Highlanders and Gallowglasses (SP)

[Gringoleader]

Are these folks any good?

I use highlanders a fair bit because I think they are quiet cool, they are pisseasy to build and they eat archers for lunch. However I find they suffer immensely from pitiful armour and pretty wonky morale. Is it worth upgrading their armour and weapons or are they doomed to be pants in the 12th century and beyond?

Now Gallowglasses I have little experience with. I am natuarally wary of shock troops, so when I invade Ireland I tend to shoot the little buggers, flank them, then rout them with cavalry charges.
How do these lads compare with Highlanders? Are they as fast? Do they run away like the Scots or do they possess Spirito de Keano?

[TheViking]

if u conquer Ireland start producing the Kerns. Theres nothing they cant do.

i.e:
* their javelins kill all unit even the high era units. Theres no armour they cant penetrate.
* If ur army have a lack of cavs u can use the Kerns to run after the slow melee units.
* If they run out of amu they make perfect flankers.
* They stand a little longer against cavs then for expamle archers.

I use them alot even into the bitter end.

Back to topic:
In my opinion the highlanders and Gallowglasses are only "good" to train for the first 25 yrs maximum. then they aint that good anymore. cant even kill spearunits if u dont have 2 highlanders or 2 gallowglasses.

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[favedave]

gallow and highlanders are good for garrison troops.

Put them in provinces you don't want the computer to attack and it'll inhibit the computer from going after it.

They are inexpensive to build and have lower upkeep than peasants! But if there'a peasant rebellion, then the gallows and highlanders can kick their ass.

So rather than building spear or peasants to garrison, use the English and Scottish troops.

[Sword_Monkey]

Fully armored Gallowglasses make fine "fire and forget" troops. I like cranking them out and sending at least two units in on any invasion. I keep them at the flanks of a line of sergeants/billmen/billmen. Once engaged with the enemy and the fighting is getting rough and dirty I send the Gallowglasses in on the flanks. Over half of them will die but they do wanders for chewing up and demoralising the enemy. They're so cheap, I'll just build more http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

As for whoever said they can't take spearmen, well, yes - from the front. While his spears are tied up with your spear units, send the Gallowglasses in on the flank, they'll chew the unit up by 25% just on the initial charge.

[Spino]

Quote As for whoever said they can't take spearmen, well, yes - from the front. While his spears are tied up with your spear units, send the Gallowglasses in on the flank, they'll chew the unit up by 25% just on the initial charge.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

You may find it interesting to know that Gallowglasses have the HIGHEST Charge Bonus of any foot unit in the game, beating out Nizari and Muwahid Foot Soldiers and putting them in the same shock class as the best heavy cavalry! Oddly enough Woodsmen also sport the same Charge Bonus as Gallowglasses but unlike Ireland's finest they're worthless after the initial charge. Add to the fact that Gallowglasses wield armor piercing weapons and you have the perfect ambush/flanking infantry unit. Give them some armor and weapon upgrades and they become even more formidable.

Gallowglasses are far from being the best infantry units in the game but they're certainly one the best specialized units in the game.

[Gringoleader]

Anybody know their morale stat off the top of their head?

[Coucy]

Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
Anybody know their morale stat off the top of their head?[/QUOTE]


Unmodified, Morale 0.

Coucy

[TheViking]

Quote As for whoever said they can't take spearmen, well, yes - from the front. While his spears are tied up with your spear units, send the Gallowglasses in on the flank, they'll chew the unit up by 25% just on the initial charge.[/QUOTE]

As I said:
U need 2 of them to kill the spears 1 to hold them and 1 to flank or do a rare attack.

Do u actually have a saved reply where u c the GG killing 25% of the unit. If not i cant belive u. I never cn any unit kill so many in a charge, exept if its a hashishin or naptha throwers that get charge from a heavy cav.

And even if they r cheaper it doesnt matter in the end even if u keep building them.

example:
U buy 5 GG and get into battle. they do their job but 3 units get smashed and 2 spear units from the enemy.

3 turns later u have 5 GG again but the enemy have 6 spears unit this time.

Do u c what i mean.

even if u kill all the spear units. 10 yrs later the enemy can build feudal spears. then ur GG wont do any good.

So maximum for 25yrs the GG and highlanders are usefull

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[Sainika]

Let's see...One unit of highland clansmen costs 100 fl. (default size), gg - 175 fl. For this price you get excellent attack, bonus vs armoured troops, irresistible charge. OK. Now compare their price and characteristics with chiv. maa, which cost 275 fl. Two units of clansmen or gg have more possibilities for manoevre, for flanking attacks etc. They tire up more slowly in desert, they walk faster - AND ALL THIS FOR ALMOST THE SAME OR EVEN LESS PRICE! So comparing in terms "price - quality" gg and highlanders are extraordinary units. And with armour upgrades they rule the world http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Hakonarson]

Quote Originally posted by TheViking:
[As I said:
U need 2 of them to kill the spears 1 to hold them and 1 to flank or do a rare attack.
And even if they r cheaper it doesnt matter in the end even if u keep building them.

example:
U buy 5 GG and get into battle. they do their job but 3 units get smashed and 2 spear units from the enemy.

3 turns later u have 5 GG again but the enemy have 6 spears unit this time.

Do u c what i mean.[/QUOTE]

Dunno about him but all I see is a highly selective argument set up to prove your point, relying upon some unlikely combinations and ignoring important consequences.

For example why only 2 spear units destroyed? That's about a 1:1 kill ratio against 3 units of Hlndrs or GG - What happened to the pursuit?????

Jeez - even infantry get to butcher their opponents for a few seconds when they turn and run.

Quote even if u kill all the spear units. 10 yrs later the enemy can build feudal spears. then ur GG wont do any good.

So maximum for 25yrs the GG and highlanders are usefull

[/QUOTE]

Um, well perhaps he doesn't have the tech to build Feudal spears, or maybe when he does your GG/Highlanders have armour upgrades.....and of course they're getting lots of valour from busting up lots of spear units in the meantime!! lol

And maybe you just conquered his most important province - or maybe you just defeated his invasion of your home province....maybe you just killed his king, or saved your own one.....perhaps you just destroyed one of the buildings he needs to get up to Feudal Sgts.....

So next time you ant to do some sort of comparison please consider a bit more than the simple stuff.

[Sainika]

I agree with Hakonarson. Actually in my battles one unit of gg easily kills one unit of spearmen. As for feud. srgnts the situation is more complex but as I say always there is a possibility to flank enemy. It is not very wise to send gg or scots for the frontal assault of feuds or chiv. srgnts - for this purpose there must be another infantry - like same feuds or urbans. Though against simple spearmen, urban militia, militia sergeants, muwahids and other light infantry, gg and scots may be very useful even in frontal fight.

[Sword_Monkey]

Exactly. I'm still using them quite effectively at a point in the game where Feudal Sergeants are common. They never enter the fighting until after things are under way, then I hit the enemy's flanks, and watch'em go.

For what they cost, it really isn't an issue to me whether I have to replace them or not. Between that charge and their speed chasing routers I'll happily be using them for the first 100+ years of any game they're available. Sure, once it gets to around 1200 or so I'm building more FMAA and starting to crank out the first CMAA but that's a heck of a lot longer than the 25 years.

Given the AI's propensity to still be playing with Spearmen come endgame, you could probably still be getting your money's worth out of them the whole game even if all you ever used them for was spearmen, peasants, and chasing routers.

[Kraxis]

Both GGs and Highlanders are great fun to play with... they are basically the reincarnation of the good old No-Dachi we all loved. The GGs actually fight much like the No-Dachi as well.

Don't treat these guys as first liners, that is what you have your spears for. Flank with them and see the enemy fall apart, charge head on and see your GGs fall apart.
Do you ever charge your cavalry head onto spears??? No of course you don't, the same is true here. GGs in Wedge and charging into the flank of spears can run very far killing and maiming.
One of my better GGs actually run about half the lenght of a Feudal Sergeants unit during the charge. You should have seen the kill ratio jump, it went from almost equal to 3/4 green... Naturally the Sergeants ran, but it cost me 12 GGs to that.
After the charge it doesn't pay to keep them in Wedge anymore, put them back into Close.

If GGs and Highlanders were so bad, then there would be no point in the Muslims having Ghazi or Abbysinian Guards, and I have seen Ghazi in MP chew up knights (ok in was in a wood and they were surprised).

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
Are these folks any good?

I use highlanders a fair bit because I think they are quiet cool, they are pisseasy to build and they eat archers for lunch. However I find they suffer immensely from pitiful armour and pretty wonky morale. Is it worth upgrading their armour and weapons or are they doomed to be pants in the 12th century and beyond?
[/QUOTE]

If you don't want to spend all the cash to fully upgrade ireland/scotland, you could try retraining them in a fully built sector to give them better armor and morale (reliquery and cathedral together grant +5 morale).

Also, I like them in the desert where their lack of armor enables them to retain their stamina longer.

Check out this thread (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/002853.html) for some background info on the Gallowglass.

bif


[This message has been edited by AgentBif (edited 10-18-2002).]

[Spino]

Quote If you don't want to spend all the cash to fully upgrade ireland/scotland, you could try retraining them in a fully built sector to give them better armor and morale (reliquery and cathedral together grant +5 morale).[/QUOTE]

I thought you can only upgrade or retrain speciality units in the provinces that can build them. Is there an exception to this I don't know about? Can you upgrade a Highland and/or Gallowglass unit in another province as long as the units are at full strength?

[Arcsim]

Gallows are almost identical to Ghazi, but they have high defense, slightly higher charge, and much less honor.

[insolent1]

Gallowglasses are the best shock infantry in the game combined with halberdiers they are unstoppable. They suffer from bad morale but with a bit of valour a good general & a chruch & monastery in Ireland they have good morale. I have never seen them route.
TheViking
First off its impossible to get gallowglasses in teh first 25 years of an early camapign as you have to build ships to get to Ireland. This takes a long time even if you do build up wessex as your main ship production province.
If you have ever used gallowglasses properly you will have seen the charge damage that they do I have seen even the mighty AUM take nearly 17 deaths from the inital impact of the charge & I do have a replay somewhere of a gallowglass charge & it was a frontal charge & lets just say there wasn't much left of the enemy unit after the first 5 seconds of melee.
I would just like to point out that you are missing out on the best shock infantry in the game as they are cheap & deadly. Build an armoury & that will give them some defence aswell. The gallowglasses are one of the most durable(you can use them in the 1100's or the 1300's) units in the game apart from light cav. BTW they have armour piercing which means they are very effective in the high & late periods.
BTW i'm Irish & I know Irish history well the gallowglasses are not of Irish origin but they where one of the most feared combatants of their time and I must say that the game portrays them quite well its a pity the hobilars aren't an Irish only unit as these where completely Irish

[TheViking]

All who disagree with me on the GG and hihglanders. The only thing i can say is that we have different experiences, and i rather build a more expensive unit even a much more expensive unit that i know will hold for more then a battle somtimes only half a battle.

The times i have Ireland I produce Kerns they are much better and they do what they r suppose to do.

I agree with u all that the GG have a damn good charge but after the charge they die I compare them with the Ghazis maybe they are a little better then the Ghazis.

Theres a swedish saying that i could use here, and it goes like this:
The taste is like a butt, its devided.

Hope the translation is correct

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by TheViking:
Theres a swedish saying that i could use here, and it goes like this:
The taste is like a butt, its devided.

Hope the translation is correct

[/QUOTE]

Try writing it in Swedish... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Yes, an expensive unit might last longer, but as said they are expensive and often they don't kill as fast. Worse yet they are often heavy in Armour and thus get tired in the desert fast, where the Highlanders and GGs don't.
Also, the cheap GGs and Highlanders can give you a nice boost to reinforcements. Reinforcements you wouldn't have if you went for the expensive units (unless you sit on the world or good trade).

But I agree Kerns are simply great. They are fast and have javelins that cause heavy casualties to heavy units.
I had a unit if them kill almost 40 knights with their javelins... and several times many of other types.
Their fast speed makes them great persuers and they have a not too bad melee for their cost.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[TheViking]

I never depend on reinforcement, cuz if the main army starts to run they use to run thru the reinforce and make them rout too. And I stay out of the desert if im not a muslim faction.

And if i have to go into the desert ive come so far in the game so i can build other better no-armour units.

The Swedish saying in swedish:
Smaken är som baken, den är delad.

What it means is that I like some units that others dont like and others like units that i dont like.

And ppl who have posted on this thread probably gave their opinion on GG and highlanders. And Gringoleader asked if they were any good and most ppl thout so. So i thout i could give him my opinion too, so he have some critisicm (or how its spelled) and not only good things. Cuz there is not only good things with GG and highlanders, if there were they should b a superunit.

hope u understand what i want to say http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I also used them alot when i first started to play this game but when they always kept on dying i stopped using them, cuz they didnt fit into my tactics and thats why i think they r bad pluz they do die fast u cant deny that. and it take long time b4 u got some good armour upgrades on them.

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[This message has been edited by TheViking (edited 10-21-2002).]

[xtianity]

I lost Ireland to the Alomhads (haven't been able to reclaim it because the alomhad naval reserves seem infinite even though they only have two provinces after 100 years of consistent war).
However my Scottish province has onyl ever been lost once, it is garrisoned by 3 troops of longbowmen and 12 troops of highland clans men without any addded bonuses. I always auto the invasions there because after the first two from the HRE where they outnumbered and had huge forces of cavalry etc I thoguht Id have no chance.
However both autos won, and by huge amounts.

Also if you play the single battles as William Wallace there is one where you control an army of peasants, spearmen and highland clansmen, on normal mode its almost impossible to lose becuase the charge anhilates cavlary.

Just my two cents