View Full Version : Are you a virgin?
InsaneApache
05-31-2008, 13:02
If not, don't get married in France.
The wedding night party was still under way at the family’s home in Roubaix when the groom came down from the bedroom complaining that his bride was not a virgin. He could not display the blood-stained sheet that is traditionally exhibited as proof of the bride’s “purity”.
Mr X went to court the following morning and was granted a annulment on the grounds that his bride had deceived him on “one of the essential elements” of the marriage.
Almost medieval. Until I read this load of bollox.
Rachida Dati, the Justice Minister, who has Moroccan and Tunisian parents. The law had, she said, protected the bride. “Annulling a marriage is a way of protecting the person who perhaps wants to undo a marriage. I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly. The law is there to protect vulnerable people,” Ms Dati said.
:wall:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4034908.ece
CountArach
05-31-2008, 13:23
From what I remember of sex-ed, it is possible for the cherry to pop, if you will, prior to sex if enough strain is put on it or through physical exertion (Such as some sports).
HoreTore
05-31-2008, 13:30
Anorexia and such can also make it pop.
Not to mention solo activity...
FactionHeir
05-31-2008, 13:40
According to the article it was less about not being a virgin and more about her lying to him.
She admitted the lie and supported anullment. So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.
Gregoshi
05-31-2008, 13:58
So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.
Whoever foot the bill for the wedding ought to be just slightly ticked off.
KukriKhan
05-31-2008, 15:09
Mrs. K suggests another possible alternative: perhaps Mister Groom simply had the endowment of a fruitfly. :)
RoadKill
05-31-2008, 15:16
Mrs. K suggests another possible alternative: perhaps Mister Groom simply had the endowment of a fruitfly. :)
:laugh4:
According to the article it was less about not being a virgin and more about her lying to him.
She admitted the lie and supported anullment. So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.
Agreed. Odd custom though the bleeding thing :dizzy2:
FactionHeir
05-31-2008, 15:25
Agreed. Odd custom though the bleeding thing :dizzy2:
I think many cultures across the globe had it at some point.
I wonder how he prooved that she was not virgin :) And how he knew what is difference beetwen virgin and no virgin :) Looks like he has double standards:)
HoreTore
05-31-2008, 16:38
I wonder how he prooved that she was not virgin :) And how he knew what is difference beetwen virgin and no virgin :) Looks like he has double standards:)
Uhm... The article stated that quite clearly... No blood on the sheets = no hymen, which is likely to mean(but doesn't have to) that she isn't a virgin...
And I'm not sure about you, but I knew what happens when a girl has sex for the first time quite a few years before I had sex myself...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
05-31-2008, 16:57
If her virginity was important to him, and she lied to him about it, there's no reason he should not be allowed an annulment.
LeftEyeNine
05-31-2008, 21:02
That one is still a widespread tradition in Turkey.
Although modernity is surely effecting lives, loosening such nonsense taboos, it does not prevent from someone killing his "fresh" wife and himself afterwards leaving a note written with a lipstick on the mirror "Mother and father. I love you so much. The girl was 'broken' ". That happened last week.
InsaneApache
05-31-2008, 21:46
Good grief.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
05-31-2008, 21:50
One of the comments at the bottom, I think, got it right:
You should get what is advertised. She advertised herself as a virgin. If A man promoted himself as being wealthy and then after the marriage he proclaims he is broke, then the woman would seek a divorce.
Crazed Rabbit
05-31-2008, 23:28
Unless France has a strict law against divorce without reason, I don't see the big deal. Here in the US it's not terribly difficult to get divorced.
I'm against that easy divorce thing, but if everyone can get divorced for a stupid reason, why not this petty idiot?
CR
PanzerJaeger
05-31-2008, 23:33
That one is still a widespread tradition in Turkey.
Although modernity is surely effecting lives, loosening such nonsense taboos, it does not prevent from someone killing his "fresh" wide and himself afterwards leaving a note written with a lipstick on the mirror "Mother and father. I love you so much. The girl was 'broken' ". That happened last week.
Sick.
I don't get the whole virgin thing. Yay for awkward, bloody sex! Sounds like a great wedding night to me. Save the silk sheets you got a the reception for later.. :yes:
Sick.
I don't get the whole virgin thing. Yay for awkward, bloody sex! Sounds like a great wedding night to me. Save the silk sheets you got a the reception for later.. :yes:
Yeah, I'd have to agree. I mean it's one thing if the girl has been around the block more than a few (liberal use) times, but virginity is overrated.
Louis VI the Fat
06-01-2008, 04:50
I think courts should allow divorce on any ground. If you want to divorce because your wife can't bake great pizza, then fine, divorce. If you want to divorce because clouds covered the full moon when Jupiter was in Taurus, then hey, it's a free country.
In complete conflict with the above, I also think that French courts should not let themselves be used for sanctification of obscurantist beliefs. We are touching on the usual problems of a multi-cultural society again. If France is to be a multi-cultural, instead of a multi-etnic, society, then this sort of practice should be allowed, and sanctified in court. Just like polygamy, or ritual slaughter of animals. :whip:
If instead immigrants are to become integrated parts of France's social fabric, then none of that should stand up in court.
In this particular case, this conflict was mostly evaded. The husband filed for divorce on the grounds that he was lied to, a lie which undermined the relationship. Not the virginity itself was the ground. Clever.
This story is also about North African Muslims, who have a mostly different set of social customs. But I shall not turn this into a Muslim bash fest.
If only for this personal aside: my grandmother had to marry dressed in black. She became pregnant by her then boyfriend. Abortion was a definite no-no. Maybe she would've ended up marrying him, maybe not. As it was though, they were pushed into a hastily arranged (better perhaps: forced) marriage, to save her / the family's honour. Because she was not a virgin, she had to wear all-black at her wedding. It was very painful for her, a life-long embarrasment. Double standards applied as well, nobody cared about the virginity of her husband.
This was the nature of French smalltown Catholic society shortly before WWII. And it still lingers on in places.
Of course, half of the people who scorned her for it, who gossiped about it for decades, weren't virgins themselves when they married. Bah. Bunch of Catholic hypocrites.
I looked for a picture of a non-virgin bride in black for you, but couldn't find one that's as nice as the one below. This one's of a widow. Widows, like non-virgins, married in black, like in this movie poster:
https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6282/noirjy7.jpg
ajaxfetish
06-01-2008, 16:35
I don't get the whole virgin thing. Yay for awkward, bloody sex! Sounds like a great wedding night to me.
While I get what you're saying, I don't see why a wedding night needs to be particularly suave. A first sexual experience is going to be awkward and bloody whether it happens as a curious teenager or a newlywed. Is that first experience something to be ashamed of and forgotten, or a memorable adventure?
Anyway, here's me looking forward to awkward, bloody sex this Wednesday. Yes, I'm a virgin, and no, I'm still not getting married in France. :france:
Ajax
Anyway, here's me looking forward to awkward, bloody sex this Wednesday. Yes, I'm a virgin, and no, I'm still not getting married in France. :france:
Ajax
Congratulaitions :2thumbsup:
I feel I should just point out that the guy filed for annulment, not divorce. Two separate concepts.
Divorce is the process you have to go through to end a legitimate marriage. AFAIK you don't have to give any reason at all to do it, simply stating "I don't want to be married to my wife anymore" is sufficient, but he would have to go through all the expense of hiring lawyers, dividing assets etc.
Annulment is different in that it is essentially a declaration by the courts that the marriage was not legitimate. My understanding is that if an annulment is granted, it is as though the marriage never existed. For this the person seeking the annulment should have to give some sort of reason why the marriage was not legitimate.
In my opinion the virginity or otherwise of the bride should not be sufficient grounds for annulment; the reason should have to be along the lines of one of the couple having being coerced into the marriage, or if there is evidence of physical abuse, for example. If he afterwards decides he is not happy with his wife, he can file for divorce for whatever frivolous reason he wants.
Oh, and congratulations ajaxfetish, I assume that's what you were implying :beam:
Of course, half of the people who scorned her for it, who gossiped about it for decades, weren't virgins themselves when they married. Bah. Bunch of Catholic hypocrites.
I remember my mother telling me about an interesting discovery she made when researching our family history. While searching through the parish records of births, marriages and deaths, she was struck by the fact that, more often than not, the birth of a couple's first child occurred a lot less than nine months after the wedding. Makes me suspect that the idea of sex before marriage is far from being a modern invention.
KukriKhan
06-01-2008, 18:19
LOL. My Grandmother used to say: "The first child comes anytime; all the rest take 9 months."
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-01-2008, 18:20
In my opinion the virginity or otherwise of the bride should not be sufficient grounds for annulment; the reason should have to be along the lines of one of the couple having being coerced into the marriage, or if there is evidence of physical abuse, for example. If he afterwards decides he is not happy with his wife, he can file for divorce for whatever frivolous reason he wants.
If virginity was an agreed upon condition, and not only was it not met, but the husband was lied to about it, an annulment should be granted.
I wasn't aware that you could set conditions for a marriage like that. Isn't that supposed to be the point of a pre-nup? So that you can set conditions under which you are entitled to a favourable divorce, not an annulment. If you could attach whatever strings you like to the marriage itself, with the condition that if your partner breaks your terms, the marriage is void, seems to me people wouldn't need them.
Unless maybe his argument was that since he himself had rendered the marriage void by attaching preconditions to it, he was entitled to an annulment.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-01-2008, 20:46
Well a pre-nup is about divorce not anullment. Irrc the failure of the man to consumate the marriage is also a valid reason for anullment, certainly it was not all that long ago. As to the bloody sheets thing, well it was pretty current in Europe 200 years ago at least. I rural areas I'm sure it's more recent.
Samurai Waki
06-01-2008, 21:03
Virgin sex really isn't that good. Not goin' to lie about that one, especially if both happen to be virgins, and plus the whole bloody sheet thing is really, really strange. I mean, I can see on a cultural basis the importance of purity, but I agree with Ice & co. that a little experience goes a long way, and not the village bicycle kind either. I'm glad I had a few encounters before I got married, it really made me realize that sex isn't just about sticking you're little friend into some random hole and having at it (unless you're really into modern sit on the couch and have it at porn) but it serves as validation as to how much you love that person and they love you.
and I still wouldn't want to get married in France.
Oh! Congrats Ajax btw.
What most likely is happening here is that the marriage was arranged and that this girl has no prospects at all and is more then likely to be in serious trouble. Can't be helped, it's the law and that should also apply on import but the comment of the minister of justice about the law being there for the vulnerable is completily out of place " I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly.".
Excuse me??
She is putting it all on this poor girl who probably had no choice whatsoever, as a minister of justice no less. Very wrong.
InsaneApache
06-02-2008, 01:53
Good grief.
ajaxfetish
06-02-2008, 05:48
Oh, and congratulations ajaxfetish, I assume that's what you were implying :beam:
Indeed. I posted an announcement here soon after our engagement, but it's been awhile now. I probably won't be posting much for the next week or so, but when I get a chance, I'll be sure to put up some wedding pics and whatnot. Thanks for all the well-wishes, folks (and sorry to divert the thread :shame:).
Ajax
LittleGrizzly
06-02-2008, 18:02
Grizz just thought you were having sex on wednesday (without the whle wedding thing) so congrats!
Kralizec
06-02-2008, 19:12
Congrats Ajax!
As for the topic at hand, :shrug:
She didn't oppose the annulment at all. What should the court have done instead?
Court could have done nothing else, but that minister of Justice should step down or shut up from now on because she failed to live the law and quite explicitily put all the responsibility on the shoulder of this girl.
Sharia = +1 :thumbsdown:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-02-2008, 21:45
Court could have done nothing else, but that minister of Justice should step down or shut up from now on because she failed to live the law and quite explicitily put all the responsibility on the shoulder of this girl.
The law did, in this case, keep the girl safe - if the annulment had been denied, would she have been the victim of an honour killing?
The thing is, though, that honour killing shouldn't happen in the first place, and should be dealt with ruthlessly, along with Muslim hate rapes. (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/07/norwegian-authorities-still-covering.html)
Devastatin Dave
06-02-2008, 23:04
According to the article it was less about not being a virgin and more about her lying to him.
She admitted the lie and supported anullment. So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.
Agreed, obviously this harlot must be stoned in the honorable traditions of this man's heritage.:yes:
Crazed Rabbit
06-03-2008, 04:00
The law did, in this case, keep the girl safe - if the annulment had been denied, would she have been the victim of an honour killing?
The thing is, though, that honour killing shouldn't happen in the first place, and should be dealt with ruthlessly, along with Muslim hate rapes. (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/07/norwegian-authorities-still-covering.html)
I'd rather be able to see a direct translation of the articles, as I don't trust GoV and the blogger who wrote that, seeing as they are both involved with racist & nationalist groups like the BNP and that Belgium party. Sadly, they gain some traction because it seems like the main parties aren't doing anything.
As for a solution that can prevent rape before it occurs; I present to you: Vermont. (http://www.gunowners.org/vtcarry.htm)
CR
The law did, in this case, keep the girl safe - if the annulment had been denied, would she have been the victim of an honour killing?
The thing is, though, that honour killing shouldn't happen in the first place, and should be dealt with ruthlessly, along with Muslim hate rapes. (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/07/norwegian-authorities-still-covering.html)
Honour-murder is a family thing, it's the girls family that got ' humiliated' not the husbands. Stupid word by the way, murder is murder, cultural sensitivities are no special circumstances.
The thing is, though, that honour killing shouldn't happen in the first place, and should be dealt with ruthlessly, along with Muslim hate rapes. (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/07/norwegian-authorities-still-covering.html)
Good to know that you are using reliable sources. :2thumbsup:
“Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. Norwegian women must realize that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”
This why I don't like progressives I simply don't want to live in an ultra-conservative society. Multicultists are odd, odd people.
Uesugi Kenshin
06-03-2008, 21:15
I'd rather be able to see a direct translation of the articles, as I don't trust GoV and the blogger who wrote that, seeing as they are both involved with racist & nationalist groups like the BNP and that Belgium party. Sadly, they gain some traction because it seems like the main parties aren't doing anything.
As for a solution that can prevent rape before it occurs; I present to you: Vermont. (http://www.gunowners.org/vtcarry.htm)
CR
CR I love to see my state offered as an example of relatively sane laws, but I don't think our laws would work everywhere. I think our concealed carry law is a fairly small part of why Vermont has low crime and murder rates though...The relatively low population densities (though the West certainly boasts lower densities), and relatively good education system may have something to do with it. I have to admit that other than knowing about the concealed-carry legislation I haven't done much research on this before now though.
It's been a long time since I took family law, but I'm almost positive that most states in the US allow marriage annulments for similar reasons. Annulments are generally permitted if one spouse has deceived the other about a fundamentally important aspect of the relationship or some aspect of their past history. Again, it's been a long time, but various sexual issues were definitely included as valid reasons. I'm not positive, but I suspect that most US states would permit an annulment if one spouse had lied about their virginity, and having a virgin spouse was very important to the other spouse.
I don't see much that's unusual in this French law. I suspect most European nations have similar ones, albeit with broader and less specific language, as with the US.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-03-2008, 21:51
@ Crazed Rabbit and Viking: The article has quite a few linking articles and sources, if you'd care to scroll down/read the article and see the links. ~:)
Honour-murder is a family thing, it's the girls family that got ' humiliated' not the husbands.
Well, I'm willing to bet the husband was "humiliated" in his own mind too.
Stupid word by the way, murder is murder, cultural sensitivities are no special circumstances.
For lack of a better phrase, damn straight. The penalties for this type of offense should be much harsher than they are.
@ Crazed Rabbit and Viking: The article has quite a few linking articles and sources, if you'd care to scroll down/read the article and see the links. ~:)
There's only one (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece)link that is not internal or that does not link to some other extremist site; and that one does not mention anything about "hate rape".
Don't know that newspaper but these numbers are pretty much in line with other country's. It is what it is and it's the same thing everywhere. If 14% of the population make up for 66% of the rapes there is obviously something going on in the comfortable bliss that is multiculti Norway.
Don't know that newspaper but these numbers are pretty much in line with other country's. It is what it is and it's the same thing everywhere. If 14% of the population make up for 66% of the rapes there is obviously something going on in the comfortable bliss that is multiculti Norway.
Bah, in multicultural Oslo. The rest of the country is fairly mono-cultural. Yeah me too is pondering over if not multiculturalism is a valid cause; or at least a cultural disrespect for women.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-04-2008, 19:46
I don't believe in multi-culturalism at all, actually. Why would you come to a country and try and make it like the one you left? Why should I let you change my country from somewhere I want to live into somewhere I don't?
I don't have answers to these questions.
LittleGrizzly
06-05-2008, 10:16
I don't believe in multi-culturalism at all, actually. Why would you come to a country and try and make it like the one you left?\
I don't think multi-culturalism means immigrants making the place like the one they left, its about them bringing thier culture with them, i don't now how many immigrants we have from warm sandy countries but this place isn't getting any warmer.... or sandier. Somewhat similar to when we had some Italian immigrants after the war and they setup coffee shops and the like, i would say that benefitted our culture, then indians setting up resturants and takeaways across the country, curry is our national dish did you now! its actually a british invented curry that is top Chicken Tikka Massala, that multiculturism in action right there...
A mix of cultures has brought us some of the best food and music we have today, why stop mixing cultures now ??
A mix of cultures has brought us some of the best food and music we have today, why stop mixing cultures now ??
Multi-ethnic fine, multicultural ideal no. Makes rich white people from 100% white neighbourhoods say odd things.
“Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. Norwegian women must realize that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”
^- things like that. Bring something, welcome. Demand something, bye.
LittleGrizzly
06-05-2008, 10:45
Multi-ethnic fine, multicultural ideal no.
What is a persons culture if not food and music ? (2 important parts i would say)
What are you actually saying though ? we just flat out stop immigration ? from everywhere or just a select few chosen by fraggony ?
Multi-ethnic fine, multicultural ideal no.
What is a persons culture if not food and music ? (2 important parts i would say)
What are you actually saying though ? we just flat out stop immigration ? from everywhere or just a select few chosen by fraggony ?
Full immigrationstop would be a start we can't feed the whole world. But what I am saying is that multiculturalists are like all other extremists that only respect their own silly ideals. Quote is perfect example the "a multiculture a multiculture my kingdom for a multiculture" mentality.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 11:06
Multi-ethnic fine, multicultural ideal no. Makes rich white people from 100% white neighbourhoods say odd things.
“Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. Norwegian women must realize that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”
^- things like that. Bring something, welcome. Demand something, bye.
Bah.
We have something like a couple of hundred thousand people in this country with a "non-western cultural background".
The number of rapists are like 30-40 people. To make any decisions for the large group based on the actions of a few dozen is utterly ridiculous.
If there were ten thousand of these rapists, then OK, you'd have a point. But while things are like they are now, you do not.
Owww ok then what are we talking about really. So for that small amount of naughty's she expects all norwegian women to dress differently. Personally, I find that rather, well, rediculous.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 11:23
Owww ok then what are we talking about really. So for that small amount of naughty's she expects all norwegian women to dress differently. Personally, I find that rather, well, rediculous.
Who cares what some random professor says anyway?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-05-2008, 11:24
I don't believe in multi-culturalism at all, actually. Why would you come to a country and try and make it like the one you left?\
I don't think multi-culturalism means immigrants making the place like the one they left, its about them bringing thier culture with them, i don't now how many immigrants we have from warm sandy countries but this place isn't getting any warmer.... or sandier. Somewhat similar to when we had some Italian immigrants after the war and they setup coffee shops and the like, i would say that benefitted our culture, then indians setting up resturants and takeaways across the country, curry is our national dish did you now! its actually a british invented curry that is top Chicken Tikka Massala, that multiculturism in action right there...
A mix of cultures has brought us some of the best food and music we have today, why stop mixing cultures now ??
There's a difference between setting up a coffee shop and starting honour killings, which are a problem in our big cities now.
Who cares what some random professor says anyway?
Littlegrizly asked what I have against multiculturalism, well that is what I have against it it's a perfect example of the braindamage that is blind faith.
But what about the multiculture society! she asked
What about it? I replied.
Eyes widened jaws dropped ... how could I not understand ....
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 11:58
First off Frags, you should know that you shouldn't blindly trust a source, especially a translated one, and that you should check the original source first. Also, you should know that you shouldn't rely on a qoute taken out of context, but you should get the full article.
The article the quote is from is this: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2001/09/06/279676.html
in norwegian, unfortunately...
What she said was this:
- Det er oppsiktsvekkende hvor blinde og naive norske kvinner kan være overfor ikke-vestlige menn. Norske kvinner må bruke vett og forstand, sier Wikan til Dagbladet.
- Tallene overrasker meg ikke i det hele tatt. Mange innvandrere opplever at norske kvinner sender dem signaler om at de ønsker seksuell kontakt. Og da kan det fort gå galt. Mange norske kvinner har altfor dårlig kunnskap om ikke-vestlige menns kvinnesyn, sier Wikan.
- Det er aldri akseptabelt med voldtekt. Men det er forståelig at en del menn fra ikke-vestlige land opplever at de får seksuelle invitter fra norske kvinner som på sin side bare gjør det som er normalt for norske kvinner. Det er oppsiktsvekkende hvor blinde og naive norske kvinner kan være overfor ikke-vestlige menn, sier Wikan.
Jeg vil ikke legge skylden for voldtektene på de norske kvinnene. Men norske kvinner må innse at vi lever i et flerkulturelt samfunn, og innrette seg deretter.
Med mindre de har et ønske om sex, advarer Wikan norske kvinner på det sterkeste mot å invitere med seg hjem for eksempel muslimske menn som vet lite om norsk kultur.
Hun peker også på at voldtektsmenn i de fleste muslimske land knapt blir straffet.
- De fleste steder mener man at det er kvinnen som har skylden for voldtekten. Og det er rimelig at innvandrere tar med seg slike holdninger når de flytter hit til landet, sier professoren, som selv har levd mange år i muslimske land.
Translation:
"- It's suprising how blind and naive norwegian women can be towards non-western men. Norwegian women must use common sense, says Wikan to Dagbladet
- The numbers doesn't surprise me at all. Many immigrants experience that norwegian women are sending them signals that they want sexual contact. And then things can go wrong quickly. A lot of norwegian women have too poor knowledge about non-western mens view of women, says Wikan.
- It's never acceptable with rape. But it's understandable that a few men from non-western countries think they get sexual invitations from norwegian women who are just doing what's normal for norwegian women. It's shocking how blind and naive norwegian women can be towards non-western men, says Wikan.
- I don't want to put the blame of these rapes on the women. But norwegian women needs to realize that we're living in a multicultural society, and adopt accordingly.
Unless they want sex, Wikan warns norwegian women strongly not to invite for example muslim men who know little about norwegian culture home.
She also points to the fact that rapists in most muslim countries are rarely punished.
In most places, they believe that it's the woman who is to blame for the rape. And it's understandable that immigrants take these attitudes with them when they move to this country, says the professor, who has spent many years living in muslim countries."
I'm not very surprised that your original quote was forged by the guy writing the article at that vienna site...
errrrr Horetore that's exactly the same thing, and same context.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 12:10
errrrr Horetore that's exactly the same thing, and same context.
Uhm, no, your qoute says that they should dress appropriately, which she never said. Instead, she says that they should be aware that they're sending the message that they want sex if they invite them home, and that they should be aware of that.
Also, your quote says that the women have the take some responsibility, while she actually says the opposite.
Same thing, she expects all Norwegian women to act differently because of how a small group experiences their behaviour. Not perfect translation on the site but the message is the same. Norwegian women have to adapt to the new circumstances.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 12:27
Same thing, she expects all Norwegian women to act differently because of how a small group experiences their behaviour. Not perfect translation on the site but the message is the same. Norwegian women have to adapt to the new circumstances.
Uhm no. What she says is that they have to realize how their actions are viewed by other people, and that some groups of people view certain actions differently than other groups of people. She doesn't say that women should stop inviting people home, she says that if you invite this and this person home, you should be aware that he might read more into it than that person over there.
And "not a perfect translation" is the understatement of the year. Complete forgery is a better term.
FactionHeir
06-05-2008, 12:31
So uhh anyone heard back from ajaxfetish yet? :grin2:
Uhm no. What she says is that they have to realize how their actions are viewed by other people, and that some groups of people view certain actions differently than other groups of people. She doesn't say that women should stop inviting people home, she says that if you invite this and this person home, you should be aware that he might read more into it than that person over there.
And "not a perfect translation" is the understatement of the year. Complete forgery is a better term.
"I don't want to put the blame of these rapes on the women. But norwegian women needs to realize that we're living in a multicultural society, and adopt accordingly"
pretty obvious, it's right there Horetore. Now what do we really have here, where is the part of people from other culture's having to learn how things go in Norway, no it's exactly the other way around, how they experience it is treated as something that cannot be changed, they see it like that, basta. Where is the part about import having to adapt to that multiculture thingie where Norwegian women behave in a certain way. I don't think that even crossed her mind, new circumstances learn to live with it.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 12:48
"I don't want to put the blame of these rapes on the women. But norwegian women needs to realize that we're living in a multicultural society, and adopt accordingly"
pretty obvious, it's right there Horetore. Now what do we really have here, where is the part of people from other culture's having to learn how things go in Norway, no it's exactly the other way around, how they experience it is treated as something that cannot be changed, they see it like that, basta. Where is the part about import having to adapt to that multiculture thingie where Norwegian women behave in a certain way. I don't think that even crossed her mind, new circumstances learn to live with it.
Nope, her view is that while we are working to change their views(integration), we need to realize that they don't have the same view as we do, and act accordingly.
In other words, integration is the goal, but until that goal is met, we have to find a way to live in peace with each other.
And yes, it is true. We have to know how other people react to what we do. Whether that guy is a loud, brutal and arrogant man from Bergen or a muslim man not used to women not wearing a burka. We are working to change both the arrogance from the bergensers, and the sexual views of the muslims, but until that has changed, we have to know how they react to what they do, and yes, adopt accordingly. Just like we have to in every other field in society.
LittleGrizzly
06-05-2008, 12:49
Full immigrationstop would be a start we can't feed the whole world.
Thats why they come here get a job and start feeding themselves.
But what I am saying is that multiculturalists are like all other extremists that only respect their own silly ideals.
you make it sound like santa or some belief system, i live in a multicultural society and so do you!
Do you mean the people who say mutliculturalism can work are the extremists ?
I would say they are right, of course there are crimes committed by very few of those immigrants and some of them bring views which are slightly different to our norm over here, the vast majority adapt and contribute to society, why just immigrants have this applied to them, did you now alot more working class commit crimes than middle class, for some reason the trash dailys don't seem to throw the same insulting titles out at the working class.
There's a difference between setting up a coffee shop and starting honour killings, which are a problem in our big cities now.
Yes one is something we can encourage and the other is something we work to stamp out with the law on our side, seen as honour killings are usually immigrant on immigrant anyway does it make that much of a difference to our country ?
Not calling the life worthless but i fail to see why we should stop immigration because of immigrants commiting crimes against each other, apart from a bit of police time is wasted but im sure the rabid anti immigrant parade of daily mail buyers makes up for the cost with the buying off sensational headlines...
the comment sounded more like a warning than an instruction or command i see it as something similar to this
Kids have been told to keep ipods, mp3s and mobile phones out of sight as muggings to get these kinds of electronic items are on the rise, did you alot of muggers are working class, they expect people to change to meet the needs of a small group who can't but help themselves and go and mug people showing electronic items
Does it sound like kids are being told to change for muggers or given some sensible advice to avoid getting mugged, i would say the latter....
we need to realize that they don't have the same view as we do, and act accordingly.
Well then we agree on what she says no? Why on earth should we act accordingly? Going to be a rough ride because I am not going to change a damn thing.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 12:55
Well then we agree on what she says no? Why on earth should we act accordingly? Going to be a rough ride because I am not going to change a damn thing.
Well we act accordingly on every other aspect of society, why should this be any different? We treat our boss different from our little brother, we treat our friend different than a stranger, etc etc
Same thing, she expects all Norwegian women to act differently because of how a small group experiences their behaviour. Not perfect translation on the site but the message is the same. Norwegian women have to adapt to the new circumstances.
She said that women should be careful when dealing with non westerners; not that they should stop wearing mini skirts because it'll "invite to rape". There's a huge difference there which you should be able to see.
Well we act accordingly on every other aspect of society, why should this be any different? We treat our boss different from our little brother, we treat our friend different than a stranger, etc etc
Because quite simply I have absolutily no intention to change my ways just because somebody decided mass immigration is the bomb, and nobody should ask me to. They don't have to integrate I couldn't care less what they do as long as nothing is expected from me, not my party so don't invite me.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 13:11
Because quite simply I have absolutily no intention to change my ways just because somebody decided mass immigration is the bomb, and nobody should ask me to. They don't have to integrate I couldn't care less what they do as long as nothing is expected from me, not my party so don't invite me.
Well nothing is expected of you except that you should be aware that if you invite a muslim man with little knowledge of norwegian culture home, he might think that you're interested in sex.
And I doubt that would apply much to you anyway ~;)
InsaneApache
06-05-2008, 13:17
First off Frags, you should know that you shouldn't blindly trust a source, especially a translated one, and that you should check the original source first. Also, you should know that you shouldn't rely on a qoute taken out of context, but you should get the full article.
The article the quote is from is this: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2001/09/06/279676.html
in norwegian, unfortunately...
What she said was this:
- Det er oppsiktsvekkende hvor blinde og naive norske kvinner kan være overfor ikke-vestlige menn. Norske kvinner må bruke vett og forstand, sier Wikan til Dagbladet.
- Tallene overrasker meg ikke i det hele tatt. Mange innvandrere opplever at norske kvinner sender dem signaler om at de ønsker seksuell kontakt. Og da kan det fort gå galt. Mange norske kvinner har altfor dårlig kunnskap om ikke-vestlige menns kvinnesyn, sier Wikan.
- Det er aldri akseptabelt med voldtekt. Men det er forståelig at en del menn fra ikke-vestlige land opplever at de får seksuelle invitter fra norske kvinner som på sin side bare gjør det som er normalt for norske kvinner. Det er oppsiktsvekkende hvor blinde og naive norske kvinner kan være overfor ikke-vestlige menn, sier Wikan.
Jeg vil ikke legge skylden for voldtektene på de norske kvinnene. Men norske kvinner må innse at vi lever i et flerkulturelt samfunn, og innrette seg deretter.
Med mindre de har et ønske om sex, advarer Wikan norske kvinner på det sterkeste mot å invitere med seg hjem for eksempel muslimske menn som vet lite om norsk kultur.
Hun peker også på at voldtektsmenn i de fleste muslimske land knapt blir straffet.
- De fleste steder mener man at det er kvinnen som har skylden for voldtekten. Og det er rimelig at innvandrere tar med seg slike holdninger når de flytter hit til landet, sier professoren, som selv har levd mange år i muslimske land.
Translation:
"- It's suprising how blind and naive norwegian women can be towards non-western men. Norwegian women must use common sense, says Wikan to Dagbladet
- The numbers doesn't surprise me at all. Many immigrants experience that norwegian women are sending them signals that they want sexual contact. And then things can go wrong quickly. A lot of norwegian women have too poor knowledge about non-western mens view of women, says Wikan.
- It's never acceptable with rape. But it's understandable that a few men from non-western countries think they get sexual invitations from norwegian women who are just doing what's normal for norwegian women. It's shocking how blind and naive norwegian women can be towards non-western men, says Wikan.
- I don't want to put the blame of these rapes on the women. But norwegian women needs to realize that we're living in a multicultural society, and adopt accordingly.
Unless they want sex, Wikan warns norwegian women strongly not to invite for example muslim men who know little about norwegian culture home.
She also points to the fact that rapists in most muslim countries are rarely punished.
In most places, they believe that it's the woman who is to blame for the rape. And it's understandable that immigrants take these attitudes with them when they move to this country, says the professor, who has spent many years living in muslim countries."
I'm not very surprised that your original quote was forged by the guy writing the article at that vienna site...
So the women were 'asking for it'? Sorry no. If a man rapes a woman, it is not the fault of the woman. Also rape has little to do with sex and everything to do with power. That says it all really. I was getting very angry reading that :daisy:. If anyone has had any contact with a woman who was raped, then they would know that one is one too many. Seems a little trite to say that there has 'only' been 20-30, that's 20-30 daughters, mothers, girlfriends who's lives have been ruined and scarred.
And yes, it is true. We have to know how other people react to what we do. Whether that guy is a loud, brutal and arrogant man from Bergen or a muslim man not used to women not wearing a burka. We are working to change both the arrogance from the bergensers, and the sexual views of the muslims, but until that has changed, we have to know how they react to what they do, and yes, adopt accordingly. Just like we have to in every other field in society.
You know that is just wishful thinking :furious3:
... 16 Mai 2008 :beam:
Well nothing is expected of you
You kidding me?
So the women were 'asking for it'? Sorry no. If a man rapes a woman, it is not the fault of the woman. Also rape has little to do with sex and everything to do with power. That says it all really. I was getting very angry reading that bullshit. If anyone has had any contact with a woman who was raped, then they would know that one is one too many. Seems a little trite to say that there has 'only' been 20-30, that's 20-30 daughters, mothers, girlfriends who's lives have been ruined and scarred.
No, they weren't to take the blame. However, when encountering a potential danger it's clever to be to careful. It's like like walking past a hungry bear, getting assaulted and expect that no one should think you could have done anything different. If they were walking at the street and getting assaulted they couldn't have done anything different - but inviting them home or getting invited home was maybe not so clever after all.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 13:45
You know that is just wishful thinking :furious3:
It probably is... But by the gods, we shall not stop trying!
... 16 Mai 2008 :beam:
Also, burn in hell.
I can already see non-westerners in Norway walking along deserted streets because everybody tries to avoid the possible dangers, poor guys, not their fault that they have to rape, pillage and torture, that's culturally genetic, they're just not lords of their own bodies. :shrug: :no:
Louis VI the Fat
06-05-2008, 14:08
Fragony has more brains than the entire European left combined.
Sarcasm or not that is sigged.
hmmmrph Fatal error: vB_vURL::Registry object is not an object in [path]/includes/class_vurl.php on line 154
Can't.
So uhh anyone heard back from ajaxfetish yet? :grin2:
It's probably a good sign that we haven't! :yes:
I can already see non-westerners in Norway walking along deserted streets because everybody tries to avoid the possible dangers, poor guys, not their fault that they have to rape, pillage and torture, that's culturally genetic, they're just not lords of their own bodies. :shrug: :no:
Strawman.
Strawman.
Strawman yourself.
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 15:59
You kidding me?
You like to dress up in mini-skirts, get drunk at clubs and ask men to come home with you? :beam:
Boy I'd like to see that!
:playingball:
Strawman yourself.
Oh you know, there is a difference between walking in a public street and being in your own/someone elses home. :juggle2:
Boy I'd like to see that!
Boy?? I am now a MAN ~;)
HoreTore
06-05-2008, 16:08
Boy?? I am now a MAN ~;)
I think the appropriate term is "Sheman", or "Shemale", isn't it? :smash:
Oh you know, there is a difference between walking in a public street and being in your own/someone elses home. :juggle2:
Ah, now you're making sense, I must've missed that part where girls invite men to their homes. :sweatdrop:
I think the appropriate term is "Sheman", or "Shemale", isn't it? :smash:
Like the skinnies, call me skelet-Thor
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-05-2008, 21:18
Fragony has more brains than the entire European left combined.
There is truth in that statement, whether it was intended as sarcasm or as a compliment.
InsaneApache
06-05-2008, 22:18
*eyes Louis*
*checks out EMFM siggy*
*eyes Louis again*
OK, I want a good clean fight. No kicking, scratching or biting and no hitting below the belt...
*ding*
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-06-2008, 02:27
No, they weren't to take the blame. However, when encountering a potential danger it's clever to be to careful. It's like like walking past a hungry bear, getting assaulted and expect that no one should think you could have done anything different. If they were walking at the street and getting assaulted they couldn't have done anything different - but inviting them home or getting invited home was maybe not so clever after all.
Flat out no. Men shouldn't be raping women, end of. If a man thinks he's justified in raping a woman then he's a filthy disgusting barbarian, end of. A woman should be able to say no, is the prevailing opinion in Europe, she should always be able to say no.
Now that's no longer true?
Has the culture changed suddenly?
:shame:
I'm not quite sure what Grizzly is advocating but it seems to be that we leave the filthy immigrants alone to kill each other.:inquisitive:
There is truth in that statement, whether it was intended as sarcasm or as a compliment.
MUHA LOVE :beam:
HoreTore
06-06-2008, 10:14
Now that's no longer true?
Of course it is. But how 'bout this; Stealing is wrong. Noone should steal from you. But how clever are you if leave your car with the keys in the ignition in a bad neighborhood?
InsaneApache
06-06-2008, 10:56
Of course not. But how 'bout this; Stealing is wrong. Noone should steal from you. But how clever are you if leave your car with the keys in the ignition in a bad neighborhood?
That's a very chauvanistic and retrospective attitude. A woman is not a peice of property. No excuse for rape, none at all. I'm suprised at some members of the left excusing the rape of women by an ethnic minority, because their culture allows it. Shame on you all.
Samurai Waki
06-06-2008, 11:02
Rape is rape. It doesn't matter what ethnicity, or culture you hail from. You wanna rape in my neighborhood, be prepared to get a bullet between the eyes.
HoreTore
06-06-2008, 11:08
I'm suprised at some members of the left excusing the rape of women by an ethnic minority, because their culture allows it. Shame on you all.
Who's excusing anyone?
Flat out no. Men shouldn't be raping women, end of. If a man thinks he's justified in raping a woman then he's a filthy disgusting barbarian, end of. A woman should be able to say no, is the prevailing opinion in Europe, she should always be able to say no.
Now that's no longer true?
Has the culture changed suddenly?
:shame:
I'm not quite sure what Grizzly is advocating but it seems to be that we leave the filthy immigrants alone to kill each other.:inquisitive:
Another straw man.
I've stated:
1. The rapist is always the one to blame
2. The women could have been more carefully with whom they invite home; particularly because of these statistics mentioned earlier.
That's a very chauvanistic and retrospective attitude. A woman is not a peice of property. No excuse for rape, none at all. I'm suprised at some members of the left excusing the rape of women by an ethnic minority, because their culture allows it. Shame on you all.
I'm not on the left, nor do I excuse any rapes. :wall:
Nor did HT compare women to property; take the comparisons for what they are. A theft is a theft no matter whether you locked your car or not; but your insurance company could be interested in whether you did.
Rape is rape. It doesn't matter what ethnicity, or culture you hail from. You wanna rape in my neighborhood, be prepared to get a bullet between the eyes.
That's why no one have said anything else.
It's not a question of excusing. A man who commits rape is still every bit as guilty if the rape was easy to commit as if he had to go to great lengths to do it. But it is surely preferable for there to be fewer rapes? As such, if there are practical steps women can take to reduce their chances of being a victim of rape, it makes sense to teach people about them. That isn't the same as saying "if you don't take these steps, you deserve to be raped".
The rate of rape in this country is disgracefully high. How typically irresponsible of the far right to try to blame this on immigration; by far most rapes are commited by non-immigrants, usually people known to the victim. The way to reduce the rate of rape is by changing men's attitudes to sex and to women, however when we try to do this we are accused of "political correctness gone mad". But of course, why would anyone want to take the difficult route which involves facing some uncomfortable truths about our own attitudes when we can just blame the immigrants?
I have to agree with those that say; rape is rape and there is no excuse for it. Sorry for being a Bergenser about it.
Yes, sure I'll expect sex when a buxom lady invites me home after a night out on the town. But if that was not her intention or she changes her mind, no is still no. I can be as disappointed as I want but that does not in any circumstance justify me forcing her to a couple of rounds of horizontal tango.
Not even severe intoxication from alcohol will justify this.
BEHEAD RAPISTS!!! I guess this is a language some of these people understand including ethnic Norwegians.
by far most rapes are commited by non-immigrants
That simply isn't true.
Actually, it is.
I can't find any decent statistics relating specifically to immigrants and rape in the UK, but according to this home office report (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors237.pdf) in 2002 at least 80% of rapists are known to their victims. Since I suspect most non-immigrants tend to mostly know other non-immigrants, this implies most of the rapists are non-immigrants.
If you are genuinely concerned about rape as a social issue, you should read about amnesty international's campaign (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=10220) to end violence against women. You may be interested in the following statistic from their website:
According to an ICM poll undertaken for Amnesty International in 2005, 33% of British people believe a woman is at least partially responsible for rape if she was wearing sexy clothes, flirting or drinking.
33% is a lot more than the total number of immigrants in the country. Tackling the problem of rape is in large part about changing people's attitudes to rape. Yes, this includes changing the attitudes of immigrants as well as non-immigrants, since they fall into the category of "people". But trying to claim stopping immigration will stop rape is irresponsible and deluded in the extreme, since it not only fosters hatred against immigrants but in fact does nothing to actually prevent rapes.
I can't find any decent statistics relating specifically to immigrants and rape in the UK
Need I say more.
HoreTore
06-06-2008, 12:55
Need I say more.
Oh yes Fragony, it's all a part of the global liberaleliteleftiecommunistfeminist conspiracy to screw the common man and bring on a new world order and rape the proud aryan women...
or it may be that nobody has bothered to make the statistics, or that he is unable to find it, or that any statistics are worthless since the majority of rapes are never reported... but no wait, that sounds like common sense, erase that thought immediately!
Samurai Waki
06-06-2008, 12:59
Now I'm not proposing genocide or anything against rapists... but why don't we fence in some miserable part of the world, and if you get caught for rape you get put there. You can rape to your desire. since 99.99999 % of them are going to be other rapists, and men.... then we set up a ton of camera's and air a WWE type tournament, where all the rapists are given "instruments" to do what they please against other rapists, the biggest and strongest will face the cunning and lightening quick. Who will win? and plus if its on Pay Per View we will be drawing in enough income to fly a DC-33 over the prison country and drop one crate of food that all rapists must fight to get. That way at the expense of a few human rights, we can sit back in our EZ Chairs and go "well thank god I'm not a rapist" and live the rest of our lives in happiness and tranquility.
Oh yes Fragony, it's all a part of the global liberaleliteleftiecommunistfeminist conspiracy to screw the common man and bring on a new world order and rape the proud aryan women...
Nah just clueless people from 100% white neighbourhoods living the dream.
If that were the case, then according to your reasoning my "100% white neighbourhood" would be rape-free and I wouldn't care about the issue at all.
If that were the case, then according to your reasoning my "100% white neighbourhood" would be rape-free and I wouldn't care about the issue at all.
Nope, you are from a 100% white neighbourhood and care so deeply. Classical case.
Samurai Waki
06-06-2008, 13:20
Blast it man. You live in a nanny state. Take down that neighborhood by force if need be! Put Camera's in every house, tripwire claymore mines on every tricycle! and have tazer wielding robots posted at every fire hydrant! We've got to nip this little problem in the bud.
*stares at Camera for twelve hours* huh I didn't know the McClellans owned a Dog *writes in book*
HoreTore
06-06-2008, 13:22
Nah just clueless people from 100% white neighbourhoods living the dream.
Yeah... Last I heard, my town(Drammen), had the second highest concentration of non-western immigrants in this country...
And my sis is doing a Lybian :smash:
Apologies that my not being able to find any credible statistics on rape vs. immigration status apparently means I'm "living the dream". Admittedly I was researching this in my hour lunch break, but the fact is I wasn't actually able to find any statistics by anything approaching an impartial source. BBC and the Home Office both lack any statistics on the matter, and even Wikipedia claims any link is at best controversial and highly disputed. (Although I'm sure that when we're discussing immigration, any spurious piece of "research" claiming to show a link will constitute a cast-iron proof, while if we were say discussing climate change then no amount of research would be sufficient to prove the case.)
So, in the end I resorted to the old failsafe, and typed "rape statistics, immigration" into Google. Of the freakshow of far-right nutters and conspiracy theorists I was presented with the nearest thing even approaching a credible source was this article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563890/Foreigners-%27commit-fifth-of-crime-in-London%27.html) from the Telegraph, a rabidly right-wing newspaper. In fact, what I found was an article demonstrating how their numbers are a wild overestimation, but let's for arguments sake accept their numbers at face value for now:
Around a third of all sex offences and a half of all frauds in the capital are carried out by non-British citizens.
As I say, let's take this number of sex offences at face value and compare it to the data on the ethnic makeup of London (http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=3&b=276743&c=London&d=13&e=13&g=325264&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1203354009145&enc=1&dsFamilyId=1812) from the Office of National Statistics:
White: British (Persons): London: 58.2%
Thus, given that non-immigrants make up less than two thirds of the population, if they commit two thirds of the rapes this means that the rate of rape by immigrants is actually significantly lower than in the rest of the population. And note, this is according to the Telegraph's own figures which are almost certainly a gross exaggeration.
As far as I'm concerned, the attempt by the right to link immigration to rape is nothing but a piece of deceitful and irresponsible propaganda. But by all means let's have a grown-up debate on the issue. It is to my mind telling that the best case anyone seems able to muster in favour of the "filthy immigrants will jump your daughters in carparks" argument is to call me names.
Crazed Rabbit
06-07-2008, 06:56
Horetore, funny the professor you translated (and how do we know you didn't mistranslate, hmm? ~;p) doesn't speak about the immigrant men having to realize that things are different in the west. American tourists are stereotyped occasionally as stupid bumbling gawkers when they ignore local customs. These 'immigrants' ignore the whole society and people launch into apologetics for them.
That's the essence of multiculturalism - the natives need to make adjustments for the immigrants, no matter how absurd or appalling they may be. The immigrants are not expected to change.
Since I suspect most non-immigrants tend to mostly know other non-immigrants, this implies most of the rapists are non-immigrants.
I do not think your logic is sound. Were not most of the 7/7 bombers second generation - aka non immigrants. Because, after all, we're not talking about all immigrants here, but people of a certain 'culture'.
Fragony has more brains than the entire European left combined.
Quite.
CR
Originally Posted by Telegraph
Around a third of all sex offences and a half of all frauds in the capital are carried out by non-British citizens.
1/3 and that are just the illegals, now let's take non-british descent. Usually known in brittish media as asians.
HoreTore
06-07-2008, 09:44
Horetore, funny the professor you translated (and how do we know you didn't mistranslate, hmm? ~;p) doesn't speak about the immigrant men having to realize that things are different in the west. American tourists are stereotyped occasionally as stupid bumbling gawkers when they ignore local customs. These 'immigrants' ignore the whole society and people launch into apologetics for them.
This was a short interview, CR. I'm pretty sure she thinks that immigrants need to be integrated in our society(like everyone?)...
And my translation was sound. Don't believe me, ask Viking or Sigurd ~;)
(like everyone?)...
Not me. They can howl to the moon all they want as long as they can provide for theirselves, don't rob grannies and nothing is expected from me. I'll take voluntary segregration over forced integration 24/7.
That's the essence of multiculturalism - the natives need to make adjustments for the immigrants, no matter how absurd or appalling they may be. The immigrants are not expected to change.
The immigrants are expected to change, if they commit rape in this country they go to prison, end of story. It's just it would be better for everyone if the rape didn't happen in the first place.
Nobody is forcing the non-immigrants to change, no matter how much they may howl.
non-immigrants
So natives are non-immigrants, what's in a word.
Originally Posted by Telegraph
Around a third of all sex offences and a half of all frauds in the capital are carried out by non-British citizens.
1/3 and that are just the illegals, now let's take non-british descent. Usually known in brittish media as asians.
You know, when you trot all this stuff out, do you ever really take a long hard look at why? And if you come back and say, 'because their kind, just does', that ain't a real hard look.
You know, when you trot all this stuff out, do you ever really take a long hard look at why?
Nope.
Strike For The South
06-07-2008, 14:51
You know, when you trot all this stuff out, do you ever really take a long hard look at why? And if you come back and say, 'because their kind, just does', that ain't a real hard look.
Rape is never acceptable. No matter how poor you are or what suituation you come. Gangs drugs robbery maybe but rape certianly trascendes economic and social boundaries as bad.
Thought so.
Carefull with that, drives more then a few insane and not the least even Marx wrote a book at some point. But did you really think it over, why are these problems the same everywhere, Sweden and England and France of course the Netherlands are in so many ways different countries with so many different aproaches, but the problem is the same. Maybe it just isn't us, well some of us.
edit, forgot to mention that I have muslim friends, am I a sport or what
Banquo's Ghost
06-07-2008, 15:34
Carefull with that, drives more then a few insane and not the least even Marx wrote a book at some point. But did you really think it over, why are these problems the same everywhere, Sweden and England and France of course the Netherlands are in so many ways different countries with so many different aproaches, but the problem is the same. Maybe it just isn't us, well some of us.
The issues you highlight Fragony, are characteristic concerns of all settled people when it comes to large scale immigration.
For much of the last couple of centuries, the Irish were demonised in exactly the same words you use about Muslims. Our religion was considered suspect, we were poor, violent, aggressive, even sub-human thieves/baby-stealers/mother-rapers/father-rapers and all kind of mean and nasty things. We even did the terrorism thing for real too.
Replace Irish with Jews, Hispanics, Africans or any other immigrant people and you hear the same old tired nonsense. I guess the Romans said the same things about the Germans and back on until the Neanderthals sat round the camp-fire bemoaning the "bloody CroMagnons stealing our mammoths and our wimmin."
The issues you highlight Fragony, are characteristic concerns of all settled people when it comes to large scale immigration.
For much of the last couple of centuries, the Irish were demonised in exactly the same words you use about Muslims. Our religion was considered suspect, we were poor, violent, aggressive, even sub-human thieves/baby-stealers/mother-rapers/father-rapers and all kind of mean and nasty things. We even did the terrorism thing for real too.
Replace Irish with Jews, Hispanics, Africans or any other immigrant people and you hear the same old tired nonsense. I guess the Romans said the same things about the Germans and back on until the Neanderthals sat round the camp-fire bemoaning the "bloody CroMagnons stealing our mammoths and our wimmin."
If it was nonsense since the romans then why are we still saying it. It can be for the better and it can be for the worse, most things since the romans are. Rome is a fitting example though but that would be a bit cheap but not entirely unthinkable.
People are still saying it because it's just as convenient and lazy an excuse to say "blame the immigrants" now as it was then. People would much rather blame all their problems on outsiders than take responsibility for them themselves.
Funny how when the right bangs on about personal responsibility they always seem to be referring to someone else's responsibility, not their own.
Adrian II
06-09-2008, 15:43
I think courts should allow divorce on any ground.Nuff said. The persons involved in the case are backward and silly, not French law.
Nuff said. The persons involved in the case are backward and silly, not French law.
Back on track. Backward and silly are currently minister of law;
Rachida Dati, the Justice Minister, who has Moroccan and Tunisian parents. The law had, she said, protected the bride. “Annulling a marriage is a way of protecting the person who perhaps wants to undo a marriage. I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly. The law is there to protect vulnerable people,” Ms Dati said.
Have a nice death bye, got it comming.
Tribesman
06-09-2008, 16:45
If it was nonsense since the romans then why are we still saying it.
Because humans have a long history of being idiots:idea2:
Now honestly I cannot believe that someone seriously linked to Gates of Vienna , and not only that but then said follow the links on it :dizzy2: Then again see above:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
But anyhow , not on the original story but on the rape theme that has developed . In a typical western white male rapist case what is the likelyhood of a white western born western educted western cultured defense lawyer making an issue of what the victim was wearing , what she was doing , where she was and what sort of sex life she had had ?
If you can come up with any answer than extremely bloody likely if not a certainty then you can go back to your "its the foriegners culture" .
If not and you do persist along that line then all that needs to be said is that you are proving that you are a good example that humans have a long history of being idiots .
Gates of Vienna is an anti-islamisation site so don't be surprised if it's hostile towards the islam in Europe. Relax soon the EU is going to make doubting the peacefull nature of islam a criminal offence so their time is running out. Why don't you check it out you can still vote no.
Tell me Tribes, what do you read here;
achida Dati, the Justice Minister, who has Moroccan and Tunisian parents. The law had, she said, protected the bride. “Annulling a marriage is a way of protecting the person who perhaps wants to undo a marriage. I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly. The law is there to protect vulnerable people,” Ms Dati said.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-09-2008, 21:17
Because humans have a long history of being idiots:idea2:
Now honestly I cannot believe that someone seriously linked to Gates of Vienna , and not only that but then said follow the links on it :dizzy2: Then again see above:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Many people here link to blogs (or, sometimes, nothing at all...*cough*) - just because Gates of Vienna happens to be anti-Islamization and pro-Israel does not necessarily make it more or less reliable than any other blog.
It was Marcus Aurelius that said "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not a truth."
Tribesman
06-09-2008, 22:31
Tell me Tribes, what do you read here;
That annullment is the quick simple and cheap option .
Why what do you read ?
or do you just get stuck into the usual once you reach the word Moroccan ?
Many people here link to blogs
yes and in many cases get ridiculed for the reliability of the information they link to .
Now I hate to break it to ya Mars but a white suprmacist nut site is about as reliable as an al-qaida fan club site . And when someone suggests following the links to support the claims I must say that is something I normally suggest when I want to show a site for the crap that it is by directing people to pages that would not be allowed on this forum . I mean bloody hell I even got warning points for simply suggesting a google search for some of the crap in those links on your page .
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-09-2008, 22:54
yes and in many cases get ridiculed for the reliability of the information they link to .
Now I hate to break it to ya Mars but a white suprmacist nut site is about as reliable as an al-qaida fan club site .
One can be anti-Islamization without being a white supremacist. I'm far from a racist, Tribsey.
EDIT: I don't deny that Gates of Vienna has some pretty whacky stuff, for lack of a better word. However, the gist of this specific article - Muslim hate rapes (and honour killings, etc.) are a problem.
That annullment is the quick simple and cheap option .
Why what do you read ?
or do you just get stuck into the usual once you reach the word Moroccan ?
I read the minister of justice saying that apparantly the girl wanted to divorce rather quikly, now on a scale from 1 to 10 how realistic do you think that is?
Tribesman
06-10-2008, 11:43
I read the minister of justice saying that apparantly the girl wanted to divorce rather quikly, now on a scale from 1 to 10 how realistic do you think that is?
Well Frag unless you can find the woman saying that she wanted a long slow drawn out seperation process then on a realistic level it scores a 10
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-10-2008, 14:17
The issues you highlight Fragony, are characteristic concerns of all settled people when it comes to large scale immigration.
For much of the last couple of centuries, the Irish were demonised in exactly the same words you use about Muslims. Our religion was considered suspect, we were poor, violent, aggressive, even sub-human thieves/baby-stealers/mother-rapers/father-rapers and all kind of mean and nasty things. We even did the terrorism thing for real too.
That was *ahem* certain people going over to Ireland and taking over. Not you going to Saudi Arabia and getting utterly hammered on St Patrick's Day.
Replace Irish with Jews, Hispanics, Africans or any other immigrant people and you hear the same old tired nonsense. I guess the Romans said the same things about the Germans and back on until the Neanderthals sat round the camp-fire bemoaning the "bloody CroMagnons stealing our mammoths and our wimmin."
I think you know as well as I do that Roman civilisation collapsed under the pressures of immigration, and that's just counting the people they invited in.
I'm sorry but the mind set of some of the people coming into Europe right now is just unacceptable. It's not ok to rape women, or stab people you don't like. While I accept that these are things done by our native population it seems to be the prevailing opinion among some immigrant groups.
Well Frag unless you can find the woman saying that she wanted a long slow drawn out seperation process then on a realistic level it scores a 10
Anyone with half a brain and full a bottle understands that this was an aranged marriage.
Tribesman
06-10-2008, 15:24
That was *ahem* certain people going over to Ireland and taking over.
No that was the same crap about Irish immigrants in your country and many others .
While I accept that these are things done by our native population it seems to be the prevailing opinion among some immigrant groups.
Just as it is the prevailing opinion among some native groups , so your statement means nothing .
Anyone with half a brain and full a bottle understands that this was an aranged marriage.
Damn and there was me thinking it was a marriage that wasn't planned :dizzy2:
Sigh.
I wonder if you really don't see it or just enjoy anti-discussion.
Law is the law wether or not the marriage was aranged. That's what she should have said, better if she had shut up. But what does she do she puts all responbibility on the girl.
You read dutch tribes, my favorite white-supremist Afshin Ellian http://www.elsevier.nl/opinie/weblog/asp/artnr/209203/weblogid/77/index.html
Indeed, sharia=+1 and he knows what it is, now I wouldn't go as far as him, judge has to apply the law, but that minister of Justice is way out of line. Or completily in line but that's another issue.
However, the gist of this specific article - Muslim hate
rapes (and honour killings, etc.) are a problem.
You have still not provided a source for these 'hate rapes'; they exist in your books only.
Tribesman
06-10-2008, 16:17
Law is the law
Yes and ???? this annulment was in accorance with the law wasn't it
That's what she should have said, better if she had shut up. But what does she do she puts all responbibility on the girl.
Errr excuse me Frag but the responsibility was on the girl , it was her who lied and her lies that made the marriage contract null and void .
You have still not provided a source for these 'hate rapes'
Perhaps he means Sutcliffe , he raped and killed some women because of the way they dressed and acted , he really hated them and if I recall correctly he claimed to be religeous and was doing nothing wrong at all .
Yes and ???? this annulment was in accorance with the law wasn't it
Errr excuse me Frag but the responsibility was on the girl , it was her who lied and her lies that made the marriage contract null and void .
The man can distinguish every shade of gray on a scarve but he doesn't see what's wrong here :dizzy2:
KukriKhan
06-10-2008, 16:49
Thanks for another episode of The Fragony and Tribesman Show. It's been up to the usual standard of entertainment, which is to say, it's about as intriguing as watching paint dry.
I do have a question(s), though: This ruling was in Lille, France. So, we can assume that in that jurisdiction, the virginity of a bride (presumeably: any Bride, not just a Muslim one) is a contractual condition of a marriage? Do the prospective brides sign some paper that certifies "I am a Virgin"? If not, how has the State shown a compelling interest in enforcing a virginity requirement? Or, if so, could any Groom, years after the fact, claim annullment of his marriage, if his Bride admits non-virginity as of their wedding date?
it's about as intriguing as watching paint dry.
You go to the wrong party's.
And no years after the fact it wouldn't stand, proportionality-principle.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 17:10
But anyhow , not on the original story but on the rape theme that has developed . In a typical western white male rapist case what is the likelyhood of a white western born western educted western cultured defense lawyer making an issue of what the victim was wearing , what she was doing , where she was and what sort of sex life she had had ?
If you can come up with any answer than extremely bloody likely if not a certainty then you can go back to your "its the foriegners culture" .
If not and you do persist along that line then all that needs to be said is that you are proving that you are a good example that humans have a long history of being idiots .
Indeedy.
I remeber a newspaper article in Aftenposten a year or so ago, about a study on jury verdicts in rape cases. They found that they were a lot more likely to find the defendant guilty than judges, especially when there were a majority of women in the jury.
There were quotes of a few statements, the best one I remember was from a white, female jury member, who stated that "...no respectable girl would go to a party like that." And then found the defendant not guilty....
There were quotes of a few statements, the best one I remember was from a white, female jury member, who stated that "...no respectable girl would go to a party like that." And then found the defendant not guilty....
Maybe because they were so very, very specific.
Sigh, the greatest trick Marx ever pulled was convincing the people they have a clue :thumbsdown:
Tribesman
06-10-2008, 17:53
I do have a question(s), though: This ruling was in Lille, France. So, we can assume that in that jurisdiction, the virginity of a bride (presumeably: any Bride, not just a Muslim one) is a contractual condition of a marriage?
Not in the slightest , the virginity isn't the issue its the deception about the virginity that is the issue .
leglly speaking ,marriage is just another contract , if it is established that a contract is gained under false pretenses then the contract is null and void .That is all that has happened here and why it was a non-story until the Sun tried to make an issue of it.
indeedy indeed HoreTore , it is unfortunately all to common to find idiots with views like that which you mention . There was a survey over here a few months back where a very sickening number of people put the blame on the victim in rape cases .
Not in the slightest , the virginity isn't the issue its the deception about the virginity that is the issue .
No the issue is applying the law and living the law, everybody but a few understands what really happened here. Would have been a strictly legal issue had the minister of justice kept her mouth shut instead of morally supporting the husband.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-10-2008, 18:20
Oh hang on there. I'm going to back Tribes on this one. How was she supporting the husband?
Oh hang on there. I'm going to back Tribes on this one. How was she supporting the husband?
"I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly. The law is there to protect vulnerable people,” Ms Dati said."
She knows very well what most likely to have happened to this girl. She will not be able to marry within the boundaries of her traditions she's going to live the life of an outcast. Of course she didn't want to seperate very quikly because that means she's screwed, she's damaged goods, a shame for her family. It is so very irresponsible of no less then the minister of justice to speak out on this when it's quite clear that the judge applied nothing other then the law, but she had to feed a bone to the ' traditionalists'.
Adrian II
06-10-2008, 19:39
She knows very well what most likely to have happened to this girl. She will not be able to marry within the boundaries of her traditions she's going to live the life of an outcast. Of course she didn't want to seperate very quikly because that means she's screwed, she's damaged goods, a shame for her family. It is so very irresponsible of no less then the minister of justice to speak out on this when it's quite clear that the judge applied nothing other then the law, but she had to feed a bone to the ' traditionalists'.Very well said. Have you been to a political debating course or something, where they taught you to make a point without appearing hysterical? You're getting better, man. That Justice Minister's remark is scandalous and she ought to be fired on the spot.
You're getting better, man. That Justice Minister's remark is scandalous and she ought to be fired on the spot.
Well that's unexpected, thanks :beam:
Tribesman
06-10-2008, 20:23
Of course she didn't want to seperate very quikly because that means she's screwed, she's damaged goods, a shame for her family.
Don't be so silly Frag , she was called publicly called a liar and a slut in front of her wedding guests at the wedding party on her wedding day ...and you seem to think that she didn't want to get the hell out as quick as possible after that ?????:dizzy2:
Oh hold on , I get it . She didn't want to get out quickly because if she did she would be screwed :yes:
Of course , why couldn't I see that ....perhaps because I was stuck on the the little detail that the public display on her wedding day meant that she was already well and truly screwed as .
That Justice Minister's remark is scandalous and she ought to be fired on the spot.
Why is that Adrian ?
Would it not appear that while other ministers and politicians are shouting outrage over the case that was entirely within the law , this minister simply said that it was done within the law and that is what laws are there for .
It is so very irresponsible of no less then the minister of justice to speak out on this when it's quite clear that the judge applied nothing other then the law,
Could you think of any better person to make a comment about the legality of a case when other people are talking nonsense about it ?
Perhaps I live in an alternative reality but usually when a legal case becomes an issue and politicians are shouting the odds it is up to the justice minister to make a statement on the case .
It does make you wonder though if as you say Fragony it was obviously quite clear that the judge did nothing but apply the law why on earth were the other politicians spouting crap(apart from them being politicians of course) ?
Adrian II
06-10-2008, 20:38
Why is that Adrian ?
Would it not appear that while other ministers and politicians are shouting outrage over the case that was entirely within the law , this minister simply said that it was done within the law and that is what laws are there for .That's what you say. She said something entirely different, didn't she? And she said the law was there to protect vulnerable people. Yet the law was invoked by the husband, not the vulnerable girl. Do you honestly think a girl in her position is able to exercise her formal rights? She isn't, and the Minister knows that. If you can't see the scandalous point in her remark, then you must have no heart.
It all doesn't make sense, old chum, until you realise that she is defending tribal custom; that she is, like our friend here said, throwing a bone to North African migrants who are stuck in the old ways.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 20:42
On another note; why on earth shouldn't people be allowed to divorce(or annul) a marriage for whatever reason they may please?
What gives us(as in; the society) the right to decide which reason are valid and which are not, what gives us the right to force 2 people to live together?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 21:07
You have still not provided a source for these 'hate rapes'; they exist in your books only.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/muslim_gang_rapes.htm
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21026/islamic-hate-speech (Not about hate rapes, but gives an interesting background on the mindset)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australian-muslim-cleric-blames-women-for-rape-421803.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/muslim_gang_rapes.htm
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21026/islamic-hate-speech (Not about hate rapes, but gives an interesting background on the mindset)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australian-muslim-cleric-blames-women-for-rape-421803.html
A few isolated cases here and there, sure thing.
Tribesman
06-10-2008, 21:38
It all doesn't make sense, old chum, until you realise that she is defending tribal custom; that she is, like our friend here said, throwing a bone to North African migrants who are stuck in the old ways.
Come off it old chum surely the tribal custom would have been to kill the bride then maim the familly then apply to the elders for financial retribution for the expense of the wedding and the "humiliation" their son sufered:yes:
Instead like a good "westernised" family they called in the lawyers and went to the district court all legal like:2thumbsup:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 21:57
A few isolated cases here and there, sure thing.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=3DC049A1-CE0D-4557-A3B7-2AD9C7BED66B
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=3DC049A1-CE0D-4557-A3B7-2AD9C7BED66B
http://patdollard.com/2007/04/13/epidemic-of-racist-rapes-of-white-christian-women-by-immigrant-muslim-men-sweeps-europe-police-in-south-of-france-80-committed-by-muslims-30-muslim-gang-rapes-muslims-blame-provoca/
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1937
http://errantmind.wordpress.com/2007/03/05/muslim-rape-statistics-in-oslo-raping-europe/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005412.php
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1372959/posts
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/07/norwegian-government-covering-up.html
http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimhateinNorway.htm (mainly paragraph eight, though the whole article is relevant)
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/australias-top-muslim-blames-women-for-sex-attacks
Adrian II
06-10-2008, 21:58
Come off it old chum surely the tribal custom would have been to kill the bride then maim the familly then apply to the elders for financial retribution for the expense of the wedding and the "humiliation" their son sufered:yes:
Instead like a good "westernised" family they called in the lawyers and went to the district court all legal like:2thumbsup:Coming from you, that's as good as an admission that maybe Frags and me and others aren't entirely bolloxed tonight.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 22:05
http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimhateinNorway.htm (mainly paragraph eight, though the whole article is relevant)
That's quite possible the funniest piece of complete nonsense I have ever read.
Thanks!
Coming from you, that's as good as an admission that maybe Frags and me and others aren't entirely bolloxed tonight.
That is true, yes definatily. But we aren't angry Tribesman, just a little dissapointed.
hehe
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 22:23
That's quite possible the funniest piece of complete nonsense I have ever read.
I take it you read the relevant paragraph and links?
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 22:29
I take it you read the relevant paragraph and links?
Which? The forged quotes, the outright lies, the undocumented claims, the things taken out of context or the things the author has misunderstood completely?
EMFM, what you need is quality of links, not quantity. All you've really managed to establish is that there are a lot of nutters on the internet, and I think we were all already aware of that.
Anything from a credible source? (Hint: Some far-right loony's blog doesn't count as a credible source)
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 22:45
EMFM, what you need is quality of links, not quantity. All you've really managed to establish is that there are a lot of nutters on the internet, and I think we were all already aware of that.
The Brussels Journal is a perfectly fine source, in my opinion. The freerepublic.com link is also quite good. I also fail to see a problem with FrontPage Magazine.
A site being conservative does not make it unreliable.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=3DC049A1-CE0D-4557-A3B7-2AD9C7BED66B
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=3DC049A1-CE0D-4557-A3B7-2AD9C7BED66B
http://patdollard.com/2007/04/13/epidemic-of-racist-rapes-of-white-christian-women-by-immigrant-muslim-men-sweeps-europe-police-in-south-of-france-80-committed-by-muslims-30-muslim-gang-rapes-muslims-blame-provoca/
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1937
http://errantmind.wordpress.com/2007/03/05/muslim-rape-statistics-in-oslo-raping-europe/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005412.php
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1372959/posts
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/07/norwegian-government-covering-up.html
http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimhateinNorway.htm (mainly paragraph eight, though the whole article is relevant)
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/australias-top-muslim-blames-women-for-sex-attacks
All of those sources are about as biased as a source could possible be. Why can you not provide a primary source, or source that's more well known, like BBC? I'll answer: it's because all of this is original research and doubtful; it doesn't take anything to host such websites, anyone can.
As for over-representation for immigrants; that doesn't surprise me, any minority within a country will do.
Furthermore, by the over-representation logic; if one find that people with little education are also over-represented, then we should kick them all out of the country, since the likelyhood of one of them committing rape it is greater than for an average person. And probably you'll find a link between alcohol and rapes, that those who drink alcohol are more likely to commit rape, such that all non-teetotals should be kicked out of the country. It's all in the statistics anyway.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 23:02
The Brussels Journal is a perfectly fine source, in my opinion. The freerepublic.com link is also quite good. I also fail to see a problem with FrontPage Magazine.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1754 <-Like that one?
The number of rapes in the Norwegian capital Oslo is six times as high as in New York City.
A good tip on how to ruin your credibility: start your article with an outright lie. Always a winner.
If you don't believe me, I'll show it to you:
According to a reliable source like this one (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm), the number of rapes in New York was 3169 in 2006. The population is some 18 million.
In oslo, according to this article (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1567514.ece) there were 235 reported rapes in 2006 with a population of some 500.000.
Multiply 235 with 36, and you get 8460. Divide 8460 by 3169 and you get a little over 2,5 and not 6...
But that doesn't give a very good picture, as with anything involving rape and statistics, due to the fact that the vast number of rapes never gets reported and the numbers are pulled from two different agencies. Also, I don't really know what the new york numbers are, if they're convictions or rapes reported to the police.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 23:17
I'll answer: it's because all of this is original research and doubtful; it doesn't take anything to host such websites, anyone can.
There's a problem with original research? Anyhow, I've listed three sites from there that I believe are reliable enough. Of course they're biased - get used to the media.
But that doesn't give a very good picture, as with anything involving rape and statistics, due to the fact that the vast number of rapes never gets reported and the numbers are pulled from two different agencies. Also, I don't really know what the new york numbers are, if they're convictions or rapes reported to the police.
Thank you. ~:)
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 23:19
There's a problem with original research? Anyhow, I've listed three sites from there that I believe are reliable enough. Of course they're biased - get used to the media.
Thank you. ~:)
So in your opinion, people making up numbers are "reliable enough"....? :inquisitive:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 23:24
So in your opinion, people making up numbers are "reliable enough"....? :inquisitive:
Regarding the proportion of the rapes, is this good enough for you?
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 23:29
Regarding the proportion of the rapes, is this good enough for you?
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
It gets even better there: 111 rapes. Multiply that with 36, and you get just a little more than New York.
I'm still waiting to hear whether you think people making up numbers are reliable, or that you show me where it says the number of rapes are 6 times higher per capita in oslo than new york.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 23:32
It gets even better there: 111 rapes. Multiply that with 36, and you get just a little more than New York.
The proportion committed by immigrants is the important part, not the amount of rapes that there are in New York. The proportion committed by immigrants is high and the number of rapes are rising.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 23:38
The proportion committed by immigrants is the important part, not the amount of rapes that there are in New York.
No, your "reliable source" stated that the number of rapes were 6 times higher in oslo than in new york.
The proportion committed by immigrants is high and the number of rapes are rising.
Bah. 72 rapes committed from a population of some 50.000 immigrants. Why on earth should we let the actions of 72 idiots affect the situation of the 49.928 other immigrants?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 23:40
No, your "reliable source" stated that the number of rapes were 6 times higher in oslo than in new york.
Which is irrelevant to my point.
Bah. 72 rapes committed from a population of some 50.000 immigrants. Why on earth should we let the actions of 72 idiots affect the situation of the 49.928 other immigrants?
Because, proportionally, these people are raping more than non-immigrants, meaning some sort of reform or change is needed. Rape charges are increasing fairly dramatically, and not all cases make it to prosecution, and not every rape has charges filed.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 23:50
Which is irrelevant to my point.
It's pretty relevant to your point that the blog you pointed to is a reliable source.
[QUOTE=Evil_Maniac From Mars;1943285]Because, proportionally, these people are raping more than non-immigrants, meaning some sort of reform or change is needed.
Bah. As I said, 72 rapes. How on earth can you justify reforms for 50.000 innocent people based on 72 dolts? That's like saying that Norway should've made some huge reforms for our population in 1945 because a few traitors joined the germans when they invaded.
Rape charges are increasing fairly dramatically
As they say, there are 2 kinds of lies; small lies, and statistics. Put the numbers in percentage, and the numbers are dramatic. Look at the actual headcount, and the increase is minimal.
and not all cases make it to prosecution, and not every rape has charges filed.
And just how do you know that the increase isn't caused simply by more people reporting rapes as opposed to more rapes occurring? And how do you know that immigrants are not over-represented because they get reported more often than non-immigrants?
ajaxfetish
06-10-2008, 23:54
So uhh anyone heard back from ajaxfetish yet? :grin2:
After careful consideration, I've decided to change my answer from 'Yes, I'm a virgin' to 'No . . . no, I'm not.' ~:)
Pics soon to follow*
Ajax
*of the wedding, you sickos!
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-10-2008, 23:54
Bah. As I said, 72 rapes. How on earth can you justify reforms for 50.000 innocent people based on 72 dolts?
The point is that most rapes are committed by a population that makes up a small percentage of the population.
Put the numbers in percentage, and the numbers are dramatic. Look at the actual headcount, and the increase is minimal.
The increase is proportionally dramatic. Good enough for you?
And just how do you know that the increase isn't caused simply by more people reporting rapes as opposed to more rapes occurring? And how do you know that immigrants are not over-represented because they get reported more often than non-immigrants?
You don't, but you're just speculating, the article uses data.
HoreTore
06-10-2008, 23:57
You don't, but you're just speculating, the article uses data.
And neither do you.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 00:03
And neither do you.
Well, at least I have the article to back me up. ~;)
Geoffrey S
06-11-2008, 00:05
Can we please, please stop with the racist, xenophobic, and utterly laughable blogs? All they're doing is make my brains rot. I much prefer the actual subject of the topic, namely the curious (and in my opinion, wrongful) application of modern Western judicial systems in the defense of the practices of archaic tribal traditions, which form a major part in the everyday lives of many north-African (muslim) immigrants.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 00:08
Can we please, please stop with the racist, xenophobic, and utterly laughable blogs?
Well, we already have, see. We're on the second-largest newspaper in Norway now, to my knowledge. ~;)
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 00:19
well Mars you really are proving Vikings point .
Leaving aside the absolute fruitcake nature of some of those sites , lets just look
Viking wrote....
A few isolated cases here and there, sure thing.
You respond with a pile of links :yes:
OK so far ?
No then , of that pile of links how many how many are using exactly the same incident/news report/survey for their whole gamut ?
Now if as is the case they are all linking to the same thing then that is a big reporting of isolated cases not as you wish to portray a big incidence of cases .
BTW...
I also fail to see a problem with FrontPage Magazine.
...Jihadwtch is part of frontpage , the US government describes that as a racist hate site.... Do you see the problem there ?:idea2:
Coming from you, that's as good as an admission that maybe Frags and me and others aren't entirely bolloxed tonight.
Not at all , you are bolloxed until either you or Frag can show that the post before that was in any way wrong .
Geoffrey S
06-11-2008, 00:19
We're on the second largest newspaper of Norway, which shows nothing more shocking than that of the roughly 100.000 non-western immigrants, less than eighty commit rape per year. Looks like you're on something else entirely... ~;p
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 00:26
We're on the second largest newspaper of Norway, which shows nothing more shocking than that of the roughly 100.000 non-western immigrants, less than eighty commit rape per year. Looks like you're on something else entirely... ~;p
The main difference here is that we're viewing the same numbers differently.
PanzerJaeger
06-11-2008, 00:26
Can we please, please stop with the racist, xenophobic, and utterly laughable blogs? All they're doing is make my brains rot.
Ignoring content to attack a source is a sign of intellectual weakness. So, yea, you might want to get that checked out. :shrug:
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 00:27
Well, we already have, see. We're on the second-largest newspaper in Norway now, to my knowledge.
So if I was to link to an article from the Sun it wouldn't be considered laughable xenophobic mass market tripe because its the biggest selling english language newspaper in the world then:idea2:
Adrian II
06-11-2008, 00:33
Not at all , you are bolloxed until either you or Frag can show that the post before that was in any way wrong .If you don't understand what makes the girl such a vulnerable party in this incident and how the Minister's statement mocks her vulnerability, I can't help you. Like I said, have your heart function checked to see if you have one.
Geoffrey S
06-11-2008, 00:36
Ignoring content to attack a source is a sign of intellectual weakness. So, yea, you might want to get that checked out. :shrug:
Omigosh, so there was content!? :dizzy2:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 00:36
So if I was to link to an article from the Sun it wouldn't be considered laughable xenophobic mass market tripe because its the biggest selling english language newspaper in the world then:idea2:
Aftenposten isn't exactly a bad newspaper Tribes...
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 00:57
If you don't understand what makes the girl such a vulnerable party in this incident and how the Minister's statement mocks her vulnerability, I can't help you.
Adrian shall I repeat ....Not at all , you are bolloxed until either you or Frag can show that the post before that was in any way wrong .
Like I said, have your heart function checked to see if you have one.
Errrrr..she lied to fit in and got caught out , my heart really bleeds for her .
If you want to fit in with something then fit in , if you don't believe in all the bollox associated with it then don't pretend you do . Simple isn't it .
Adrian II
06-11-2008, 01:28
Errrrr..she lied to fit in and got caught out , my heart really bleeds for her . If you want to fit in with something then fit in , if you don't believe in all the bollox associated with it then don't pretend you do . Simple isn't it .In the 1970's a Dutch acquaintance of mine who played the violin, and played it well, met a girl from Northern Ireland. He went to live there in order to court her and meanwhile tried to make a living with his instrument. One of the first things that struck him was that when he went to a pub and talked about music and people would ask him what instrument he played, he would have to chose his answer carefully. If he said 'violin', the Catholics would drop him like a hot turd. If he said 'fiddle', the Protestants would. And the dumbest thing, he wrote to me in a letter, was that there was no word in the middle.
That's how deeply a town, a province or a nation can be divided over social and religious issues. You are right that one has a choice not to lie in any given situation, even if that means losing one's entire social frame, tradition and family solidarity. But that choice is never 'simple' - that's a lie; it is not simple at all. And to state that girls and young women who face these stark choices are not vulnerable makes it a heartless lie.
Put that in your pint and drink it.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 01:31
If he said 'violin', the Catholics would drop him like a hot turd. If he said 'fiddle', the Protestants would. And the dumbest thing, he wrote to me in a letter, was that there was no word in the middle.
As a Catholic, I have always called it a violin. The Irish are bloody strange. :dizzy2:
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 03:48
The Irish are bloody strange.
Yes but are they Muslims .:laugh4::laugh4:
My dearest Adrian you are missing something very important in your last post .~;) Its a four letter word that should have been used twice .
As a Catholic, I have always called it a violin. The Irish are bloody strange. :dizzy2:
Does explain why Tribes isn't so easily impressed
Adrian II
06-11-2008, 11:40
My dear Tribesman, there is a four-word sentence missing from your own posts: "Fragony has a point."
That's like saying that Norway should've made some huge reforms for our population in 1945 because a few traitors joined the germans when they invaded.
No reforms were needed. We should look into the remedy that purged those Nazis from our midst though. It might be the solution to this 'problem'. :beam:
Adrian II
06-11-2008, 12:16
No reforms were needed. We should look into the remedy that purged those Nazis from our midst though. It might be the solution to this 'problem'. :beam:Sigurd? Am I reading you correctly here? :stare:
Oh, ok, I think I do now.
Nazis = hate rapists
Nazis =/= a certain minority as a whole
Right? :sweatdrop:
Sigurd? Am I reading you correctly here? :stare:
I see a Dragon in every rapists, but the smiley should indicate I wasn't entirely serious with my suggestion of public beating and hanging by the neck until death.
Having two beautiful girls who are both blond and extrovert, worries me. I don't know how I will react should some ill befell them.
...
They better be virgins on their wedding day. :whip: ... :beam:
AdrianII you craving little knave stop falling in love with me, I apreciate the support but you are getting dangerously close to messing with the balance.
HoreTore
06-11-2008, 13:29
They better be virgins on their wedding day. :whip: ... :beam:
.................to late
:beam::beam::beam:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-11-2008, 15:27
In the 1970's a Dutch acquaintance of mine who played the violin, and played it well, met a girl from Northern Ireland. He went to live there in order to court her and meanwhile tried to make a living with his instrument. One of the first things that struck him was that when he went to a pub and talked about music and people would ask him what instrument he played, he would have to chose his answer carefully. If he said 'violin', the Catholics would drop him like a hot turd. If he said 'fiddle', the Protestants would. And the dumbest thing, he wrote to me in a letter, was that there was no word in the middle.
That's how deeply a town, a province or a nation can be divided over social and religious issues. You are right that one has a choice not to lie in any given situation, even if that means losing one's entire social frame, tradition and family solidarity. But that choice is never 'simple' - that's a lie; it is not simple at all. And to state that girls and young women who face these stark choices are not vulnerable makes it a heartless lie.
Put that in your pint and drink it.
Well which was she, Protestant or Catholic? Why was he going to both types of pub in the 1970's?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that after what happened the girl didn't want to get out sharpish, and had she had to wait for a divorce then she might be in a worse state. So, can you expalin what's so wrong with the minister's statement?
And the dumbest thing, he wrote to me in a letter, was that there was no word in the middle.
I remember my dad telling me a story about a Jewish schoolfriend of his, who whenever he met someone for the first time, would invariably be faced with the question "yes, but are you a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?" They don't do middle grounds in Northern Ireland.
Regarding the issue at hand, I would certainly argue that the court should not have granted the annulment, which to my very great surprise puts me in agreement with Fragony, though I suspect for different reasons. I simply feel that one should not be able to put conditions on a marriage contract since marriage should inherently be about trust and equality. Thus the guy being unhappy with his bride (either because of not being a virgin or because of the lie involved) should not constitute grounds for annulment. You want out of a marriage for a petty reason, you can always file for divorce.
I still don't see what on Earth any of this has to do with so-called "hate rapes" though (surely all rapes are hate rapes, not just those commited by immigrants?)
I would certainly argue that the court should not have granted the annulment, which to my very great surprise puts me in agreement with Fragony
No it doesn't because it isn't the legal part that stings, judge could have done nothing else. I am a bit surprised that so many people here who can't be completily daft because they know many words have such a hard time reading politicologics. Except of course my buddy AdrianII, odd lefty he is, a sense of humour and on top of that not completily insane I want to clone him.
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 16:02
Why was he going to both types of pub in the 1970's?
Well Adrian did say that yer man was a good player , so since the tunes are pretty much on the same lines he can have played either side witout anyone caring ...if however he was a singer he may have had to learn two sets of lyrics for the same melody .
So, can you expalin what's so wrong with the minister's statement?
That is a question that Adrian seems unable to answer , the only response appears to be "can't you see whats wrong" . Perhaps he is just having a donkey oaty moment and will soon be trying to convince us that the windmills are indeed not windmills at all .
They don't do middle grounds in Northern Ireland.
Of course they do , the middle ground is one of them big steel barriers they call a peace line:2thumbsup:
Then again there was always the alliance party:yes:
Adrian II
06-11-2008, 16:11
That is a question that Adrian seems unable to answer , the only response appears to be "can't you see whats wrong" . Perhaps he is just having a donkey oaty moment and will soon be trying to convince us that the windmills are indeed not windmills at all .Me no takey baitey. :nice:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 17:14
.................to late
:beam::beam::beam:
Ummm...you do realize that it was Sigurd who said that, and not myself?
Ummm...you do realize that it was Sigurd who said that, and not myself?
In Soviet Russia they take the maidenhead of your future daughters. :smash:
HoreTore
06-11-2008, 18:19
Ummm...you do realize that it was Sigurd who said that, and not myself?
What? No idea how that was made into a quote from you.... Seriously. I blame Tosa.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-11-2008, 20:18
What? No idea how that was made into a quote from you.... Seriously. I blame Tosa.
Oh, sure, blame the Dutch.
~;)
In Soviet Russia they take the maidenhead of your future daughters. :smash:
In Soviet Russia, virginity take YOU!
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 20:44
Me no takey baitey.
So would that imply that you are unwilling to answer or just unable ?
Or given the nature of the question a combination of both ?:inquisitive:
Might it be that you don't like the answer and wish to avoid it ?:yes:
http://www.abbou.de/img/smeagol.jpg
Banquo's Ghost
06-12-2008, 07:36
I think we are about done with this topic, don't you?
:closed:
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.