Eurasia Barbarorum

[spqr_arcani]

I'm sure this has occurred to someone before.

In the current EB 1.1 I hear that you get glimpses as far east
as the Yuezhi. So, the obvious follow-up is, will EB team be
looking into East Asia eventually? It would be just totally awesome
to have a grand macro view of the world in the 273 BC - 14 AD (or whenever
EB ends) era.

Over the span of time of Scipio, Marian, and Caesar, you have
present-day China existing as 7 warring states.
And around 220 BC, you have China's first emperor unifying it, with
the Hans eventually taking over in 206BC. I'm sure EB scholars can
dig up a whole bunch more about culture and warfare of the Eastern
cultures than an average Joe can with wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_states

It is obvious that there currently are limitations with the RTW engine,
and even PC memory/processing capacities. Not to mention the current scope of
the EB plan and vision.

I'm talking about maybe 3-5 years down the line?
Maybe EB 3.0??

Can't a man dream? :beam:

[QuintusSertorius]

I remember reading somewhere that one of the secrets of the Qin's success was the ability to work bronze better than anyone else, and their bronze weapons were actually as robust as iron ones.

[spqr_arcani]

And there must be other nomadic tribes too, on top
of the Warring States I linked and the Yuezhi that are already
in EB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Confederation_under_Modu

Sorry I keep linking to Wikipedia.
Don't mean to be disrespectul to scholars here.

[Megas Methuselah]

I'm talking about maybe 3-5 years down the line?
Maybe EB 3.0??

I think 3-5 years is still within the timeframe of EB 2.0.
:laugh4:

[chairman]

SPQR_Arcani: there are a few irritating issues with what you suggest; irritating not because of you, but because it's impossible and we all feel the pain. Firstly, there are the hardcoded limits: from my own propositions to the team and their responses, I have figured that adding China and the area in between would require around 100 new province slots, 15 new faction slots and maybe up to 200 new unit slots, which unfortunately don't exist. The second is that if the team did have these new limits at their disposal, they would first use them for enhancing the area already occupied by EB and EBII before moving on to new regions. Thirdly, the EB team has a focus in the ancient and classical Mediterranean, not in other time periods or regions. In order to make the new areas as accurate as the existing area, the team would need to add up to 20 or 30% more members whose focus is on East Asia. That is a huge increase that would dilute the current make-up of the team and forcing a major re-focus of the team's time and energy.

However, I understand what you mean. We would all love to be able to command Roman and Chinese armies in battle and settle once and for all who were the better conquerors (though I don't doubt that you would soon have “Crossbowmen Overpowered” or “Chinese Cavalry Underpowered *&(*&#”!!111!!!” threads pop up very quickly). Maybe if E:TW adds more province, faction and unit slots (we know they have added faction slots but we're not sure if all can be playable) and if the EB Team mass recruits historians, modelers and concept guys who know about East Asia ... maybe then. Do keep in mind though, that before China, the EB team has unfinished business with India first.

Chairman

[spqr_arcani]

from my own propositions to the team and their responses, I have figured that adding China and the area in between would require around 100 new province slots, 15 new faction slots and maybe up to 200 new unit slots, which unfortunately don't exist.

It's cool you guys actually looked into this and considered its feasibility.
As I mentioned in my original post, there are a bunch of limitations and
this East Asia thing is a distraction from EB's current focus/vision. But
then again, didn't EB start out trying to rectify the historical accuracy of
barbarian units in Vanilla RTW? (or something like that?) :beam:

Seriously, I was thinking the same ballpark for the number of faction slots
(if you include the minor warring kingdoms). I was surprised at the
sheer number of additional units, though. But it was a pleasant surprise.

Anyway, it's a fantasy of mine for now. Definitely first things first.
In the future when there are better TW engines with less hardcoded limitations, and faster machines, this shouldn't be a stretch of imagination.
For now, I'll take whatever updates come from the EB team. That includes
India if it's in the works!

[Chaotix]

arcani, you might also want to check out Asia ton Barbaron, a mod for EB being made (not done yet) by Malik of Sindh and Admetos, among many others. It doesn't unfortunately have China, but the map stretches from Macedonia to India.

[Ludens]

I'd love to see a mod accurately depicting China in this era, but I don't think this would be compatible with EB. I think that, with 2 exceptions, that was no military contact between EB's world and China during the mod's time-frame, and for good reason. The geographical barriers between the two worlds are formidable to anyone who is not a steppe nomad. You can't get an army over the Himalayas with classical logistics, and going over the steppe would be courting disaster. As such, a realism mod like EB could never feature a campaign in which China and Rome (or Bactria, or Parthia, or whatever) would get to duke it out which each other.

[Megas Methuselah]

Thanks for the info, Ludens. Judging from your statement, wouldn't going by ship then be more plausible? Just curious.

[Ludens]

I don't know much of seafaring in the Indian and Pacific oceans during the Classical age, however if they were using Classical Mediterranean naval technology I think the expedition would be doomed beforehand. First of all there is logistics again: Greek and Roman ships carried many rowers because their sailing techniques weren't as sophisticated as they would become during the age of exploration. As a result, they needed to dedicate much storage space to supplies if they wanted to sail (row) for long periods with resupplying. Unfortunately, in our hypothetical invasion they would have had to use this storage space for soldiers, horses, siege equipment, etc. Of course, there would be specific supply ships, but the crews of these ships would have to be fed as well. Also, the more ships you use, the bigger the harbour and storage facilities needed to assemble the invasion. Logistical problems grow exponentially as distance increases. Basically, the army would have to rely on foraging and trade while under way, which is not very efficient nor conductive to a quick voyage or likely to improve relations with the locals.

Secondly, the ships themselves weren't that seaworthy. Triremes and similar designs are good enough for the Mediterranean, but if they can survive the euphemistically named Pacific Ocean, I have my doubts.

However, presuming they somehow manage to overcome both logistical problems and the weather, upon arrival they would have been completely cut off from their homeland. They would have only a vague idea of the area where they are going, and it's political situation, and would be unable to communicate with the homeland. Chances of reinforcements are slim to none, and given the supply problems I doubt they could have returned home even if they wanted to.

[Jolt]

I don't know much of seafaring in the Indian and Pacific oceans during the Classical age, however if they were using Classical Mediterranean naval technology I think the expedition would be doomed beforehand. First of all there is logistics again: Greek and Roman ships carried many rowers because their sailing techniques weren't as sophisticated as they would become during the age of exploration. As a result, they needed to dedicate much storage space to supplies if they wanted to sail (row) for long periods with resupplying. Unfortunately, in our hypothetical invasion they would have had to use this storage space for soldiers, horses, siege equipment, etc. Of course, there would be specific supply ships, but the crews of these ships would have to be fed as well. Also, the more ships you use, the bigger the harbour and storage facilities needed to assemble the invasion. Logistical problems grow exponentially as distance increases. Basically, the army would have to rely on foraging and trade while under way, which is not very efficient nor conductive to a quick voyage or likely to improve relations with the locals.

Secondly, the ships themselves weren't that seaworthy. Triremes and similar designs are good enough for the Mediterranean, but if they can survive the euphemistically named Pacific Ocean, I have my doubts.

However, presuming they somehow manage to overcome both logistical problems and the weather, upon arrival they would have been completely cut off from their homeland. They would have only a vague idea of the area where they are going, and it's political situation, and would be unable to communicate with the homeland. Chances of reinforcements are slim to none, and given the supply problems I doubt they could have returned home even if they wanted to.

But what if...Bartix was there to help them? Then all the problems would go away right? What if the Romans already had the nuclear bomb or did have a Legionary Clone Factory? Then they could attack China at ease.

>_> The problem is that there never has been (Up even until our days) an invasion force which would carry a full army from a distance between the Red Sea (Romans) or the Indus river (Bactria) up to Jiao Zhou, which is the southern-most region of the Han Empire (Though it is relevant to note Han control over Southern-most Modern China in 300/200 B.C. was very poor or dim, at best), is simply impossible, since neither the Romans nor the Bactrians had the knowledge the streams and currents of the Indian and Pacific Oceans up to China. They had no idea where to resupply and no place to dry their triremes (They needed to be carried off the water for protection again a wood worm), they had no clue where the land they wanted to invade was, they had no knowledge about the maritime terrain (Straits, Gulfs, etc) along the way, nothing to guide them (Except for some Parthian merchants that apparently reached as far as Tonkin Gulf in Vietnam), basically Naval invasion had 0% success of even reaching the destination. Nearchus had more than his share of dangers going from a mere distance that is the mouth of the Indus to the mouth of the Euphrates, how much more would a voyage that is like, 30 times the distance of the latter.

The other way is through land, and there were two paths.

1- One way would be through India. Historically, Rome eastern-most lands by 200 B.C. was Epirus, and overtime, it couldn't even beat Parthia, how much more the Mauryan which formed up during the time. Bactria managed to achieve some success, given their position already close to India, but never even got close to reaching even the Ganges Delta. After India, whoever conquered India, had to cross through the Indonesian Jungles, fighting it's tribes/kingdoms (Pyo, Thai and Dian Tribes), and from there either North through the mountainous and inhospitable terrain of Sichuan, where they'd have to face the nomadic Di Tribes (Tibetans nomads), before reaching Yi Zhou (Using Han's Country Subdivision terms), Shu region for Three Kingdom fans; or keep going through East through the Indochinese Jungle, where they'd reach the Southern-most region controlled by the Han Empire, Jiao Zhou (Though scarcely populated). From, they'd have to keep going North until they either reached Jing Nan (Southern Jing), where they'd hit the bulk of the Chinese southern cities. That meant a bloody and impossible conquest for any of the depicted factions in EB.

2- Go through the Nomadic steppes, which was impossible for any regular army, due to the fact that it was there that any Nomadic Army was able to maximize their art of war. Despite the fact of having to pass through Saka's, Wu Sun's, Yue Zhi's, Qiang's and Xiong Nu's, first reaching the Qin Warring State itself, which would be bigger or smaller depending on the date of arrival. Kicking the ass of a handful of Steppe Tribes in their own territory is impossible in historical terms.

Going through the Himalayas is simply impossible.

So basically, we're left with 0% chance of actually managing to invade China from the West. And such, I suppose China could be left quite alone, without any Roman interference.

[Irishmafia2020]

It would be better to hope to see some kind of East Asian campaign in the same period. Still, Rome 2 is likely to come out someday, and the hard coded limits on that will be substantially different...

[satalexton]

I'd say, rather than trying to add the eurasia continent into EB, simply make a spin-off mod instead using similar resources from EB (like the Baktrians and Saka, or even the YueZhi)

I recall there's a Three Kingdoms Total War mod and a spin off warring states mod somewhere made by a bunch of chinese RTW fans already. Although u may find a lot of ripped models from Dynasty Warriors, and their historical accuracy is dubious at best (I believe they're following the novel rather than the historical text). I'm sure it will be a good taster until a team can be cobbled together.

I personally quite like the idea of a historically accurate mod in the same spirit of EB based in China during the same period. Frankly, I'm quite sick of the stupid straw hat and pigtail stereotype (*cough* AOE3...they messed things up so badly i wanted to cry lol) and would like to see some crossbowmen fire bolts into the flesh of steppe raiders xD

If you really want to start a mod as such, I willing to provide what aid I can (providing my RL doesn't kill me first...). I can look up historical texts and provide sources, but don't expect me to translate entire classical chinese texts.

...Or you can always drink half a crate of beer and play China: total war in dreamland =P