Is it me or the artillery is a little useless?

[||Lz3||]

just guessing... heheh its just that artillery cost A LOT!! the stone proyector can go from 15'000 to 30'000:inquisitive:

I find more useful (and cheaper) to train archers or slingers...

(I dont remember very well how much does the arrow throwers cost but I'm sure its more expensive than 2 or even 3 units of archers )
what do you think?:sweatdrop:

[Fondor_Yards]

Well it's a lot easier to train sonny jim how to shoot a bow then bobby to be able to maintain and use an advanced siege weapon.

I've never found the arrow throwers to be useful, slingers and archers are better. As for stone throwers, they can be useful if your doing a lot of sieges with only a few field battles, but since they send your movement range into the crapper, I don't use them.

[Sir Edward]

Well it's a lot easier to train sonny jim how to shoot a bow then bobby to be able to maintain and use an advanced siege weapon.

I've never found the arrow throwers to be useful, slingers and archers are better. As for stone throwers, they can be useful if your doing a lot of sieges with only a few field battles, but since they send your movement range into the crapper, I don't use them.

Seconded, in fact out side of regions that have many cities close together (read here greece, asia minor, sicily, and similiar places) I find it just isn't economical to lug these puppies around (especially in the east). I never use them in open combat only in siege situation, and there they do pay off.

[||Lz3||]

the most expensive artillery cost 30'000 the same as elephants whit a big scale armor...:inquisitive:


and they rarely achieve more than 10 kills :smash:



arrow throwers aren't that useless against infantry , they normally do well... but they are rather expensive...

[Medical Toaster]

I tried to use artillery one time in my last campaign. By the time I lugged the stupid thing from Rome to the front in Asia Minor my new governors were already working on the condominium building improvement for +10 happiness. I was thinking of hacking my files for this campaign to change their movement rate but I am unclear where in the files the movement rates are set. If anyone knows I would appreciate it.

[Olaf The Great]

I recently starting using them in my Baktrian campaign, arrow projectors are COMPLETELY useless! They are expensive, slow, only a few unarmored men and on normal size they only have 2 Ballistas(1 if ONE guy dies.)

However, Stone projectors are STON-AGE while they are slow and have less balistas, they can destroy a gate or a wall in one hit, and if they get a lucky shot, can destroy 1/3rd of a unit(I actually once hit a general unit and killed the general, which turned out to be the last family member of the enemy.(Bye Bye Pahlava!)

One thing to remember for both of these machines is that you can't have -anything- in their way, as the stones explode and kill your guys(and sometimes the crew) and the bolts just go through your -entire- battle line.


I originally recruited them for one purpose, to empty my 40000+treasury, because having everyone in your family wildly extravagant is annoying.

Now, this is what my army looks like
5 cavalry 1 general, 2 cataphracts, 2 Baktrioi Hippeis(the half cataphractoi)
5 line infantry 3 Kleurochoi and 2 Pantodapoi.
5 Missles 2 Persian Archer-Spearmen 2 Slingers
5 "Special" units 2 Indo-Hellenic elites(one Baktrian and one Indo-Greek) 1 Cataphract Elephant
then 1 Stone thrower and 1 Arrow thrower(I will find a use, eventually)

Oh and a shout-out to Elephants, kicking ass and chewing Seleucids, too bad they're out of Seleucids.

[bovi]

I was going to experiment with the balancing of adding more artillery pieces to the units back in october, but didn't get the time back then and it was forgotten. They are indeed pretty much useless, but we didn't want to make changes that weren't tested either.

If you're interested in testing it out yourself, here's the suggestions that were thrown out but not implemented (keep in mind that the reduced upkeep also implies reduced recruitment cost; recruitment = 4 * upkeep):


I agree artillery is too expensive in general. The diminishing number of pieces means reduced effectiveness, so I propose these changes, how about it?

3-span arrow projectors have eight projectors per unit, with attack of 13 and upkeep of 1900 1400.
3-cubit arrow projectors have four five projectors per unit, with attack of 21 and upkeep of 2500 1700.
30-mina stone projectors have two three projectors per unit, with the upkeep of 3200 2000.
1-talent stone projectors have one two projector per unit, with the upkeep of 4500 2500.


This might sound unreasonable but, why not go overboard like this and ask the beta testers if they are too strong and cheap now?


3-span arrow projectors have eight ten projectors per unit, with attack of 13 20, ammo of 350 500 and upkeep of 1900 1500.
3-cubit arrow projectors have four eight projectors per unit, with attack of 21 25, ammo of 280 400 and upkeep of 2500 2000.
30-mina stone projectors have two six projectors per unit, with attack of 40, ammo of 200 300 and upkeep of 3200 2500.
1-talent stone projectors have one four projector per unit, with attack of 60, ammo of 160 250 and upkeep of 4500 3000.

Perhaps someone can apply these and post the files here, so people can test it and find a better balance?

[Solus]

originaly, engineers disassembled their warmachine, and loaded them onto carts, to make sure that they would keep up with rest of the army. The machines were assembled agian, just before battle, and disassembled agian after. Don't know why siege was so slow in the vanilla version, but historically it wouldn't be that slow, but I think that the carts would have moved as fast as the average infantry man. Maybe you have to make the speed on the battle map of siege the same speed as infantry has, which makes everything more historically acurate.

[hoom]

I think that the carts would have moved as fast as the average infantry man
Only where there are good roads and/or flat & solid ground, but as soon as you move off road, carts = way slower than infantry.

[QuintusSertorius]

You can't forced-march pack animals for the lengths of time you can men without killing them, either.

[Olaf The Great]

I was going to experiment with the balancing of adding more artillery pieces to the units back in october, but didn't get the time back then and it was forgotten. They are indeed pretty much useless, but we didn't want to make changes that weren't tested either.

If you're interested in testing it out yourself, here's the suggestions that were thrown out but not implemented (keep in mind that the reduced upkeep also implies reduced recruitment cost; recruitment = 4 * upkeep):





Perhaps someone can apply these and post the files here, so people can test it and find a better balance?
Bovi, why are you so awesome?

[Megas Methuselah]

It's in his nature to be awesome.
:clown:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can't forced-march pack animals for the lengths of time you can men without killing them, either.


To be fair the army has a large baggage train anyway.

[QuintusSertorius]

To be fair the army has a large baggage train anyway.

Depends which army and which era, and indeed particular circumstances. Some were better at "travelling light" than others.

[alatar]

Still, I found it strange in a game, where a army is travelling wih supplies to make a fort and rams and seige towers, and food to let them travel to india from rome, that a cartwith a balista in it travels so slow.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Still, I found it strange in a game, where a army is travelling wih supplies to make a fort and rams and seige towers, and food to let them travel to india from rome, that a cart with a balista in it travels so slow.


Valid point. Nonetheless, we have slow moving seige weapons. My own strategy is thus: I have them follow invading armies into enemy territory with an armed escort (playing Marian Romani right now - so it is usually several legionary units). If they get caught in the open - my mistake. Bye-bye seige weapons. Point is, I no longer keep them in my main armies. However, they do some wonderful HURT to walls/towers/gates - so I like them. In the end, tho, they have a limited use. My units would be wearing Lorica Segmentata by the time those seige machines made it from Rome to Antioch! :laugh4:

[Olaf The Great]

Valid point. Nonetheless, we have slow moving seige weapons. My own strategy is thus: I have them follow invading armies into enemy territory with an armed escort (playing Marian Romani right now - so it is usually several legionary units). If they get caught in the open - my mistake. Bye-bye seige weapons. Point is, I no longer keep them in my main armies. However, they do some wonderful HURT to walls/towers/gates - so I like them. In the end, tho, they have a limited use. My units would be wearing Lorica Segmentata by the time those seige machines made it from Rome to Antioch! :laugh4:
And they'd be in crappy Late Roman gear by the time you get them to Baktra!
But by then you'd have been destroyed because of the previously stated gear.


Oh by the way, those Arrow Projectors, I may have been a bit harsh, they can easily destroy any unit including multi-hp ones, I attacked elephants in India with one unit of them(two catapults) and I killed all 3 elephants in one shot, then afterwards I killed about 40 Indian levies.

Now I still got my ass kicked in the end, because afterwards the enemy -still- had 3 more units of elephants, one being the general with chervons and double size.

[sgsandor]

I was going to experiment with the balancing of adding more artillery pieces to the units back in october, but didn't get the time back then and it was forgotten. They are indeed pretty much useless, but we didn't want to make changes that weren't tested either.

If you're interested in testing it out yourself, here's the suggestions that were thrown out but not implemented (keep in mind that the reduced upkeep also implies reduced recruitment cost; recruitment = 4 * upkeep):





Perhaps someone can apply these and post the files here, so people can test it and find a better balance?

if you can tell me what line in the export_descr_unit.txt i will be more then happy to beta test and get back withg an answer i know to change in the sp back up but i never fiddled with seige weapons before
thanks!

[tapanojum]

I just fought as KH against the Romans, defending a city I stole from them just north of Rome. I had the arrow artilery, the cubic arrow artilery, and the cheapest stone thrower.

The army ratio was 1:3. Right as the battle starts, the artilery is raining down on the enemy...awesome! As soon as they get within 50 feet of my army, I don't turn the artillery off in time. Needless to say...my commander gets a bigass Metal Arrow artilery through his back...thats the end of that =/

[bovi]

Taking a look at the code, these are the values to change for the various artillery:


;343
type generic siege 3span
dictionary generic_siege_3span ; Triaspanai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type Light_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 24, 8, 0.85 - - - number of pieces (possibly you'll need more men to man 10!)
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1 - - - Attack value and ammo number (possibly the ammo number is moot as it will take most of the battle to expend all that anyway)
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000 - - - price, upkeep cost and retraining cost
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, numidia, macedon, saba, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, seleucid, slave, pontus, armenia, gauls, britons, scythia, germans, dacia, spain

[oudysseos]

Wild idea/question-

Does artillery have to be recruited as such? Is there any way to modify the sap points, rams and siege towers that can only be built during a siege to include ballistae, onagers, etc.? (Sorry, don't have the greek name for three-span arrow projector memorized). There could be trait and/or ancillary related prereqs for family members- you have to have a praefectus fabrum trait (or whatever). As I see it, that way you don't have to transport all that very expensive high upkeep ineffective artillery, stringent enough traits would prevent spamming of whole stacks of flaming missile catapults and the whole system might just be a tad more realistic- most artillery was used most of the time during sieges, I believe. I'd like to use artillery myself from time to time but the current system makes it very unattractive.

[Flying Pig]

No, sorry, although you can edit out sap points. I actually like artillery for my (numerous) defensive actions, as a huge army at the gate, the Chaionion Agema holding it, and a TON of heavy fire coming frm inside is enough to scare anyone.

[oudysseos]

Too bad, I thought it was a good idea.


300 posts!

[Tabeia]

stat_sec 12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1 - - - Attack value and ammo number (possibly the ammo number is moot as it will take most of the battle to expend all that anyway)


I may be wrong, but I think the 350 value is not the amount of ammo, it's the maximun range of the scorpion
30 is the ammo value that should be changed

[Poulp']

I wish artillery could throw cows.
Since there were flaming pigs, flying cows are not that far fetched...

That's the kind of useless, place-taking unit that I'd take over HA anyday.

[bovi]

That's a good point Tabeia, I didn't check well enough but took Aymar's quote as good (saying to increase ammo from 350). It's very likely the range.

[Beefy187]

I personally find artillery, specially balistas extremely useful in big field battles. Sure its no good in the forest but if you are someone like Carthage or Seleucids and you have to fight off a endless stacks of phalanx, they are the most handy unit you can find.

I usually just set it up on the hill and place a cavalry on its rear so if enemy tries to take it out, i can charge my cavalry at them.

However they are pretty much useless when you get attacked by enemy army so make sure you are the one attacking (so the enemy just sit there getting their army wiped out)

Onagers in the other hand, I cannot find any use for them apart from siege, taking out elephants and trying your luck to kill the enemy general in one go.

[Tabeia]

That's a good point Tabeia, I didn't check well enough but took Aymar's quote as good (saying to increase ammo from 350). It's very likely the range.

Well, I checked it and it's the range.
So I want to ask you, do you think it would still be reasonable to raise the ammo amount from 30 to 350? It would be a big change, but at the same time I think it would made artillery way more useful, because one of the main problems I have with it is that I always run out of ammo before dealing significant damage to the enemy


Also, historically how much ammo artillery crews carried normally? I'm not an expert in this subject so I would appreciate if someone could give me some idea

[bovi]

I also do not know how much ammunition they carried. I would think it should be okay to increase it to 40 at least. With 10 pieces that would make a total (10*40=)400 arrows as opposed to the (8*30=)240 currently, making them potentially 66% more effective, plus the increased effect that the higher rate of fire the increased number of pieces would give.

I'd be wary sending my general into a battle where two units of those were hunting for him :beam:.

[mp0925]

ok so what do i do to change it? im new at modding (for rome total war at least), also i was looking at the recruiment viewer thing and what is the iltiali general thats recruited in italy by the romans. is it good?

[bovi]

ok so what do i do to change it? im new at modding (for rome total war at least)
Then you do not. Wait for someone to post it instead. I've said which values need to be changed (somewhat changed by Tabeia's discovery of the error about ammunition).


also i was looking at the recruiment viewer thing and what is the iltiali general thats recruited in italy by the romans. is it good?
Off topic.

[Irishmafia2020]

I have changed some of the values in my own units.txt file relating to artillery. Most notably I have dramatically reduced the upkeep for these machines. I think that the massive initial cost is (possibly) realistic, but that they should not cost as much as an army to maintain once they have been built. I also added 10 missiles to each artillery piece (up to 40 from 30). I would have increased the travel speed as well by about 20 % - but I do not know how. I did not increase the firepower or number of the units involved, but rather I chose to modify the aspect that prevents me from EVER using artillery in EB (that factor is mostly the enormous upkeep cost and very slow speed). I also lowered the upkeep for elephants for the same reason - they are too expensive to use in game as it stands. I will review these changes and see if they are useful in my current game. Mostly I would like to see if the A.I. uses either elephants or artillery at all.

If anyone wants to mod the file it is export_descr_unit in the eb/data folder. Make sure to back up the file before you mess with it, and then edit/search for artillery. Modify the existing values rather than erasing them. Check at the very top of the txt document for a key on what each value does. If you get a CTD when you start the game, then return the original unmodified file to the data folder and your game should be fine (unmodified) after that. If you plan on modifying multiple values, it is best to test each modification separately rather than finding that all of your work on 50 different units is wasted. In other words, load the game after each modification (or series of modifications) so that if you have a CTD you will know what caused it. Make sure to save each generation of modifications to your files in case a CTD does occur, that way you won't lose previous work to a slip up. Or, you can wait til' someone posts the files with the changes you desire... I may make a exp_desc_units file that meets the standards discussed in this thread, but for now my changes are in my personal version for testing purposes only.

Also, how do you change the strat-map speed value for units? I would like to make the siege engines a little bit faster (not much) but I have not found where to modify the files...

[QuintusSertorius]

Just faced one of those stone-throwers in a battle against Makedonia. I think in five or six shots, they killed about three men before my velites annihilated their crews in a shower of javelins.

[Olaf The Great]

Just faced one of those stone-throwers in a battle against Makedonia. I think in five or six shots, they killed about three men before my velites annihilated their crews in a shower of javelins.
Those are siege artillery, not anti-personell arty :)

[QuintusSertorius]

Those are siege artillery, not anti-personell arty :)

Hey, I didn't choose to use it as such! :laugh4:

[Baktrion Agema]

Hows it going, has your modding worked?

[Irishmafia2020]

Well, the upkeep is lower, but I happened to get into a "balls to the wall" do or die war with all of my enemies at once - AS, Pahlava, and Saka. Unfortunately, this has meant that I haven't been experimenting, but rather that I have only been in survival mode as my elite armies are chewed up and replaced with cheap local levies. In other words, since I made the changes I have not recruited any artillery, and I have not seen any in use in the enemies armies. Theoretically though, when I get around to it they won't be so expensive as to be made useless. I am starting a new game with the AS wherein I gave away the eastern half of my empire on turn 2, so that will make for a better measurement as to how the a.i. recruits/uses artillery (and elephants) in the campaign. When I have used them, i will report back to this thread...

[Cambyses]

Historically artillery werent much use either though were they? :oops:

I mean, yes, they were used at sieges and for attacking/defending fortified positions to great effect, but Ive never heard of artillery achieving anything exciting in a field battle during this period of history. Please somebody correct me if Im wrong.

Obviously it would frighten and impress peoples who didnt have artitllery themselves and might occassionally be used to force a stubborn opponent out of their strong defensive position. But none of that transfers well to EB does it?

Agreed the upkeep seems very high and consequently they are not pratical to use defensively in seiges (also I can never get mine to fire over the walls at the enemy towers). I just dont see that artillery can be realistically included in the game, and just needs to be added to the list of things that we might wish for but will never get with this engine.

ie less focus on taking settlements and more territory held either though cultural or military strength. Forts you can leave without sallying. Proper river battles. Naval warfare. etc etc :thumbsdown:

[KhaziOfKalabara]

Taking a look at the code, these are the values to change for the various artillery:


;343
type generic siege 3span
...
category siege
class missile
...

What happens if you change these values? Is the speed linked to one of these?