take more investment that any individual or company would be prepared to stump up. You're talking about a major investment in time, money, lawyers and people and companies, that have this at their disposal already - like the one are porting RTW to the Mac - wouldn't be interested. The potential consumer base is too small.
2) Historically CA ignore petitions - they even ignored this thread.
As I said: In the eyes of CA this is not an issue, it's not even happening.
:book2:
1) Major investment as in? You just need someone to buy it, one lawyer to sort the papers, a handful of dedicated guys to rework and then the lawyer again to strike a deal with CA. Simple as that.
2) That's very true. But I believe in the "There's a beginning for everything..."
Hi people,
While I am totally sympathetic to your goal here Edyz, I believe that both Caravel and Garnier are right. And that pretty much sets "the seal of doom" for me on this, if that makes any sense here? If you want to peruse this I won’t stop you of course, but I won’t help much either since I just like the others don’t see how this will happen any time soon (if ever), sad but true….
Anyway, dont listen to boring 'ol gloomy me - keep on going if you believe in it strongly enough! It probably would have generated more money out of MTW, but CA obviously does not see things that way (yet, let’s hope that this will change, it did happen with the Myth 2-game so it’s not completely impossible)…
- Cheers
*Grand visions of mod allowing the actual campaign map to be played on multiplayer* O.K. back to reality :)
I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..
edyzmedieval
06-16-2009, 13:25
I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..
This goes to show the atachment Total War veterans have towards this game...
Creative Assembly, please take notice.
dragula42
06-19-2009, 01:15
In Information Systems 300 our professor told us that sometimes customer service is so bad sometimes that people build anti-sites. The example she gave was www.ihatedell.com
Perhaps we could do something similar for TCA? since asking them nicely isn't doing anything?
just a thought I had, perhaps it would motivate them more to fix the problems...
Well if someone wants to contact CA,and find out if they are willing to sell,or at least let us look at the source code,as I can't see Nvidia fixing this anytime soon. With so many dedicated modders here,I'm 99% sure we could fix the problem,IF we can get a look at the code and find out what's causing the problems in the first place..
What would be the best way to contact CA and see what they are willing to do for us,about the MTW souce code? Not exactly sure of the best way to get in contact with them,except for the tech support e-mail address..
Well if someone wants to contact CA,and find out if they are willing to sell,or at least let us look at the source code,as I can't see Nvidia fixing this anytime soon. With so many dedicated modders here,I'm 99% sure we could fix the problem,IF we can get a look at the code and find out what's causing the problems in the first place..
Modders are not programmers. In order to fix the problems in MTW you would need to give full source code to an experienced C/C++ coder.
What would be the best way to contact CA and see what they are willing to do for us,about the MTW souce code? Not exactly sure of the best way to get in contact with them,except for the tech support e-mail address..
Have a look at CA's site but don't expect any replies. At best you will get a generic, politically worded answer. In a nutshell you are wasting your time and this thread is a complete waste of time. Sorry to be negative, but this thread will still be here in a few years and nothing will have changed.
edyzmedieval
03-03-2010, 09:05
If someone actually goes to the CA offices with a letter/petition in hand signed by a lot of people, then I'm sure they will have at least a thought over it.
Plus, they can only gain after it.
I hate to rain on your parade, but it ain't gonna happen.
Hello,
It is not simple for the games developers to release the source code for a game. The CA team of today are not the CA team of 2000 - 2002. Also when it comes to source code, it is not just the developer that can decide about this, the publisher(s) is also a big factor. The "intellectual property" is also a factor, the source code may be jointly owned. In short it's bound to be very complex.
I have read about cases like this before, where the rights to a certain game were owned not by the developers but by a previous publisher which prevented the game source ever being released. The publisher in question refused to cooperate so nothing came of it.
There is also the fact that CA have shown no willingness to provide any assistance to those still trying to play STW/MTW. There have been no posts in this thread from CA representatives after almost 2 years.
CA have also stated on numerous occasions in the past that they discount "online petitions" - so I doubt written petitions would carry much weight either. Besides it would be rather difficult to get together a written petition of any real value, considering this is all internet based and people like to protect their anonymity. There is also the small matter of this thread only consisting of 2 pages and a handful of people. Do you believe a company like CA will take notice of this small minority?
I am quite certain that this is not going to happen - for what it's worth I support what you are trying to do and agree with it in principle. But looking at this realistically, CA are not going to provide the source code for this game.
Regards
Yohei
Good post Yohei.
In any case MTW is history for CA - there is insider info that they won't touch the game code to fix problems and i very much doubt that they have any benefit or intention to release the code for free or otherwise. The old TWs will die off and that's it. Buy Nappy :)
The only hope is that CA/Activision/SEGA/Whomever else give someone like Good Old Games the rights to fix the software/hardware issues that affect newer systems. But, CA and it's publishing companies over the years have become more and more detached from the community and also the needs of the consumer (ETW/NTW lack of mod tools a key example). Personally (and this is based on my marketing knowledge) I feel that the series will not continue much longer and as a going concern Creative Assembly will not exist much longer either. There is a significant disconnect between what they are producing and the needs and wants of the PC gaming consumer.
And yet they sell more than ever before. I read a post a ttwcentre that even claimed that the pre-orders for NTW made more sales than RTW to date.
There is no doubt that CA moved away from its core community. The guys in twc that have "started playing since Shogun" may be a dime a dozen, but in reality one can tell that the vast majority of them joined after RTW/M2. Despite the complaining waves and even the poor user reception for ETW,TW as a commercial venture is alive and well, and as far as this is so i cant see them quiting or SEGA letting them quit.
If and when CA makes a RTW2 or anything else there are enough fanboys and general interest from the pc gaming market to keep them going for another 10 years with or without mod tools. The multiplayer camp may also well be a huge success. I have to admit that it is cleverly implemented (only two players and one is playing against the other in any battle the other fights be it against the player or the AI factions), and would have loved to play such in the older games. If this is a success, complains about the AI, and indeed a need for a very advanced AI may well be a thing of the past.
The multiplayer camp may also well be a huge success. I have to admit that it is cleverly implemented (only two players and one is playing against the other in any battle the other fights be it against the player or the AI factions), and would have loved to play such in the older games. If this is a success, complains about the AI, and indeed a need for a very advanced AI may well be a thing of the past.
MP is only a small, though important, niche and will probably remain that way. The issue is still campaign map AI and diplomacy which have been found wanting. Yes the average player, or CA's "casual gamer" as they're referred to nowadays, that is to say their target consumer, may overlook crappy fastclicking battles but not shortcomings/bugs on the campaign map level.
Well that's exactly the point - that competitive mp play in battles only had a small fraction of the market, but campaign mp may well be a success in that, and in this case, diplomacy and AI won't be that much of a problem. A campaign mp game will be satisfying because the battles will be and because in the campaign the other player will also be trying to smack you.
To be honest its not that newer total wars lack tactical and strategic dimensions, but that these are terribly underworked and lack optimisation. The reasons for this are well known/suspected: there is an emphasis in graphics and presentation, an emphasis in additional features and games within the game t make the game more broad in its appeal and more pleasing etc However the core game has not been lost, its been simply carried over and used to fill commercial expectations rather than improving it. This is the major sin of ca and tw for me, that they wanted to succeed more than they wanted to succeed in their own terms. However, they had every right, from the start to do so; its their game.
To the point: i dont think that tw will dissapearany time soon.
:bow:
edyzmedieval
04-16-2010, 22:18
I looked over this thread again and noticed the overwhelming majority at the poll - 38 for, 3 against.
This shows how much support MTW has.
I fired up MTW a couple of days ago, and all of those good memories, the "feeling" you had when you started up MTW came back to me. A glorious moment.
To be honest its not that newer total wars lack tactical and strategic dimensions, but that these are terribly underworked and lack optimisation. The reasons for this are well known/suspected: there is an emphasis in graphics and presentation
The market that was catered to starting with the 2nd generation TW games (Rome, MTW2) demand graphical updates at such a pace that further
improvements to the basic game mechanics and features are unlikely to occur. This is the biggest problem concerning the continuation of the
franchise. What the consumers want and will get are more polygons, higher resolution textures, and better particle effects that steal so many working
hours and resources to produce that increasing, say, the number of men on the battlefield (a real and tangible gameplay dynamic) becomes
extremely difficult. By fixating on updates to the textures of the troops, increased computing power will only be wasted to please the
graphics craving masses rather than increasing the number of men that can smoothly be displayed. Or think of the balance issues
that could be better sorted out with more time alloted.
And on the AI side of things, it will only get worse which we STW/MTW players are well aware of.
an emphasis in additional features and games within the game t make the game more broad in its appeal and more pleasing etc However the core game has not been lost, its been simply carried over and used to fill commercial expectations rather than improving it. This is the major sin of ca and tw for me, that they wanted to succeed more than they wanted to succeed in their own terms. However, they had every right, from the start to do so; its their game.
The direction taken by CA during the last 7-8 years do indicate that an expansion in features rather than meaningful and polished
gameplay mechanics is the norm. So yes, you are unfortunately right. We oldtimers are commercially insignificant due to not
providing a revenue stream to SEGA anymore. A petition changes nothing, and as said by others, complaining about lack
of support for older titles is a waste of time...
I fired up MTW a couple of days ago, and all of those good memories, the "feeling" you had when you started up MTW came back to me. A glorious moment.
Indeed :smiley:
I reckon that the Main Hall needs a new story for the "Pics and History" thread. Maybe I'll step up....
You most certainly should step up Durango - you could even start your own thread. I love reading AARs.
:bow:
Vladimir
04-21-2010, 00:27
The time honored "Risk" styled game never gets old.
I definately prefer the 'bland' risk style strat map to the colorful 'deep' map of editions of TW following MTW.
I definately prefer the 'bland' risk style strat map to the colorful 'deep' map of editions of TW following MTW.
You're not the only one who feel that way. I really dislike the gaudy, cartoonish and "gamey" campaign map in comparison with the traditional
parchment look. Everybody agrees that MTW has way more atmosphere, yet few admit that the exaggerated graphics of today look worse.
If they could somehow combine today's flashy graphics with the old strat map and field battles, that would be great!
edit: I actually think the current strat map feels alittle more desolate than the old one.
You're not the only one who feel that way. I really dislike the gaudy, cartoonish and "gamey" campaign map in comparison with the traditional
parchment look. Everybody agrees that MTW has way more atmosphere, yet few admit that the exaggerated graphics of today look worse.
I do. not that I talk much of it.
as to sourcecodes: I agree, CA can, and should, release the sourcecodes: ID (my favorite company for all FPS needs), has done that for Q's 1-3, as mentioned earlier, and they have yet to collapse. in fact, they were bought up, as CA was, by a larger company. (since sega now "owns" CA)
now I figured I might get in trouble for what I'm about to say next, but I am currently so fed up with the ridiculous limitations I see in all CA games since MTW, that I have-no kidding-started work on a new executable, a new game. it'l be similar to the TW series, with-hopefully, the best features of all the games put together and improved-from scratch of course, seeing as hacking the exe is illegal, and no source code exists.. other than that, I'm not going to go into the details.
EDIT: no, I am not in favor of hacking, piracy, or anything of that sort. I never realeased the virus to the public either.
EDIT: well, on second thought: I envision a model limit of 1-2000 models (in .rum or .cas format*), no culture limits, and a 1-2000 unit limit. there will be no unit size limit, animations will be similar to M2TW, and 50 playable factions as a minimum. the map will be a hybrid between the MTW and RTW styles, only the province limit will be 1000. of course, one needs an easily moddable, but highly base-effective, battlefield and strategy AI set.
*its cheaper on memory.
Sounds very, very ambitious. I commend your dedication :bow:
A couple of questions:
1. What is your "philosophy" when it comes to strategy games? What is most important to you?
2. What kind of overall graphical fidelity will the game feature?
3. How long could it take for you to finish this project?
4. How many people do you expect to involve in this?
5. Do you have a need for someone to perform graphical tasks and design the aesthetical look of certain game features?
You can check out the campaign map that I made for MTW XL if you want, it's in the modding section. I have looked into
various ways to enhance the graphical feel of the original game ever since I got it.
Cheers!
Good luck with that Ibrahim, programming is quite fun, and far more an art than a science i've been told.
:bow:
Good luck, but if you're only just learning programming I recommend you accomplish much simpler things that will be useful, first. MTW took years to complete and that was a team of paid professionals.
Sounds very, very ambitious. I commend your dedication :bow:
A couple of questions:
1. What is your "philosophy" when it comes to strategy games? What is most important to you?
2. What kind of overall graphical fidelity will the game feature?
3. How long could it take for you to finish this project?
4. How many people do you expect to involve in this?
5. Do you have a need for someone to perform graphical tasks and design the aesthetical look of certain game features?
You can check out the campaign map that I made for MTW XL if you want, it's in the modding section. I have looked into
various ways to enhance the graphical feel of the original game ever since I got it.
Cheers!
1-well, it sholdn't be too easy, or too hard (i.e not as easy as elf bowling or hard as Silver surfur). I prefer immersive gameplay, kinda like MTW, STW, and EB are like. I'm not into eyecandy as much as the gameplay itself. I also am on the simple side of things: the simpler, the better. but I also want flexibility. MTW came close on most grounds IMHO, but it can be improved. graphics come to mind
2-up to the level of RTW for the battlefield (animations: M2TW): one of the big problems with today's graphics is that they are way too good; many computers can't handle that, and they take up too much space IMO. they're also a pain to mod at times.
3-that's if I finish: years. yeah, I am a realist about these things. much of the time will be on executable making and game balancing.
4-as many as possible: I'm particularly short on programmers, and I'm a pretty basic one myself. the models and skins are already done, as well as the scenario.
5-any helps is appreciated.
@ garnier: that's actually what I'm doing atm
but back to business: we are all, for the most part, of the same mind anyways: It is indeed a good idea to send a petition to the CA for source codes. should we make an official petition paper, stating our aims? we can type in our names (user or real, up to the OP), and get as many people as possible to sign it. of course we need a strong leader/lobbyist to argue the point, for as many people already mentioned, a petition by itself won't be noticed by CA.
or should we just show them this thread? I persoanally prefer the former. its more formal, and can more effectively sum up our position.
edyzmedieval
05-14-2010, 19:58
I definitely agree with Ibrahim regarding the formal petition. I'm done with finals this upcoming week, I'll draft up an initial petition if some people agree with it after reading my post.
:yes:
edyzmedieval
05-27-2010, 14:56
I was wondering if anyone agrees with the petition, a.k.a. ready to sign it. ~:)
Sounds like a good idea to me. MTW was so enjoyable, it would be nice to see what more could come of it. Also, it would be a shame to let MTW be relegated to the past.
well, now that I'm back in force, I say we get to it. :beam:
who will draw the petition up?
edyzmedieval
06-08-2010, 17:18
How's about we do a common petition aka more of us draft it up? I'm up for it.
How's about we do a common petition aka more of us draft it up? I'm up for it.
sure. now to coordinate.
Wytchfynder
07-04-2010, 12:48
You're not the only one who feel that way. I really dislike the gaudy, cartoonish and "gamey" campaign map in comparison with the traditional
parchment look. Everybody agrees that MTW has way more atmosphere, yet few admit that the exaggerated graphics of today look worse. I agree with this quote. mtw has more atmosphere. The maps of rtw and mtw2 aint so bad but the maps of empire and napoleon are real bad.
I dunno how anyone can those two maps seriously if you are over 16. its like moving kids cartoon pieces around dolls houses.
I agree with this quote. mtw has more atmosphere. The maps of rtw and mtw2 aint so bad but the maps of empire and napoleon are real bad.
I dunno how anyone can those two maps seriously if you are over 16. its like moving kids cartoon pieces around dolls houses.
Well that's how I usually think of the RTW/M2TW map. :laugh4:
CA should follow the example of these guys (http://7kfans.com/?p=1) IMO
Wytchfynder
07-05-2010, 12:23
Just thinking out loud..CA could pull off a major PR coup and positive publicity by releasing some kind of 'charity version' of med1 and shogun1 combined with the bulk of profits going to charity and the rest covering their expenses in allocating a few CA guys to work with the source code and trusted/respected modders or coders in the community fanbase.
mtw1 & stw1 combined with original risk campaign map fixed up for w7 and modern grafix cards and battles maybe tweaked up to rtw standards.
rtw battles still look ok and a charity version would sell well cos people would be helping others plus plenty of people in the world without monster gaming rigs and aint too bothered by mega flashy graphics.
Just thinking out loud..CA could pull off a major PR coup and positive publicity by releasing some kind of 'charity version' of med1 and shogun1 combined with the bulk of profits going to charity and the rest covering their expenses in allocating a few CA guys to work with the source code and trusted/respected modders or coders in the community fanbase.
mtw1 & stw1 combined with original risk campaign map fixed up for w7 and modern grafix cards and battles maybe tweaked up to rtw standards.
rtw battles still look ok and a charity version would sell well cos people would be helping others plus plenty of people in the world without monster gaming rigs and aint too bothered by mega flashy graphics.
Agreed. I was just introduced to this thread and wholeheartedly agree with the concept.
edyzmedieval
09-19-2010, 01:41
When it comes to the business decisions, I think it is rather SEGA who adopts these policies rather than CA because in the end it has to be part of a revenue plan from the mother-company that includes all subsidiaries.
Still, releasing the source code, even for a certain amount of cash, would equal a step in the right direction.
Just re-read the whole thread (partly to jostle the memory and partly cause it's now my job and work is a little slow ~;)).
Do we know who exactly has the rights to MTW? Does Sega/CA own them exclusively, or does Activision still have some say? My recently purchased STW off Amazon has the Sega logo on the box and on one of the opening screens, don't know about MTW. Either way, I doubt we are getting source. So what are the other options?
It's possible that CA has identified a problem with nVidia cards/drivers. Changing the MTW code to work around this will cost a lot of money to fix, and it would be a workaround, not a fix, so CA probably isn't willing to put forth that effort. CA doesn't and can't control the driver codebase for nVidia, so it's a no go. nVidia probably doesn't care (financially) either, it's possible that their drivers are coded in such a way that a change to fix MTW will affect too much else.
After thinking about it some, I think we need someone with code experience in DirectX, maybe someone who has been messing around with the nVidia Linux drivers. Create a wrapper lib with log/debug hooks for the Windows DirectX library, and see where the problems occur. Then try to rewrite the offending function(s) and offer up a aux DirectX library to get around the issue.
How's about we do a common petition aka more of us draft it up? I'm up for it.
I'd be willing to put my real name to a petition if someone could draft one in such a way that it won't be ignored.
I'd be willing to put my real name to a petition if someone could draft one in such a way that it won't be ignored.
Would it be one of those Online Petitions? (You know, how they have 'online petition signatures' on some special petition sites?)
Would it be one of those Online Petitions? (You know, how they have 'online petition signatures' on some special petition sites?)
I'd assume so,but that's really up to whoever sets up the petition.
As I've said earlier in the thread, I don't think CA recognise petitions - certainly not online ones. Regardless, talking about the petition won't get it done, someone needs to take the initiative and set one up.
:2cents:
As I've said earlier in the thread, I don't think CA recognise petitions - certainly not online ones. Regardless, talking about the petition won't get it done, someone needs to take the initiative and set one up.
:2cents:
But if the CA fan community connects to each other via the Internet (see TWC, the Guild, etc.), then how does one go about representing the community without use of the Internet?
That's a good question - but you're asking the wrong person.
Petitions are prohibited over at the .com (official CA) forums and have also been dismissed here in the past. I seriously don't think you'll have any luck with a petition.
:bow:
That's a good question - but you're asking the wrong person.
Petitions are prohibited over at the .com (official CA) forums and have also been dismissed here in the past. I seriously don't think you'll have any luck with a petition.
:bow:
Precisely what I was thinking, because as far as I know, almost every game that has had its source code made open has been so by decision by developers, not via a petition.
I'd be curious to know if a software guy at CA/Sega has actually looked into the nVidia problem. The company may not be willing to pay to rework the code/QA/patch, especially if the problem is with nVidia's implementation, but I wonder if they have identified the culprit calls. That knowledge might be useful for a community-led workaround, and wouldn't require the drastic step of source code release.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-26-2010, 17:57
Sure, why should they not release it?
Gaiseric
09-30-2010, 22:58
I voted yes, though I doubt a petition will have any effect.
I am a big time pc gamer. I have been playing pc games for over 15 years and I have hundreds of pc games. I am just getting into modding some games, although I find it very tedious. I dont know any programming languages and the source code would be useless to me.
Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.
I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.
Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.
I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.
Except you don't actually own the code when you buy the game. You just own one license to play the game. Copyright is pretty complicated and, heck, there's a reason why we have so many specialized copyright lawyers.
EDIT: And in light of copyright laws, you aren't free to edit certain things, or at least edit and distribute the new versions as long as you don't own the rights to whatever is in question. I know I might go into law in a couple of years, but whatever it is, it certainly will NOT be copyright law. Sheesh, some complicated stuff for me! And btw, you're completely right about the law. The only way this can be avoided (this whole copyright entanglement), is if the laws were changed to make certain things possible that are impossible today. But as we all know, changing the law takes time and effort. Not an overnight, easy task. Definitely worth it most of the time, if it means better life for citizens.
Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.
I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.
Without a public release of the source code, the source falls under copyright. The object code (compiled and linked executable) is what is sold on the disk, along with the artwork/music/configuration files. The source remains the property of CA/Sega.
If for some reason CA did release the source code, I imagine it would be covered under some form of license which would restrict how it could be distributed. Something along the lines of the GPL, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it, even if you modified it extensively.
Gaiseric
09-30-2010, 23:29
Except you don't actually own the code when you buy the game. You just own one license to play the game. Copyright is pretty complicated and, heck, there's a reason why we have so many specialized copyright lawyers.
Is that what the liscense agreements say when you click agree to install the game? I never read them, but I have to accept them to install the game. I guess if you get the game illegaly and bypass the agreement, you are free to modify the files?
If its on my computer, its my property!!!
I wonder how well these laws are enforced? I think it would be easy to realease a mod via a torrent, that edits the source code. With all the illegal torrents out there, they would never find the host.
Is that what the liscense agreements say when you click agree to install the game? I never read them, but I have to accept them to install the game. I guess if you get the game illegaly and bypass the agreement, you are free to modify the files?
If its on my computer, its my property!!!
I wonder how well these laws are enforced? I think it would be easy to realease a mod via a torrent, that edits the source code. With all the illegal torrents out there, they would never find the host.
Piracy is easier committed than prevented. Hence why we still have piracy in some seas today. And where we don't have it or have reduced it greatly, we have actually spent (and still spend) lots of money to keep it that way.
And yeah, you pretty much have to pay to play. I think it's what they call an End User License. And you own that license, correct. You don't own the code that eventuated that game, or anything of that sort. You just own one license. Just like I don't own Microsoft Windows, but own the license that lets me RUN that software on this computer (that allows me to reply to your posts, get online, and so on and so forth).
Gaiseric
09-30-2010, 23:59
Without a public release of the source code, the source falls under copyright. The object code (compiled and linked executable) is what is sold on the disk, along with the artwork/music/configuration files. The source remains the property of CA/Sega.
If for some reason CA did release the source code, I imagine it would be covered under some form of license which would restrict how it could be distributed. Something along the lines of the GPL, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it, even if you modified it extensively.
Since CA is doing nothing, there must be a way to bypass the liscence agreement. For instance what does the agreement\copywright allow you to do with the .exe? Does it specify what files can and can not be edited?
A workaround would be to not install MTW and get access to the .exe through your CD drive. Without having agreed to the liscense agreement, you would have no knowledge about what is and what is not your property. A person like me could even plead ignorance in court. I know very little programming and learned more about the source code today then I have my whole life.
The thought is someone who modifies the .exe through their CD drive, without installing the game and agreeing to the terms, could then host the changes. Every person who would download and use those changes would not edit their own .exe, but simply move it out of the MTW folder and move the modified version in.
There has got to be something that the gaming comunity can do instead of waiting around and signing petitions.
The .exe on the CD is the result of the compiler/linker converting the human readable source code files (C code and include files in this case) to a machine readable format (x86 Windows compatible). Not much can be done with the .exe without converting that back to a human readable format, and the conversion would not contain developer comments or useful symbol names (functions and variables). Basically worthless for the purposes of fixing these bugs or improving the game. The source code (.c and .h files, along with Makefiles) is what is necessary to do actual work, and these files remain on CA's servers (and hopefully backups :sweatdrop:) and remain CA's property unless they decide to release them to the public.
The EULA does not really have anything to do with basic copyright on a piece of software. It adds additional restrictions on the use of the files on the disk. The EULA does not cover source, since the source is not part of the product delivered on the CD and is already covered under copyright.
Anyhoo, discussion of torrents, EULA evading, DRM evading, piracy, and disassembling is not allowed at the Org. So let's get back to discussing the petition, shall we?
You could always do the nice thing and create a brand new indie battle engine.
edyzmedieval
10-03-2010, 00:03
If there is someone geeky enough with time to spare and cracks the source code + edits the bugs and makes the game the way we want it and then releases it on the torrents, CA has the right to sue the guy for infringement.
Hypothetically speaking. But in this world, anything can happen.
Gaiseric
10-04-2010, 02:15
All this source stuff is beyond me. Some other game companies have games that are more modifiable, but their game engines are still off limits. I think at least with MTW we get a very solid game that is not as bug-ridden as some of CAs newer releases. Even though these games were released with new features and have more mods, the mods can not cover up the core games flaws.
I think that instead of signing petitions the community should propose a deal to CA. Maybe they would be willing to make some changes to the source code and release it as a very, very late patch to MTW, if we provide them payment for the manhours. If I saw a list of what needed to be changed to MTW and felt that these changes would really alter gameplay, I would be willing to put some of my money in the MTW patch pool.
Some other game companies have games that are more modifiable, but their game engines are still off limits.
I wholeheartedly agree with this primarily because it allows people an outlet through which to express their creativity. You could think about any game, from a 3D Maze to a Battle Engine. And all of those could be made to be modifiable. From the walls along the maze to the skins on the soldiers. If you have a 'data' folder with the right tools or even open formats (or widely available formats), then the game is decently modifiable without the need to open-source your game.
Gaiseric
10-04-2010, 13:23
Do any of you guys play games made by Paradox? That is one of the few game companies that continues to support their games well after release. Their customer service is outstanding!!! They offer beta patches to the public and take note of ideas and suggestions for improvements from their forums. They then will give the customers the many of the improvements they want in the next patch. You can sometimes even talk directly to Johan, their lead programmer, who will make changes to the source. In addition to that, Paradox games are very modifiable and what cant be modified, can be suggested as an improvement for the next patch.
If more game companies were run like this it would be a lot easier on the fans and modders, and make for a much more enjoyable game experience.
As has been discussed at length earlier in this thread, doing what other developers do in making games more open and easier to mod is a good thing, but it doesn't address the problems, bugs and incompatibilities in STW/MTW. To address problems like units disappearing in battle, graphical glitches causing CTD's on the MTW campaign map, slow fps on the campaign map, flickering menus and slow campaign/battle loading times in MTW - basically the game breaker problems that are stopping many of us, including myself from playing - the only real solution is a new patch (which won't happen) or release of the source code (that won't happen either - but it's probably more likely than a new patch).
The only hope for STW/MTW players is if the source code is released privately under licence to someone like Good old Games: http://www.gog.com/ . The downside of that is that you will end up paying all over again for a game that you've already bought. It's also far less preferable in my view to an all out release of the source code. Releasing the source will allow for porting to other platforms and some extensive modding (adding new features, writing a new AI, etc).
Theoretically an engine (in STW/MTW's case engines) could be built to make use of the existing MTW game media. This has been done for other games such as the Monkey Island series, the Bioware Infinity engined games (BG, PST, IWD etc) and Transport Tycoon. This hasn't happened for MTW because no one with the interest, the knowledge or expertise has stepped forward and STW/MTW is far more complex than those games.
:2cents:
The only hope for STW/MTW players is if the source code is released privately under licence to someone like Good old Games: http://www.gog.com/ . The downside of that is that you will end up paying all over again for a game that you've already bought. It's also far less preferable in my view to an all out release of the source code. Releasing the source will allow for porting to other platforms and some extensive modding (adding new features, writing a new AI, etc).
Probably our best bet, I don't see a source release or an unpaid patch. Having GOG do the debugging work and paying $5-$10 bucks for the updated game would be reasonable.
Theoretically an engine (in STW/MTW's case engines) could be built to make use of the existing MTW game media. This has been done for other games such as the Monkey Island series, the Bioware Infinity engined games (BG, PST, IWD etc) and Transport Tycoon. This hasn't happened for MTW because no one with the interest, the knowledge or expertise has stepped forward and STW/MTW is far more complex than those games.
How are these efforts received by the developers/publishers? Are there issues with "unauthorized" use of the copyrighted artwork/music?
As far as I know there's nothing developers/publishers can do so long as the author of the ported game engine does not distribute their original content or infringe on any copyright. This is how openTTD and scummVM work. You can only download the engine to run the game, not the games themselves nor any of the original material. OpenTTD has advanced to the stage that it has open game media, so it's essentially just a complete open source clone now.
Theoretically an engine (in STW/MTW's case engines) could be built to make use of the existing MTW game media. This has been done for other games such as the Monkey Island series, the Bioware Infinity engined games (BG, PST, IWD etc) and Transport Tycoon. This hasn't happened for MTW because no one with the interest, the knowledge or expertise has stepped forward and STW/MTW is far more complex than those games.
The only problem would be if a person or persons made an engine that could accept the data folder of MTW (or at least most of it), he/she/they would not be able to make any money by doing so. It'd have to be purely voluntary, legally speaking, correct?
It would be free and open source software as with ScummVM and OpenTTD, yes.
Generally, people who do this sort of thing do it for the love of a game, or as a challenge. The rest of us have jobs or family. :rolleyes:
edyzmedieval
10-18-2010, 16:00
Generally, people who do this sort of thing do it for the love of a game, or as a challenge. The rest of us have jobs or family. :rolleyes:
And yet, there is Europa Barbarorum who created a completely new game just based on an engine and managed to get past the obstacles.
So yes, it is possible.
And yet, there is Europa Barbarorum who created a completely new game just based on an engine and managed to get past the obstacles.
So yes, it is possible.
No, EB is a mod not a "completely new game". It does not involve any real coding/programming, only scripting. RTW is also much more versatile in terms of modding - which is why something as epic as EB was possible.
I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince people in this thread that modding a game != programming. :shrug:
In my view, if the release of the source code is desirable, a petition is your only option. CA may not have changed their position on this, but a petition may be the only outlet for your efforts here. Bumping this thread every few months for another few years won't achieve much. You will need maximum exposure, so I'm not sure how you'd go about this. Perhaps something based on a popular social networking site? Then post links to it on all the major total war sites - but be careful at the .com - ask permission first. A joint Shogun/Medieval source code release would be the best objective to go for. I can't imagine CA would release the MTW code before the STW code and at least this will cover it.
:bow:
No, EB is a mod not a "completely new game". It does not involve any real coding/programming, only scripting. RTW is also much more versatile in terms of modding - which is why something as epic as EB was possible.
Simple differences in the realities of two people. For edyzmedieval, EB is a completely new game in that it offers a completely new experience, whatever he may have that mean. You have it mean a new game from scratch, including coding. I think it's nice that everyone has different perceptions; it'd be boring otherwise!
I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince people in this thread that modding a game != programming. :shrug:
Let's be more lenient. Ed's idea is not that modding a game is programming. The idea is that modding a game gives you a "new" game. That is, a new game in your virtual reality of gaming.
In my view, if the release of the source code is desirable, a petition is your only option. CA may not have changed their position on this, but a petition may be the only outlet for your efforts here. Bumping this thread every few months for another few years won't achieve much. You will need maximum exposure, so I'm not sure how you'd go about this. Perhaps something based on a popular social networking site? Then post links to it on all the major total war sites - but be careful at the .com - ask permission first. A joint Shogun/Medieval source code release would be the best objective to go for. I can't imagine CA would release the MTW code before the STW code and at least this will cover it.
Facebook is the most popular of the social networking sites if I'm not mistaken. Who's up for an activist group rallying around the release of the code? Hah, just playing. I'm no STW or MTW player. Good luck y'all (I'll be following this, though, it's interesting; I'll share links on my sites if it gets anywhere!)
Despite the fruitlesness - in my view - of the thread, the discussion is really inetersting. In any case, MTW is an unrepeatable classic, much in line with oldschool boardgames. Its a pitty for it to be left to drown in the sands of time. I am sure that CA won't do anything to sort the problems the remaining community has in playing it (and that community would be far larger if new pcs and video cards etc could play the game), however i sincerely hope it does.
The Blind King of Bohemia
10-22-2010, 13:07
It does make a nice 'what if' discussion but there is little point to it. I love the game as much as anyone but nothing will happen regarding the source code.
Caravel is right regarding EB. Outstanding mod, with hours of time and effort gone in, but it is not a completely new game. It changes the game so much for the better but that is due to it being a historical accurate, well researched and balanced modification with great design and gorgeous skins, not being a new game.
It does make a nice 'what if' discussion but there is little point to it. I love the game as much as anyone but nothing will happen regarding the source code.
Caravel is right regarding EB. Outstanding mod, with hours of time and effort gone in, but it is not a completely new game. It changes the game so much for the better but that is due to it being a historical accurate, well researched and balanced modification with great design and gorgeous skins, not being a new game.
Depends on what constitutes "new game", and hence no right answer.
Yeah, he means new game as new mechanics that come about by hardcoded means. You mean new gameplay.
Nice to see you BKB. :medievalcheers:
A "new game" is quite easy to define. For what it's worth I know what edyz was getting at, but a modification is still not a "new game". Besides, RTW could be modded extensively, MTW could not. We can add new factions, maps, provinces, units etc - MTW can be turned into something like the SW mod or Ancient TW, but when it comes to something advanced like adding an opengl renderer, porting to another platform, or something as seemingly simple as adding/changing vices and virtues or hardcoded events like the arrival of the mongols there's nothing modders can do (not to mention fixing bugs).
A petition is the best (only?) option. They can only say "no" after all.
:bow:
How about a new game? i.e. an MTW clone? These can only be done if for non-profit?
Nice of you to offer - do you have a release date?
I'd still go with the petition. As had been said they can only say no. I'd start one myself but I'm not exactly the best petition writer,and have no idea where to lodge such a petition. How knows, If we get enough names we might be suprised..
Wytchfynder
12-04-2010, 12:41
I've noticed EA giving away their C&C & Red Alert game for free, and that got a big thumbs up from the EA players. I've also noticed that the Cossacks game has been released in a w7 playable netbook version for a small price. With so many people using netbooks it could be a money spinner to do the same thing for mtw1.
EA gave away stuff for free to celebrate 10 years so CA could do the same and give away mtw1 or stw.
If not, they could still make money doing a w7 netbook version like the Cossacks guys have done.
sharpshooter
12-06-2010, 09:07
I'm curious - has anyone approached CA directly?
I'd be surprised if they answered here. Some years ago a group of friends entered into discussions with Bullfrog/EA over a game called Dungeonkeeper (great game!). EA were not interested, but the talks kept going inconclusively until EA folded Bullfrog and discontinued RTS games. Now I hear EA are releasing the source code to a Chinese development agency. The point is that EA would only deal with a corporate identity in which they had a stake, with licences, NDA's, and payments etc.
IMHO if someone did approach CA/Sega it would be important to sell it on the benefits to CA, and those benefits should contain figures representing cash. Simply saying you have the will to do it and the present set up is crap won't cut it.
In short, I think you'd need to give them a proposal that the business people there could understand. Their developers and designers would have no say in the matter. Such a proposal would need to identify the issues, show the solutions, and, importantly, show where the gain for CA is, especially in terms of sales/cash etc. Good will isn't a line on the profit and loss account, despite the fact we all know it matters tremendously for their product. They do, however, count PR for something.
That said, I'm voting "yes" in the poll, and would definitely pay cash for the results.
Without a contract I seriously doubt CA would just release source. I would imagine very few people can actually play the game out of the box on 1 year-old systems, so it surprises me that CA wouldn't hire GoG to rework it. Or update it themselves and release on Steam. From a business standpoint, this would be preferable since a patch or source release would be free, a download via GoG or Steam could bring in some revenue. For 5-10 bucks/pounds/euros/whatever, I'm sure many would re-purchase just to have a working version.
sharpshooter
12-28-2010, 23:10
I want to say I think it would be great if community developers got access to the source code. It's how to go about it that's the issue.
Firstly, it's a business decision that will be taken by business people. So, whatever is proposed to them has to have a business case. The developers probably won't be consulted, unless about technical and game design issues.
So, a 2 page proposal would probably do - with a nice cover sheet, an executive summary at the front, and headed up as something like "Proposal to increase saleability of MTW through releasing source code to developer community".
All/most of the things that should go into the proposal have been covered in this post. It just needs to be gathered together, and presented in a document that can be circulated amongst the relevant CA/Sega business people.
It will need to make a business case, and cover costs, risks, mitigation of risks and next steps.
A business case is:
- increase sales life of existing title with no investment
- increase customer satisfaction through solving existing technical issues
- increase brand loyalty by engaging with committed gamer community
- create brand advocates through release of source code (here you can give the examples of EA releasing Red Alert source code, and how the gamer community loved them for it).
This is the kind of language they speak - I deal with them all the time.
Then they'll want to know about costs, risks etc.
Costs:
- minimal: administrative resources needed to manage gamer community engagement
- value of gamer developers investment of time worth £125,000
- (you can quantify this - e.g 5 x developers @ £60 per hour for around 50 days)
- QA (Testing) of release candidate: 2 x testers for 5 days = say, £5,000
Risks
- loss of source code (someone might post it on the internet, just because they can)
- competitor gains access to source code (and hence game design)
- developers sell their own version of the game
- errors in redeveloped product damage brand value
Mitigation of Risks
- each instance of the source code uniquely identifiable
- each instance of source code kept on secure server/pc with individual log in
- signed NDA and contract allowing suing of those in breach
- developer QA and internal QA
For a business person, the thought of 50 versions of their source code scattered over an unquantifiable number of computers, with lots of access to all kinds of people - that is their worst nightmare.
They'll worry - "hey, what if these guys start selling the damn thing on the sly themselves? What if they sell it to someone in China/Russia/India"
They'll also worry - "is this going to give away our game design for the whole series? What if a competitor gets a hold of it?"
These are all legitimate concerns, and simple exhortation, or waving aside of risks etc. is not going to cut it.
Participants in the project:
Now they'll want to know who they're dealing with. A list of the people who will be involved in this project, what their skill set is and why they're qualified to do the work, etc. Brief, but this must be covered.
Next Steps
- response to the proposal
- meet with developer community
- agree procedures and contractual arrangements
- agree sign off procedure (of course they'll want to check what you've done before putting it out to sale)
Someone with a bit of skill with Word, and the commitment to put together the case could probably do this in a few hours. Ideally it should go as pdf. A real coup would also be having a powerpoint presentation - so the thing can be presented on a screen in 5 minutes.
Yes, formatting, graphics, presentation etc. is all important. The more professional you look, and the more you look like you understand their point of view the more influence your proposal will have.
The executive summary is essential because the top business people, the actual decision makers, won't read a long or even medium document. They want it in a nutshell, and a 90 second read is ideal for them.
Next steps for the MTW community:
The final issue is - is there a group of 5 or 6 gamers on this community who would commit to doing this? Go on, put your hands up! :D. That's much more important than voting in a poll.
Seeing no-one has put there hands up so far,maybe it would be a good idea to see about contacting a few of the major mod designers and see if they'd be interested? Or approach GOG about contacting Sega to see if they can acquire it and redo the code for modern systems? Just a thought
Togakure
01-08-2011, 17:49
sharpshooter I'm just becoming aware of this thread but I wanted to acknowledge your fine post and advice. Anyone looking to forward this initiative would do well to consider what you have written. Well done, and thank you.
edyzmedieval
02-04-2011, 23:37
I'm echoing Togakure's words, Sharpshooter has given us a very good account on how to proceed. I'm tinkering with his words, thinking over what could be done.
edyzmedieval
04-11-2011, 20:38
Our beloved Medieval Total War is reaching the 10th year of it's existence next year in 2012, and with that I was wondering perhaps a formatted e-mail with Sharpshooter's arguments on behalf of the Org community would be in order?
The aim would be rather a quick fix of the stringent video card/issues rather than the source code, which will not be given unless payment is made.
Trapped in Samsara
04-12-2011, 13:23
- value of gamer developers investment of time worth £125,000
Hi
Not looking to rain on anybody's parade, but does the MTW fanbase have people with the skills and time to make use of the sourcecode, were CA/SEGA to make it available?
I'd love it to be so.
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
Yes, I admire sharpshooter's intentions but on the whole, the proposal comes across as a very naive one.
There are basically two ways that source code could be released as follows:
1) The source would be GPL'd - this means it would be made "open source" and released under a free licence (i.e. the GNU LGPL or a similar license) for anyone to use within the restrictions of that free licence. Not as fantastic as it may seem https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Category:Commercial_video_games_with_freely_available_source_code
2) CA/SEGA would release the source code under a NDA to a company that specialises in revamping old games (i.e. "good old games"), they would not just release it to a group of fans.
The first method is the preferable one as the game will be essentially "free". That would be a wonderful thing for the ailing MTW community. Aside from making the obvious needed fixes for Windows 7/Vista and newer graphics hardware, it would also allow ports to MAC OSX and UNIX/Linux platforms. This would be the preferred option, but I'd bet money that it will never happen.
The second method seems more realistic and I'm uncertain as to why it hasn't happened. An agreement has already been made (old news) with Feral Interactive and they are now supplying a ported MAC OSX version of RTW. So it looks like NDAs are on the table if the conditions are favourable. A similar agreement could easily be made with good old games to do STW and MTW, but either gog are not interested/have not approached CA or either party don't like what's on offer. I would wager that gog are not interested:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?108288-If-you-want-Medieval-Total-War-to-have-a-chance-at-Good-Old-Games.....-Vote-for-it!
http://www.gog.com/en/wanted/
System Shock 2 is very much in demand with 15090 votes. MTW is divided up as follows:
Medieval Total War: 12
Medieval Total War Gold: 264
Medieval Total War VI: 221
Total: 497
Bad? Well it's worse.....
Medieval II Kingdoms: 161
Medieval II: 190
Total: 351
Rome: 212
Rome BI: 164
Rome Alex: 159
Total: 535
So... apparently there is more interest in "good old games" selling RTW (a game that actually runs on modern hardware :facepalm:) than there is in MTW... a game that will not run properly for most of us...
But it's not all bad...
Shogun Total War: 458
Shogun Total War MI: 281
Shogun Total War WE: 344
Total: 1083
Still well into the blue zone though and 14000 or so votes behond SS2...
So realistically this is not going to happen. SS2 is a cult game that was never really surpassed, the fanbase is understandable, the company folded and the series ended there. MTW is a wholly different thing, it had a sequel and the series continued - newer titles were released and still are. This is probably part of the reason why there's so little support. It's a shame, but there it is.
edyzmedieval
04-16-2011, 14:16
Wow, talk about support for SS2.
Open source it will never be released, but perhaps we will have some chances with the group of dedicated modders who provided the superb work for MTW so far. Names such as VikingHorde, BKB, WesW, Axalon and Cegorach spring to mind. But it's all volunteer work, again, and lots of work.
Open source it will never be released
Yes, realistically it's never likely to be released under any FOSS licence.
but perhaps we will have some chances with the group of dedicated modders who provided the superb work for MTW so far. Names such as VikingHorde, BKB, WesW, Axalon and Cegorach spring to mind. But it's all volunteer work, again, and lots of work.
As I said before, SEGA/CA are unlikely to release the source under an NDA unless it's to a reputable software developer/publisher. They are highly unlikely to just release it to a group of fans. Of those you mention, two seem to be inactive and as far as we are aware, all are modders, not professional C/C++ software/game developers.
To release to a reputable software developer/publisher there would need to be demand and monetary incentives. i.e. a company like good old games would have to approach CA, not the other way around. As there is next to no demand for this game at good old games (when compared with i.e. system shock 2), then I'm afraid it's not going to happen.
PershsNhpios
04-17-2011, 01:14
Isn't it time brothers, that this was brought to the attention of the forum and staff at large?
Stickied in the Entrance Hall perhaps, if this is a serious effort on behalf of the Org?
At the moment, only a very small number of our brothers are involved, and the population outside this Hall is largely ignorant of the discussion - which means that this is not really an Org petition.
With enough names and enthusiasm, you could even start your own renovation company and approach CA as a business!
The source code for MTW is second in importance (to me) only to the Thief 2: The Metal Age source. I would do unspeakable things to obtain them.
The source code for MTW is second in importance (to me) only to the Thief 2: The Metal Age source. I would do unspeakable things to obtain them.
I see, are you a programmer?
Getting very offtopic here but - yes. AFAIK SS2 uses the same engine as Thief, with a lot of enhancements and Thief 2 was based on the SS2 engine (collectively the Dark Engine). This could mean that a source release involve all three due to the shared codebase and age. The Thief/2/SS2 (Looking Glass) communities needs to put all their effort behind a SS2 or Thief 2 source code release - rather than voting for it on good old games or otherwise dividing their efforts.
atheniandp
09-02-2012, 19:05
This would be a worthy petition.
But I don't think anybody on the Org, that still plays MTW, that could be bothered to put effort into anything, and that has the time and patience, even has the skills to work with coding for games so mechanically complex, such as Medieval: Total War's engine, is around and willing to edit some code just to make MTW that tiny fraction better.
I could be wrong however... Someone out there, that enjoys playing MTW, that has plenty of time and patience, that can be determined enough, and has the skill requirements for coding a game so mechanically complex might rock up here at the Org tomorrow... But what are the chances of that, eh?
:juggle:
Old but interesting thread. Anyone still interested in an open-source clone? I mean, how hard can it be, it's not rocket science.
I'm still hoping for a Steam/GoG update and release, although I would love to see the source if they did release it. I don't know much about DirectX/3D, but I would have a blast going through the gameplay mechanics code, there are lots of hardcoded items I would like to make configurable.
If Valve got the rights to fix it up, they might even produce a Linux version. That would be pure win.
I was thinking more in terms of a rewrite. I've been working on a battle engine for an iPad game. It's similar but a bit different to MTW. I just did an experiment writing a lua script that loaded one of the maps from MTW, and it turned out to be not that hard. There's no doubt that a complete rewrite is a lot of work, but on the other hand it's far from impossible. Here's a screen of the map:
9622
Looks pretty nice!
The IP rights issue might be a bit of a problem. But if my guess is correct, the game rights are in limbo between CA, Sega, and Activision and none of them would be sure if they could properly sue to stop a redo!
Any kind of source code (original or rewritten) would be great. I was always dreaming about MTW with full 3D modable graphics but unchanged mechanics and current risk type strategic map. Ok, maybe a small changes here and there (like cavalry charge mechanic, armor functionality, removing limits in provinces, units, events, etc.).
@Nikodil Could you tell anything more about your iPad game?
drone Interesting observation. Also, a decision to sue would primarily be an economic one. And besides, I don't see anything in the license agreement that prevents me form writing some lua scripts that access and display the media files from a valid install.
Stazi It's here https://itunes.apple.com/app/id442916628, I'm currently working on a map editor and other improvements.
[edit]
Got some basic tree rendering working.
Got some basic tree rendering working.
Nice. This game looks really promising. Are you going to add full campaign mode?
btw The only online store (http://uk.gamesplanet.com/buy-download-pc-games/Medieval-Total-War-Gold-510-43.html) I've found that sells MTW has listed SEGA as publisher. The funny thing is that MTW is still 2nd best selling strategy game in this store :yes:. It's a mystery to me why this store can sell MTW while others can't?
btw The only online store (http://uk.gamesplanet.com/buy-download-pc-games/Medieval-Total-War-Gold-510-43.html) I've found that sells MTW has listed SEGA as publisher. The funny thing is that MTW is still 2nd best selling strategy game in this store :yes:. It's a mystery to me why this store can sell MTW while others can't?
MTW Gold came out of the Eras release, right? Sega bought CA in 2005, Eras was 2006 if I remember correctly. Activision released MTW:Battle Collection in 2004, which might be the same thing as Gold, can't remember about the patch status. This is one reason why I think we are doomed regarding MTW source, I don't think Sega has the rights to it, my guess is Activision does. Sega probably just owns the rights to sell the game, and that's it. Probably the same with STW. So unless Activison and Sega (and maybe even EA from the STW days) agree on it, STW and MTW will not get source released or given to Valve or GoG for modernization.
As an aside, Sold Out Games (where I got my DVD version of STW Gold) is run by the Mastertronic guys which got absorbed into Sega decades ago. What an incestuous line of work...
Nice. This game looks really promising. Are you going to add full campaign mode?
There's still a lot to be done with the battle mode, and I'm focusing on that. But yes, campaign mode is further down the road.
btw, for anyone interested, the source is on GitHub (https://github.com/openwar/openwar).
Nice work, Nikodil! I look forward to seeing what else you come up with. ~:)
MTW Gold came out of the Eras release, right? Sega bought CA in 2005, Eras was 2006 if I remember correctly. Activision released MTW:Battle Collection in 2004, which might be the same thing as Gold, can't remember about the patch status. This is one reason why I think we are doomed regarding MTW source, I don't think Sega has the rights to it, my guess is Activision does. Sega probably just owns the rights to sell the game, and that's it. Probably the same with STW. So unless Activison and Sega (and maybe even EA from the STW days) agree on it, STW and MTW will not get source released or given to Valve or GoG for modernization.
Cripes, I didn't even think of that. The possibility that Sega owns only the right to sell STW & MTW/VI -- and not the source code itself -- never occurred to me.
You're right in that it would explain things, though. I've long wondered why neither game was available for sale on Steam (or even better, GOG) -- goodness knows both titles would sell well enough! -- but I think you've hit the nail on the head as to the reason.
edyzmedieval
09-29-2013, 14:27
It just hit me MTW has turned 11 years old, since it was released in September 2002. A great piece of work.
I reckon we'll get the source code sometime around September 2022...
AntiDamascus
09-30-2013, 21:57
I'm not even sure if they still use parts of it in the new engine.
Entirely possible that they do - you can't know for sure as it's proprietary software.
It's always been marketed as a rewrite from the ground up since Rome 1 - it definitely seems like it. I believe that Empire was another new engine...
I wouldn't hold your breath for a source release however. It's long been speculated that the code may not even be CA's or SEGA's to release. Both EA and Activision may be involved when it comes to Shogun/Medieval 1 source...
AntiDamascus
09-30-2013, 22:07
Did anyone actually contact CA to see what they said on the subject of source codes?
CA do visit these forums and ignored this thread for 5 years and 5 months...
I cannot really comment further on whether anyone contacted CA and whether or not CA responded...
/edit:
But anyway, they won't release the code so yes this is all hypothetical at best.
(which is not something I actually get off on being right about (so far)...)
We'll get the source code when someone buys a old thumbdrive at LongJohn's garage sale and makes a pleasant discovery. :yes:
CA has been fairly unresponsive when it comes to STW/MTW queries. I forwarded along a question from Stazi to Mr. Simpson regarding the legality of a mod technique, and got no response back.
edyzmedieval
10-04-2013, 00:26
One thing I do wish for is the fix for the newer video cards.
virus_found
10-30-2014, 16:12
Well, after releasing the whole unmodified (since the last release) source tree there will be a possibily to build the project without CD-protection, literally making it free to play for everyone. I don't know if MTW is still being sold anywhere, but maybe this is why CA is not interested in releasing the sources.
At least with the Steam Edition of MTW, most of the bugs have been ironed out I think. With video cards too.
edyzmedieval
03-25-2019, 00:27
To be fair, MTW Steam Edition is quite stable and works very well. Just finished an English GA campaign last week!
I don't know if MTW is still being sold anywhere, but maybe this is why CA is not interested in releasing the sources.
They are afraid of the competition probably.. rivals could pick up about the battle engine..
The last time i saw a copy of MTW in shops, was in 2010 in England, if memory serves..
it was in the "basket sale" section and i remember taking it out of the basket rushingly and proceeding to the till, as i sensed i wouldn't see this happening again..~:)
Can't remember anymore if it was for 5 or 10 GBP.. It was somewhere in downtown Leeds..~:)
They are afraid of the competition probably.. rivals could pick up about the battle engine..
It's possible, though I think it also a case of apathy. Releasing the source code isn't going to gain CA anything (and it might reveal secrets about the game engine/conflict with the distribution contracts of Activision/SEGA/Steam/whoever), so why bother?
Releasing the source code isn't going to gain CA anything (and it might reveal secrets about the game engine/conflict with the distribution contracts of Activision/SEGA/Steam/whoever), so why bother?
Indeed, they have potentially things to lose and nothing to gain.
edyzmedieval
04-07-2019, 23:36
Correct - now that it's been released for Steam, no reason to do so. They fixed the bugs so that's fine!
bunt0025
11-14-2019, 19:00
My dog chewed up my installation CD and I'm too dumb to try to create a replacement. So when this old computer gets it up then I'll just have to pick up golf or something.
My dog chewed up my installation CD and I'm too dumb to try to create a replacement. So when this old computer gets it up then I'll just have to pick up golf or something.
Just get an old one from the flea market / Amazon. You will find plenty still available.
Or just use Steam!
NikolaTheGreat
06-13-2020, 01:21
I red all messages in this thread starting from the first... now that is 2020 they don't get almost any profits by MTW1, considering many people reviewed bad on steam and refunded game for glitches and problems with newer computers CA had a bad reputation in porting old games to steam and newer computers.
So, I have an idea... Considering CA or SEGA not accept free source code giving because they would accept to give the engine only in 1 case: make a remake of the game with their source code improving it fixing hardcodding things with newer graphics, diplomacy, sieges, politics, fixed bugs, new factions, units (remove hardcodding shit too) etc. but keep same risk style system and movement only with ehanced cooler map so we can earn a lot of money from all the veterans which would be excited to play a HD remake and divide profits with CA and SEGA so they have only to earn for profits I will give 50 percent of profits of sales to them so they should accept they should accept because actually MTW is going bad with steam sales due to problems and people refunding it either... Find a way to convince them maybe create a small modder developers team and ask rights paying first for permission and source code of engine... first we need to impress they with a good MTW2 or Attila or whethewer other total war game mod so we can have a good reputation with CA and they could sell the rights easier? There's a possibility for it?
NikolaTheGreat
06-13-2020, 01:23
Paying for rights should be reasonable because then they take half of profits either
NikolaTheGreat
06-13-2020, 04:26
So with mods on pathreon earn money and with that after ask CA rights for source code of MTW and if they ask money pay when we will get the money in exchange of the engine and promising them making a remake of the game and giving them 50 percent of profits by sales... tons of people will buy a modern graphics, diplomacy and politics MTW with more factions and units and features but keeping the simple risk style map... I think considering the game is abbandonware and paying for the engine and the rights they could accept at this stage considering we give them money and promise half of profits in their hands? They have a lot to gain or no?
With the release of Cyberpunk 2077 and the whole controversy that followed it, because it was such a hyped game and so buggy, and with the talk of lawsuits being sent CDPR's way, I think in the future we might not see any source codes released AT ALL.
Some companies did release source codes but this will be downright unheard of in the future. Legal risks. Says it all.
Since the game has been released on Steam, they are still making a profit - so making the game free at this point is probably not in their best interest if they can sell it for 2-3 EUR / USD on Steam.
MTW is turning I believe 20 years next year. That's quite some time.
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