View Full Version : C.A...............what is going on???
Fearless
10-23-2002, 15:28
I'm slowly getting disillusioned with the whole MTW concept. Everyone is still waiting for the promised patch and now TotalWar.com forum is down.
The game has been out for 2 months and we are still waiting for this wonderous patch. I check the forum every day and from what I read there is a lot that needs to be addressed with this game. Thou the quality of this game is way above Shogun it seems to lack the feeling of achievement and conquest. Diplomacy sucks!........no matter what you do the world will be against you. Factual history is fine but lets remember this is a game and as such should entertain. We all love to build great empires and make friends on the way just to stab them in the back when WE are ready. However the A1 knows this from the outset and deprives us of this moment.
There's talk of an expansion pack to tweek the whole issue but hey!........we haven't even got the patch yet so what chance of an expansion pack!!
That's it I've had my moan I'll just keep reading everybody else's gripes!
Swoosh So
10-23-2002, 15:43
I can see why your hacked off QUAKEIII about 20 patches, and they still improve it even when they are working on new games
Swooooooosh
Fearless
10-23-2002, 17:38
...........and I'm complaining!!!!!!!!!
Quote Originally posted by Fearless:
Diplomacy sucks!........no matter what you do the world will be against you. Factual history is fine but lets remember this is a game and as such should entertain. We all love to build great empires and make friends on the way just to stab them in the back when WE are ready. However the A1 knows this from the outset and deprives us of this moment.[/QUOTE]
In fact, realistically speaking, it's quite rare to have a small, underdog nation ATTACKING without provocation a long-time ally ten times greater and twenty times more powerfull than them.
So even historically and realistically speaking, the "me vs world syndrom" is stupid.
everything is stupid when you look at it from the right/wrong perspective.
but i thought the ally thing was working reasonably well in MTW...i can remember that in STW they would always attack you if you left an area 'undefended'. In MTW factions seem to be more respectful
Agree.
This is getting old. I fired up a campaign last night only to have the crusade tracking bug completely throw the game. This morning I find the patch is still in Q/A (being negotiated, huh?), the .com forums are still down.
Two months of on again, off again gameplay. It's hard to sit down and play MTW knowing that at any minute the thing will CTD, crusades will hose the whole game for years and years. Certain factions have uber-troops, others can't tech like others due to bugs.
Fearless
10-23-2002, 17:56
Yeh! the ally thing works OK! until you step over that certain line than WHAM! everyone is at your throat!!
Example: Your allied with severeal factions. France attacks..........next thing everyone is on the band wagon breaking alliances and basically wanting a piece of the action! You fall out of favour with the Pope and all you were doing was farming and just being an all round good guy! (I won't mention the underhanded way of building of great armies)
As I said previously, that is what most of us like to do before we put the "Boot in" but the A1 has taken that lovely concept away..........Shame!!
starkhorn
10-23-2002, 18:28
Well yeah I know the fact that everyone attacking thing is unhistorical and not logical at all.
However, if the AI never attacked you en mass then one can easily take out each faction one after another....which would be a fairly easy thing to do. Then you get people complaining that the game is boring and that there isn't enough of a challenge.
I think the "me vs the World" thing was put in as a feature to ensure that the game would always be a challenge...regardless of the amount of map conquered.
I think it's difficult for CA to be able to appease the "Make it more historical/diplomacy" and the "Make it more of a challenge" camps.
I think they've done a decent enough job of trying to keep both happy.
Rather than just complain, does anyone have any good ideas on how to improve the historical whilst keeping it a challenge ?
Sjakihata
10-23-2002, 18:36
The main difference in Shogun and Medieval, diplomatically speaking is, that in shogun it is CLANS and in medieval it is countries! I would too attack an empty area if I was a clan, but I would to a much greater degree consider attacking if I was a country!
And Fearless, I do not care if my empire is big or small, I enjoy the game much more if it follows historical accuracy and interaction with the AI !!!
And yes, you are able to be allied. Of course if you are Spain and make an alliance with the almohads, they will turn against you, when the moment arise!
Prodigal
10-23-2002, 18:46
Quote Originally posted by Fearless:
and now TotalWar.com forum is down.[/QUOTE]
Yeah & no reply if you try an contact them either. And what the hell would be wrong with a, "it'll be out in the 1st 1/4 of next year" just a bloody guesstimate would be alright, rather than the "these are all the goddies", but we're not going to give you a clue about when you'll actually see them.
Swoosh So
10-23-2002, 18:52
Id like to see something posted about the official site, whats happening with it? will they delay the patch till its back up?
I think we can assume GilJaysmith is watching this thread, and I've felt he's done his best to keep the community informed.
To Gil:
At this point you're probably under a lot of pressure to get the patch out and at the same time not say anything prematurely to the community.
How about this? Ask your management what is worse; to say something to the community even if it has to be nuanced and qualified or to say nothing at all and let the whole project suffer as the direct result of the community becoming more and more disillusioned?
Some people will always try to turn estimates into iron-clad promises, but I think a lot of the core community here is more sophisticated than that. Most of us are veteran gamers who have been through lots of "patch waits" and know how the process is "fuzzy" at best.
So how about it Gil? I know you must be answerable to your management, but you and they must know that totally leaving the community in the dark cannot be good for anyone.
Keep testing your patch (our patch) and get it right. Just give the rest of us an (approximate, if necessary) idea of what is going on.
Thanks.
Goodridge
10-23-2002, 20:39
Well said.
------------------
Kyle Goodridge
Sorry, Gil. Found your post of this morning under the "Missing in Action Devs" thread after doing a search on your user name. Thanks for the update. Hope you're feeling better.
Wolfgrin
10-23-2002, 20:48
I agree. Beautifully stated. Most of the gamers in this forum seem pretty sensitive to development pressures and most of us want the patch to be right. However, an approximation on the release would help us plan our approach to the game. For instance, I'm playing the hell out of it, right now. If I found out the patch was another few weeks out, I would put the game away, so I don't burn out before I can enjoy it with all its intended features working properly. Of course, if we find out it will be released this week, I need to get to the store and buy a magnum of champagne.
just give them all a break, like they said, they have done the programing for the patch, its not up to them anymore, so lay off it a while. Sure the game has bugs, but i still play it, A LOT, and i enjoy every minute of it. although i would like a patch, i would just as much like people to stop asking for one
Yes it is an Activision issue now, rather than CA. But what is it? Three weeks since we were told they had sent it to Activision? Perhaps it got put away and forgotten???
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
smap1024
10-23-2002, 21:59
juz so there is no perfect balance i reckon. i think when i played alpha centauri and maybe even civilisation the AI does the same thing too, like if u get too big lotsa pple gonna makes things diffcult for u.
i am currently playing a English game juz owning the isles and flanders, and i am allied to everyone except turkey. no biggie since i am a "small" fish huh.
everyone's juz falling over themselves to marry a princess to my sons. man.......
if anything i would say the "worse" thing is that AI cannot dig itself out of a gut when it has 1 province left.
watch the danes especially. with royal knights costing 62 gold i think for mantainence, the excess royal princes affects every single AI faction left with 1 province.
no new buildings, no new units....forever.
i wouldn't say its bad programming but as a human player, my options are to assasinate my current heirs and disband all the royal knights and then try to expand, a tall order even from the human perspective.
pretty nasty too, makes the re-emegrence of factions pointless unless its 5 ++ provinces converting at the same time.
like in my current game france only have britanny (inn and fort for 20-30 years) and a ton of heirs and nuthing else i kinda wondered if i will be doing them a favor by killing them off actually http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Beating a dead horse but, Hey, I paid my $50, I can bitch. Dammit, if they would just would just give an eta. Then I would not have to check this board twice an hour every day to see if the fking patch is out. Maybe I'll get lucky and Duke Nuke'm Forever will come out and take my mind off MTW. Maybe when I beat the game 3 months later, I can check this board and maybe the patch will be out. Damn! I wish I could get a life and lose intrest in this game.
Swoosh So
10-23-2002, 22:12
Take a deep breath........ logon to the shogun server and play! Nothing wrong with abit of shoggy mania, Im offline and id give my left leg for a good shoggy session!
I know, lets start bombarding Activision with our whines! If it's out of CA's hands (even though they're still gagged) we're nagging the wrong company. If 1/4 of us email Activision tech support and bitch about the patch, maybe, just maybe... never mind, probably not.
I asked anyway. I didn't mention the Org, was vauge on where I got my info, and was polite. Don't want to disrespect the board or the devs.
The united way, "Together, We Can Make A Difference..."
https://activision.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/activision.cfg/php/enduser/home.php
Having worked with Activision on my personal issue IMO that is "pissing in the wind". On another issue the diplomacy is really quite unrealistic and mostly a waste of time. Once you get to a certain "level" in the game it is quite obvious the entire world is lining up against you. I suppose they are doing this in the name of AI play balance. It is just not logical that a country you are not at war with who is fighting many of the same enemies you are would not ally with you or even worse attack you even if they are much smaller in size. How many times have you started a game allied with another country and even helped and fought their enemies for a 100+ years and all of a sudden BOOM they attack you. There is no loyalty factor to a friend at all. As a human player you think in those kind of terms. I typically never attack an ally and do all I can to help them. But eventually you know they will attack you at some point in time. It is painfully obvious that no matter what you do there is a "trigger" in the game and it is you against the world. There should be the ability to build a "coalition" of friendly nations that contirbute to your victory if you are willing to put in the time and effort to accomplish it. Instead it always boils down to "brute force". Not very subtle. I have gotten to the point I don't make any overtures to anyone and just play this as a "battle game".
[This message has been edited by Saracen (edited 10-23-2002).]
Damn, I was trying to start a flood of bitching to Activision, deflecting away the crap from the devs since its out of their hands anyway. That failed miserably.
But, if the patch work is in fact done, and Deactivision has it, what are the devs doing now? Are they already working on the next patch, or the expansion pack, maybe? Seems with all the shit they've had to wade through here (and at work apparently, Bad Boss!) If it were me, I'd tell every body to go to Hades and take a vacation.
In the end, no patch, bad working conditions, poor communication, I think maybe its time for me to move on. I hear that Free Cell game is fun.
I'm thankful that I haven't suffered from bugs but I did notice how boring the 1087 campaign is because mainly there's nothing built around that time. No Feudal Knights, no real buildings, etc.
ENTER: THE 1092 CAMPAIGN
I modified the 1087 campaign and turned it into a far more historically accurate 1092 campaign that puts you right into the heart of "Crusade Season" and the "Age Feudal Knights."
Here are the changes:
I've been trying to modify the game so that it can be closer to being historically accurate, so I did a search on the internet and found this map of Europe in 1092 A.D.
http://www.croatianmall.com/lupic/belmonte/middle_ages/a1092eu.gif
I modified the Early Period to correspond with the information on the above map.
This new Early Period is the most accurate map in MTW.
Following are the changes I made:
- Hungary, Novgorod, Sicilian, and Aragonese factions are now playable.
- Change date to 1092 A.D.
- The Turkish Faction has been given: Nicea, Trebizond, Rum, Georgia, Anatolia, Edessa, Armenia,
Syria, Antioch, Tripoli, and Palestine.
- Added Fort in Nicaea.
- The Turkish Faction has the following troops in the respective provinces:
ANATOLIA - Horse Archers 40
ANATOLIA - Spearmen 100
NICAEA - Horse Archers 40
NICAEA - Spearmen 100
TREBIZOND - Spearmen 100
GEORGIA - Horse Archers 40
GEORGIA - Spearmen 100
- "Lesser Armenia" is rebel controlled with the following units:
Horse Archers 40
Spearmen 100
- Changed Libya (Cyrenacia) and Tunisia to rebel (Hammadids-Zirrids) controlled.
- Added the following units to Algeria:
Berber Camel 40
Desert Archers 60
Berber Camel 40
- Added Horse Guild, Cathedral, Monastery, Reliquary, Royal Palace, and Merchant to Constantinople. (Historically, St. Sofia had been around for hundreds of years and was the greatest cathedral of its' age. Not including it would be a huge breach of historical fact.)
- Upgraded Citadel to Fortress in Constantinople.
- Added the following units to Constantinople:
Spearmen 100
Spearmen 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
NapthaThrowers 12
NapthaThrowers 12
TrebizondArchers 60
TrebizondArchers 60
AlanMercenaryCavalry 40
Kataphraktoi 80
FireGalley 1
FireGalley 1 (The Byzantines had an extensive fleet which is not represented in the original "Early Period."
- Changed control of Crimea to Byzantines.
- Added Spearmen 100 to Crimea
- Added a port and castle to Crimea.
- Changed control of Serbia to Byzantines.
- Added the following units to Serbia:
Spearmen 100
ByzantineInfantry 100
- Added 20 Florins to production of Greece.
- Added castles to Crete, Rhodes, Cyprus, and Malta. (Historically, all four had castles and Malta's castle was very strong.)
- Added castle8 to Antioch. (In 1097, The Crusaders found a huge castle so big that they didn't have enough troops to surround the entire city. Also, the seige could easily have dragged on for a year.)
- Added castle8 to Jerusalem.
- Changed Portugal to Almohad ownership. (Historically, the Almohads controlled 3/4 of Portugal. However, Portugal is Catholic religion and culture.)
- Added the following units to Portugal:
Desert Archers 60
Berber Camel 40
- Added castle to Trebizond. (Historically, the Byzantines held on to the castle while the Turks held the province. There's no way that I know of to split up control so I opted to include a castle but give nominal control of the province to the Turks.)
- Changed Burgundy and Provence to Burgundinian (rebel) control. (Historically, Burgundy was a seperate nation for many years and wasn't consumed by the HRE until the mid-1200's)
- Added troops originally in Burgundy and Provence into Swabia and Tyrolia, respectively.
- Added a port in Wessex and Normandy (Both provinces had ports by that time.)
- Upgraded Fort to Castle in Wessex.
- Added a Shipwright in Wessex.
- Removed neighbor link between Wessex and Flanders. (It is far too easy for the French to move troops to England when historically the French only were able to mount raiding parties of the English coastline. So in the game, if the French want to invade England, first, they will have to build a fleet and fight it out with the English on the sea then on land.)
- Changed control of Anjou and Aquitaine to French control. (Again, historically, the French had control of these areas by 1092)
- Added Archers 60 and Spearmen 100 to Aquitaine.
- Added Peasants 100 and Archers 60 to Anjou.
- Added Chapter House to Ile de France so that Crusades can begin as historically launched.
- Changed Castle in Ile de France to Castle8
- "Improved Farmland" and "Horse Farmer" for Wessex.
- Moved all English units previously in Anjou and Aquitaine into Normandy.
- Added (2) Archers 60, Peasants 100, Spearmen 100, and a Barque to Wessex.
- Increased income of Normandy to 430
- Increased income of Wessex to 450
- Increased income of Mercia to 320
- Increased income of Northumbria to 290
- Changed control of "The Papal States" province to Italy while Rome remains in the Papist hands.
- Papist leader is moved to Rome.
- Moved units from "The Papal States" to Rome.
- Put Naples under Sicilian Rule.
- Add Spearmen 100 to Naples.
- Added (1) Galley to Venice.
Additionally, following are the changes in order to make it so that in the "Age of Feudalism", factions have the ability to actually build Feudal Knights right away as is historically correct. So instead of having to wait for many years until you have the funds and have gone through the
process of constructing all the various buildings, the Feudal Knights are now ready to be used by those factions that can build them:
- Added Castle, Armourers' Workshop, Royal Estate, and a Royal Palace to Poland.
- Added Castle, Armourers' Workshop, Royal Estate, Royal Palace, and a Spearmaker to Hungary.
- Added Horse Breeder, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Estate to Rome.
- Added Castle, Royal Estate, Royal Palace, Armourers' Workshop, Spearmaker, and Horse Breeder to Sicily.
- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Royal Estate, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Palace to Bavaria.
- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Estate to Venice.
- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Spearmaker, Armourers' Workshop, and Royal Estate to Aragon.
- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Royal Estate, and Armourers' Workshop to Castile.
- Added Castle, Horse Breeder, Royal Estate, Armourers' Workshop, and Spearmaker to Denmark.
- Added Royal Estate, and Armourers' Workshop to Wessex.
- Added Castle, Royal Estate, Horse Breeder, and Armourers' Workshop to Ile de France.
Interesting historical note on Italy: There was no Italy until the 1800's. The faction
referred to as Italy in the game is historically merely a geographical region and nothing more. The area was controlled by a number of City-States with no central authority.
During the 11th century an elaborate pattern of communal government began to evolve under the leadership of a burgher class grown wealthy in trade, banking, and such industries as woolen textiles.
Many cities--especially FLORENCE, GENOA, PISA, MILAN, and VENICE--became powerful and independent
City-States. Resisting the efforts of both the old landed nobles and the emperors to control them,
these COMMUNES hastened the end of feudalism in northern Italy and spawned deeply rooted identification with the city as opposed to the larger region or country. The cities were often troubled by violent and divisive rivalries among their citizens, the most famous being the papal-imperial struggle--between the GUELPHS AND GHIBELLINES, the supporters respectively of the popes and the emperors.
So, really, Italy should not be a power at all but instead should be broken up into a number of City-States.
I fought the temptation to make the Italian player a one province empire with Venice as the sole playable province and then Genoa, Tuscany, Milan, Corsica, Sardinia, and the Papal States province, as all rebels.
But since that would obviously make playing the Italian player almost impossible, I left the Italian states as one empire. But if anyone would like me to split them up, please let me know.
If you would like to try out this campaign, please download it from:
http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip
Please check this early campaign out and post your comments at http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000601.html . Thank you.
Papa Bear!
10-24-2002, 01:02
bravo, very nice mod...
I'm not entirely sure its fair for all parties involved, but then I guess the original isn't fair either, and the foolish AI kinda makes it fair. So maybe a 1 province italy could survive... personally I'd suggest you go for it, as long as you're being historically accurate. Just give me a good chance to secure further territory on the peninsula. (can you do that)
And make the rebel states tough enough so that the HRE can't just walk in, (barbarossa?), before italy gets a chance at unification.
That all said I'm really tempted to try that, it sounds quite good. Unfortunately I tend to have a fear of mods, sometimes they do nasty things to games, and they're hard to remedy.
Out of curiosity, is this basically just 1 code file that I can put in the MTW directory? And if/when I decide I don't like it I can just take the old code file and put it back in?
Papabear,
It's replacements for Early.txt and the prod files. So, if you back up the originals, it's easy enough to install.
OTH, don't expect to unify Italy and keep it that way. I was playing as the Sicilians and allied with the Pope (who just had Rome). I had all of Italy. Then the Pope (perfidous man that he is) invaded me for NO reason. I wasn't the largest faction by ANY means, had never started a war, never been excommed, etc.
So, I returned the favor and crushed him. Then I started getting the Pope UBER rebellions I'd been hearing about. Even when I put full stack garisons in all the surrounding provinces and Rome, he still appears with 3 super stacks in Rome and 2 elsewhere.
Consequently, I've given up the idea of playing a nation on the Italian peninsula.
Argh,
V'ger gone
Papa Bear!
10-24-2002, 03:27
is there anyway to mod things so that the pope couldn't come back so easily? I'd prefer a game where basically the person who controlled the italian peninsula controlled the pope. (wasn't that barbarossa's plan? I'm just going off of the info in the historical campaign, I'm no medieval scholar)
Anyway, being able to off the pope then be a puppet pope or put in a puppet pope, until you pissed off the catholics and they came after you, would be really cool.
Those are some very nice changes....
Seriously like the Byzantine and Feudal Knight changes. I have hated not being able to get knights anytime soon, they get outdated far too soon compared to the effort put into getting them, and often you build past them trying to get other troops... BAH!
I think I will try this at some time. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ad on top of this the 'All Catholics Crusades' mod then we have a nice game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Papa Bear!
Quote bravo, very nice mod...
I'm not entirely sure its fair for all parties involved, but then I guess the original isn't fair either, and the foolish AI kinda makes it fair.[/QUOTE]
Thank you but it actually makes playing the Byzantines a bit harder and there's alot more action right off the bat because of the ability for early Crusades and the immediate development of Feudal Knights.
When I tested the game, I noticed in the first few turns about three Crusades going on, fedual Knights on the warpath, and the Byzantines fighting at the walls of Constantinople!! Now, that's what I call a campaign!!
And the removal of the spies really helps historically. The spies in the game are way too strong and can easily cause rebellions that can be taken over by your faction at your leisure. That stinks.
Quote So maybe a 1 province italy could survive... personally I'd suggest you go for it, as long as you're being historically accurate. Just give me a good chance to secure further territory on the peninsula. (can you do that)[/QUOTE]
I haven't had much call for doing that because I can't create a Genoa faction to counter a Venetian faction.
Quote And make the rebel states tough enough so that the HRE can't just walk in, (barbarossa?), before italy gets a chance at unification.[/QUOTE]
The ways to make them tough is by:
(1) Increasing their income;
(2) Make castles or citadels with all the additional fortifications;
(3) Add lots of troops;
(4) Add lots of extra buildings, among others.
Quote That all said I'm really tempted to try that, it sounds quite good. Unfortunately I tend to have a fear of mods, sometimes they do nasty things to games, and they're hard to remedy.[/QUOTE]
Have no fear of this mod. It is blessed. It is the Holy Mod. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Out of curiosity, is this basically just 1 code file that I can put in the MTW directory? And if/when I decide I don't like it I can just take the old code file and put it back in?[/QUOTE]
It's 3 files, 1 of which you can just leave in place if you don't want to play it.
solypsist
10-24-2002, 06:04
I'm closing this thread since it has evolved into something productive (ie. an advert for a mod) and hopefully it will continue to be read until a proper Mod thread is created in the appropriate forum.
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