Should I buy SHOGUN after playing MEDIEVAL?

[Ckrisz]

A question to the Shogun veterans out there: how much of a difference is there between SHOGUN and MEDIEVAL? Is SHOGUN hopelessly outdated in terms of graphics and tactical gameplay, or is it relatively on par with MEDIEVAL (I know the SHOGUN strategic play was much less sophisticated)?

The reason I ask is because SHOGUN:TW Gold is available very cheaply nowadays and I've always enjoyed Japanese history as much or more as medieval history, so I think it'd be fun to play in the Japanese setting. However, if the game is a huge regression from MEDIEVAL, I'm not as sure I would enjoy it.

[malkuth]

Graphics yes are outdated. The turns run on seasons, not yearly like MTW.

Still a good game if you like japanese battles.

[querulously]

I think the core battles are not too seriously exceeded by MTW : STW compares quite well, especially pre patch. Oddly STW armies seemed to be more fine tuned tactically than MTW in some respects. Have fun with either.

[Bedsorian]

I found STW more battle orientated than MTW which definitely has the strategy angle more sown up...if u like the 3 D battle experience then buy it, STW certainly can match up to MTW. I do like the canon thing in MTW though, gives a different angle, and given the choice, would now play only MTW...buy and try...it's the only way.

[Papa Bear!]

ya considering you can get stw: WE edition for 5-10$

(don't do like me though, I bought STW, "classics edition" or something, but I got robbed, it wasn't warlord or mongol invasion, (which means it didn't have as many units, etc.)

[ToranagaSama]

Buy it!

The Strategic side is where most of the difference lies. STW is much simpler and alliances are more treacherous than MTW.

The battles are quite similar in nature, with the MTW AI, being slighty more adept at flanking. Battle tactics are similar, but not exact. Different enough from STW to MTW to make a difference in the outcome using the same tactics.

Graphics are not outdated in any fashion. The maps in MTW have more detailed landscapes, but the unit sprites in STW are more "detalied" and sprite movements, IMO, are more detailed as well. In MTW (I made a mistake and referred to STW), there is more variety with colors and clothing from faction to faction.

If you really dig Samuri, Bushido, Sun Tzu, and all that jazz then Shogun is your ticket.

If they could mod MTW's Strat Map to Shogun, I'd play that exclusively.

[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Yoko Kono]

oddly enough the original games graphics are better on my computer, in medieval i get a 'shimmering' textures effect in battle that never happened in shogun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

shogun is still, imo, a class game but get the warlord edition if you can
its far better

[Akka]

Quote Originally posted by ToranagaSama:
[B]If you really dig Samuri, Bushido, Sun Tzu, and all that jazz then Shogun is your ticket./B][/QUOTE]

Sun Tzu was a Chinese, not a Japanese.

[Orda Khan]

Buy it definitely. Battles are far more interesting and varied than MTW pus units move better. I find cav move in slow motion and look like they are gliding in MTW. Also unit sprites look better and fight better in Shogun. I don't like the constant rallying of units in MTW. It does nothing but drag out the battle and begins to look like a game of tag.
Shogun in any form is a far better game. Though WE/MI is the one you need for MP.

......Orda

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Cyricist]

Quote Originally posted by Akka:
Sun Tzu was a Chinese, not a Japanese.

[/QUOTE]

So? The Japanese knew master Sun's ways fairly well, even though they thoroughly hated the Chinese. It's still a very very related subject and reading 'the art of war' will certainly teach you a thing or two about how to wage war (especially in the field!).

[Peabody]

I found the Warlord/Mongol edition to be an improvement over the original STW. They seemed to fix the Hojo hording problem and they reballenced some of the building times. Both nice improvments.

Shogun is a great game, and well worth playing. Compared with Medieval the aestetic is cleaner, the units are clearer, and the map is simpler. The Japanese setting is also very cool.

I really liked the turns moving in seasons. It made for more dramatic battles - there's nothing like battling in a snowstorm for drama! I also liked that I would sometimes hold off invasions for a particular season so I could get the best chance at good weather. It gave the strategic planning extra realism.

One of the more charming details in Shogan is each strategic event is rendered with a little movie - a touch I really miss in Medieval.

You can pick Shogan up for cheap nowadays.

Do it.

[TheViking]

Buy it.

All TW fans should own Shogun TW and/or Mongol invasion.

I only play MTW cuz the community moved here.

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There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[AgentBif]

If you liked MTW, you'll like Shogun. It's very similar. You will get a change of atmosphere, new units to play with, new map, and you'll learn something about a neat culture during a very interesting time in their history.

It's a very slick product.

bif

[t1master]

a must have, especially at the price,
i only have the little version, but it is still plenty fun.

the no dachi units are more fun to watch run into battle than the highlanders. imo.

[transjendens]

Quote Originally posted by sidhe:
I must try using my big voice. Ahem: DID THEY EVER FIX THE HOJO HORDE!?[/QUOTE]

Hold On, my god-becoming Baron! Reinforcement will trounce them - Yours questions have to be imperatively answered:

->DID THEY EVER FIX THE HOJO HORDE!?

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Akka:
Sun Tzu was a Chinese, not a Japanese.

[/QUOTE]

And your point is???

I find cav move in slow motion and look like they are gliding in MTW. Also unit sprites look better and fight better in Shogun.

Gosh, your the only other poster I've noticed to feel the same as I!

The worst in MTW are the Cav, they run down fleeing sprites, but they sure aren't stabbing any! It's like death by proximity.



[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Forward Observer]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Hojo horde bug was eliminated in the Warlords Edition, although I am not sure if it was ever patched out of the original game.

In my experience, the horde really only reared it ugly head if one was playing clans starting from the West/South like the Shimazu, and then only really became unbeatable if one lollygagged around by playing a very non-aggressive game. If you played a more agressive game, at least towards the middle of the map, the horde just never had time to form.


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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[econ21]

Shogun is definitely recommended. I haven't noticed a big difference in graphics and if anything, like people have said, prefer the fighting sprites in Shogun and miss the little movies and fun voice work.

However, the strategic game is a litte more dull than MTW - although with MI you do get a lot of replayability (6 factions x 3 start dates + the Mongol thing). The tactical battles seemed more repetitive - defending the same bridge or exact same hill again and again (Shinano, anyone?).

I also felt I could out-tech the AI more easily - perhaps because in MTW basic spearman hold up for quite a long time. I haven't found the MTW equivalent of Naginata cavalry or warrior monks, which just crush AI spearmen and archer armies.

Enemy faction leaders seemed to die more often than in MTW, and so you end up fighting more boring rebels, but maybe this is because the strategy map in Shogun forces more conflict earlier than in MTW.

These downsides only become apparent after a fair amout of gameplay, though, so you will get your money's worth.

[Rosacrux]

You can't be serious, recommending STW to someone who already has MTW????

IMNRHO, the only reason one could purchase STW (in the bundled +mongol invasion edition) while having played MTW, is a serious case of Medieval Japanese History Addiction (MJHA). In other words, if you are a sucker for Samurais, Ninjas, Katana, wakizashi, fancy swordfights, like the japanese way of honour-above-all, bushido and the rest... go out and get it. If not, MTW is by a lightyear a better game, especially in the strategic aspect of it.

[Sainika]

Buy it definitely. Not STW but STW:WE. It has absolutely unique atmosphere of eastern armies, samurais and all that stuff. Besides in some cases (especially in mongol invasion and in users' campaigns)it is much more challenging both in tactics and strategy than MTW. Yes it is quite simple as for various strategic units and their abilities, alliances and ways of playing. But if you liked MTW you'll definitely like STW.

[Fearless]

Apart from the graphics shogun was marvellous. Bug free for starters.

[hoom]

The only problem with STW:WE is that you don't have the option of playing with the S:TW units only...

Running down enemy units with Naginata Cavalry is super fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Often it leaves a neat little grid of bodies and no enemy unit left.

Generally STW:WE is simple compared to MTW.
This comes off as being more polished which is a good thing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif as it lets you concentrate on which province to attack or what units to shift where rather than who shall I get to govern this province and who am I going to marry this princess to...

[Forward Observer]

Quote Originally posted by sidhe:
Thanks Forward Observer; yes that is my MO, lollygagging. I loved the green faction in the west because they already had most of one flank covered. Whenever I'd get to the Hojo clan, it was curtains for me.[/QUOTE]

I sorry if I came off as insulting or patronizing. What I meant was that I learned to play the game in a very aggressive mannor, and usually finished a full campaign in 15 to 20 years or 60 to 80 turns. Consequently, I never got to use firearms, saw Geishas, or had to deal with the horde. The Warlord Edition was great in that I could start from a later period and get to fool with some of this advanced stuff.

I also realize that a lot of people really enjoy the strategic and resource building part of the Total War games, and really enjoy taking their time doing this.

On the other hand, I just like to play fast and aggressive. I even mapped out a series of moves for every clan where you could fight a battle and take a province on the first turn every time. In fact, it is possible for at least one of the clans to be eliminated on the first turn of the game.

The good thing about MTW is that it is forcing me to play bit more balanced game. You can't hard charge as much in MTW, or the game will eat you up.

Cheers

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[RabidMonkey]

Its pretty obvious that STW is a far better game than MTW. But then maybe thats only cos I played STW for hours and hours and hours. Possibly my favourite pc game of all time! So i had extremly high expectations for MTW which hasnt quite stood up to them. I think most of the points i would make have been covered here already and i dont want to start ranting!!

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Cyricist:
So? The Japanese knew master Sun's ways fairly well, even though they thoroughly hated the Chinese. It's still a very very related subject and reading 'the art of war' will certainly teach you a thing or two about how to wage war (especially in the field!).
[/QUOTE]

Does the Jap thoroughly hate the Chinese? *seems out of scope but I'm curious*

Didnt play MTW campaign so cant comment on it, but w.r.t to the tactical battle, STW-MI is almost similiar. In fact I enjoy STW-MI MP more than MTW.. really miss my fav naginata cav. The only big difference is there is no arty unit in STW, and it can be real fun playing them *kabooom!*

Recommend : buy.



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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[Lord Nap]

I think that for its time, Shogun was a better game. I am enjoying MTW just fine, but I don't see a huge amount of improvement over Shogun. The graphics appear to be about the same (which are fine), and the sound is great in both. The only real difference (other than historical period and theme) is the improved AI on the strategy board.

However, to me at least, the strategy in MTW can be a bit overwhelming and unnecessary. I haven't had the game that long, but it seems to be more of a hassle to handle certain things than it's worth. I seem to give birth to a baby girl every other year, and can't find anyone to marry them all off to. Half of my princesses become seamstresses, and I don't want to spend all my time moving them around looking for a husband.

Also, treaties seem to be honored more in MTW than in Shogun, but it's too easy to form alliances. Within a handful of turns, most nations will be allied with half the world, and few, if any, countries will be at war. This leads you to be the aggressor in most cases. But I wish treaties were a bit rarer and more "special". I also wish you could ask for aid from an ally, and in return they could ask for your help.

Finally, I know it sounds superficial, but I really miss the cut scenes we saw during events in Shogun, in particular the ninja assassins. They were great, and even though I could tell whether or not the ninja would succeed early in the movie, I always enjoyed watching the outcome. Would have been nice to continue that tradition with MTW.

If you enjoy MTW, then you will certainly love STW. Because of its simplicity, it may even be a better game for some people.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Rosacrux:
is a serious case of Medieval Japanese History Addiction (MJHA). In other words, if you are a sucker for Samurais, Ninjas, Katana, wakizashi, fancy swordfights, like the japanese way of honour-above-all, bushido and the rest... .[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a good case for Shogun being better....!