View Full Version : Chavez being Chavez
The Black Ship
06-04-2008, 02:12
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7432895.stm
In the Amercian sport lexicon we have a saying "that's just Manny being Manny". It's used to describe the often eccentric, and usually ego-centric behaviour of Manny Ramirez of the Boston Red Sox. Great player, but greater loon.
That's the only anology I came think of for this latest move by Chavez:dizzy2: It's hard for me to see anyone come to his defence on this one.:inquisitive:
Crazed Rabbit
06-04-2008, 02:44
Mr Correa compared the law to the Patriot Act in the United States, which gave US law enforcement agencies greater powers to intercept communications and investigate suspected terrorists on American soil in the wake of the attacks on 11 September 2001.
Mr Chavez - who called the US Patriot Act a "dictatorial law" - denied the Venezuelan law would threaten freedoms, saying it falls into "a framework of great respect for human rights".
LoL.
Now we just need to wait for JAG to defend the "Great man" that is Hugo.
CR
CrossLOPER
06-04-2008, 02:53
OK, so it looks like he liked the Patriot Act after all. :shrug:
LittleGrizzly
06-04-2008, 03:04
I didn't like it when Bush did it and i don't like it when Chavez does it. But will anyone defend Chavez decision ?
Don Corleone
06-04-2008, 03:47
I didn't like it when Bush did it and i don't like it when Chavez does it. But will anyone defend Chavez decision ?
Hmmm.... who could it be... I have two candidates in mind...
It will either be:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/180px-Idaho_population_map.png
OR
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/JAG.jpg
The Black Ship
06-04-2008, 04:39
Mr Correa's just plain wrong with his Patriot Act analogy. When's the first time a judge in the US was ever prosecuted for not cooperating with intelligence groups? There's not even a threat of such an act! Also, the Patriot act wasn't enacted by decree, but by Congress.
I know I'm quibbling...I'm sure Chavez can get his decree passed in HIS congress too.;)
Hmmm.... who could it be... I have two candidates in mind...
It will either be:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/180px-Idaho_population_map.png
OR
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/JAG.jpg
Patiently awaits Tribesman.
InsaneApache
06-04-2008, 09:47
I can't see what all the fuss is about, after all, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. As for the secret police, that's just a pseudonym for social workers, here to help you. :yes:
LittleGrizzly
06-04-2008, 09:52
Mr Correa's just plain wrong with his Patriot Act analogy. When's the first time a judge in the US was ever prosecuted for not cooperating with intelligence groups? There's not even a threat of such an act!
From a quick scan through the article and a rough memory of what the patriot act contains Chavez does seem to be passing a worse act, though they seem similar in reference to wiretaps ect.
The first graphic is kinda hard to decipher Don, I guess it's about tribes or so.
That said I've been longing for some posts of Tribesman lately and I don't really care what they're about. :laugh4:
CountArach
06-04-2008, 10:48
The first graphic is kinda hard to decipher Don, I guess it's about tribes or so.
It's Idaho. I would normally defend the guy, but this sort of thing is indefensible.
HoreTore
06-04-2008, 10:56
He might be trying to warm up to an alliance with the republicans...
He might be trying to warm up to an alliance with the republicans...
Forge the iron while it is hot - this Chavez is a clever guy.
Pannonian
06-04-2008, 12:15
Patiently awaits Tribesman.
AFAIK Tribesy isn't exactly a Chavez fan.
Checks and balances? :inquisitive:
Looks like Venezuela can soon sign up for membership in the axis of evil.
If even judges are required to work with a certain agency then that agency gains way too much power, time for a rebellion I'd say.
LittleGrizzly
06-04-2008, 12:52
I don't see why tribesman's been mentioned once or twice, Jag on the other hand has defended Chavez a few times, im sure everyones seen that quote in someones signature Jag saying the great man that is Hugo Chavez (almost put his name as huge chavez, potential porn name i reckon) but iirc alot of the times when chavez has been criticised and jag has been defending him i feel jag has been right, as alot of the criticism directed at chavez is because he's left wing and because he's against americas foriegn policy, thats where me chavez (and jag probably) share policy, this is something similar to the patriot act and i don't think jag is such an idiot to be against that but for this just because its Chavez instead of Bush
AFAIK Tribesy isn't exactly a Chavez fan.
Not saying he is.
There is one thing Venezuela has that we can envy.
She has the cheapest fuel prices in the world. If I am not miscalculating, a liter of petrol cost 0.029 USD. That is 3 cents for 1 liter of petrol. Price for a gallon (US) would be 11 cents.
Louis VI the Fat
06-06-2008, 02:09
There is one thing Venezuela has that we can envy.
She has the cheapest fuel prices in the world. If I am not miscalculating, a liter of petrol cost 0.029 USD. That is 3 cents for 1 liter of petrol. Price for a gallon (US) would be 11 cents.Enviable, certainly.
But clever? Car ownership is a privilige for the rich half of Venezuela. They are the real benefactors. And consequently, they waste Venz' precious oil resources on huge cars and other luxeries. The poor only benefit a little from low prices. And all things considered, they net lose out a lot. They would benefit much more if Chavez sold their oil for $100 a barrel to the Americans and then spended the money on some real social progress for the poor.
Great man, Chavez. Great thinker too, certainly as great an economist as the Cuban, North Korean and Soviet Union leaders. Who all, like Chavez, brought tremendous benefits to their poor masses by bravely resisting fascist capitalist imperialism.
Crazed Rabbit
06-06-2008, 17:57
He might be trying to warm up to an alliance with the republicans...
What a clever star to hitch your wagon to.
CR
He is a great man, a great leader and a man with whom the whole world should look to as an example of the struggle needed and yet, still possible against American 'realist' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_realism) aggresion. Everyone seems very aware that I have this view of him, yet for some insanse reason forget the fact that I have consistently been possibly the most liberal - in the true sense of the word - member here, I defend civil rights, human rights and civil liberties to the hilt, why would anyone think that an outrageous breach of these values would be defended by me?
What people should be asking is why it isn't defended by those people who support the exact same measures in their own countries and indeed would love an exact same law in thier own country - and have argued for it here - to defend themselves and their nation from international terrorism. Please could they tell me why when Chavez and Venezuela enacts law which puts so called security over civil liberties it is an outrageous act of a fascist dictator, but when the US, UK and other Western nations do exactly the same, it is a democratic system looking out for the small guy?! Absolute hypocrisy, and the desperation that some people have when looking at reasons to bash Chavez, even when they ostensibly agree, leaves certain people with no credit what so ever.
I on the other hand, clearly completely disagree with the policy. No breach of civil liberties, by any government, in ways such as this can be accepted, and there are a number of reasons which I will not bore people with, who have seen them a hundred times before.
Oh and TBS - Manny is no loon, he is one of the greatest modern baseball players ever to grace the game, sure he has been a stroppy thing over the last, er well, long time... But he is my favorite player - and manny, manny others (haha oh arn't I funny) - because he plays the game hard, even though it might not look like he does. He loves the game more than anyone ever gives him credit for and plays and works harder than most people imagine he ever could - to say he is a loon pretty much just falls into a tired old sterotype of the guy. I love the guy, what a great player and a decent person.
Crazed Rabbit
06-07-2008, 18:30
JAG, I can't think of any western country having a law like this. Please point it out if you can (and the PATRIOT Act is nothing like this). This law is in worse in so many ways, yet you call the man who wishes it 'great'.
As to why people expected you to defend it, maybe it's because you scorned the people of Venezuela for not backing a recent referendum to give more power to Chavez.
I have consistently been possibly the most liberal - in the true sense of the word - member here, I defend civil rights, human rights and civil liberties to the hilt, why would anyone think that an outrageous breach of these values would be defended by me?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Do you support the huge amount of CCTV's in Britain? You said you value safety over liberty, so don't pretend to be a staunch defender of civil rights.
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.
CR
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Do you support the huge amount of CCTV's in Britain? You said you value safety over liberty, so don't pretend to be a staunch defender of civil rights.
EXCUSE ME?! Now that has tyo be a bait, how you could get someones position so fundamentally WRONG, when they have been posting here since you started on these boards, AMAZES me. Supporting CCTV in Britain?! Safety over liberty?! YOU :daisy: what?!
You don't even deserve the time it takes to post a response.
EXCUSE ME?! Now that has tyo be a bait, how you could get someones position so fundamentally WRONG, when they have been posting here since you started on these boards, AMAZES me. Supporting CCTV in Britain?! Safety over liberty?! YOU :daisy: what?!
You don't even deserve the time it takes to post a response.
Someone didn't have their Wheaties this morning.
Crazed Rabbit
06-07-2008, 21:05
Oh my.
Guess I touched a nerve. As for safety over liberty, just read your posts in the thread/poll on whether safety or liberty is more important. You were arguing that having laws forcing us to wear seat belts makes us freer.
CR
Well, Chavez made a ridiculous move. I can think better things for doing the same thing.
HoreTore
06-08-2008, 11:20
You were arguing that having laws forcing us to wear seat belts makes us freer.
Yes. The real issues in this world. War, peace, hunger, nuclear weapons and seatbelt laws.
How can anyone care about seatbelt laws...?
InsaneApache
06-08-2008, 11:26
I thought the thread was about Chavez being well on the road to becoming (another) socialist dictator.
Tribesman
06-09-2008, 02:11
Damn I thought this was gonna be about banning candidates from the election ....oh well
Chavez seems to be creating problems for himself with his own people.
Let him continue to demonstrate his true agenda and the people of his nation might decide that his form of government is no better then the last dictator and vote him out of office by the ballot or the bullet.
Its up to them to decide how their nation will be governed.
The Black Ship
06-11-2008, 03:07
Of course he could just go all Mugabe on them and make any future free election difficult to impossible...
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 03:40
Hey Black ship , I don't want to spoil your topic , but you do know the proposed security/intelligence law in Venezuela wasn't made law don't you ?
PanzerJaeger
06-11-2008, 03:56
Hey Black ship , I don't want to spoil your topic , but you do know the proposed security/intelligence law in Venezuela wasn't made law don't you ?
How does that spoil the topic? It was clearly an example of Chavez being Chavez.
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 09:39
How does that spoil the topic? It was clearly an example of Chavez being Chavez.
You mean Chavez being Chavez by trying to bring in a set of laws that opponents say is like laws you have in your country .
Doesn't that mean Chavez is being Bush ?
You love Bush Panzer so you must really adore Hugo .
CountArach
06-11-2008, 09:46
Yes. The real issues in this world. War, peace, hunger, nuclear weapons and seatbelt laws.
Oh my God that was hilarious! :laugh4:
@ CR here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1940712&postcount=23) - I specifically remember JAG saying that he wanted to tear up his Labour Party membership when Blair announced the CCTV cameras.
InsaneApache
06-11-2008, 09:53
He didn't though, did he?
PanzerJaeger
06-11-2008, 10:32
You mean Chavez being Chavez by trying to bring in a set of laws that opponents say is like laws you have in your country .
Doesn't that mean Chavez is being Bush ?
You love Bush Panzer so you must really adore Hugo .
Wow, you're off your game tonight.
Needless to say, you've reached some interesting, allbeit completely false, conclusions. :inquisitive:
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 10:46
Needless to say, you've reached some interesting, allbeit completely false, conclusions.
Very true , Bush still has his strange security laws in place so he isn't being a Hugo is he :yes:
Well spotted , you really are on form Panzer .:2thumbsup:
He didn't though, did he?
No, I mollify my clear authoritarian leaning, big brother wanting, put-a-chip-in-every-person-at-birth-and-watch-them-whenever-they-move, anti-liberal ways by being a member of the most vehmently liberal pressure groups there are. I was a member of Liberty before I was a member of the Labour party and have actively supported it far more than the Labour party as a whole, likewise with Amnesty International. Other groups, such as those highlighting penal reform and also others tackling fascists. It is quite possible for me not to break with a party, in which I agree with the vast majority of the members on a vast majority of the issues, to support liberal issues.
What annoyed me so much before, is that certain people here - including CR - do not want to listen to your views or take into account what you state you believe in, they simply have a narrow minded view of what I must believe and thus cannot understand how I can possibly be a liberal. I hope others understand that it is quite possible to believe that government is a vehicle for good and change for the better, without believing that CCTV's on every corner is a good thing, ID cards are a must and security stop and checks on people who have done nothing wrong are justified under any circumstance, when in reality they are not only fundamentally flawed but an outrageous and disgusting blot on what we call our free and democratic society. Funnily enough I seem to remember arguing these points not only more consistently than CR and his ilk but also often against them on these issues! The mind boggles - and that is why I was so pee'd off.
HoreTore
06-11-2008, 10:57
Well said, JAG. :2thumbsup:
InsaneApache
06-11-2008, 13:56
No, I mollify my clear authoritarian leaning, big brother wanting, put-a-chip-in-every-person-at-birth-and-watch-them-whenever-they-move, anti-liberal ways by being a member of the most vehmently liberal pressure groups there are. I was a member of Liberty before I was a member of the Labour party and have actively supported it far more than the Labour party as a whole, likewise with Amnesty International. Other groups, such as those highlighting penal reform and also others tackling fascists. It is quite possible for me not to break with a party, in which I agree with the vast majority of the members on a vast majority of the issues, to support liberal issues.
What annoyed me so much before, is that certain people here - including CR - do not want to listen to your views or take into account what you state you believe in, they simply have a narrow minded view of what I must believe and thus cannot understand how I can possibly be a liberal. I hope others understand that it is quite possible to believe that government is a vehicle for good and change for the better, without believing that CCTV's on every corner is a good thing, ID cards are a must and security stop and checks on people who have done nothing wrong are justified under any circumstance, when in reality they are not only fundamentally flawed but an outrageous and disgusting blot on what we call our free and democratic society. Funnily enough I seem to remember arguing these points not only more consistently than CR and his ilk but also often against them on these issues! The mind boggles - and that is why I was so pee'd off.
You forgot about locking people with no charges, denying them access to a solicitor and hiding the fact that they are locked up to their families. Not to mention spying on families using anti-terror legislation because they might have fibbed about where they live. Pissing about with the democratic process so that for the first time in my lifetime we have prosecutions for electoral fraud. Then there is the revealing taxation policy of screwing the poorest of society to fund tax breaks for people like me who don't need them. Perhaps you also agree with Browns car tax policy of again hitting the poorest off with a retrospective tax on cars 7 years and older. Oh yes, very progressive socialist and liberal policies. You, as ever, astound me in your blindness. :shame:
PanzerJaeger
06-11-2008, 20:00
Very true , Bush still has his strange security laws in place so he isn't being a Hugo is he :yes:
Well spotted , you really are on form Panzer .:2thumbsup:
Your attempts to change the subject are revealing. What will you do when you can't defend dictators with the standard BUSH iZ EVIlZ TOOO!! line? Less than a year to go and you'll actually have to come up with something substinative.. :laugh4:
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 20:33
Your attempts to change the subject are revealing. What will you do when you can't defend dictators with the standard BUSH iZ EVIlZ TOOO!! line?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Oh dear , poor panzer .
Tell you what Panzer have a little challenge , you find a post of me defending a dictator , and I will find a couple of dozen by you singing the praises of dictators .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
ICantSpellDawg
06-11-2008, 22:08
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Oh dear , poor panzer .
Tell you what Panzer have a little challenge , you find a post of me defending a dictator , and I will find a couple of dozen by you singing the praises of dictators .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
George Bush is a dictator... blah blah blah.
Alvaro Uribe is a dictator... blach blah blah
It's like listening to a broken and warped old record.
Tribesman
06-11-2008, 22:26
George Bush is a dictator... blah blah blah.
Alvaro Uribe is a dictator... blach blah blah
It's like listening to a broken and warped old record.
slight problem there tuff , while I have called Bush many things I have never called him dictator , and while I have railed against Uribe over term limits terrorist links drug dealing associates and corruption I have never called him a dictator either .
Perhaps your record is playing backwards:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
CountArach
06-12-2008, 06:12
You forgot about locking people with no charges, denying them access to a solicitor and hiding the fact that they are locked up to their families. Not to mention spying on families using anti-terror legislation because they might have fibbed about where they live. Pissing about with the democratic process so that for the first time in my lifetime we have prosecutions for electoral fraud. Then there is the revealing taxation policy of screwing the poorest of society to fund tax breaks for people like me who don't need them. Perhaps you also agree with Browns car tax policy of again hitting the poorest off with a retrospective tax on cars 7 years and older. Oh yes, very progressive socialist and liberal policies. You, as ever, astound me in your blindness. :shame:
Did you read his post at all? :inquisitive:
InsaneApache
06-12-2008, 10:01
Yes.
Crazed Rabbit
06-13-2008, 16:50
Sorry JAG - I didn't remember your position against CCTVs. But to be fair, I did ask you your position on them.
And you did say that having seat belt laws gives us more freedom, in a sort of Orwellian doublespeak. And you were defending the EU's attempt to steamroll their way over the people of Europe to a new powerful government.
So I don't really think of you as the most classically liberal person here.
CR
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