semi-n00b tactical primer

[MajorFreak]

If you've never played before, there's a few things you need to know about tactical combat in this game:
FORMATIONS: there's tight/loose/wedge;
TACTICS: there's retreat/hold/engage;
Say you're defending and you have a mixed bag of troop types. First thing you must realize there's a rock/papper/scissors approach to combatSpearmen are the rock (they'll usually be set up in loose/hold formation 4/5 ranks deep per unit to absorb any archer fire and to protect your own archers set up behind themArchers are the paper (they'll usually be set up in tight/engage formation with 3 ranks deep per unit in such a way as to match the width of your spearmen)Cavalry are the scissors (they'll usually be set up in wedge/engage formation behind and to the flanks so they can scoot around to the rear of the enemy -- penalty to enemy if you have flanked them)[/list]The archers are kinda lousy at hitting moving targets, and that's where crossbowmen come into their own. crossbow bolts fire more horizontally...though for pure rate of fire (they all have same ammo limits) i'd go with british longbowmen if you see them as mercenariesOnce your spearmen get charged, set them to tight/hold formation...and once the enemy breaks, set them to tight/engage so they can pursuit betterYou'll usually be able to flank the enemy with cavalry to bushwack those enemy archers and thus be in a position to engage routing troops (though you'll want tight/engage once you start your pursuit modeIf you have swordsmen or axemen, they're best used as close flankers set in tight/engage beware of charging units too soon, as they get penalties for getting tired...plus cavalry have a tendency to break into a spontaneous charge anyways once close enoughWoods are great if you're facing lots of cavalry/archers...keep everyone in loose/engage formationhills are great tooWedge is a difficult thing to master since the only way to effectively use it is to order a "run" command just beyond the enemy unit you're charging...that way they'll not stop dead the second the first horse hits the unitNot to mention you'll want to disengage and retreat a bit to charge all over again. Very tricky, but majorly worth the effortthough you'll usually target enemy archers who have a habit of running like VIPPED DOGS anyways. Once they do that get into tight/engage formation and run them down. (nice way to get valour points for cav)please critique this, thanks.

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[Jaret]

Nice Basics !

I usualy set my archers up in front of my Spearmen. When the enemy closes in the Spearmen step through the line of Archers to protect them.
Pavise Arbalester make a pefect first line because of their great range and their great missile defense.
As English try :
4 Units of Pavise Arbalesters - 1st. Row
4 Units of Longbowmen - 2nd. Row
4 Units of Pikemen - 3rd. Row
4 Units of Shock/Cavelerie - Flank/ 4th. Row

The Arbalesters with their low rate of fire begin to fire on the Enemy, beeing well protected vs. enemy return missile fire.
As the Enemy closes in on your position, the Longbowmen join your Arbalesters with a greater rate of fire. When the enemy comes to close to your Archers/Arbalesters have th Pikemen charge through your line of Archers to face the enemy. 2 units of Swordsmen to flank the enemy. 2 Units of light Cavelery to chase the routing enemy to his death.

[anymapkoku]

You got it all wrong major.

[Grifman]

Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
You got it all wrong major.[/QUOTE]

Well, that's an informative, incisive post . . .

Grifman

[Kalt]

Yeah, Major, I don't think that is the best way to go about it.

Usually you should set up your ranged units up front, far enough that enemy archers wont approach close enough to target your spearmen but not so far that your archers can't rush back to your spearmen if cavalry charge them. Archers can be 2-3 ranks deep, set up in loose or closed: I don't think it makes MUCH of a difference. Spears should always be in closed formation with rare exception. Cavalry should flank, probably using wedge but you don't have to, only once the enemy has committed its units to engaging your spears and has NO spare units available to counter you. If you charge them in the rear and they have a spare unit, they can charge your flanker in the rear and might just chain-route you. Of course maybe if you think you can route them first you'll risk it......

a. archers do great in SP, just target masses/clusters of AI troops, or cavalry, or 100-man units with low armor.
b. don't pursue. hold your line and hold the high ground. then the enemy rallies and returns, they'll be exhausted while your troops have had a chance to rest. if they return piecemeal, your solid line will probably send them running in fear the moment they make contact.
c. you can use your cavalry to rout their archers OR hit the rear of their melee line. most of the time it is better to hit their melee line in the back and rout it first.
d. if the patch makes swords better versus spears, theyll be able to do more. Use axe troops to hit whatever has the most armor.
e. charge/run whenever time is a factor, early and tired is always better than fresh and late.
f. if you have alot of spears, screw the woods and CHARGE.
g. only when you're the one on top of them.

1. It works alright when you charge into the flank/rear and you shouldnt use wedge too often frontally.
2. I never disengage/re-charge. you incur morale penalties if you click alot to disengage, your unit is vulnerable while its pulling out, it takes your personal attention (which might be needed elsewhere), and your unit will win faster if it stays and fights instead of pulling out/recharging.
3. For killing routers I usually run PAST them, stretch into a long 1-2 rank deep line, then trample over them head-on. with a few units doing this you can make a 'wall of death' that sweeps everyone up.

[MajorFreak]

thanks folks!

[This message has been edited by MajorFreak (edited 10-05-2002).]

[insolent1]

Even better is to forget about archers as soon as u can get arbalests. I use 3 of these with 4 feudal sergeants & some cav.
Stick the arbalests in front of spear & watch the killz role in. Once the arbalests are good in big defensive battles the arbalests get 170+ killz each & their ammo will last for a good bit of teh battle with auto fire off. Sometimes I use more depends on how cruel. I always use 3 on attack especially when facing big armies. You can use the arbalests to target his reinforcements as they come on, 3 of them firing at same time does an awful lot of damage to any unit

[Arcsim]

You sound like you think most infantry should be spears. In MP at least most of my army is made up of sword/axe troops. I only use spearmen for defending against enemy calvalry. It's always amusing to watch a bunch of AUM/Ghazi demolish a crapload of order foot, and then have muwahid demolish the enemy knights.

[PTT]

Archers in engage? Won't they get slaughtered?

Please explain to this chimpanzee level tactician exactly why....

[Cyricist]

Archers are default set to skirmish.. which means, and you may have noticed this, they pull back if the enemy come too close. The risk you run when putting them up front (preferably in front of some good defensive troops) is that if they start running too late, cavalry will have a field day. But putting them up front ALSO means (and this goes for more than two units) they can fire at the first enemy unit that comes in range (I took out A LOT of feudal knights with just 3 archer units and the remainder RAN). I like to combine the spearthrowers with archer and crossbow units.. It's all in the mix! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[PTT]

Cyricist, I got that, which is why I was wondering why "engage" is the preferred setting. Personally, I tend to put them on loose/skirmish so that they don't get shot up and they run from the enemy charging. If I see cavalry coming I just move them behind my decent defensive troops (spearmen), since foot missile troops tend to outreach any form of mounted archer.

So why set the archers to tight/engage?

The monkey awaits an answer...

[hrvojej]

I still don't get what is the advantage of putting the missiles in front of spears. As far as the range goes, it's only a one unit depth that's the difference, and enemy missles don't do much to you spears, since the spears mostly have shields and high armour. If you put them behind the spears, you can relax and shoot at your will, while losing only a couple of spears, while if you're meddling with all that replace rows/fall back things, you're running a nice chance of everything going to hell only so that you could shoot one volley more (and you would get that volley anyway during the time it takes you to march them back behind your spears). And the enemy is usually hesitant to engage the spears, while they'll happily charge your archers. Therefore, you actually get more out of your missiles, since the fight won't start immediately, and you'll lose less spears this way since you'll be able to decimate the enemy ranks (while putting up with enemy fire may cost you 10-15 spears, engaging full strenght units will probably cost you alot more).
Anybody cares to explain?

edit: You will get a better control oover your missiles if they are on engage/hold. On skirmish they might fall back when you don't want them to in a direction where you don't want them to go. This way, you can order when to move and where. Imho, skirmish is only good for (fast) horse archers, and I sometimes use it with desert archers. But then again, I tend use very closed formations on defense as well (see above).

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-05-2002).]

[Cyricist]

Do you want to control damage or do you want to make your enemy RUN? That is the question here.. I sometimes put my spears up front, but only when outnumbered and threatened by cavalry. I prefer setting my archers up so they can fall back through loose set spearmen, who close ranks when the archers have pulled back about halfway.. it works nicely and keeps cav from getting near my archers en get NEAR my spears who immediately pummel them.. Taking some losses, sure.. but the archers took out a great deal of the attacking units first, so the pounding of the attacker is less effective. Also, when my front archers get shot at, I usually do 1 of 2 things: 1: move my reserve array of spearmen forward and maul them if possible, but get them enemy archers moving instead of fighting effectively or 2: I run them down from the flanks with cavalry.. though this is risky if he can get other (spear) infantry near the archers quick enough..

[hrvojej]

They run alright with your misslies behind your spears as well. But they also tend to attack your archers, while they won't attack your spears, so you can get more out of your misslies. And, as I said, you can do the exact same thing with your archers in the second row, and still avoid all the fuss about falling back. And even get that one extra volley for the time it would take you to pull them back behind the spears.

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-05-2002).]

[Yoko Kono]

but with the archers behind the spears they have reduced accuracy and also a wily opponent will simply shoot the spears down while your achers sit back out of range

[hrvojej]

Reduced accuracy? I haven't noticed this at all...... Reduced how?
And they won't shoot them down, since they have high armour and shields. Meanwhile, your archers can just relax and shoot their hearts out. Furthermore, the enemy troops won't be out of range, since they will close in enough for you to shoot them, if not the archers, than the rest of the troops. And most of your troops will live to fight another day, with you getting a beautiful kill ratio.

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-05-2002).]

[Hosakawa Tito]

I put my archers in front of my spear units when defending on the high ground, loose formation in two rows, hold formation, so that they have a clear line of sight to their targets, which helps them shoot more accurately. Notice that if your archers have to arc the shot over friendly troops in front of them and their target is advancing toward you, many of the arrows hit the back part of the target unit. Sometimes you will even kill more in a unit that is behind your intended target. Also notice that on flat terrain your archers are not as accurate for the same reason, the arrows seem to arc over the intended target especially if they are moving toward you. Fast units like cav can literally charge right under the arrows. Archers are much more effective on the high ground, terrain permitting of course, and with a clear sight line. I will charge my spears through the loose formation of archers when they are threatened by the enemy, and the archers hold their ground and keep firing. You may lose a few more archers that way, but they are pretty cheap and the constant fire will break the enemy formations that much quicker. Putting you spears in front of your crossbow units will incur a lot of friendly fire casualties, as they cannot arc their shots at all. If the hill you are set up on is steep enough, this won't be too much of a problem. However, if the terrain isn't right for that tactic then I prefer to use a crossbow unit on each wing.
When the enemy approaches close to my front I'll take a crossbow unit on each wing and extend them out vertically to catch the enemy in a U shaped cross fire, archers at the base and crossbows at the sides. I protect the crossbows with spear and cav, with my swordmen/axemen ready to charge the enemy flanks. After a few withering volleys it shouldn't take long for the enemy advance to breakup. Hold you ground, let them run, reform, advance, then repeat till I'm out of ammo. Unless I'm outnumbered better than 3-1,
I usually have ammo left over for my crossbows/arbalesters anyway.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[This message has been edited by Hosakawa Tito (edited 10-05-2002).]

[hrvojej]

Hmmm, never noticed the thing about the arcs and accuracy. Never thought of it either. I know that crossbows have a flat trajectory, but I thought that the arcs were pretty much fixed for each unit type. Still, my friendly fire casualties are usually less than 10 even in long battles. That's why I'm using the misslies-behind-spears tactic even when on flat ground, and it has been a very effective one so far. However, I think I'll try the reverse to see whether I can get more kills that way.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Try looking closely at the flight of arrows and see where the majority seem to hit. I see most of the arrows hitting the back half of the target enemy formation, on flat terrain this is even more pronounced, and if the enemy is advancing quickly more so yet. Crossbow units don't have this problem, as you have observed. I think that is why arbalesters are one of the deadliest missile units in the game, honor and valour being equal. I watch volleys of arbalesters, when they are fresh, that mow down 5-10 enemy per volley. Right click on the missile units that are firing, and then left click on "follow projectiles" in the pop up window. Any crossbow bolts that miss, miss between the gaps in the ranks of the target. When arrows miss, they usually miss by sailing over the target.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[hrvojej]

Hosakawa Tito,
What I meant was that I have not noticed/am unaware of the fact that they have different arcs with clear line of sight when opposed to them being behind the line of friendly spears. I am aware that the bows hit the trailing end of the unit, that's why I usually use them to target units that are standing, or closely bunched groups, or, as you said, target the unit in front of the one that I actually want to hit, and crossbows being more reliable due to their flat trajectories.
Nevertheless, now I'm really interested to see and test whether the archers do use different arcs to minimize friendly fire than they do when they have a clear line of sight, or, in other words, use different arcs when they have obstacles in front of them or not, with different arcs having various effectiveness. Thanks for the idea http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-05-2002).]

[Hosakawa Tito]

I think the Longbowmen should be more accurate than they are, especially with higher honor/valour. They should be able to lead their targets better. I try to use them the same way you do, standing targets or if I'm lucky, a unit that is trailing another. I can't seem to see much difference in the accuracy of say 0 honor to 4 honor archers. In fact on flat terrain especially, I prefer arbalesters. The archers perform better on high ground with a clear line of sight because I think they don't have quite as much arc on the shot, and probably because an advancing enemy unit moves slower going uphill. I do know that if you don't specifically click on an enemy target, your archers will shift to another target to avoid friendly fire. That is hard to do though, when you want to kill as many high power enemy units as you can, instead of wasting arrows on peasants.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[DragonCat]

My favorite tactic in multiplayer is to use Mounted Crossbowmen on Skirmish. I set them well ahead of my forces and let them skirmish their way back, at which point a charge the footmen through their ranks to engage the enemy. THEN, here is the beauty part, when my foe is all engaged along the line, I use the MTD XBOW to CHARGE their rear or flank where available. They NEVER expect this because they think of them as MISSLE units and not as CAVALRY units. I can't tell you how many men I have routed with this ruse. Most people NEVER catch on! They also become very effective harrassers of routed units, harrying them off the field with great effect. This way I get three uses out on this one glorious unit!

BTW - to cause Mounted Missle units to charge, you need to hold down the ALT key to get the sword icon. Then double click on the enemy unit you want to charge. . .

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DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!

[Don Megel]

Oooooh, so that explains it.

I usualy have a mixture of Xbows and Archers. I always put my Xbows behind the archers and all missle units behind my double lines of spears/Italian inf.

The tactic usualy works but I never thought I was shooting my own men in the back :-/

Good tips guys, thanks

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Praise the Lord for He is mighty and great!

[Cheetah]

Listed in the TC

[KILLAM]

Attacking-archers in front of spears (going up hill).

Defending-archers behind spears (going down hill).

On a hill you have the range advantage.

[cart6566]

I find either set up to be workable. If I have the high ground and a superior morale, I will just leave the arbs behind the spears set to auto-fire with the spears in hold. If I am attacking and facing held ranks, I will trot them out front with a shock troop flanker and exploit the weak point at which the AI charges them. For some reason, I find auto-fire to be much more effective than targetting when using arbs.

[This message has been edited by cart6566 (edited 10-23-2002).]