View Full Version : Papewaio\'s Rant
Papewaio
10-21-2002, 20:45
Back briefly again.
In these forums one of the reasons it has been successful (until the last few months) has been that the moderators ARE patrons and that we still stay as such. We are not paid, we do it out of love of the Org.
We are chosen normally from patrons who post a lot (or otherwise have our finger on the pulse) and help to cool down problems.
I'm not impressed with the SP are greater then and vice a versa. As I already stated I only play SP, and yes a year ago that was considered as if you were handicapped or as I stated recently in another thread that admitting I was an exclusive SP player in this community (the Org) is like comming out of the closet in a small country town.
Now one of the things to remember is to have a thick hide, tongue firmly in cheek and if a guy makes a moronic or rude statement and if you make one back. Well for the rest of us its like watching two guys trying to be the town fool.
One of our greater patrons signature went along the lines of'Don't argue with fools you only drag yourself down to their level. And if you do go down they will beat you with their experience.'
Now obviously most of you are unaware of the reason I have been briefly back and still unavailable to spank patrons in MTW see point number two for why I am back.
1/ We are moderators, not your parents! Average age here last year was about 33 I believe and it dropped to 27 mid this year. Even the prior younger patrons showed more common sense then name calling. Back your statements with references if you wish to make factual ones, show where you are getting the facts... the idea of the Org is a general neutral community where we share information politely (Imagine a tea ceremony for Samurai, or the Saloon in a Western where you drink with the guy and it is when you go outside you have the gunfight, or Highlander and this place is holy ground). If you are saying something as a retort I prefer Oscar Wilde not Adam Sandler etc
2/ Because of finger pointing, whining and false acquaistions/witch hunt TWO of our Adminstrators out of THREE have just resigned.
3/ If you are going to post and/or roleplay on these boards do it as heroically and politly as possible.
4/ PAF is not spam when posted be Cheetah it is spam when posted randomly by other patrons. Cheetah is our Archivist, he formats all the really good informative threads into more streamlined versions for the archives. PAF means Pre-Archive Forum where Cheetah does his wonderous work.
5/ These boards are supposed to be able to be viewed in your home with children wandering around. As such no swearing is to be used.
6/ Insulting other members will be tolerated within limits. Calling someone a Nazi, being racist are not tolerated and if asked by another patron to clarify your position (sometimes something that comes across as insultive is not how it is meant at all... remember we are global and while a fag means a cigarette in some countries it means homosexual in others etc) then please do so. If it is insultive then reformat your post. Moderators will do so if the post is blatant.
7/ Read the conditions of what you signed when joining this forum. It is not a democracy and even if it was the moderators are the police and as such we are not subject to votes but to the 'law'. What the forum is is a private venue for the discussion of all things Totalwar without having one. It is moderated by patrons. The aim of the Org is to provide a community. As such every patron has an equal responsibility for providing that sense of community. If you wet your bed you clean it up. If you are obnoxious do not point to other threads as an excuse, clean it up. The Org community is first and foremost a fansite for fans in all forms. Be they of any nation, race, religion, age group or sex (yes we actually do have at least two confirmed female patrons, which does mean I am hogging half of that select part of the community to myself).
My motto for this site is MP for SP and SP for MP so you can understand my irratation lately when I have seen this site degenerate into SP vs MP bickering and insults.
average age 27?? are all you guys that old.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif jeez i feel like a kid now im only 18 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Sjakihata
10-22-2002, 00:31
lol me too...
Pape got a point ( do not use this as a sig http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I actually enjoyed shogun as sp more than mp my self. The thing I do not understand is, why some care if u play sp or mp, just as long as you are having fun, is that not the main goal with pc games?
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*bows* - Power to the Sultan!
Clan Seljuk
Good post Pape!
Shame you can't do stickys cos it would be a good one to keep around for a while! Maybe something like this could do with being posted in the homepage news section?
Wow! I didnt realise that the recent admin changes were down to the bickering, a real shame that folks who cared enough about the site to be admin, have felt so disillusioned that their only option was to move on! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Obakes sig, so good i've committd it to memory, and have actually used it in real life:
"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience"
I understand what you're saying about finger pointing at other threads not being an excuse for impoliteness, but if people see such behaviour going unchecked, then there will be those who assume that it is acceptable to behave in such a manner.
I'm sure that modding is not an easy job, and that to police the boards as much as they might need it, would take an unreasonable amount of your time, especially as you are all volunteers with real lives to lead!
So please DO NOT take this as criticism of the fine job that you chaps do, but the impression i've got is that benign spam, repeated topics, and benign but OT topics have suffered more from mod intervention, since i've been posting here, than the flame threads. All of these things may be clutter & i'm sure are not ideal to have laying around, but (and this is just my opinion) surely knocking flaming on the head should be a higher priority. Which I guess is your aim with this thread, so, err, i'll just shut up now....
*siddles off looking embarrassed* http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Nicely said, I'm backing you
Sjakihata Akechi,
I see the same dynamic in multiplayer Total War that I've observed over many years of playing chess in a club. Some people play for fun and some people play for blood. When you play for fun the important thing is playing. When you play for blood the important thing is winning. Everyone wanted to win of course, but the blood player "had" to win. Competitiveness is a good quality to have, but I think you can have too much of it. I guess it's too much when you start viewing opponents as just something to be crushed and cast aside on your way to your next opponent.
Good observation Puzz! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
solypsist
10-22-2002, 01:35
just for the record, I'm an excludively SP player, too.
Quote Originally posted by Papewaio:
As I already stated I only play SP, and yes a year ago that was considered as if you were handicapped or as I stated recently in another thread that admitting I was an exclusive SP player in this community (the Org) is like comming out of the closet in a small country town.
[/QUOTE]
Ohhh yes, I remember that...
I was briefly here back in september 2000, but I desided that people here were too elitist, too negative towards my mainly SP playing.
I only came back in force earlier this year (after having found out that my 'old' handle was gone).
But all in all the Guild has become a more balanced forum now. But sadly there are so many new people that don't read the rules... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Hosakawa Tito
10-22-2002, 01:46
Well stated Pape, people must realize that the freedom to be a member of the org comes with the responsibilty to abide by its rules of conduct. You don't get one without the other, they come as a set only. A person can never go wrong being civil, even when one gets flamed. The average age of patrons is 27, which only goes to show that chronological age does not always equate to maturity. I hope the community can get through this without too much more damage.
Well, I guess I should apologize again to all the patrons here for my contribution to some of the less temperate posts. Believe it or not, the things that I've posted were in good intention, and in my eyes I wanted to stop the flaming and insulting of the certain part of the community, in a way that I would react to any posts that offend people on other basis, such as sex, nationality, etc., that is to point out to people that posted them that they can be perceived as being disrespectfull. I realise that it was a bit out of line and out of my "jurisdicition", and I'm sorry for that. My opinion of those posts has not changed, however, but I wil refrain from responding to them in future.
Mea culpa.
It is interesting in fact to note that I am also a SP only player.
Pape is entirely correct in everything he has said.
My motto for this forum is simple: be nice. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif It sounds moronic but the nice rule has kept .org together through thick and thin. Just take a second and think before you flame.
I haven't been as focusing enough on this forum lately and I take the blame if some arguments got out of control. I apologize.
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"Everything Shiro said sounds good to me."
-Solypsist
Wow, I'm the only other woman here? Now don't you guys think you should be nice to me?!
This is such a great site and a great game, I really appreciate everyone's efforts.
Duke of Cornwall
10-22-2002, 04:11
Hi guys - I've only just joined (XMB board being down and all, I thought to have a look around...).
Am concerned about Pape's rant:
Is this board unfriendly ?
Was joining a mistake ?
solypsist
10-22-2002, 04:16
this board is very friendly, and helpful, too. and us Moderators are easily the most liberal conductors of order in our hemisphere today....(and tomorrow, the world!)
Highlander
10-22-2002, 04:17
*Raises up from his chair and looks around at the group before clearing his throat*
Ahem, My name is Highlander, and um, I am strictly a SPer too.
Hey with my 56k, on line games are off limits http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Nice post, hope this bumps it back up.
Negative
10-22-2002, 04:33
Well, I guess I'll step out of the closet as well. I'm an SPer and heve been for most of my gaming life (Sounds like an AA meeting dosent it?). I hate to say it, but the people who have been posting in this thread also seem to be the nicest people I have seen in the Org. I hope people don't turn that around to think that I hate MPers. It's just an observation. Heck I plan on trying MP once I get my cable connection.
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It's not the size of the army that matters. It's how you use it.
Cyricist
10-22-2002, 05:30
Nah Sidhe.. I play a lot online.. and I am alsoe more of a thinker than a quick reactor. And there is a distinct difference, as pointed out, between people (thinkers & planners) playing for fun and people (skullthumpers) playing to win.
I do have the combat reflexes of a cat online (thus I need no pause button) but that is only because I am used to a lot of (bad) online RTS games. I just need to speed up thinking online to actually have fun.. which sort of sucks at times.. but hey that's why we have SP http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif !
Boondock Saint
10-22-2002, 05:40
Wow ... all these nice people.
You ever been to an AA meeting? Nothing like this.
I am SP only too but thats because I have no freinds. This one time i met this person who was being really nice to me and I thought I had made a freind but ... no ... he just wanted to steal my car ...
Oh and then there was this freindly lady that I met out in Cali ... yea ... turns out she wanted to get paid ... I thought she really like me too ...
Oh ... this rant ... sorry to hear people are leaving due to unhappyness. Honestly I am a .com person who is waiting for the patch and here for whatever updates might be out there. Apparently there arent any ... Obake is now a mod over at .com ... he had to warn us a few times ...
If .org and .com were schools in the same town .org would be an ivy league university and .com would be the local community college that all the poor kids go to just so they have something to do during the day.
Thats a ramble ... ramble ramble ramble.
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.com died ... so I am here ...
[This message has been edited by Boondock Saint (edited 10-21-2002).]
t1master
10-22-2002, 05:47
my name is.... i've beeb a sp player for ever...
really mp doesn't appeal much to me, but don't let little old me get in the way http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
It just irritates me how in a thread about MP unit balance you will always see a few people who simply do not understand that the thread is about MP and start going on about how great so and so unit is in SP. That kind of comment does not contribute in any way to a discussion about MP unit balance.
Sir Kuma of The Org
10-22-2002, 06:50
Cool, a coming out thread.....
(yeah, i prefer sp over MP and i haven't played MTW MP yet and don't plan to...)
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What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger
My goodness.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
So many secret SP'ers among the high people from the STW days... Oh if this had been common knowledge in those days. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
*Drifts off to a dreamworld*
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
And it's working... My therapist said it would.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by Arcsim:
It just irritates me how in a thread about MP unit balance you will always see a few people who simply do not understand that the thread is about MP and start going on about how great so and so unit is in SP. That kind of comment does not contribute in any way to a discussion about MP unit balance.[/QUOTE]
Really does it not? not being much of an MP player, I really don't know. BUT I would have thought that the SP player is talking about the same units in the same game, admittedly, our experience is mainly against a moron of an opponent (the AI), but are you so absolutely certain that an SP player can bring nothing whatsoever to the debate? and even if you are, are you sure that every other MP player feels exactly the same as you?
Fine, you may feel that a particular post brings nothing to the debate, but it has probably only been put there by someone who thinks they're being helpful in some way. If you don't think it's worthy of an answer, no ones making you reply, another member of the community may actually think it's a valid point. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I'm not saying that you are are a culprit in anyway with the next bit I have to say, but i have seen on a number of occasions (as an observer, not a participant), a poster being quite rudely put down, & more or less told that their opinion isnt wanted, for making an observation on a thread that isnt even marked MP clearly at the top, but which has developed that way, or which someone else thinks should be going that way.
IMHO this kind of behaviour seems rather intolerant. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Symbiosis_Bob
10-22-2002, 07:47
well, frankly, all you exclusively sp people scare me like some kind of explicative spewing monster, which also happens to be a hotdog salesman on tuesdays - but not on mondays or thursdays. He must check with his parole officer, you know. Anyway. YEAH!
The therapy is definitively working... This is a second post that I didn't respond to..... Hoorah........ http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Btw, right on, Wart...... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Pape, or POPE, I think deep down you are looking for a role model to say, "Be like him/her, right?"
Therefore I recommend myself. With the wind in my face and striding on a fast horse, I can be called handsome by a good natured liar.
I also always, like you insist, post temperately, although I do post tropically, depending on which country I am in.
What's more, I have the finest manly chest you have ever seen. Some say its primal, some say its pigeon, I say its puuuuuuuuurfect.
Therefore with all of the above, I would like to considered for the position of "Role Model Poster Extraordinarie" with a title conferring -1 dread, 2 command which can be exchanged for candy, and a deeply negative acumen.
Please consider seriously Sir. I await your reply with trepidation (do you have a daughter btw?)
The offer of your emissary, TheWay, was considered insulting and the rebel leader took his head off.
Next time, raise the offer.
ShadeWraith
10-22-2002, 14:04
Yes I wholeheartedly agree, ALL SP players are well rounded enlightened individuals who go out of their way to help grannies cross the road. This is in sharp contrast to all those vile MP players who's sole purpose in life is to torture small furry mammals and hound "innocent" admins into premature retirement. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
BTW Pap I thought "Teragate" was not to be mentioned...kind of like Voldermort in Harry Potter...."he who shall not be named" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Wraith
Don't you think that calling new patrons "small furry mammals" is a bit exaggerated? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I've done both MP and SP and both can be entertaining. However, I bought the game for SP, and 95% of my time is spent on it.
All opinions are fine as long as :
- they are presented as opinions and not facts
- some patrons stop the 'pissing far' contest. You're not stronger/more intelligent if you play one way or another. As soon as we stop getting peremptory rants like 'u SP guys r crap cuz the AI is crap!', tempers will calm down.
[This message has been edited by maroule (edited 10-22-2002).]
Duke of Cornwall
10-22-2002, 16:17
Well, well, well. Not one raised voice so far this thread. This bodes well and I am now confident enough with myself and my role in the universe to confess that I too have only ever played STW & MTW in SP. I admit to enjoying 'toying' with the AI just as it enjoys sending me apopleptic with it's decisions. It's a virtual relationship that no MP experience could ever threaten.
For sheer mocking sophistry, my vote goes to TheWay. Feel free to add Joker (+10% Karma, -10% Command) to your V&Vs.
Karma ? Oh yes. That's another attribute the manual never explained. But it will be covered in the patched Strategy Guide http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
SP here too !! and I like Goats....
Cyricist
10-22-2002, 17:15
I play both SP and MP.. and about morons as opponents.. I think we have them in both catagories, SP and MP. But let's not forget it's ONE game, and SP & MP discussions can run side by side, as long as you state clearly (or your post does) what you are addressing. I find people who keep ranting on about a thread being SP or MP, or SP or MP being superior to eachother extremely useless.
I think we may conclude there is a difference in skill involved though. In SP, that is the campaign game, people ave to think both strategically and tactically, while online you have to think tactically or, in some cases, not think at all ('skull thumping one-unit-type RTS bashing').
As stated before, some play to win and some just to enjoy playing. There is oft friction between the two and seeing the nature of these rants there is very little one can do.
My advice in this case would be: play the game like you want to play it. if you play SP and enjoy that, stick to it. If you enjoy MP but online whilst 'skull-thumping' your way into certain victory, stick to it and find suitable opponents via a good 'game name'. The same goes for people who want to win by tactical thinking. Find buddies and do mighty battle. Or as Master Sun once said: 'do not engage in battle where you do not have advantage'
Umm.. yeah that's pretty much what I wanted to say..
spiffy_scimitar
10-22-2002, 17:50
I'm usually on SP, because even though you get 6 hours of taping on EP the quality sucks. Oh wait, what were we talking about?
[This message has been edited by spiffy_scimitar (edited 10-22-2002).]
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif nice one! - Soly
[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 10-22-2002).]
Rosacrux
10-22-2002, 18:03
Why can't we all live together, like brothers and sisters... hmm... no? OK, let's move on:
anyways... bottom line is this: Play the game, have fun and if you really have to brag about how kewl and big and bad and a nasty mfsob you are, do it among your pals and buddies, in private please
Some people (me included) play this game to actually have fun, kill some time in a manner we like and enjoy (and our idea of fun has never been to go on Gamespy and line up 16 Feudal sergeants to beat the other guys brains out and then to go to the .com to brag on how biiig and bad they are), not to look kewl or feel superior of a sort.
Coming online to belittle those people is plain stupid - and I have seen this attitude by some younger patrons here. That kind of attitude is not being adressed at all by the moderators, who only get in the middle when the SP lot reacts to the immature offending stupidity that is roaming around (not a particular poster, just a general attitude).
So, Papegaio and the others: If this is a forum dedicated to MP, that's fine with me. But you'd have to state so and state it loud and clear. Either that, or try to put a leash to those who belittle the rest of us, with comments like "hey dude, sp sukz, yar idiot, go gamespy 'd I'll kick ya azz"
Believe it or not, 80% of MTW shall never play this game online. That's quite a majority there.
LittleGrizzly
10-22-2002, 18:58
but a higher percentage of the mp mtw'ers well register here than sp mtw'ers another nce fact for ya http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
i dont have a problem with sp over mp or vce versa and i mainly stick to convos about mp playing and balancing and i think what the guy somewhere near top meant was not that sp'ers dont as good a view as us (superior http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif) mp'ers but that for example cost doesnt matter as much in sp (or is that just me?) so a unit being over priced wont affect it as much in sp as mp
another example is a unit being to strong when valuored up as in sp ud need a damn good gen and some good buildings to do so but in mp u just spend a bit of money and u got (an example not true) a peasent capable of beating fuedal foot knight
so whereas someone who plays mp would realise these are unbalanced (or keep em to himself) a sp wouldnt see these affects as an mp would
and im sure there are examples where an mp could go into a convo which ud understand more as an sp
that said i havent got a problem with any
(adds pape shiro soly ect. to kill list http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif)
edit: papewio well said rant but rants require more swearing ya cant rant unless ya swear !!!!
(thats if ur not an immature 16 yr old like me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by LittleGrizzly (edited 10-22-2002).]
indeed, MP and SP 'combos' and units comparisons are completely different. An SP player has next to nothing to learn from an MP player's appreciation of units (and vice versa of course).
For example, MP ignores two huge variable that good SP players keep looking at : upkeep and general's effect. More generaly, all units tend to get their use (except maybe hashishin) so I get somehow annoyed by definite judgements like 'this unit is crap'. Of course we all have definite opinions, I personally think longbowmen stink mightily, but it's just my experience, and I accept it's very partial.
What we need most is not politness but tolerance.
People, people....... Nobody is giving any qualitative judgements about which mode is better (well, at least nobody should http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ), because it's a nonsense to think of it that way. Noone is saying that you shouldn't post about things that interest you, and that you have to give a justification why it interests you.
*All we are saying is that everything can be said in a way that is not rude. Show respect to other patrons even if you disagree with them.*
Well, at least that's what I am saying........
ToranagaSama
10-23-2002, 00:32
Quote Originally posted by Duke of Cornwall:
Karma ? Oh yes. That's another attribute the manual never explained. But it will be covered in the patched Strategy Guide http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
Rolling On The Floor Laughing The F OutLoud!!!
Your right, they need to "patch" the Fing manual! I wonder how long that'd take?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif
ToranagaSama
10-23-2002, 00:48
Quote Originally posted by Rosacrux:
So, Papegaio and the others: If this is a forum dedicated to MP, that's fine with me. But you'd have to state so and state it loud and clear. Either that, or try to put a leash to those who belittle the rest of us, with comments like "hey dude, sp sukz, yar idiot, go gamespy 'd I'll kick ya azz"
Believe it or not, 80% of MTW shall never play this game online. That's quite a majority there.[/QUOTE]
I second that!
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BTW, CA/Activision, hope your listening closely, its s/b easy to determine that the bulk of the TW audience is being ignored and isolated by the lack of a Campaign Multiplay environment.
To the Total War Single Play (Campaign Play) community:
Next time the issue of Campaign Multiplay comes up, a little back-up would be appreciated. Each and Every time, the issue is "Shouted Down" by the MPers and the Moderators back them up. If there can be a thread a Hundred posts long about, 1/2/3 vs 4/5/6 vs. 8/9/7, I think we can talk a bit about Campaign Multiplay. Somehow, this topic along with the patch have become Verbotten??
Boondock Saint
10-23-2002, 01:38
Heggs ... I like goats too ...
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.com died ... so I am here ...
Cyricist
10-23-2002, 02:01
Sidhe: what a brilliant sollution!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Worth a try! Definitely!!
Hirosito
10-23-2002, 11:00
i absolutetly love diplomacy the board game.
but to more serious matters. i take the whole reponsibilty for all the troubles the org has had since august 19th. for from that day on i stopped posting in the babe thread which has obviously screwed with the yin and yang of this place. i apologise.
but really i dont even realise mp'ers and sp'ers fight with each other so much. maybe io dont go into those threads because i dont have the game but still i agree that sometimes guys should just stay out of some discussions when it is obvious that their post is not going to be relevant. but if you post and then i hope you think that your post relevant (this is what everyone should think) then noone has the right to shoot them down except with reasoned argument. saying AI is crap so i know better doesn't count.
get along guys and visit off-topic more often! OK? good.
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Hirosito Mori
Hirosito the Baptist of the Babbiest Babe Thread.
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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