swiss armoured pikmen?

[evan3d87]

are SAP that good? i know there like 900 for 96 men, but come on. ive used them before in many situations, but i dont really think there worth the price. some people say that there the best unit. that might be true, but its defintly not the most bang for ur buck

[Inferno]

They are not worth the price. Valor 2, Armor 1 spearmen are cheaper and win a head on fight.

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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!

[pdoan8]

In SP, both Swiss Pikemen and Swiss Amoured Pikemen are very good but they are expensive to train. Both are very good in defense. SAP are better in melee than other European spear/pike.

Crack Feu/Chiv Segeant still do better than rooky SP/SAP.

[Pragmatic]

Keep in mind, after the patch, Swiss Pikemen will ONLY be available from Switzerland, and the ordinary variety (and maybe the armored variety?) will get a free +1 valor bonus.

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Inferno:
They are not worth the price. Valor 2, Armor 1 spearmen are cheaper and win a head on fight.

[/QUOTE]

Err. No they don't. You're probably thinking of chiv sergs or order foot...

[Jo_Beare]

In SP, I think they are worth it. I've been using them frequently as the Italians in my current campaign. The support cost in SP is in line with other spear units so they can make good garrison units in those front line provinces where you might be vulnerable to attack.

I can only think of one time when I have seen one of my SAP get routed off the map. My whole army was routed by a Polish army of over 2000 led by their King except for my SAP. The SAP fought off all the first wave of hth and cav including killing the king. By the time they did route, they had lost about 120 and had killed a little over 1000 of the enemy. Not too bad for being outflanked and being constantly peppered with projectiles.

JoBeare

[Inferno]

Quote Originally posted by Dorkus:
Err. No they don't. You're probably thinking of chiv sergs or order foot... [/QUOTE]

Err. Yes they do. I tested it 10 times (Agincourt, perfectly flat)

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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!

[Corax]

SAP are THE unit in the game for defense. But as with every other unit, if not used properly (i.e. alone), they get beaten by good M-A-A.

[Azmogeddon]

Of course spearmen will have a huge advantage against pikemen... pikemen suck against infantry even more than spearmen/sergeants.

A much better comparison would be to pit both against some knights, then you will get a quite different result.

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[FacelessClock]

The SAP are a excellent offensive weapon. They also have the "super unit" versatility of being able to kill most units in the game by itself.

The Pikemen is not a front line unit, though. Not to say the SAP can't do frontline work, but it would be so much more effecient and effective to use a high valour Order Foot in most cases. Apply the pikemen to gaps or to where you need damage. And they devastate, simpily devastate cavalry...and sometimes routing the cavalry on your flank can cause the entire enemy army to run.

[TenkiSoratoti]

I say never use swiss armoured pikeman , swiss pikeman are cheaper and have just as much stamina has armoured pikeman so go with them.

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[deejayvee]

What are the stat differences for SAP's as opposed to SP's??

[FacelessClock]

The same, except the SAP have +3 defense and +2 armour.

[andrewt]

Quote Originally posted by Inferno:
Err. Yes they do. I tested it 10 times (Agincourt, perfectly flat)

[/QUOTE]

Unless there is a bug somewhere, they aren't supposed to. Unupgraded SAP are the equivalent of valor 3 armor 3 spearmen statwise and pikemen have better and more rank bonuses than spearmen.

[Skelington The Great]

Me and fellow clanmate won 4/4 battles in a multiplayer competition recently, always using 2 units of Swiss Pikemen in our armies, they kickered arse.
Mind you, we played some noobs..

[Gringoleader]

They have a reputation that tends to make them an arrow magnet in my experience.

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Inferno:
Err. Yes they do. I tested it 10 times (Agincourt, perfectly flat)

[/QUOTE]

First, I don't think agincourt is perfectly flat. Though this shouldn't matter, as SAP should be pasting them even on slightly uneven ground. Second, I tested it out as well, and the SAP wasted the valor 2 armor 2 spearmen.

Look at the stats, including rank bonuses:

Spearmen (valor 2, armor 1)
Atk 2 (+2 valor, +1 rank)
Def 4 (+2 shield, +2 valor, +1 armor)
Charge 7 (+2 rank)

SAP
Atk 4 (+2 rank)
Def 9 (+4 rank)
Charge 8 (+4 rank)

So statistically, SAP should be wasting them. And in my experience, they do. Perhaps you've been tinkering with your unit stats?

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Azmogeddon:
Of course spearmen will have a huge advantage against pikemen... pikemen suck against infantry even more than spearmen/sergeants.

A much better comparison would be to pit both against some knights, then you will get a quite different result.

[/QUOTE]

Actually, SAPs are the best infantry killers in the game. And it's not even very close. They have the same charge value as cavalry (8 with rank bonuses), 4 attack, and a RIDICULOUS 9 defense.

Spearmen are also pretty amazing against infantry. With buggy armor piercing and possibly buggy rank/cavalry bonuses, spears/pikes rule the battlefield.

As someone already noted, their big weakness imo is missiles. With no shield, their armor is a bit low. They also drop like flies to naptha throwers. But good luck getting the naptha throwers close enuf to use them, heh.

[This message has been edited by Dorkus (edited 10-16-2002).]

[Cheetah]

PAF

[Alrowan]

lies all lies

swiss armoured pikes rout when my arbs shoot them, usually can take out most of a unit even. Byz inf slaughter them as well, just keep you byz inf in a wider formation.

on a frontal assault, gallowglasses slaughter the swiss pikes

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Alrowan:
lies all lies

swiss armoured pikes rout when my arbs shoot them, usually can take out most of a unit even. Byz inf slaughter them as well, just keep you byz inf in a wider formation.

on a frontal assault, gallowglasses slaughter the swiss pikes [/QUOTE]

Well, i agree re: arbalests. They're great against SAP, and absolute murder against regular SP.

But I think you're wrong about byz inf. Byz inf are GREAT units, and in my tests, they DO beat SP but ONLY if they are in wide formation and the SP ARE NOT. When BI are wide and SP are tight, not only do a good number of BI get flank bonuses to attack, but they also seem to brank up the SP's formation (which, of course, penalizes SP hugely).

But we're talking here about S*A*P and not SP, and BI lose to SAP however you manage them.

You sure you're not remembering a test on SP rather than SAP? 3 defense makes a WORLD of difference... ;o

[anymapkoku]

Why wouold anyone get sap?
SP: Prove you've got a 80+ IQ by winning with al peasants
MP: Don't even bother getting sappers in MP.

[Kraxis]

If you do tests of head on fights, you have to make sure that you play as both sides equally.

The player seems to have an advantage at Medium and the AI at Hard. I always test at least ten times on Hard, five with each.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
If you do tests of head on fights, you have to make sure that you play as both sides equally.

The player seems to have an advantage at Medium and the AI at Hard. I always test at least ten times on Hard, five with each.

[/QUOTE]

Actually, the player has an advantage on easy, and the AI on expert. Medium and hard are the same in a head on fight. Though hard supposedly uses a better AI algorithm.

Either way it won't actually affect fighting ability, since the bonus/penalty is to morale only.

[Puzz3D]

This was posted by LongJohn:

"On the battle map, the a.i. gets progressively better up to hard level. On expert level, the only behaviour difference I can think of, is that it gets a bit more leeway to camp near the map edge if a suitable position is available."

"The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can't remember the exact figure).
On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on expert its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.
Additionally it gets +4 morale on expert, and the player gets +4 on easy."

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
This was posted by LongJohn:

"On the battle map, the a.i. gets progressively better up to hard level. On expert level, the only behaviour difference I can think of, is that it gets a bit more leeway to camp near the map edge if a suitable position is available."

"The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can't remember the exact figure).
On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on expert its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.
Additionally it gets +4 morale on expert, and the player gets +4 on easy."[/QUOTE]


/me puts foot in mouth. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif

Strange, because when I was testing SAP vs. chiv sergs a little while ago, I tried it on normal AND hard, and got the exact same results. I still have the data, too; I'll post it later.