The EB/BI 1.6 project

[Maion Maroneios]

Hello fellas,

I, as most of you out there, am a huge EB fan. It is, IMHO, the mother of all mods. In my humble jurney to please my own tastes, I have always made my own little changes to EB, like playing with the BI engine, adding the BI formations and other things.

Let me get to the point; I have always wanted to play EB with as many BI features as possible, in order to enhance gameplay, as well as historical accuracy. I was wondering if anyone out there was willing to help me with this project, which will convert EB to be completely playable with the BI engine patched to 1.6, along with many extra features available to this awesome expansion.

I have already started doing some minor changes, but there are still plenty of things I'd like to implement. Here are some of the things I want to implement, as well as the basic things I have already done so far;

1) Play EB with BI.exe, obviously (done)
2) Add shield_wall, schiltrom formations for specific units (semi-done)
3) Add the can_swim, warcry and can_horde attributes for specific units (semi-done)
4) Implement the religion system for EB (not done)
5) Make specific factions become hording factions (semi-done)
6) Make specific factions re-emergent (semi-done)
7) Add night battles (not done)

I am eagerly awaiting for your thoughts and ideas about this, as I was originally planning of doing this myself. If this is worked by as many as possible, we can complete and release this project to the public. Anyone interested in helping me, please pm me!

[Mediolanicus]

I'm not such a fan of schiltrom and can_swim myself, and I've added shield wall and warcry myself to the EDU, but I'm really looking forward to the other features!
I didn't know you could make factions re-emergent?

[brymht]

I actually already did this for the BI campaign I was playing, for the most part. Keep in mind, adding shield wall and shiltrom will actually unbalance many units that were meticulously balanced by the EB folks, and quite well most of the time. So be very careful how its done. In my campaign, it generally meant that the only units who could go up against a unit of professional solders with shield_wall was another unit of professionals with shield_wall. It usally means that even high end levy troops, like alpine short swords, will be far more ineffective against any kind of shield wall troop than they otherwise would be. This is one reason I switched to Alex.

Night battle, shieltrom and other such things tend to be bonuses without any drawbacks.

Unfortunately, the warcry and berzerk attributes require a LOT of work. Warcry can often be a detriment, since it takes a few seconds for barb factions, which seems bad.

Berzerk is NOT built for EB At all. Just adding berzerk to a unit will cause it to spin around stupidly and get killed very quickly. I wouldn't use it. I took it out pretty quick.

[Maion Maroneios]

OK, that's why I would like your ideas. So berzerk should be erased... As for making factions re-emergent, it is possible.

I had the idea of making the Pahlava re-emergent through Arche Seleukeia rebellion (which tends to happen in the eastern regions), as well as the Saka Rauka through Baktrian rebellion. This is mostly to make sure those factions actually come to destroy the ones they are attached to. Like the Pahlava fighting against the AS and the Saka against the Baktrians, like they historically did.

Another idea I had, is adding the hording ability for several factions. I am actually pretty sure I'm gonna make the Sweboz and Sauromatae hording factions. For others I seek your guidance. I have managed to make this possible with the Sweboz, but the faction symbols beame the original BI one's and the option of abandoning a settlement and becoming a horde is still unavailable...

[Maion Maroneios]

Guys, I need your help in some things;

1) Which factions to become hording ones
2) What horde units there should be in each of the factions you want (6 in total for each faction)
3) Factions you wish to be re-emergent

I have already done some stuff, for example I made the Arverni and Aedui shadow each other, like the Eastern and Western Empire rebels in BI. This means that, whenever a settlement of either of those two factions rebels, it goes over to the other. Also, if one of the two is destroyed and a settlement of the one alive rebels, the dead faction will be resurrected. This also means I will probably enable the loyalty system for the Gallic factions:yes:

Another thing I am thinking of doing, is to do more or less the same with other factions. Any ideas on this as well?

[Hax]

1) Which factions to become hording ones
2) What horde units there should be in each of the factions you want (6 in total for each faction)
3) Factions you wish to be re-emergent

1) Sweboz, Saka-Rauka, Sauromatae, Pahlava.

2) I'll get back to this.

3) A good candidate would be the Koinon Hellenon for this.

Also, I'd be very happy to help with modding the stuff, so if you need any help you can give me a call. Or something.

[Maion Maroneios]

Good to see someone is actually interested to help me! I have already made the Sweboz become a horde faction, so it should be no problem to do the same with the others you proposed.

Koinon Hellenon could become re-emergent through a hard-coded event, like the Romano-British for example. I think this needs a lot of work and testing, but nothing is impossible they say:smile:

What would you also say about having the Saka shadow the Baktrians and Pahlava shadow the Seleukidai? This way, through rebeling those mentioned factions can become re-emergent and make sure they press against their enemies.

[konny]

2) Add shield_wall, schiltrom formations for specific units (semi-done)

I think shield wall would be good for Hoplites, Iphikratians and other semi-phalanx units. Needs testing, of course.


3) Add the can_swim, warcry and can_horde attributes for specific units (semi-done)

Swimming would be for unarmoured units. Horde units are clones of the existing units, but these always require a unit slot. There are some left, but not very much.

Warcry would be very much available for most Barbarian units (but the others might have such kinds of encouragements too). The only candidate for berserc I can think of are the Gaesatae.


4) Implement the religion system for EB (not done)

That's a couple of work. It was discussed in another thread. With three "religions" I would go for:
- Greek-Roman
- Western (including Dacia)
- Eastern (including Saba and Carthage)

Invasio Barbarorum has more than three religions ASFAIK. It would also require a lot of rework on the trait file and EDB.


7) Add night battles (not done)

I think the repective traits are still in the EB trait file and re just commented out.


3) Factions you wish to be re-emergent

The Successor factions might all shadow each other. I would not make Parthia or other non-Hellenic factions shadow one of these. Unfortuantly there are no faction slots left to make counterfactions. The only candidate for deletion would be Bactria by handing her province to AS and make them a counterfaction of AS (the greys will certainly lose lands in the East by rebellion very fast).

The Ptolemaioi usually have rebellions in their Southern provinces. Nevertheless these Satraps can as well declare for the Seleucid king and become grey provinces. Currently these lands go over to Saba, who do not make much out of the situation.

Makedonia and Epeiros do not suffer much from rebellion, but if they should shadow each other.

I would also keep an eye on sharing MICs to make the rebels really effective.

[Maion Maroneios]

Interesting idea, Konny! I would appreciate it if someone could post a list with shieldwall, swimming and warcry unit candidates. That way I can make my comparisons with my own idea and make a conclusion.

As for hording units, they're not clones of pre-existing units. You just add the can_horde ability to a unit, add it to the descr_sm_factions.txt and upon hording on the campaign you get the unit with 0 mani upkeep cost (untill you settle down, that is).

I have managed to enable hording, as I said before, but by enabling the bi features in the descr_strat.txt the faction destroyed pictures stop working for some reason. I've enabled night battles as well.

As for the shadowing factions, it unfortunately doesn't work as intended. You see, a shadowing faction cannot survive without the faction it shadows. So if you play as the Aedui and destroy the Arverni, you get a CTD. So the shadowing thing will probably be erased...

I will try and make the KH re-emergent, through rebellions. You see, when the KH are alive and a Hellenic city like Syrakousai rebels from a faction, it automatically goes over to them. I am curious if that will still work if the are destroyed, provided that I add the re_emergent ability in the descr_strat.txt. If this works, I can probably do the same with other factions as well. Actually, that would be the ideal solution, me thinks:yes:

For the religions system, I have a very helpful guide that will allow me to implement the system step-by-step. I would appreciate it if someone would be willin to help, but giving me ideas as to what kind of ''religions'' I should include, like Konny did, would also be very helpful.

Thank you all again for your help!

[konny]

I have managed to enable hording, as I said before, but by enabling the bi features in the descr_strat.txt the faction destroyed pictures stop working for some reason.

Yes, that's a known bug. I remember that there was a workaround posted somewhere.


As for the shadowing factions, it unfortunately doesn't work as intended. You see, a shadowing faction cannot survive without the faction it shadows. So if you play as the Aedui and destroy the Arverni, you get a CTD. So the shadowing thing will probably be erased...

Yes, I had seen that in the scriptorium too (but only after posting here). Looks like you need a seperate non-playable faction for this thing.

[Lysimachos]

Isn't the warcry a vanilla feature? So it probably is out intentionally (realism purposes?).

[Maion Maroneios]

Maybe, but I will probably test it. I will add a link to my 1st post when all the things are done, as well as tested. Whoever wants to help with the testing, can give me a mp or iform me through this topic and I will send him the link.

[Olaf The Great]

Don't forget the possibility of having a "mirror" faction, which if one factions cities rebels it goes to that faction, thus having the possibility to have twice the amount of factions, that can also re-emerge.

Now of course that would be -alot- of work, but if you want to tackle it...

Either way I am waiting for this.


EDIT:Didn't read thread :P

[Maion Maroneios]

Hmmm, is there really a possibility to have irror faction in-game? That would be great, this way the loyalty feature can be anabled and factions like the Arche Seleukeia, Makedonia, Romani, Pahlava, Aedui, Arverni, Koinon Hellenon and Ptolemaioi can actually have rebels that represent various historical rebellions, as well as civil wars. Coud you please tell me how this can be done or at least give me a clue? I tried this for the Koinon Hellenon, but I don't really know which files to edit and such...

Thank you again for your interest!

[Jurdagat]

Mirror factions take up already used factions slots, as far as I know. :)

[Maion Maroneios]

That's what I mean, so no new or ''mirror'' factions. I'm also in deep thought about implementing the religion system, as it will probably need too much work and I just don't have enough time saddly... I will focus on units and hording factions, though.

[Barae]

which factions are you going to make be able to horde? (sry for bad english :shame: )

also one thing I find that shield wall normally makes its units to overpowering :skull:

anyways good luck with this project

[Victor1234]

As I've posted on the TWC forums, I'm eagerly awaiting this mod, but in the meantime....

Perhaps you could check out the work done by this mod to reduce your workload or to get ideas?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1946858#post1946858

Good luck with your project!

[Maion Maroneios]

Thank you Victor, though I've already managed to add night battles and make EB playable with bi.exe. Anyways, as for hording factions it will be Sweboz, Sauromatae and Saka Rauka. I'm open to other suggestions though, like maybe Getai for example. I would also appreciate it if someone could propose me 6 hording units for each hording faction.

Thank you all again for your interest!

[Pode]

I would also appreciate it if someone could propose me 6 hording units for each hording faction.

Unless someone comes forward with a more knowledge-based answer for the specific factions, I'd just take the first 6 units for each faction listed in the EDB. I.e. the ones buildable at the lowest level native MICs. My rationale for this is that a horde is the entire civilization on the move. The bulk of the population will have some profession other than soldiering, so when they fight they should be represented by the lowest quality militia type units available to the faction.

[Maion Maroneios]

Finished with the hording factions, which include the Sweboz, Sauromatae, Saka Rauka and Getai. All where tested just fine. Now working on unit attributes and formations, next is night battles (again, as I had re-installed EB after some CTD problems) and finally some shieldwall testing with units like the Iphicrateans and Dacian Phalanxes. I think it won't take long untill I release this, maybe a couple of days.

[Havok.]

Will be any difference apart from night battles and the other BI features from the EB

and which EB features you'll change?

[Maion Maroneios]

Apart from night battles, it features hording factions (Sauromatae, Getai, Saka Rauka and Sweboz), the shieldwall and schiltrom formations as well as swimming and warcry abilities for many units. All will be presented in a list which I shall post here as soon as this mini-mod is released. As for the rest, it's pretty much just the same.

[Celtic_Punk]

do NOT add the Shiltron, it was only invented by Robert The Bruce during his resistance of the filthy English.

and to whomever said the shiltron has no drawbacks- The shiltron is verrrry susceptible to missile fire (particularly arrows) and can be devastated.:surrender2:


the shieldwall i believe (i am probably mistaken) a very ancient tactic like the phalanx, but if your looking for historical accuracy only Norse-like units should have them. and the shiltron should not be implemented at all(or only the Gaels should have it.)

The shiltron requires the spearman to use two hands to hold the spear in place and to lock the spear in the ground with his foot on the nonpointy end. doing so makes it impossible to hold a shield let alone catch arrows with one.

[Havok.]

I suggest asking in the main forum for schiltron historical availibity to see if can be added, since, i'm looking foward to this mod, but if there's ahistoricy on it, i'd rather stick with the lame rtw.exe :embarassed:

and Maion, any mini-mods on it? like AI formations or alike?

[Barae]

Apparently the persians also used a shiekd wall to protect their archers.

I think it would be a good Idea to give shieldwall to the parthian spearmen and the Hai ones ( or at least the parthian ones as they were supposed to be a copy of the old Aechmid spearmen which did use the shield wall)

also that is where the false information from some historians comes from that the persians chained themselves together (just an invetion of literature, the chaining :grin3: )

[Havok.]

I think it would be a good Idea to give shieldwall to the parthian spearmen and the Hai ones (or at least the parthian ones as they were supposed to be a copy of the old Aechmid spearmen which did use the shield wall)

And shield wall for Hai spearman will mean a better chance of survival against the White, spamming, endless phalanxes of AS :bounce:

[Celtic_Punk]

how is this coming along?

[Maion Maroneios]

Guys, I figured out some time ago that there is another mini-mod like this, only without the hording feature. I will change this to a Makedonia-based mini-mod, with every mentioned changes except night battles, swimming ability and schiltrom formations.