View Full Version : Everyone's favourite disaster
Mikeus Caesar
06-02-2008, 12:08
And international joke, Zimbabwe.
I'm just reading a Times article on Zimbabwe, where it says the Central Bank has just introduced the '$1 billion note'. Further on in the article it is claimed that inflation is currently running at 1,700,000 percent!
Just how much longer can Zimbabwe keep going? Why is Mugabe still in office despite having obviously lost the elections? It's madness!
And for those interested, the article itself: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4036184.ece
You know if you manage to get your hands on one of those notes and wait until a revolution comes and lowers the inflation then you can become rich :idea2:
Alas, if (when) the revolution comes the new government will probably have to revalue the currency and declare the previous currency worthless. The Z$1 Billion notes will still be worth a bit as collector's items though I imagine, one of the comments in the article mentions people buying them on Ebay for more than their face value.
Just how much longer can Zimbabwe keep going?
Indeed, surely sooner or later the economy has to reach rock bottom, it can't keep on collapsing forever?
KukriKhan
06-02-2008, 16:10
In related news, Mr. Mugabe attends a UN Food and Agriculture summit (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7430421.stm) soon. Now that I understand as irony.
Like Khrushchev addressing an Anger Management seminar.
https://jimcee.homestead.com/18951.jpg
And international joke, Zimbabwe.
I'm just reading a Times article on Zimbabwe, where it says the Central Bank has just introduced the '$1 billion note'. Further on in the article it is claimed that inflation is currently running at 1,700,000 percent!
Just how much longer can Zimbabwe keep going? Why is Mugabe still in office despite having obviously lost the elections? It's madness!
And for those interested, the article itself: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4036184.ece
Realisticly it can't. Mugabe is still in office cause the army hasn't decided to get rid of him yet.
Geoffrey S
06-02-2008, 16:42
Probably more like: he's still in power because he is the only centralizing influence in the country. Like many other similar states, when the big man withdraws from everywhere except the capital, the rest couldn't care less and resort to the usual regionalism.
macsen rufus
06-02-2008, 16:51
The Z$1 Billion notes will still be worth a bit as collector's items
You would think so, however novelty value is not that great -- I have a few Reichmark notes with an obscene number of zeros on them. However, they were printed in such vast numbers due to the hyperinflation that they are ten a penny now. :bow:
However, they were printed in such vast numbers due to the hyperinflation that they are ten a penny now.
Still probably more than they were actually worth, though.
woad&fangs
06-22-2008, 18:31
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25311528
The opposition leader dropped out of the race because of violence and the only thing that anyone does is for some random US diplomat to make a "strongly worded phone call".:shame:
ICantSpellDawg
06-22-2008, 19:05
unbelievably absurd election.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25311528
The opposition leader dropped out of the race because of violence and the only thing that anyone does is for some random US diplomat to make a "strongly worded phone call".:shame:
Well what is it that anyone is supposed to do? To be blunt it seems the system is working well, dictator begins suppression of population, nationalization of farms (a formelythriving sector btw) and has begun intimidation and violence to stay in power.
Raise your hand if you thought mugabee was simply going to walk away :rolleyes:
Was anyone expecting their former colonial masters the UK to step back in and correct the problem?
Part of the problem with africa and the middle east is the collapse of the former empires that ruled these parts of the world as colonies. The firm hand came from abroad and it was easy to unite against it.
Now that its gone the next step forward is to devide along tribal lines once the glow of freedom breeds comparisson to others. Seems to me its going forward in a rather traditional manner, the people unite for the good of the nation, it will happen evenutally to the fomer colonies there just needs to be some pain, suffering and anguish.
However, I am all for the former european empires to go in and play police man, how about you? So a few million people have to die on the continent, shhhhhhh dont tell anyone though we wouldnt want to jepordize our entitlements at home to help clean up the messes we made.
Im almost done.
Internal factors are squeezing zimbabwe and there will be blood and sufferring but thus far this has followed suit with just about everyother former colony in africa. No surprises here, hope they get it sorted but it will probably take another civil war and thousands dead.
Hopefully this time the international community will come calling to the former european overlords of the continent and ask them to help clean it up. I'd prefer to avoid another rhuwanda myself.
Mikeus Caesar
06-23-2008, 02:11
Hopefully this time the international community will come calling to the former european overlords of the continent and ask them to help clean it up. I'd prefer to avoid another rhuwanda myself.
Too late.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gukurahundi
Back when the world was still singing its praises for Uncle Bob, he was busy massacring his fellow man. People praise the 'freedom fighters' who seized control of White-ruled African countries, but in reality they're all genocidal communist terrorists. Even Mandela. Now don't you guys be starting with the cries of 'racist' and 'nazi'. Mandela is not and should not be above criticism. But the main reason for Africa being the way it is today, including South Africa, which is very quickly taking the long fall to becoming a standard African country (death, disease, famine, war) isn't because of 'the evil imperialist white man' buggering everything up. It's because of idiot African culture where everyone has strict obedience first and foremost to their tribe. As long as the tribal mindset of Saharan and sub-Saharan Africa exists, it will forever be known as a humanitarian disaster on an epic scale.
EDIT: I thought i could add to this post, so i will.
It's because of idiot African culture where everyone has strict obedience first and foremost to their tribe.
In fairness, our European ancestors went through this phase as well. Pretty much everything leading up to the Enlightenment, when you think about it. There's not much moral difference between the Thirty Years' War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_years_war) and Rwanda, especially when you consider that between a third and 20% of Germany died.
I'm not saying hooray for African tribalism, mind you, I'm just saying that this is not a new problem that is unique to Africa. Most cultures went through the "let's kill everybody who disagrees with us" phase of tribalism before the Internet and 24-hour cable news.
If you've got a strong stomach, here's a firsthand account (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4192873.ece) of "reeducation":
Last weekend we had a big pungwe - a political indoctrination meeting - on the farm. It was after Mugabe had come to our little town of Chegutu, southwest of Harare, and addressed the crowd with threats of “war”. A pungwe starts when the shadows lengthen and the sun goes down and darkness falls over the land. It does not stop till after the sun has risen again.
All our workers had to go, as well as all their wives with babies and any children over the age of 12. Some of them didn't go; so the mob sent little bands of chanting youth militia with sticks to fetch the absentees, drag them out of their houses and beat them for non-attendance. Through the night we heard the chanting and the slogans and the re-education speeches ringing out into the cold darkness for hour after hour after hour. On and on it went, striking fear into my heart. I got up and paced around in the cold night, listening.
When the first birds began to sing, I thought: “How can these birds sing after such a night as this?” Then the birdsong was drowned out. There was a terrible noise like a swarm of bees. I knew the beatings had begun again and I listened helpless, tormented, in fear but praying fervently.
There's also a Flickr album of torture evidence, but I caution you that it really is not for the faint of heart. Documenting this sort of thing is important, since states love to cover up the mutilating they do, but it's sickening and heartrending to see. Seriously, this is not a RickRoll, this is bad stuff, so exercise caution. Link below the spoil.
Be advised, graphic images of torture victims in Zimbabwe (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sokwanele/sets/72157600853440301/).
Don Corleone
06-23-2008, 04:03
Thank you for the double warnings there Lemur. I actually flirted with the idea of looking at them and clicked your "More" button, but since you felt the need to insert a second warning, I passed. I admit it, there's a part of me that will always be a softie, and I just can't ever learn to accept things like this. I still get misty watching Hotel Rwanda.
Just makes me think that something has to be done, quickly if possible. :no:
Just makes me think that something has to be done, quickly if possible. :no:
Not to single you out Husar but Im dying to hear what everyone thinks should be done :inquisitive:
This has ugly civil war written all over it, and its par for the course in post colonial Africa. So what can we do? Sanction them? That would be wonderful for the economy. Send in peacekeepers? The AU is doing a splendid job in Dhafur....
Nah, we might have another potential blood bath(what was the last one Liberia?) but action requires running the gauntlet.
You act your a world power who is throwing there weight around yadda yadda, you dont do anything then your unethical swine. I'm thinking its going to be the later on this one, but hey Mugabe is in his 80's so the blood shed shouldnt last to long.
BTW, do they have any oil reserves? :toilet:
No oil AFAIK, but their old levels of food exports pre Mugabe's "reforms" would be good right about now, worldwide food prices being what they are.
Like Odin, I would very much like to hear any idea for what we could do about this man-made disaster. I'm sure there must be something we can do besides carpet bombing Harare or making "strongly worded phone calls" but I cannot for the life of me think what.
CountArach
06-23-2008, 13:15
Get the CIA back into its old habits?
Get the CIA back into its old habits?
:laugh4: yeah that would give the liberals and foriegners something else to bitch about for 10 years or so.
Im thinking, lets let the europeans figure out the african issues. Its there former colonies afterall, you know what I mean CA:wiseguy:
Pannonian
06-23-2008, 13:19
Getting South Africa to open the door might be a start. If South Africa refuses to condone action against Zimbabwe, the US is the only country in the world who can conceivably ignore this and take action anyway. However, if South Africa does agree that Mugabe is out of order and something needs to be done, then the regional power blocs plus the Commonwealth should be able to take care of the Zimbabwe situation fairly comfortably.
So the question is, why the heck is Mbeki continuing to shield this thug?
So what can we do? Sanction them?
Nah, short of an invasion there ain't much the west can do directly to Mugabe. However, if it weren't for subsidies from South Africa, Zimbabwe wouldn't even be able to totter along at the faltering rate they are now, so that's a starter.
Pressure the states who directly support Mugabe. Twist some arms hard. Still might not get us anywhere, but it's the most effective thing we could do.
Nope, no oil in Zimbabwe.
CountArach
06-23-2008, 13:22
:laugh4: yeah that would give the liberals and foriegners something else to bitch about for 10 years or so.
Oh like we needed an excuse :laugh4:
Im thinking, lets let the europeans figure out the african issues. Its there former colonies afterall, you know what I mean CA:wiseguy:
Seconded, not our problem now :2thumbsup:
Good luck Euroweenies!
So the question is, why the heck is Mbeki continuing to shield this thug?
My sense is that Mbeki is in the same boat as the rest of us, what can he do? You get rid of mugabe and institute reforms your essentially alienating the former war heros who will take up arms. Right now there isnt massive blood letting, Mbeki looks like he is playing for a unity government etc via conversation.
My hunch is that keeping mugabe happy = less violence.
Nah, short of an invasion there ain't much the west can do directly to Mugabe. However, if it weren't for subsidies from South Africa, Zimbabwe wouldn't even be able to totter along at the faltering rate they are now, so that's a starter.
Pressure the states who directly support Mugabe. Twist some arms hard. Still might not get us anywhere, but it's the most effective thing we could do.
Nope, no oil in Zimbabwe.
the problem I see here Lemur is that all roads lead to civil war, death and blood shed. The only thing that might stave that off is keeping the status quo. Whats the old saying? sometimes the devil you know is better then the devil you dont.
Sure mugabe is going to make it a police state/dictatorship but given the less then stellar record africa has at transitioning democracies that might be a fair price to pay.
Mikeus Caesar
06-23-2008, 13:32
So the question is, why the heck is Mbeki continuing to shield this thug?
Because if you'd do some deeper research into the political situation of sub-Saharan Africa, you'd find that ultimately, the 'freedom fighters' who rid South Africa of apartheid (which was indeed an evil system) are nothing more than communist terrorists, who were either backed by the USSR or China. Ultimately, Mbeki and Mugabe are good chums. Mbeki just pretends to show concern so as to make it appear to the rest of the world that he is still with us.
God help them all when Zuma comes into power in SA. They all quietly support the removal, if not outright genocide of African whites. And look where that has gotten Zimbabwe...
CountArach
06-23-2008, 13:36
Breaking News!
It is all the United States' fault (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/23/2283456.htm)
The Iraqi Zimbabwean Propaganda Information Minister said it. It must be true!
Zimbabwe's Information Minister has accused the United States of spending millions of dollars to fuel violence in his country and of planning to train insurgents.
In an interview in the state-controlled Herald newspaper, Sikhanyiso Ndlovu said that the United States would be providing transport costs and paramilitary training for millions of Zimbabweans outside the country after Opposition Leader Morgan Tsvangirai lost the presidential election.
He also accused US Ambassador James McGee, who has been vocal about government violence and intimidation against opposition voters, of failing to fulfil his duties.
The United States, he said, was putting in millions of dollars to fuel violence.
and the plot thickens (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080623/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe&printer=1;_ylt=AvrOljE58ATvoVHH2WM8MzIV6w8F)
Text: Dutch Foreign Ministry: Tsvangirai seeks refuge 8 minutes ago
Zimbabwean opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai sought refuge Monday at the Dutch Embassy in Harare, the Dutch Foreign Ministry said, shortly after police took away 60 people from his party's headquarters.
The developments came a day after Tsvangirai withdrew from Friday's presidential runoff against longtime leader Robert Mugabe, saying harassment and violence against opposition supporters had made the balloting impossible.
Tsvangirai entered the Dutch Embassy shortly after the police raid, Dutch television reported. It was not clear how long he intended to remain in the embassy building.
"I can confirm that Tsvangirai is currently in the Dutch Embassy," said spokesman Bart Rijs.
Rijs said he could not speculate why Tsvangirai chose the Dutch Embassy. But he noted that the Netherlands was a strong supporter of human rights groups in Zimbabwe although it did not finance any political parties.
Opposition spokesman Nqobizitha Mlilo refused to comment on the report and referred callers to The Hague.
Tsvangirai had applied for a new passport earlier this month and Zimbabwean officials refused, saying he lacked proper police clearance. His current passport has not expired but its pages are full.
On Sunday, Tsvangirai pulled out of the violence-wracked presidential runoff, declaring that the election was no longer credible and the loss of life among his supporters was simply too high
The announcement cleared the way for Mugabe to continue his 28-year rule, despite mounting condemnation from even loyal African allies that the former independence hero has become a despot who has bankrupted the country's once thriving economy.
Zimbabwean Information Minister Sikhanyiso Ndlovu said the runoff would go ahead in accordance with the constitution — and to prove Zimbabweans' support for Mugabe, who has held power since independence from Britain in 1980.
Tsvangirai won the first round of the presidential election on March 29, but did not gain an outright majority against 84-year-old Mugabe. That campaign was generally peaceful, but the runoff has been overshadowed by violence and intimidation, especially in rural areas. Independent human rights groups say 85 people have died and tens of thousands have been displaced from their homes, most of them opposition supporters.
Once Mugabe wins the runoff is there a cleansing of opposition or do they attempt to form a unity government on his terms?
My guess is cleanse
Geoffrey S
06-23-2008, 16:50
So the question is, why the heck is Mbeki continuing to shield this thug?
Because like every other African government, that of South Africa is scared witless of the consequences huge population displacements would have on neighbouring countries should civil war erupt. They can't cope with that. Best keep the violence localized in their opinion.
Pannonian
06-23-2008, 19:11
Because like every other African government, that of South Africa is scared witless of the consequences huge population displacements would have on neighbouring countries should civil war erupt. They can't cope with that. Best keep the violence localized in their opinion.
I can't find it now, but there was an article a few days ago where the SADC, with the notable exception of South Africa, called on Mugabe to stop the intimidation and allow free elections. Angola was one of the governments on that list, and IIRC there was Namibia and at least a couple of others named.
Geoffrey S
06-23-2008, 19:39
Or else they'd do what, exactly...?
Or else they'd do what, exactly...?
Get the mighty UN to issue a proclomation? :thumbsdown: Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080624/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe;_ylt=AnjSGL3OPdJeVa96OtTO.1hvaA8F)
Geoffrey S
06-24-2008, 14:02
Well, yeah. Two sides to this:
1. No African nation is willing to risk civil war and masses of refugees. That, and the already pointed out solidarity between African leaders/comrades.
2. No major power is willing to allow another to get a foothold in Africa, so won't allow non-African foreign troops stationed there. And they don't want to, certainly not in the necessary numbers.
Thus, no-one does a thing.
No major power is willing to allow another to get a foothold in Africa, so won't allow non-African foreign troops stationed there.
That sounds a bit late-1800s to me. I think it's much more a case of no Western power wants to explain body bags to their own population for the sake of a landlocked little African hellhole that has no oil. Heck, look at how hard it's been to explain Iraq to Western populations. Now imagine doing the same rope trick with no oil, no Israel and no WMDs.
I can't even imagine a Western leader stupid enough to want to wade into that.
Geoffrey S
06-24-2008, 15:20
1800s? Do you think China would tolerate a strong US military presence in the heart of Africa, or vice versa?
Put that guy in the embassy of a country ruled by anything other then the dutch. Who is doing the talking on behalf of this guy, the dutch minister of development-aid, not the minister of foreign affairs that is just bizare to the extreme. I can see where this is going :no:
1800s? Do you think China would tolerate a strong US military presence in the heart of Africa, or vice versa?
No, but I don't think that's really the issue, either. If China were so unwise as to physically invade, say, the Congo, I think America would protest strongly at the U.N., and then sit back and laugh our butts off as China got sucked into a neo-colonial nightmare.
If we're talking about physically invading places to exert our influence, yeah, that's kinda 1800s realpolitik; as the Iraq misadventure has demonstrated so fully, invading and occupying nations ain't what it used to be.
Part of the problem is communications. When people can document just about anything and spread it just about anywhere, doing the things a colonial empire needs to do without getting caught becomes impossible. There are other reasons, but let's leave it at that for now.
Crazed Rabbit
07-03-2008, 09:08
The AU welcomes Mugabe: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4242895.ece
What more needs be said?
CR
The AU welcomes Mugabe: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4242895.ece
What more needs be said?
CR
Come on Rabbit, discussing the undemocratic nature of Mugabe’s rule at a conference held in Mubarak’s Egypt? That would just be in poor taste. ~;)
Besides, with member states like Egypt, Algeria, Ethiopia, Tunisia, Sudan, Gabon, the Central African Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Angola, Chad, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Republic of the Congo, Uganda, Djibouti, Swaziland, Somalia, Libya, and Lesotho, Mugabe should feel right at home.
Tribesman
07-03-2008, 10:56
Come on Dariush , he would feel at more home if his dictatorship was getting billions of dollars in military and economic aid and his police aperatus was getting sent people to torture as a vital ally in the war on terror .
What more needs be said?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Somebody Else
07-04-2008, 08:44
I was asked what I thought the best thing to do about Rhodesia Zimbabwe was at an interview a little while ago. My view was that intervention in some way was required, and has been for a very long time. It's just a pity that the only countries that seem inclined to do that sort of thing are rather tied up at present. The Commies Russians and Chinese have (I believe) the available manpower - but where's the self-interest?
As has been alluded to earlier. The best thing for the people of the country would be for someone to strike oil.
SE
As has been alluded to earlier. The best thing for the people of the country would be for someone to strike oil.
Would it? When a valuable natural resource is found in an African country, it doesn't tend to be good news for the locals. Finding diamonds didn't exactly do the people of DRC much good, did it?
Besides, Zimbabwe already had a valuable export which Mugabe managed to destroy quite adequately, so I'm sure he'd manage the same with oil.
Somebody Else
07-04-2008, 09:03
Would it? When a valuable natural resource is found in an African country, it doesn't tend to be good news for the locals. Finding diamonds didn't exactly do the people of DRC much good, did it?
Besides, Zimbabwe already had a valuable export which Mugabe managed to destroy quite adequately, so I'm sure he'd manage the same with oil.
I hate having to explain throw-away comments like this. I was alluding to the way that the majority of people believe that the one and only reason we the West invaded Mesopotamia Iraq was for oil. I do actually prefer to think that the institution I'm joining operates for less selfish reasons.
(Gods, I feel so... unclean, saying something that's on the verge of what I feel)
SE
Yep, sorry, was posting over breakfast again.:oops:
Really must remember to be awake when reading...
Zimbabwe introduces the $100 billion banknote (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/07/19/zimbabwe.banknotes/index.html) — not quite enough for a loaf of bread, but it will get you four oranges.
Crazed Rabbit
07-20-2008, 06:17
Hmm, it seems behind all evil, lurks Jimmy Carter. (http://www.nysun.com/opinion/carters-role-in-zimbabwe/58232/)
CR
Hey, you know what's a good idea when your country is plunged into hyperinflation, starvation and total chaos? Pressure foreign firms to leave! (http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11777011&fsrc=RSS) That will work, sure it will!
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