View Full Version : Which country is the most nationalistic?
Which country do you think is the most nationalistic?
Now, this topic may strike the hearts of some of us, but lets please keep it civil. I am currently doing a paper on nationalism in the world and how it effects countries, and would like to hear some of your opinions.
-SwedishFish
FactionHeir
05-26-2008, 19:47
This is a *hidden* multiple choice poll? That's not going to be very helpful :tongue2:
I'd say its either China, USA or Russia. Actually I'd say they are quite tied in terms of veracity in defending their nation from attacks made by word and force.
I'm not including war fatigue in that statement, as even the most nationalistic people will grow tired of constant or losing wars.
discovery1
05-26-2008, 19:52
Poland, easily.
Craterus
05-26-2008, 19:57
I think nationalism is stupid under most, if not all, circumstances. Especially when a nation hasn't achieved anything particularly incredible during it's history.
Americans tend to be very big on their loaded words and phrases 'freedom', 'independence', 'God Bless America', all the others and their nationalism tends to be just plain annoying.
But I'd also say Poland is pretty nationalistic, way out of proportion with the relatively small part it has played so far in history.
woad&fangs
05-26-2008, 19:59
I'm surprised that Greece isn't an option.
Marshal Murat
05-26-2008, 20:10
Most nationalistic? Difficult question.
I'm going to say China. From Tibet to Taiwan, you get an almost unified nationalist feeling from those posting online. While I have never interviewed individual Chinese nationalists, it does provide a good ground for nationalistic tendencies. With the Olympics and attacks on Tibet policies, the 'Olympic flame' and all, it's always an outcry against the Western policies and hypocrisy. Steven Spielberg withdrawing about Darfur? Within minutes, rage about his 'politicization' of the Olympic Games.
I can understand a very 'U.S' nationalist feeling, but it's not as...united...as China's seems to be.
cegorach
05-26-2008, 20:22
China and Russia all things considering.
Especially recently. Especially with China.
The USA is a model patriotic state, but with much megalomania - it is hardly suprising.
Germany ? Hard to tell, but in recent years there clearly are such traits reemerging.
Britain... Certainly I have never met so many noisy nationalists from any other country, but it might be only because they are easy to spot and understand (language).
Actually I was never attacked without a reason so many times by anyone else than a British - to some people no criticism is allowed when addressing the UK. 'Lost empire' complex, perhaps ?
Poland ? Nope. Though just one person can act like a madman and in the result he will look like a crowd of people.
Besides I believe the poster of the poll has some personal issues here with some people so the choice in the poll is hardly justified.:juggle2:
"Certainly I have never met so many noisy nationalists from any other country, but it might be only because they are easy to spot and understand "
Really? I have not heard many nationalists from the UK. I thought the whole "Empire under the Sun" thing died out with the Second World War.
Not to sound like a jerk though, I have heard (not just from here, btw) some noisy nationalists form other nationalities far worse than I have heard from Britain.
"Poland ? Nope. Though just one person can act like a madman and in the result he will look like a crowd of people."
Err.....I always thought that was Britain's case as well......
Marshal Murat
05-26-2008, 20:32
Interesting that you should say something about the British. It reminds me of a short story I read about the result of Britain's empire. A girl in Jamaica was raised to believe in Britain and it's special allure. All these great things about Britain. When she gets there, she realizes that it's not as great as she thought. All the people were snobby and very nationalistic.
It's probably because they have so many different people claiming to be 'British', they have to defend their special place even more?
seireikhaan
05-26-2008, 20:52
Of the options, I voted for USA, but that's mostly out of inexperience with the general attitudes of most of the countries listed. However, I would vote for the whole Balkans area as a whole as being far more nationalist than the U.S.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
05-26-2008, 20:58
It's certainly not Germany, simply because of the guilt associated with that. I, however, am a nationalist (not an extreme one, more of a patriot I guess), and proud to say it.
I'd say Russia or the USA would be the most nationalist.
Funny how so many see nationalism as a bad thing, go hate your granny makes just as much sense to me.
KukriKhan
05-26-2008, 21:02
Funny how so many see nationalism as a bad thing, go hate your granny makes just as much sense to me.
He has a point. What is: "nationalistic", exactly?
I am sorry to hear you have had such bad experiences with British nationalists, cegorach. I have always imagined the UK to be relatively un-nationalistic, mostly because I personally regard our imperial history and "glorious achievements" as something to be ashamed rather than proud of. It is unsettling to hear that you have had the opposite experience; certainly it is disturbing to me that anyone could regard this country as being above criticism, we have plenty worth criticizing in my opinion.
I can only hope that the experiences you have had are indeed of a few noisy idiots, rather than being representative. We certainly are noisy - probably because we're always drunk ~:cheers:
Speaking purely from my own uninformed prejudices, I would have to say I regard the USA as the most nationalistic country, but that is probably just because I have had more contact with Americans than with the other nationalities mentioned. Also I suspect it is in large part due to the amount of criticism the US tends to attract from other countries these days - in my experience the thing which makes people the most nationalistic is when they feel their country is being attacked.
Regarding China, I do have to wonder whether we can really form a clear opinion purely from what people write on the internet - surely, for a Chinese person to write something on the internet opposing the occupation of Tibet would be a pretty risky thing to do, given the restrictions on free speech in China?
And I would certainly say nationalism can be a very bad thing, if it makes you blind to any criticism of your country, or believe that your country is always right. Indeed, I would pose the opposite question: Why exactly is nationalism a good thing?
cegorach
05-26-2008, 21:12
"Certainly I have never met so many noisy nationalists from any other country, but it might be only because they are easy to spot and understand "
Really? I have not heard many nationalists from the UK. I thought the whole "Empire under the Sun" thing died out with the Second World War.
I did and I constantly do.
It is enough to question the leadership abilities of people like Duke Wellington - it is only a question of time before someone shows up screaming.
I never met so many people who are not able to accept criticism.
It is either total ignorance/ lack of interest or rabid defence of everything or at least something seen as very important.
Of course most of the British simply do not care, but despite this and the wonderful ability to laugh from themselves it is so often true that the auto-ironic attitude is rather shallow.
A pose, a fashion or even more amazingly a funding ground for plainly nationalistic ranting i.e. 'we are so wonderful that we can laugh from ourselves, noone else can - so we are the greatest'.
It is also shallow because from my experience the Americans (or the Poles - don't know about Germans, certainly NOT the Chinese or the Russian, though) are much more likely to admit a failure of their government in the past or presence than the British who seem to conceal their stubborn defence under the mask of irony.
As if it was - 'fine, I can tell jokes, or even pretend to be stupid, but you will not tell me that my country...'
Laughing from yourself is great, but nationalism appears when you are not likely to admit your sins, failures, mistakes, crimes and from my experience it is actually the case with the British.
True it is mostly due to ignorance - abyssmal historical knowledge and lack of interest in world affairs - but that is hardly an excuse.
Especially on governmental level and here it looks not very far away from Russia which doesn't even know the term self criticism.
Hardly a good thing.
So again.
Pure nationalism - China and to lesser extend Russia.
Hidden nationalism, but also ignorance and the ability to laugh from themselves - the British.
Patriotism with megalomania and hints of nationalism - the USA.
Patriotism and rarer noisy nationalism mixed with heavy self-criticism, even inferiority complex and ability to laugh from themselves (but usually not receiving such treatmen from others well - historical reasons) - Poland.
Have no idea - Germany.
Missing ?
France, Hungary, Greece to name just a couple.
Why exactly is nationalism a good thing?
Why is family, easy to put culture right there.
cegorach
05-26-2008, 21:20
Nationalism or patriotism ?
There is a difference - a slight one in the beginning, but it is the difference what matters in the end - whole nations were exterminated by nationalists who considered themselves patriots they never were.
Chicken soup or emergency call is more like it :inquisitive:
Craterus
05-26-2008, 21:38
Patriotism and rarer noisy nationalism mixed with heavy self-criticism, even inferiority complex and ability to laugh from themselves (but usually not receiving such treatmen from others well - historical reasons) - Poland.
Compared with your other summaries, that doesn't seem biased at all... ~:rolleyes:
Ah well, the poll has spoken.
Justiciar
05-26-2008, 21:45
Which? Country? Nationalistsic? Coleslaw?
None. I'd say China, simply because it's more open than the rest. Though that's personal bias rather than hard fact. Tbh there isn't a state under the sun that doesn't have some raving lunatic loudly proclaiming their superiority, or how thoroughly crap those guys next door are.
To say that one is more so than the others seems plain retarded to me.
PanzerJaeger
05-26-2008, 21:52
Americans tend to be very big on their loaded words and phrases 'freedom', 'independence', 'God Bless America', all the others and their nationalism tends to be just plain annoying.
How are ideas such as freedom and independence nationalistic? Also, many people unfamiliar with the US seem to think "God Bless America" actually means "God Bless America to the exclusion of all others" - which it certainly doesnt.
America is a very patriotic country. There's a difference.
Germany is the anti-nationalist, and China is the most overtly nationalist on the list, with government sponsored demonstrations proclaiming the greatness of the nation mandatory.
Tribesman
05-26-2008, 21:55
North Korea .
Craterus
05-26-2008, 22:03
How are ideas such as freedom and independence nationalistic? Also, many people unfamiliar with the US seem to think "God Bless America" actually means "God Bless America to the exclusion of all others" - which it certainly doesnt.
The ideas aren't in themselves. When they're used so heavily to sing the praises of America by Americans, they are. 'Democracy', there's another one. And hey, thank God America can spread war in the name of democracy. Oh, add 'liberty' to the list.
I don't think that's what that phrase means. However, its usage just seems to do things to Americans. I swear the way to win a presidential election is to use these specific words and that phrase as much as possible in your speeches. It completely appeals to the patriotic/nationalistic side of the entire nation. That kinda proves my point, I think.
Marshal Murat
05-26-2008, 22:05
North Korea clearly means that China is just as nationalistic. They have 3 basic criteria
Communist (ish)
Has a neighbor that split away in the mid-20th century that is supported by the United States
Asian
This clearly means that any North Korean nationalism is easily transfered to China.
Ipso-Facto, China is the most nationalistic because it encompasses not only China, but North Korea as well.
cegorach
05-26-2008, 22:06
Compared with your other summaries, that doesn't seem biased at all... ~:rolleyes:
Ah well, the poll has spoken.
Certainly I cannot claim I am not biased despite your sarcasm.
Since every opinion is based on experience and knowledge and the fullest knowledge I have about Poland (for obvious reasons).
The rest is obviously covered worse, but sufficiently to present an opinon - thanks to knwoledge and personal experience (the second would we worset with China, but I can claim suffiecient knowledge to compensate).
On the other hand I have never had any problems with German nationalism, but my knowledge is not sufficient to say something I could support in a discussion.
I am not used to make statements which I feel are not correct and which I cannot support with sufficient knowledge or personal experience.
Understood ?
HoreTore
05-26-2008, 22:17
Poland, easily.
Poland indeedy.
Geoffrey S
05-26-2008, 22:27
I'm surprised at the votes for China. Although that may apply for parts of the country, its sheer size and range of people inhabiting it means it isn't nationalism binding it together - similar to the USSR in its heyday, in that it couldn't afford to promote too overt a Russian sense of nationalism and when it did, increasingly alienated its constituent parts.
I'd apply similar reasons to the USA. Large, with plenty of differences between states, even inside cities. In general it doesn't seem to be nationalism or patriotism, but a common belief in a set of ideals. Central government tries to tie those ideals to itself, but that is not the spirit with which the nation was founded, nor that which prevails today.
Funny how so many see nationalism as a bad thing, go hate your granny makes just as much sense to me.
It's irrational and unfounded. Liking your family members is of course not always the best course either. For an extreme example; take Fritzl.
He has a point. What is: "nationalistic", exactly?
My take on it is that ethnic/national groupings view their culture, traditions & society as close to utopia and that changes thus for the most part are negative.
People from other cultures might live like they do and have fun with that; but they are clearly missing out on something. If something works better in another country, it must have drawbacks in some other way and should not be implemented if it leads to too great changes.
CountArach
05-26-2008, 22:42
:poland: :poland: :poland:
POLAND
:poland: :poland: :poland:
rotorgun
05-26-2008, 22:55
I chose the United States, the country I am from, because I think that it is currently the most nationalistic as a political entity. This is quite different from China, which is more of a developing nationalism opposed to its current government abuses, and Russian nationalism which is economically motivated.
The US is engaged in a much more jingoistic, or patriotic type of nationalism reminiscent of its former imperialistic days. It reminds me of the Rudyard Kipling Poem The White Mans' Burden.
The White Man's Burden
Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.
Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.
Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to naught.
Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.
Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night
Please don't get me wrong, I love my country just as much as anyone else does. I just feel that we can be rather annoying at times in telling the rest of the world how we think they must live.
cegorach
05-26-2008, 22:57
I'm surprised at the votes for China. Although that may apply for parts of the country, its sheer size and range of people inhabiting it means it isn't nationalism binding it together - similar to the USSR in its heyday, in that it couldn't afford to promote too overt a Russian sense of nationalism and when it did, increasingly alienated its constituent parts.
But it does. It is like the Soviet Union close to its end - the comunist ideology and the Party itself have nothing else to appeal to - the ideology is dead, religion doesn't exist so only nationalism is left.
It will get more and more ugly, especially with the new generation which sees China as if not better certainly nothing worse than any other state in the world.
They are cerain it is not they who should be lectured, it is not them who should accept criticism and it is not anyone else's right to do so because if not everyone is guilty, at least noone can claim any form of a moral highground.
The young and angry can be a terrible danger - we seen that with Mao's cultural revolution and we see it now, not so violent, but pretty scary anyway.
cegorach
05-26-2008, 23:12
Here is what I am talking about.
China's next-generation nationalists
from
LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-kurlantzik6-2008may06,0,3394254.story
They're educated, richer and more aggressive toward the West.
By Joshua Kurlantzick
May 6, 2008
As human rights protesters dogged the Beijing Olympics' torch relay around the world, as supporters of Tibet condemned the violent crackdown in Lhasa, and as Darfur activists demanded change in China's Sudan policy, Chinese young people worked themselves into a different form of righteous anger. In online forums and chat rooms, they blasted Beijing's leaders for not being tougher in Tibet. They agitated for boycotts against Western businesses based in nations that object to Beijing's policies, and they directed venomous fury against anyone critical of China.
The anger has even spread to American college campuses. In April, Chinese students at USC blasted a visiting Tibetan monk with angry questions about Tibet's alleged history of slavery and other controversial topics. When the monk tried to respond, the students chanted, "Stop lying! Stop lying!"
At the University of Washington, hundreds protested outside during a speech by the Dalai Lama, chanting, "Dalai, your smiles charm, your actions harm." When one Chinese student at Duke University tried to mediate between pro-China and pro-Tibet protesters, her photo, labeled "traitor," was posted on the Internet, and her contact information and her parents' address in China were listed for all to see.
The explosion of nationalist sentiment, especially among young people, might seem shocking, but it's been simmering for a long time. In fact, Beijing's leadership, for all its problems, may be less hard-line than China's youth, the country's future. If China ever were to become a truly free political system, it might actually become more, not less, aggressive.
China's youth nationalism tends to explode over sparks like the Tibet unrest. It burst into violent anti-American protests after NATO's accidental bombing of China's embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, in 1999. (Most young Chinese I've met don't believe that the bombing was an accident.) Even after 9/11, a time when the governments of China and the United States were building a closer relationship, some young Chinese welcomed America's pain. "When the planes crashed into the World Trade Center, I really felt very delighted," one student told Chinese pollsters.
Youth nationalism exploded again into anti-Japan riots across China in 2005, after the release of Japanese textbooks deemed offensive in China for their apparent whitewashing of World War II atrocities. During the riots, I was working in Lanzhou, a gritty, medium-sized city in industrial central China. Day after day, young Chinese marched through Lanzhou and looked for shops selling Japanese goods to smash up -- though, of course, these stores were owned by local Chinese merchants.
Hardly uneducated know-nothings, young nationalists tend to be middle-class urbanites. Far more than rural Chinese, who remain mired in poverty, these urbanites have benefited enormously from the country's three decades of economic growth. They also have begun traveling and working abroad. They can see that Shanghai and Beijing are catching up to Western cities, that Chinese multinationals can compete with the West, and they've lost their awe of Western power.
Many middle-aged Chinese intellectuals are astounded by the differences between them and their younger peers. Academics I know, members of the Tiananmen generation, are shocked by some students' disdain for foreigners and, often, disinterest in liberal concepts such as democratization. University students now tend to prefer business-oriented majors to liberal arts-oriented subjects such as political science. The young Chinese interviewed for a story last fall in Time magazine on the country's "Me Generation" barely discussed democracy or political change in their daily lives.
Beijing has long encouraged nationalism. Over the last decade, the government has introduced new school textbooks that focus on past victimization of China by outside powers. The state media, such as the People's Daily, which hosts one of the most strongly nationalist Web forums, also highlight China's perceived mistreatment at the hands of the United States and other powers.
In recent years, too, the Communist Party has opened its membership and perks to young urbanites, cementing the belief that their interests lie with the regime, not with political change -- and that democracy might lead to unrest and instability. According to Minxin Pei of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, "The party showers the urban intelligentsia, professionals and private entrepreneurs with economic perks, professional honors and political access." In the 1980s, by contrast, these types of professionals and academics were at the forefront of Tiananmen protests.
The state media also increasingly highlight the problems of rural China -- China now has income inequality on par with many Latin American nations -- suggesting to urbanites the economic and political catastrophe that might befall them if these rural peasants swamped wealthy cities.
Now, though, according to Chinese officials, it appears that the Chinese government actually wants to tamp down nationalism. Some officials privately worry that nationalist protests, even ones targeting other countries, ultimately will transform into unrest against Beijing, like previous outbursts of patriotism in China before communist rule in 1949, which eventually turned into nationwide convulsions.
In 2005, Beijing initially fed the anti-Japan feelings with public statements. Then Beijing -- which depends on Tokyo as a crucial trading partner and source of aid -- tried to tamp down tensions by keeping much of the protest details out of the state media. Ultimately, though, Beijing had to roll out riot-control police in large cities. Similarly, after a 2001 collision between American and Chinese military planes that killed the Chinese pilot, Beijing struggled to keep street protests from erupting into riots.
In the long run, this explosive nationalism calls into question what kind of democracy China could be. Many Chinese academics, for example, believe that, at least in the early going, a freer China might become a more dangerous China. Able to truly express their opinions, young Chinese would be able to put intense pressure on a freer government to adopt a hard line against the West -- even, perhaps, to invade Taiwan. By contrast, the current Chinese regime has launched broad informal contacts with Taiwan's new rulers, including an April meeting between Chinese President Hu Jintao and incoming Taiwanese Vice President Vincent Siew -- contacts denounced by many bloggers. One day, Hu may find even he can't defend himself before a mob of angry Chinese students.
Joshua Kurlantzick is an adjunct fellow at the Pacific Council on International Policy and the author of "Charm Offensive: How China's Soft Power Is Transforming the World." He has reported on Asia for the last decade.
CountArach
05-26-2008, 23:18
:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:
VOTE POLAND
:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:
Spartakus
05-26-2008, 23:19
Ok, I voted China but I don't really mean it. I just want to defend the integrity of Poland.
Poland forever! :bounce:
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2008, 00:12
Im going for USA its probably because im more exposed to everything american so im more exposed to american patriotism.
PanzerJaeger
05-27-2008, 04:11
The ideas aren't in themselves. When they're used so heavily to sing the praises of America by Americans, they are. 'Democracy', there's another one. And hey, thank God America can spread war in the name of democracy.
Yes, of course America is the evil warmonger, but how exactly do the collective beliefs in democracy, independence, liberty, etc translate into nationalism?
However, its usage just seems to do things to Americans. I swear the way to win a presidential election is to use these specific words and that phrase as much as possible in your speeches. It completely appeals to the patriotic/nationalistic side of the entire nation. That kinda proves my point, I think.
You're putting a lot of stock in to a simple tradition. I do not think saying "God Bless America" has ever won an election, so your point is yet to be proven.
Mixing patriotism and nationalism is the problem.
Patriotism comes from the bottom, while nationalism comes from the top.
Im going for USA its probably because im more exposed to everything american so im more exposed to american patriotism.
Thats not nationalism. Compared to China, the US government does very little to impose or even promote a belief national superiority.
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2008, 04:35
I see patriotism and nationalism as very similar.
That's because they're basically the same thing. Not sure what the difference is.
cegorach
05-27-2008, 07:21
There is one, a fundamental one.
Patriotism - love of your country, the ability to sacrifice your time (if not life) for its prosperity and existence with respect to other nations and countries.
Ability to discuss its flaws and wrongdoings.
Something along the lines - 'I love my country despite its flaws and errors.'
Nationalism - lack of such respect. Putting your own nation above all others.
Inability to face criticism.
Something like that - 'I love my country which is the greatest, so is its history and achievements.'
Of course those would be examples of pure patriotism and nationalism, presently nationalism tends to be much more moderate.
This lack of ability to face criticism seems to be the most important factor - for a nationalist his/hers country innocent when it clearly is guilty.
A patriot is able to discuss the sins of his country or a nation on the ground of historical truth, not propaganda.
PanzerJaeger
05-27-2008, 07:35
Patriotism is simply an individual's pride in his nation, whereas nationalism refers more to an ideology, usually applied to a political movement or government.
While the two are interchangeable on an individual level, in this context - nation versus nation - nationalism refers to a very distinct method of rule.
Comparing the US and China offers a good example.
The US is a very patriotic nation. Many citizens believe the US is a great country, even the greatest. These feelings are largely organic and are the results of history, national success, prestige, etc. The US government, though, does precious little to promote these feelings. Some schools still recite the pledge of allegiance and individual municipalities are free to organize parades and such, but thats really as far as it goes.
China is a nationalist nation. Like many communist regimes, it is government policy to promote the supremacy of the nation and the system. This is done through mandatory meetings, rallies, parades, etc. Whether individual citizens are proud of China or not is of little importance, as they are required to be proud of China.
Nationalism at this level has very little to do with the individual superciliousness of the citizenry, and refers more to governing principle.
Nazi Germany was nationalist, as was the USSR - but not the US.
Putting your country's interests over the interests of others, sure, who wouldn't. Putting your nation above others, hell no that's chauvinism.
^--@cecorach
Putting your country's interests over the interests of others, sure, who wouldn't. Putting your nation above others, hell no that's chauvinism.
What exactly is the difference between "we're taking your land, your food and your lives because our nation is superior" and "we're taking your land, your food and your lives because it's in our country's best interest"?
What exactly is the difference between "we're taking your land, your food and your lives because our nation is superior" and "we're taking your land, your food and your lives because it's in our country's best interest"?
Well the first we don't and the second we don't do
Well the first we don't and the second we don't do
Not in the way I said it but in many other ways, to an extent I do it as well of course. I remember hearing that some countries (Italy IIRC) threw tons of tomatoes into the ocean to keep the prices stable, made me wonder why they wouldn't give them to hungry people for example. :shrug:
Not in the way I said it but in many other ways, to an extent I do it as well of course. I remember hearing that some countries (Italy IIRC) threw tons of tomatoes into the ocean to keep the prices stable, made me wonder why they wouldn't give them to hungry people for example. :shrug:
Maybe they did they tend to float in these waters
InsaneApache
05-27-2008, 12:06
It is enough to question the leadership abilities of people like Duke Wellington
and what was deficient in Wellingtons leadership qualities? :inquisitive:
:laugh4:
Why is family, easy to put culture right there.
As Viking pointed out, irrational support of one's family members regardless of the facts is not always a good thing. However, it is at least restricted to a strictly defined small group of people rather than an arbitrarily defined group of millions, most of whom you have never met.
As for culture, absolutely not. I consider culture to be the exact opposite of nationalism. It is doing something positive and creative, and the best cultural achievements benefit not just your own country, but the whole human race. Nationalism by contrast is inherently negative and destructive, it benefits no-one whilst breeding mistrust and dislike between people. If you want to see exactly what I mean by this, try visiting England sometime when the football team are playing Germany. How exactly is anyone better off for all this petty flag waving and hatred of an arbitrary group of foreigners?
Nationalism is about making oneself feel better about one's crummy nation by ignoring its flaws and pointing out how the guys next door are even worse, and if necessary making that the case by going to war with them to prove just how rubbish they are. Culture is about actually doing something worthwhile to ennoble your country and attract the goodwill of other nations by doing something which benefits everyone.
As Viking pointed out, irrational support of one's family members regardless of the facts is not always a good thing. However, it is at least restricted to a strictly defined small group of people rather than an arbitrarily defined group of millions, most of whom you have never met.
As for culture, absolutely not. I consider culture to be the exact opposite of nationalism. It is doing something positive and creative, and the best cultural achievements benefit not just your own country, but the whole human race. Nationalism by contrast is inherently negative and destructive, it benefits no-one whilst breeding mistrust and dislike between people. If you want to see exactly what I mean by this, try visiting England sometime when the football team are playing Germany. How exactly is anyone better off for all this petty flag waving and hatred of an arbitrary group of foreigners?
Nationalism is about making oneself feel better about one's crummy nation by ignoring its flaws and pointing out how the guys next door are even worse, and if necessary making that the case by going to war with them to prove just how rubbish they are. Culture is about actually doing something worthwhile to ennoble your country and attract the goodwill of other nations by doing something which benefits everyone.
Football? Cannot think of a more positive outing of nationalism really. You guys are confusing nationalism with chauvenism. Nationalism is a positive force, the tie that binds.
It reminds me of the Rudyard Kipling Poem The White Mans' Burden.
Dude. Dude! You left out the best lines:
By all ye cry and whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your Gods and you.
cegorach
05-27-2008, 14:22
As Viking pointed out, irrational support of one's family members regardless of the facts is not always a good thing. However, it is at least restricted to a strictly defined small group of people rather than an arbitrarily defined group of millions, most of whom you have never met.
As for culture, absolutely not. I consider culture to be the exact opposite of nationalism. It is doing something positive and creative, and the best cultural achievements benefit not just your own country, but the whole human race. Nationalism by contrast is inherently negative and destructive, it benefits no-one whilst breeding mistrust and dislike between people. If you want to see exactly what I mean by this, try visiting England sometime when the football team are playing Germany. How exactly is anyone better off for all this petty flag waving and hatred of an arbitrary group of foreigners?
Nationalism is about making oneself feel better about one's crummy nation by ignoring its flaws and pointing out how the guys next door are even worse, and if necessary making that the case by going to war with them to prove just how rubbish they are. Culture is about actually doing something worthwhile to ennoble your country and attract the goodwill of other nations by doing something which benefits everyone.
I think it is very naive.
Modern day nationalism - well... any nationalism actually since it is relatively new - usually was formed through culture.
The whole XIXth century sees nationalism and culture working side by side - not always, but often enough.
For example almost whole XIXth century Russian literature was very nationalistic. Writers such as Dostoyevskiy were supporting extremely nationalistic movements and traits - in a way it is easy to understand it was just after the Crimean War and during the January Uprising in Poland, Belorus and Lithuania which was vocally supported by western public opinion.
Several nations without a state fought through culture e.g. Irish, Serbs, Romanians, Greeks, Bulgarians and others. Sometimes it was a real cultural war just like with Germany vs. its minorities, especially Poles.
It seems that culture is more important for nationalism than any other form of activity.:inquisitive:
P.S. I hope you see the difference between patriotism and nationalism and the post was about nationalism only.
True, culture can be used to support nationalism. It is another way of saying "we are better than you, because our culture is better". However, that is not to say they are the same thing; I believe one can exist without the other.
Like I said, I believe the best cultural achievements transcend nationality. On the other hand, if a nationalistic piece of literature truly has nothing about it that foreigners could appreciate I would consider it to be nationalist propaganda rather than culture, although I realise there are many things which could be considered both, i.e. culture with nationalist influences, but still worthy of merit in its own right.
Certainly I was referring to nationalism, not patriotism, though I fear one can turn into the other all too easily. I repeat my question: How exactly is nationalism a force for good? How would the world be a worse place if we were to dispense with it entirely?
cegorach
05-27-2008, 16:22
True, culture can be used to support nationalism. It is another way of saying "we are better than you, because our culture is better". However, that is not to say they are the same thing; I believe one can exist without the other.
So true.
Certainly I was referring to nationalism, not patriotism, though I fear one can turn into the other all too easily.
Just like with everything else religiousness can turn itno fanaticism, atheism into militant breed of itself and so on.
Life is not easy.
I repeat my question: How exactly is nationalism a force for good? How would the world be a worse place if we were to dispense with it entirely?
Personally I can only see some situations when it helps and where patriotism might not be enough.
One is the most desperate circumstances - the simplification which is the core of nationalism might give enough strenght where patriotism as requiring more knowledge and tolerance is not enough.
So the question of the survival where you either survive or give up your nationality or life.
That is why the Balcans are so often seen as the proverbial nest of nationalism.
About nationalism doing something good - I guess as a factor to the earlier demise of the Soviet Union it certainly can claim its part in the one victory for the good of humanity.
About everything else doesn't require its presence - patriotism is just about anything you need.
rotorgun
05-27-2008, 17:45
Dude. Dude! You left out the best lines:
By all ye cry and whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your Gods and you.
Ooopps! You're right!
Here is the rest:
Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.
Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.
I do beg your pardon, yes they are the best lines.
About nationalism doing something good - I guess as a factor to the earlier demise of the Soviet Union it certainly can claim its part in the one victory for the good of humanity.
Indeed, but surely this must be weighed against its role in causing countless wars and crimes against humanity, including both world wars?
Pannonian
05-27-2008, 17:56
and what was deficient in Wellingtons leadership qualities? :inquisitive:
He wasn't known for effective delegation. Or any delegation, for that matter.
rotorgun
05-27-2008, 18:09
I see Poland is getting a large amount of votes. Pardon my ignorance, but what type of nationalism is Poland currently experiencing? Is it a state/political type or more of a primordial/cultural movement? :study:
I see Poland is getting a large amount of votes. Pardon my ignorance, but what type of nationalism is Poland currently experiencing? Is it a state/political type or more of a primordial/cultural movement? :study:
Nah nothing worth mentioning really. I did it for annoyance purposes.
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2008, 18:20
I live in britian but i hardly ever come across britsh nationalism, the only nationalism im subject to is Welsh nationalism which is mainly due to being controlled by a larger nieghbour for years, so im assuming most british nationalism comes from england itself, as my experience with the others is that they are proud welshmen scotsmen before any mention of Britian (with the possible exception of Northen Ireland)
Are British nationalists mainly older or younger people ?
Banquo's Ghost
05-27-2008, 18:48
I see Poland is getting a large amount of votes. Pardon my ignorance, but what type of nationalism is Poland currently experiencing? Is it a state/political type or more of a primordial/cultural movement? :study:
I think it is more an artefact of the unfair listing of the poll. (Pun not intended :embarassed: )
It would have been just as relevant to have put Ireland in the list, perhaps more so. We share with Poland a relatively recent release from occupation, and a long tradition of nursed grievances that have been exploited by politicians and interest groups.
The inclusion of Poland to the exclusion of some other, more qualified countries was a deliberate act, and we do indeed have some Polish members who occasionally stray into a nationalistic defence of their country. We also have some extremely erudite and well informed Polish members. This however could be said of many countries which suffer from occasional lapses into nationalism.
Eire certainly should be on the list and should be keeping Poland out of the running. I agree with cegorach that the UK ought to be up there too - but then that's probably just me being nationalistic. :wink3:
And if we want to visit the Premier League, let's try a Turkey/Greece/Balkan thread. :stupido2: Not.
cegorach
05-27-2008, 20:05
The inclusion of Poland to the exclusion of some other, more qualified countries was a deliberate act, and we do indeed have some Polish members who occasionally stray into a nationalistic defence of their country. We also have some extremely erudite and well informed Polish members. This however could be said of many countries which suffer from occasional lapses into nationalism.
Clearly some guys are waiting for Krook...
Eire certainly should be on the list and should be keeping Poland out of the running. I agree with cegorach that the UK ought to be up there too - but then that's probably just me being nationalistic. :wink3:
The list is based on some, clearly personal choices.
Just like with the British tabloids (maybe not recently) Poles is the easiest indentifiable target to their readers - it is hard to say anything which is easy to sell something about let's say Lithuanians or Bulgarians - some people do not even remember they exist and can't tell a difference between Budapest and Bukarest.
Simply noone would care.
And if we want to visit the Premier League, let's try a Turkey/Greece/Balkan thread. :stupido2: Not.
God, NO ! I still remember a thread in my forum between Romanians and Hungarians - I really could sell tickets for that...
cegorach
05-27-2008, 20:26
Indeed, but surely this must be weighed against its role in causing countless wars and crimes against humanity, including both world wars?
Of course.
I was trying to find a positive thing it achieved for the good of humanity.
As a firm believer of Polish Prometheism I see nationalism as an occassional tool if nothing else can be find, but that's all.:egypt:
atheotes
05-27-2008, 21:00
i am inexperienced, ignorant and prejudiced....
In real life i have never come across most of the people listed in the poll...
I have been in the US for the last 6+ years...
The chinese students i came across when i was a student here were not nationalist....
I voted USA.
Understood. Although, to really be an argumentative Brit, I could argue that the Soviet Union only came about as a consequence of WWI, which surely was largely caused by nationalism. Thus, with no nationalism, there would have been no SU in the first place. ~;)
I'm afraid I must confess my ignorance here, what exactly is Polish Prometheism?
cegorach
05-27-2008, 21:39
Understood. Although, to really be an argumentative Brit, I could argue that the Soviet Union only came about as a consequence of WWI, which surely was largely caused by nationalism. Thus, with no nationalism, there would have been no SU in the first place. ~;)
I'm afraid I must confess my ignorance here, what exactly is Polish Prometheism?
a bit off topic, but whatever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheism
Wikipedia is pretty enough to lear about it, but it is both older (under a different name and slighly different indesign) starting in mid XIXth century and in a way is still present (modified in various areas - borders have changed, EU and/or NATO membership instead of the Międzymorze Federation).
'For our freedom and yours' this sort of thing.
The latest initiative of our government called Eastern Partnership is just the latest phase in the efforts.
Even the political conflict betwen our government and the man who is called our president is minimal to non existent in this area.:yes:
Polish Prometheism?
Bad liver every day?
Tribesman
05-27-2008, 23:06
POLAND
:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:
Strike For The South
05-28-2008, 02:09
https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9655/abcek8.th.jpg (https://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abcek8.jpg)
https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8966/abc2gz4.th.jpg (https://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abc2gz4.jpg)
https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6372/abc1ny1.th.jpg (https://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abc1ny1.jpg)
we are what the rest of America pretends to be...bunch a nancies
King Jan III Sobieski
05-28-2008, 03:12
I'd say its either China, USA or Russia. Actually I'd say they are quite tied in terms of veracity in defending their nation from attacks made by word and force.
I'd tend to agree with ye, however, I knowest not enough about the sociology of the current populace of Poland - or the other nations for that matter - to say for sure.
Pannonian
05-28-2008, 03:44
we are what the rest of America pretends to be...bunch a nancies
So the rest of America pretends to be a bunch of nancies, but Texans are the true nancies?
LittleGrizzly
05-28-2008, 04:34
So the rest of America pretends to be a bunch of nancies, but Texans are the true nancies?
:laugh4: its only when you made a joke out of it i figured out what he was originally trying to say...
cegorach
05-28-2008, 06:44
Bad liver every day?
:laugh4:
That was actually very funny.
@TRIBESMAN
ONLY 20 flags :furious3: :furious3:
The absolute minimum is 44, edit your post right now !
Shaka_Khan
05-28-2008, 09:03
North Korea clearly means that China is just as nationalistic. They have 3 basic criteria
Communist (ish)
Has a neighbor that split away in the mid-20th century that is supported by the United States
Asian
This clearly means that any North Korean nationalism is easily transfered to China.
Ipso-Facto, China is the most nationalistic because it encompasses not only China, but North Korea as well.
~:confused:
Tribesman
05-28-2008, 10:48
The absolute minimum is 44, edit your post right now !
The powers that be have deemed my tribute to Krook to be unacceptable so adding more flags to that post is no longer an option .
LeftEyeNine
05-28-2008, 22:57
PO
LAND
Shaka_Khan
05-29-2008, 01:51
North Korea clearly means that China is just as nationalistic.
... Has a neighbor that split away in the mid-20th century that is supported by the United States...
This clearly means that any North Korean nationalism is easily transfered to China...
Also, could you explain your second reason?
Marshal Murat
05-29-2008, 02:44
North Korea vs. South Korea (1950s)
People's Republic of China vs. Republic of China (1950s)
South Korea and Republic of China are supported militarily by United States material, and in the case of South Korea, actual troops.
Russia, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Denmark… the list goes on.
CountArach
05-29-2008, 09:45
Russia, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Denmark… the list goes on.
Denmark really doesn't belong on that list.
CountArach
05-29-2008, 10:19
You'd be surprised.
I'm not denying there is nationalism there, I am just saying that compared to the other countries on that list...
And how is it that there has been very little mention of the Balkans in this thread?
Well Danes can be very closed and distant, don't know if I would call it nationalistic, I think it's just their way once they accept you they are nice people.
I'd probably say USA
--> when you say Britain, do you mean nationalism towards Britain as a whole, or to the individual countries, (ie. many in Scotland and Wales are nationalistic towards their own nations, but not England/Britain as a whole...
:2thumbsup:
Sarmatian
05-29-2008, 15:13
I'm not denying there is nationalism there, I am just saying that compared to the other countries on that list...
And how is it that there has been very little mention of the Balkans in this thread?
Because although a lot of Balkan countries are nationalistic, they're insignificant in size and influence so their nationalism, even when it's most extreme, doesn't really effect the world so much.
And Balkan nationalism has been exaggerated. Don't forget that there was a war here which is great fuel for spreading of nationalism. Just compare the amount of nationalism coming out from the Balkans 10-15 years ago and now. I imagine in 10 years there will be even less (if great powers don't decide to redraw the borders again in a decade that is).
Balkan countries were nationalistic just like all other countries would be in a similar situation.
Of the choices offered in the poll, I would have to say USA at the most nationalistic and Germany as the least nationalistic. There is only so much you can justify with "they threaten our way of life"...
LittleGrizzly
05-29-2008, 15:25
when you say Britain, do you mean nationalism towards Britain as a whole, or to the individual countries, (ie. many in Scotland and Wales are nationalistic towards their own nations, but not England/Britain as a whole...
If you were to include nationalism from scotland and wales i think it would move britian up the table alot, i experience a fairly large amount of welsh nationalism upfront, i probably just encourage it through my englishness though....
KukriKhan
05-29-2008, 16:03
Thread closed on OP's request. :bow:
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