What is the obsession with archers?

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't think a week goes by without someone complaining about how archers are "underpowered", no doubt coming straight from vanilla with the killer Cretan archers.

In the period we are concerned with, and especially in the west, bows weren't very powerful. They were especially weak against armoured targets and shields. Guess what - nearly everyone uses a shield. Lots of units also wear armour. Archers are skirmishers, light troops, which means their job is to drive off other light troops, and perhaps act as flankers when the lines are engaged, and they're out of ammunition.

If you want dangerous, get slingers. They're not as long-ranged, but they punch right through armour. They're even better at killing other skirmishers. Slinging is a forgotten art, but they were lethal, especially with bullets rather than stones.

Get with the program.

[||Lz3||]

throwing rocks isnt as fun as watching a rain of arrows fall into the enemy formation...:2thumbsup:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Actually, due to the fact that we have statted archery in this manner, Eastern foot-archery does feel somewhat under-powered (This is ultimately because in gameplay mechanics, all archers are more or less the same). Greeks mainly used archery as a part of their psiloi; In the East, archery along with the shock of the horse were the two most important instruments in deciding the battle. In other words, two different paradigms. We hope to solve this issue in EB2.

[||Lz3||]

why dont you just raise the attack and lethality of eastern archers?:huh2:

[Ibrahim]

I don't think a week goes by without someone complaining about how archers are "underpowered", no doubt coming straight from vanilla with the killer Cretan archers.

In the period we are concerned with, and especially in the west, bows weren't very powerful. They were especially weak against armoured targets and shields. Guess what - nearly everyone uses a shield. Lots of units also wear armour. Archers are skirmishers, light troops, which means their job is to drive off other light troops, and perhaps act as flankers when the lines are engaged, and they're out of ammunition.

If you want dangerous, get slingers. They're not as long-ranged, but they punch right through armour. They're even better at killing other skirmishers. Slinging is a forgotten art, but they were lethal, especially with bullets rather than stones.

Get with the program.

I read in Xenophon's work that the rodioi had very good range compared to what is equivalent to the toxotai..but Arab slingers are the best:laugh4:

[Korlon]

why dont you just raise the attack and lethality of eastern archers?:huh2:

I don't think lethality could be changed for ranged weapons, or maybe that's just for javelins.

[The Persian Cataphract]

No, I do not think lethality applies to missile weapons; I do know that there is the AP attribute, but that's not what we are looking for. We are looking at tactics, discipline, cohesion of fire and rate of fire. Raising attack is not going to change anything to the favour of our goals.

We are currently looking at how we could possibly tweak rate of fire and possibly add a certain tactical feature of eastern archery; The datâbam formation, which could in theory provide sustained barrages of arrows.

[Ibrahim]

is that a way of firing by ranks that databwhatever formation (sorry I'm not good at persian:embarassed: )

[General Appo]

Hey, there´s isn´t a Hollywood war movie were archers doesn´t kick the ass out of everybody. Even the Spartans in 300 got killed by archers.
Though most of the times the archers will just kill a shitload of people but once the enemy gets to melee distance there still appears to be just as many of them left, and the archers were just there for their awesome coolness (all LOTR movies, Gladiator, Troy, Attila, King Arthur, Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven, etc).

[The Persian Cataphract]

is that a way of firing by ranks that databwhatever formation (sorry I'm not good at persian:embarassed: )

Yes. There was a junior officer assigned to coordinate each rank/company of ten. The following illustration, I think, does a good job portraying the matter:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/images/spara.gif

One might just almost think "a phalanx of arrows", but it is an adequate comparison.

[Korlon]

Hey, there´s isn´t a Hollywood war movie were archers doesn´t kick the ass out of everybody. Even the Spartans in 300 got killed by archers.
Though most of the times the archers will just kill a shitload of people but once the enemy gets to melee distance there still appears to be just as many of them left, and the archers were just there for their awesome coolness (all LOTR movies, Gladiator, Troy, Attila, King Arthur, Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven, etc).

Indeed, I notice that all the time. One volley or two of arrows and half the enemy force is on the ground. Then they send in the infantry. Why not just shoot off a couple more volleys if the arrows are that powerful?

I think I'd like it much better if I saw a movie where they shot arrows and it just bounced off.

[Korlon]

Yes. There was a junior officer assigned to coordinate each rank/company of ten. The following illustration, I think, does a good job portraying the matter:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/images/spara.gif

One might just almost think "a phalanx of arrows", but it is an adequate comparison.

I think I read somewhere about the Persians using that sort of formation all the time. The first two ranks were the sparabara and the rest were the archers.

[||Lz3||]

well raising the attack would kinda improve eastern archers... so... they would be better than western... but still not really accurate with rate of fire...but.. well better that than nothing??:smash:

[Ibrahim]

interesting formation..this can be done on EB.(though no alternation of fire)

[Cyclops]

I find missile troops pretty decise at the moment. I limit myself to 4 foot missile troops per stack, otherwise my battles become more like musketry clashes. Perhaps that is the Eastern way of warfare, and I'm happy to top up my archery component with HA's if I ever playing a nomad faction.

I'm playing Baktria atm and I'm fielding a mix of foot archers with the occasional slinger thrown in. They are quite powerful enough, especially after earning their chervons decimating cataphracts from the walls of the capital.

I feel the balance is getting finer and finer with each version. EG elephants feel just a touch tougher in 1.1, not substantially but just a wee bit steadier. I will definitely be using them as they are no longer a bumbling Achille's heel, whereas before I'd build them for flavour (as a kind of good luck charm for my Baktrian FL) but they'd stay well behind the battle line.

[Defensore]

kinda off topic but, is it possible (be it in EB, RTW, or Medieval 2) to make archers fire all at once? All firing at same time would be nice :beam:

[Korlon]

kinda off topic but, is it possible (be it in EB, RTW, or Medieval 2) to make archers fire all at once? All firing at same time would be nice :beam:

Kind of. If I change a unit of archers's attack target mid-pull, all of them fire at once. Amazing spectacle if you do a ton of them at once.

[Defensore]

So I tell them to attack, and after they've raised the bows I tell them to attack again?

[Ibrahim]

I did that in ROP mod: the babylonians had 5 units of archers. the volley blotted out the sun so to speak. they killed off an entire unit in one volley.:skull: :skull: the enemy lost 1300(out of 1325) men. I lost just 40 (out of 1250)

[Korlon]

So I tell them to attack, and after they've raised the bows I tell them to attack again?

It pretty much has to be timed just right. I haven't figured out just when to do it. It's easier with flaming arrows. I've never tried with regular arrows.

And it's not to attack again. You must attack another unit if you want them to fire all at once.

[Defensore]

Ok, thank you Korlon, shall try soon!

[Hax]

If you want dangerous, get slingers. They're not as long-ranged, but they punch right through armour. They're even better at killing other skirmishers. Slinging is a forgotten art, but they were lethal, especially with bullets rather than stones.

Did you ever use Eastern Slingers, Sphendonetai Rhodioi? They beat archers in range, by a long shot.

Pun not intended.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I think I read somewhere about the Persians using that sort of formation all the time. The first two ranks were the sparabara and the rest were the archers.

Correct.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/images/guards2500.gif

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/images/march2.jpg

The formation is, if we excuse the presence of the ceremonial uniforms, is in other words an element combining a shield-wall of spears, with a corpus of archers, in a clear attempt of rectifying the main weakness of archers; Melee combat. Now archers were never outstanding fighters lest it was some elite reserve trained in many ways of conducting war (The Immortals or the Apple-bearers, see picture below), but here is a sufficiently disciplined formation which had some means of halting infantry and cavalry assaults, not to forego the obvious advantages against enemy archers. With spears and bows, and a defensive wall to the front and the sides, a dug trench/moat and in front of it scattered caltrops, we have an excellent array of defences facilitating the effectiveness of this unit.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/images/march1.jpg

[Ibrahim]

can you PM me a summary of persian phlavan and other iranian poeple's tacts, please oh TPC? also, if possible, do you know the origions of the deylamites style of warfare (bright roud shield, funky Sagaris?, heavy armor).

I gotta go eat.

[QuintusSertorius]

Did you ever use Eastern Slingers, Sphendonetai Rhodioi? They beat archers in range, by a long shot.

Pun not intended.

Never been that far east, to date. Are they a mercenary unit?

Best I've seen are Balearic slingers, who are better than Gallic ones, and miles better than Roman accensi. Although get a bit of experience and upgraded weapons on the other two, and they'll do.

[The Persian Cataphract]

can you PM me a summary of persian phlavan and other iranian poeple's tacts, please oh TPC? also, if possible, do you know the origions of the deylamites style of warfare (bright roud shield, funky Sagaris?, heavy armor).

I gotta go eat.

Do I look like a masochist to you...? That would take me ages ~:joker:

http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/military_articles.htm

This should do, for starters.

[russia almighty]

Gah, I hate the video you got those SN's in reference


the English translation sucked, the video quality is piss poor (that is forgivable though, 1970's video tech + youtube=something ugly) and the kataphraktoi did not get the airtime they deserved.

[Ibrahim]

Do I look like a masochist to you...? That would take me ages ~:joker:

http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/military_articles.htm

This should do, for starters.

I only asked for a summary, not an encyclopedia..:laugh4: :laugh4:

thanks!!:balloon2: :balloon2: for you!

[The Persian Cataphract]

Gah, I hate the video you got those SN's in reference


the English translation sucked, the video quality is piss poor (that is forgivable though, 1970's video tech + youtube=something ugly) and the kataphraktoi did not get the airtime they deserved.

The video is the epitome of pawn. It is just a shame that the publically available edition is so abridged that it spans less than fifteen minutes; The archival footage was much longer, had significantly better quality and the audio was even useful for direct sampling. Proof of its existance was featured, very briefly in the BBC-sponsored documentary "<i>The Last Shah</i>".

My favourites, without a doubt were the Parthian and Sassanian knights, but the care they put into the regimental parade music is perhaps the most interesting aspect of it all.

For everyone else; Make sure you see this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtac6EXGrQ) and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEuh8BzKQzc).

[russia almighty]

Why am I guessing that the archival version would be impossible to find, unless you hunted the fringes of torrents, or went 007 in some archives building in Iran?

[Ibrahim]

The video is the epitome of pawn. It is just a shame that the publically available edition is so abridged that it spans less than fifteen minutes; The archival footage was much longer, had significantly better quality and the audio was even useful for direct sampling. Proof of its existance was featured, very briefly in the BBC-sponsored documentary "<i>The Last Shah</i>".

My favourites, without a doubt were the Parthian and Sassanian knights, but the care they put into the regimental parade music is perhaps the most interesting aspect of it all.

For everyone else; Make sure you see this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtac6EXGrQ) and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEuh8BzKQzc).

~:eek: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

WDIT: ok, I'm back, and I've nailed my jaws shut. anywaays:

wasn't he the guy who made a golden toilet for himself (the shah?)-just wondering.
I also have some questions on sassanid and parthian clothes: the barding isawesome-is that where you all get part of the idea for the armor? that's neet!! (and shiny)

[craziii]

my main complain is that in 1.1, alot of the archers in the east only carry like 15-20 arrows. I am not talking about the elite archers.

[hoom]

Well, I'm having no particular complaints with the strength of archers in my Baktria campaign.

I have even defeated two units of Argyraspide Seleukid mail veil guys primarily with the archers (2/3 casualties).

Not shooting from dead on in front of the enemy is a big thing.
Get in behind or round the side & you can do some big damage quickly.

Against those plentiful eastern unarmoured units its almost like the good old days of Shogun:TW with Samurai Archers slaughtering rank on rank of Ashigaru :yes:

Edit: I think the effectiveness or otherwise of archers has a lot to do with unit size too.
4 units of 160 soldiers all shooting arrows is vastly more arrows than 4 units of 80 + similarly more targets, so there is more percentage chance of getting a hit & with more hits per volley, higher chance of kills.

[Hax]

my main complain is that in 1.1, alot of the archers in the east only carry like 15-20 arrows. I am not talking about the elite archers.

Carrying arrows can get quite bulky after a while, especially when you're carrying more than ten. I believe the eastern archers have at least 30+.

[General Aetius]

Archers are awesome, especially horse archers. As a HA general all you have to do is shoot all your arrows into the enemy and then hurl your heavy cavalry in and the enemy crumbles. foot archers are useful from city walls or in defencive battles when there is plenty time to finish all your arrows on the enemy.

General aetius

[Elmetiacos]

Actually, due to the fact that we have statted archery in this manner, Eastern foot-archery does feel somewhat under-powered (This is ultimately because in gameplay mechanics, all archers are more or less the same). Greeks mainly used archery as a part of their psiloi; In the East, archery along with the shock of the horse were the two most important instruments in deciding the battle. In other words, two different paradigms. We hope to solve this issue in EB2.
You're kidding! I've played a couple of games as Baktria and one of the most effective ways of winning battles is to get lots of Subeshi Archers and shoot the enemy to pieces before they can even touch me. It doesn't work as well on heavy units, but there are other ways to deal with those.

[The Persian Cataphract]

The Subeshi archers are different in an important sense; We made them awesome for one reason only, and that was their superior equipment (The Subeshi bow for instance was one of the most advanced bows of its time, and the arrows used by them may according to some analysis on arrows in Pazyryk have exceeded some 80cm, or two feet and nine-ten inches), allowing them to out-range horse-archers, as foot-archers with their ground platform, as opposed to the horse-back, always had the advantage of stationary precision, as well as the greater capacity of storing the energy, the Subeshi bow dwarfens the Western-Scythian model. If the Subeshi archers rock, then it is intended for it :smash:

However what they have in punch, they lack in versatility. I'd almost compare it to the Iberian solifera and the its tactical usage by Iberian warriors to the pila used by the Romans. The soliferum is absolutely devastating, but the pilum is not the baby's javelin toy either. The Medean-Achaemenian archer formations, with shield-walls, spears and continuous hails, with newly introduced Western-Scythian bows and a greater influx of the Parthian-style gorytoi... If we sacrifice slightly on the nasty punch of the proto-Hunnic bows of the Subeshi and Qum-Darya, but add safety-measures such as light but large and tough pavises, some padded armour and a big stick to discourage light horse, along with a tried and tested archer tactic, and I think it sums up versatility in a nutshell.

Unfortunately on the RTW engine, options are limited, but with M2TW and the "stakes" feature, which I hope can be tweaked for our pursposes, I think we've got better prospects ahead of us.

[The General]

Am I alone to think that this cavalryman's helmet looks awfully (Greek/Etruscan/)Roman in style? And the shoulder-'pads' awfully... Greek?
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Military/Achaemenid_Cavalary.gif
(Hawt picture btw, prettyprettypretty. And yeash, I 'stole' from the site TPC linked to. Gonna check it out in detail when I've got the time. :yes: )

[Watchman]

AFAIK that pattern of "tube-and-yoke" corselet originated in Egypt, what with the developement of the linothorax-type textile cuirass (likely) from the old New Kingdom infantry soft-armours during the Saïtic period. Both the Greeks and Persians (who were nothing if not willing to pick up armaments and tactics they found effective from foreigners) knew a good thing when they saw one and cheerfully adopted it on a wide scale - encrusting the thing with metal scales was a similarly universal means of augmenting its defensive value, provided the warrior was willing to deal with the extra expense, weight and whatnot.

[The General]

AFAIK that pattern of "tube-and-yoke" corselet originated in Egypt, what with the developement of the linothorax-type textile cuirass (likely) from the old New Kingdom infantry soft-armours during the Saïtic period. Both the Greeks and Persians (who were nothing if not willing to pick up armaments and tactics they found effective from foreigners) knew a good thing when they saw one and cheerfully adopted it on a wide scale - encrusting the thing with metal scales was a similarly universal means of augmenting its defensive value, provided the warrior was willing to deal with the extra expense, weight and whatnot.
Ha!

I was trying to get someone who actually knows about the subject to come and enlighten me, so, thanks. I was eager to know where from the influences come or if they were actually of Persian origin. Now, I only "need" someone who could tell me the story of that helmet...