F1 screen inconsistencies in single player campaign

[Puzz3D]

Arkatreides has noticed unexplained +1 or -1 shifts in the attack/defend unit stats displayed by F1 in the single player campaign. I looks to me like the cause has to do with how wins and losses are used to adjust the combat stats.

It's 1201 in a normal early English campaign. I have a small force of archers, spearmen and urban malitia in Provence under Sir Stephen Bourchier who has 9 loyalty, 3 piety, 5 dread, 1 command, 4 acumen, no V&V's and is rank 1 with valor 2 on his unit. His unit is mounted sergeants with 28 men. When an Italian force invaded Provence I checked the F1 screen and evey unit, including Bourchier's, had +1 attack more than they should have had. After the battle which he won, Bouchier was promoted to rank 2 and had picked up the V&V's irritable and scant mercy since he had executed prisoners twice during the battle which added 2 dread to his attributes.

To check if the +1 to attack was coming from Bourchier I reloaded the 1201 savegame and took one of the valor 0 archer units and attacked Genoa. The archer F1 screen showed 0/-1/-1/2/-1 (valor/attack/defend/armor/morale) which is correct for a basic valor 0 archer with an armor upgrade. The archer was trained in Provence with an armory. Then I reloaded the 1201 savegame, and sent Bourchier with the valor 0 archer into Genoa. Now the archer showed 0/0/-1/2/-1. So, the archer is picking up a +1 attack from Bourchier. I then reloaded the 1202 game and sent the rank 2 Bourchier and the archer into Genoa. The archer then showed 1/0/0/2/-1 which is +1 to valor, +1 to attack and +1 to defend over the basic archer.

The sequence is:
Rank 0 = no change
Rank 1 = +1 attack
Rank 2 = +1 attack, +1 defend and +1 valor

Every 2 ranks of the general is supposed to give +1 valor which in turn is supposed to give +1 attack, +1 defend and +2 morale. That's not the case if the F1 screen is correct. It's very possible that the F1 screen is not correct.

A second check of the very start of a normal English campaign shows King William as Rank 4 (command 4) Early Royal Knights with +2 Dread from the V&V autocrat. If you pair a basic archer (0/-1/-2/1/-1) with him, the F1 screen shows 2/0/-1/1/-1 for the archer which is +1 to attack, +1 to defend and +2 to valor. If the unit were really valor 2, it should have had +2 to both attack and defend and +4 to morale.

King William's unit shows as 3/6/6$/5$/10 on F1. A basic Early Royal Knight should be 0/4/4$/5$/8. This would be consistent for 2 valor points coming from his rank 4 which in turn each boost attack and defend by 2. The morale is +2 over the basic unit because the general always receives 2 morale. However, the unit has a valor of 3 not 2. The third valor point seems to do nothing. So, it looks like the actual valor is one point below what is displayed, and there is no affect on morale.

Another test on Bourchier's mounted sergeants indicates another inconsistency. Base mounted sergeants are 0/2/3$/4$/2. A rank 0 Bourchier mounted sergeants trained with an armor upgrade showed 2/4/6$/5$/6 which is consistent with the valor = 2 giving +2 attack, +2 defend and +4 morale as the strategy guide and longjohn say it should. Now I attacked into Genoa and then retreated. Bourchier picked up the V&V weak attacker with -1 to command when attacking. Normally you would loose a rank for loosing the battle, but the displayed rank never drops below 0 and this unit was already at rank 0. The next turn I attacked Genoa again, and the unit shows 2/4/6$/5$/4 at rank 0 on the F1 screen. I believe the -2 to morale is due to Bourchier no longer being the commander of the two unit army which still included the archer unit. In fact, a check of a single basic archer retreating from an attack and picking up a V&V giving -1 to command showed no change in stats when I used it to attack again.


Either F1 is displaying wrong values or each win/loss directly affects the attack/defend combat values just as V&V's directly affect the morale value. We saw this alternating effect on attack and defend combat values in Shogun, but LongJohn has said that those values displayed by F1 in Shogun were incorrect. He may have meant incorrect for the multiplayer. In MTW, custom battle and multiplayer do follow the rule +1 valor = +1 attack, +1 defend and +2 morale.


[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 09-20-2002).]

[Arkatreides]

I am not alone anymore!!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Thanks for posting this Puzz, I'll check it as soon as I get home. We might be onto something ... if not maybe this will draw the devs' attention.

[Kraxis]

Well, two people, a good deal of argumentation... is equal to credible.

I now accept this as a bug, or at least a badly explained feature.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Arkatreides]

And now for my favourite pass-time: BUMPING!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Vanya]

GAH!

Vanya tinks der is more to this than just valor.

EH-OH! youz say?

There is 'command', 'dread', 'piety' and v&vs in addition to plain 'valour'. Vanya tinks all these might play into the final unit values somehow.

Of course, I could be wrong... maybe one of ze devs will drop by and show us all the errors of our ways...

GAH!

[Red Inquisition]

Just to pick up on what Vanya said. Could it be the dread of your general? I pretty sure the dread of the enemy general affects your troops if it is high. Does having a high dread general scare the bajesus out of your troops and make them want to fight so they don't get sold into slavery working at the lepper camps?

------------------
***Metalpriest***
"Bringing the Faith of Metal to the boyband Heathins"

[Kraxis]

It is certainly possible, as I have no idea what Dread actually does on the battlefield. I have long suspected Morale is affected but I can't be sure, and I have no idea how much the troops are affected by it.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[longjohn2]

One thing to note is that the general's rank does not actually effect valour, as it's factored in separately. However, since the effect is similar, we display an increased valour, as if it did. That explains why an apparent increase in valour doesn't actually give combat bonuese on top of those bestowed by the general's rank.

[+DOC+]

Thanks for that LongJohn, could you elaborate on that a little as i'm unsure what you mean by how rank effects valour, etc...

it's not explained well in the manual you see. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Puzz3D]

So, wins/losses are affecting rank which in turn affects the attack/defend combat values. It looks like the valor is updated for even numbered ranks. It also looks like morale has be disassociated from rank changes due to wins/losses, and is instead affected by the V&V's.

Thx LongJohn.

[Kraxis]

I think I'm confused.... Actually I am. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

I have at this time no clear idea how it works.
So if I see a unit with three small flags it could very well have +1 to attack above the normal Valour three for that unit???

And Morale? I'm very confused, it was so easy before, now it seems to be complicated.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

They could have +1 on attack above the displayed valor or they could have -1 to both attack and defend according to my tests. LongJohn just confirmed that the displayed valor is an estimate of the combat level of the unit derived from the various combat factors and the rank. However valor is being calculated, there must be a slight inconsistency creeping in, and it can't possibly track incremental changes to attack or defend since +/- 1 valor is supposed to change both attack and defend. And, I think it's clear that morale has already dropped out of the valor equation because you can go into battle with a -9 morale coward and yet the valor flags are flying high. I guess it's better to rely on the F1 status screen rather than the unit flags. I hope the F1 screen is accurate.

[Kraxis]

Yes, I always rely on the F1, it was more conserning enemies.

That thing about the Morale I had figured out, or rather it was deep in my mind so I never thought of it. But I still expect a unit of Valour 3 to have +6 to Morale before any and all Vices are considered.

Thanks m8. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Arkatreides]

Ok, I have to admit that I still don't understand completly:

2 points of command give +1 valour to each unit, right?

This valour bonus sticks with the unit (both on the F1 screen and outside battles), right?

Each point of valour gives +1 attack and +1 defense (let's ignore the morale), right?

So if all three statements are correct then the numbers should add up. If they don't then at least one of these three statements is wrong OR there is something else which we are missing.

P.S. I am sorry if I am being a pain, but I really like to know why I sometimes have a -1/-1 penalty, and if I can avois it somehow. A -1/-1 penalty for EVERY unit is quite significant in some battles and since I have no idea how to determine whether the penalty applies BEFORE the battle or not, it can sometimes mean a save/reload (or worse).



[This message has been edited by Arkatreides (edited 09-18-2002).]

[Arkatreides]

Just bumping this again on the off-chance of getting a reply ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

Arkatreides,

Don't think of the attack/defend/morale combat parameters as deriving from the valor. It's the other way around, and there is no way the displayed valor can track individual changes in attack or defend. Also, morale is a huge factor that isn't affecting valor at all. Once you are on the battlefield, there is considerable uncertainty about the morale level of the enemy units. However, if you are spying on the enemy, you can see the info parchment of the enemy commander while on the strategy map and see his V&V's.

[Kraxis]

So, the V&V's that give Valours still give them as each Valour is +1 to att. and def. and +2 to Morale, right?

I know the seen Valours come from the combined average of the men in a unit + the Valours gained (or in this case the bonusses gained) from Ranks and from V&V's.

But how does a man get to a point where he only recieves +1 to either def or att, when he is halfway to the next Valourlevel?

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Arkatreides]

Oh, now I get it ...

BTW: Congrats on your 500th, Kraxis.

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

The +1 only to attack is coming from the general's odd numbered ranks. Even numbered ranks are affecting the defend value.

[Kraxis]

Oh...

If the uneven ranks give to both attack and defence then how do we know when it is either one or the other?

Thanks Ark. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

Sorry. I gave a cumulative sequence in my f1rst post. The effect I see is:

Rank 0 = no change
Rank 1 = +1 attack
Rank 2 = +1 defend at which point valor gets a +1

[Arkatreides]

Puzz, I don't quite get this progression to work. My rank 6 general only gives +3 attack, +2 defense. He has no vices/virtues that would affect this.

On the other hand my rank 2 king gives +2 attack, +1 defense. So actually more than he should.

[Kraxis]

And so the debate began again...

It does seem odd.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Arkatreides]

Hmm ...

[Kraxis]

What was the Morale of these guys?

Maybe Valour is calculated as the average of the three factors affected by upgrades in Valour.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Puzz3D]

Arkatreides,
Any valor points intrinsic to the unit seem to follow the +1 attack, +1 defend and +2 morale rule. As yet, I haven't come across the inconsistency you're describing in your last post.

I have found something which doesn't add up. Lord Plantagenet is rank 4, loyalty 9, piety 3, dread 7, command 4, acumen 7 with the vices, cracked-brained (-2 morale and -20 happiness), friendly (+2 acumen and +20 happiness) and pious (+3 piety). Without him I have an archer commanded by Goodwine Fitzalan who is rank 0, loyalty 6, piety 5, dread 2, command 0, acumen 1 with no V&V's. This unit shows 1/0/-1/1/1 (valor/ attack/defend/armor/morale). That is +1 attack, +1 defend and +2 morale over the basic valor 0 archer as the +1 valor should provide. When I pair Lord Plantagenet with the archer, it goes to 3/1/0/1/-3. That's +2 valor, + 1 attack, +1 defend and -4 morale. That doesn't add up since attack and defend should each go up by +2 from the rank and morale should only drop by -2 due to the V&V. I also did the same pairing with a 0/-1/-1/2/-1 archer with armor upgrade (adds +1 defend and +1 armor). Paired with Plantagenet the unit goes to 2/0/0/2/-5. Again that's +1 attack, +1 defend and -4 morale.

The effect is that both archer units go into battle with Plantagenet with combat stats as though they have 1 less intrinsic valor point (-1 attack, -1 defend, -2 morale) than indicated on the F1 screen. However, the earlier test with Bourchier didn't show any reduction in morale, but then again, he didn't have any V&V affecting morale. So, it's not obvious what's going on.

[Arkatreides]

Puzz,
I have come to a similar conclusion:
As you say intrinsic valour does follow the +1/+1/+2 rule.
I also found that for low values of command you progression of alternate attack and defense seems to work.
However for high ranking generals the 'penalty' usually kicks in.

My rank 7 general only gives an effective +2/+2 to his troops. So perhaps the progression flattens out near the top, meaning that high rank does not add as much effective valour as one would imagine.

[Dorkus]

Wow. this is a good post. I'm simply bumping htis to ensure it doesn't get lost in the archives (the search function doesn't seem to allow access to posts before a certain date).

[barocca]

bump,
and i'll bump the cross linked thread as well,

i've been seeing inconsistencies for ages, but never gone into as much detail as here,

i don't think this has been explained to us fully yet.

cross link - http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001417.html

[olaf]

Bump.

Can someone from CA take some time to write up something that detailes exactly how all of this works?

Thanks
olaf

[AgentBif]

Yes, I too would like the devs to carefully test this feature to verify that it's working properly and then to explain exactly what it is reporting.

bif

[Cheetah]

PAF

[pressure]

Are the +/- fluctuations caused by terrain?

[Puzz3D]

Based on a post LongJohn made about valor upgrades to your units being determined by the difference between your general's rank and the enemy general's rank, I went back to my previous example from above with Lord Plantagenet/Godwine Fitzalan. Just for my own reference it's Saxony 1228. From that province I can attack Brandenburg defended by Lord Zuraw who is rank 3 (command 3) or Denmark defended by King Eric who is rank 5 (command 5). Neither of these two defending generals have V&V's affecting valor or command.

I attacked each province on the 1228 turn with Lord Plantagenet accompanied by the valor 1 archer under Godwine Fitzalan. In both cases the archer unit shows 3/1/0/1/-3 (valor/attack/defend/armo/morale) on the F1 screen. That is +2 valor, + 1 attack, +1 defend and -4 morale above what the unit shows without Plantagenet as general. I would conclude that the rank of the enemy general has no effect on the combat bonuses your men receive from your general.


Pressure,

While terrain does have an affect on combat and morale during the battle, that effect not shown on the F1 screen.



[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Kraxis]

Puzz, I'm sure you know this, but it is now well known that generals don't grant Morale unless by Vices.

It is strange that the Archers have -4 Morale compared to the not commanded ones. They should only have -2...

And it seems there is a lack of +1 to both attack and defend. Lord Plantagenet is a Rank 4 general and should as such give +2, but he only gives +1. Strange.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Thane Talain MacDonald]

Hmm, I'm confused, but I don't use the F1 screen :P

Heck, I didn't even know about it OR pausing until I came here http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[querulously]

There are various odd effects to morale that could be caused by dread of the enemy general or possibly the morale effect of being grossly outnumbered (watered down for range)

I notice that some units like to be in certain formations, ranks deep, certain terrain etc. Maybe if this works as erratically as say valour bonuses given in provinces, these might explain some of the above.

[Puzz3D]

Lord Plantagenet has the cracked-brained V&V which confers -2 morale, so that explains the -4 morale. The attributes of the two leaders in these units is fully explained in a previous post of mine in this thread.


querulously,

LongJohn did tell us that dread has no effect on the combat stats. The F1 screen gives the stats of the units as they exist just before the battle starts. Conditions on the battlefield do not change those numbers on teh F1 screen.

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
That is +2 valor, + 1 attack, +1 defend and -4 morale above what the unit shows without Plantagenet as general. [/QUOTE]

Well, I took that as saying "-4 Morale lower thna without Lord Plantagenet."

But wouldn't the V1 of the Archers before battle even out the Vice??? Valours earned in battle or from Bowyers do add Morale don't they? So the Archers would be with Lord Plantagenet at -1 Morale rather than -4 (just checked with the Assembly and Archers have basemorale at -1 not -2)...

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
LongJohn did tell us that dread has no effect on the combat stats.[/QUOTE]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Can't be true!!! GAH!!!

Well, then I will never again kill any prisoners past Scant Mercy, I won't execute any rebels past Frequent Mercy (+20% happiness -2 Dread).
Dread has just lost a massive amount of importance for me.

But then again, I have been playing outside Dread for some time, expecting this. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

You're right, the -4 morale is a difference. The actual value on the Godwine archer is -3 when paired with Plantagenet, and now that you pointed that out and with the aid of another test I think I know what's going on. At least patially.

This is the test. I attacked an adjacent province with Plantagenet/Godwine, checked F1 and then withdrew. There were no casualties and no valor gained or lost on the battlefield. I kept track of the opposing general's rank, but it's not a factor. I did this 16 consective times. Plantagent is a Royal Knight unit and Godwine is a valor 1 archer unit. Plantagenet has the cracked-brained V&V giving -2 morale. These are the results:

# lost battles, unit name, valor/attack/defend/armor/morale, rank

0 Godwine 3/1/0/1/-3
0 Plantag 5/8/9/6/10 R4

1 Godwine 3/1/0/1/-3
1 Plantag 5/8/9/6/10 R4

2 Godwine 2/1/0/1/-3
2 Plantag 4/8/9/6/10 R3

3 Godwine 2/1/0/1/-3
3 Plantag 4/8/9/6/10 R3

4 Godwine 2/1/0/1/-3
4 Plantag 4/8/9/6/10 R3

5 Godwine 2/1/0/1/-3
5 Plantag 4/8/9/6/10 R3

6 Godwine 2/1/0/1/-3
6 Plantag 4/8/9/6/10 R2

7 Godwine 2/1/0/1/-3
7 Plantag 4/8/9/6/10 R2 has the poor risky attacks V&V giving -2 morale

8 Godwine 1/1/-1/1/-3
8 Plantag 3/8/8/6/10 R1

9 Godwine 1/0/-1/1/-3
9 Plantag 3/7/8/6/10 R0 has the not so bold V&V giving -2 morale

10 Godwine 1/0/-1/1/-3
10 Plantag 3/7/8/6/10 R0

11 same
12 same
13 same
14 same
15 same
16 same

I see three things in these results:

1) Plantagenet's initital -2 V&V morale modifier is not added to Godwine's valor 1 morale. Instead, it's added to Godwine's valor 0 morale. Valor 0 archers are -1 morale and with Plantagenet's -2 V&V that equals -3.

2) The two subsequent -2 morale modifiers picked up by Plantagenet during the loosing streak are not showing on F1. It looks like they just don't work.

3) There is no change to combat attack/defend above rank 2 up to rank 4 on either Godwine or Plantagenet. Although, the valor shown does increase on even numbered ranks.

The progression is:
Rank 0 starting valor/attack/defend
Rank 1 increment +0/+1/+0
Rank 2 increment +1/+0/+1
Rank 3 increment +0/+0/+0
Rank 4 increment +1/+0/+0


[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Kraxis]

Damn...

Now it is getting complicated... We can't even know if Valours give Morale anymore, Ranks don't give it and it seems earned Valours don't either (at least not all the time). So where does this V1 = 1/1/2 come from?

The Vice thing is well known, Vices have a tendency to not be effective for some while, and at times never.

I guess some tests must be done after the patch as well so we can get the correct values all the time.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Puzz3D]

The V1 = +1/+1/+2 att/def/morale originally came from LongJohn before MTW was released. He told us that the F1 screen was broken and didn't show the correct att/def in STW and WE/MI. I verified that +1 honor gave +2 morale in STW with testing, but the att/def increases were much harder to pin down with tests. Once we realized that +1 honor increased both att and def by +1, multiplayer battlefield experience with honor upgrades fit the results of the one unit on one unit tests we had done for WE/MI v102. Now in MTW we see the correct 1/1/2 in custom battle and multiplayer on the F1 screen for each +1 valor upgrade.

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 10-24-2002).]