View Full Version : Tips for attacking?
Just wonder if anyone would like to contribute any tips on how to handle tactical battles as the attacker?
Defensive battles seem fairly easy - typically, form a shield wall - preferably on a hill - and shoot from behind it; launch a flanking counter-attack at the right time; run down archers if possible; use cav for pursuit etc.
But attacking is more of a challenge for me. I try to turn an offensive battle into a defensive one - eg by having more ranged units than the enemy, so they have to attack or stand there and die. I suspect a feigned retreat would achieve a similar result, but requires more finesse to pull off.
Other than that, I don't have very subtle tactics except engage the front with spears and try to flank. Gets the job done, but requires superior force and casualties are often fairly high - unlike on the defensive, where an inferior force can hold off the AI with low casualties.
I do try to take advantage of the relative rock-scissor-paste strengths of units - but other than using spears against AI cav this seldom seems decisive.
Anyone got any more insights? I only play SP, but suspect MP players could also contribute a lot here.
before battle:
use your intelligence before you enter battle. (what kind of general, how many troops, reinforcements from other provinces possible)
make sure you know the terrain.
during battle:
use the heights in terrain. try not to fight uphill!
try to flank the enemy with assault troops or hit him in the rear with cavalary.
simon, your general approach is quite good, not much more to do, namely :
- drag them to attack by superior missile
- engage them by spear and flank them
- use rock scisors thinking BEFORE entering as rnold said. For example, I love to use many horse archers when my opponent has lots of spears.
You do loose much more troops when attacking, but that's completely logical.
Maroule - yes, I suspect I have the basics sorted out. I haven't really tried horse archers (tend to play as English) but my foot archers don't seem to skirmish nearly as well as the AIs! - unlike Shogun, they often seem to get caught flat-footed.
I just wonder what - aside from force composition - determines the outcome of MP battles where both players also know the basics? I suppose surprise and unpredictability is a big factor in MP games, but wonder if there are any special tips MP players want to share? I don't suppose they have any incentive to do so, however!
u got the basics, by the sound of it. try using different unit combinations, they all have there own strenghts
Quote Originally posted by Simon Appleton:
I just wonder what - aside from force composition - determines the outcome of MP battles where both players also know the basics? I suppose surprise and unpredictability is a big factor in MP games, but wonder if there are any special tips MP players want to share? I don't suppose they have any incentive to do so, however! [/QUOTE]
I don't think you'll learn anything from MP players, because it's a different game where you don't care about your losses as long as you win the battle. If I'd play regardless of losses in the campaign, and if I got a budget every turn to buy 'free upgraded units' that I'd get immediately to throw at random, I'd simply charge along with built up spears or whatever MP players are doing.
Fortunately, in SP you have to care about your losses, bringing your units in the province, leaving a cover behind so preparing your unix mix accordingly before attack, etc.
But don't take it as an attack of MP. I just think the 2 are fun but share almost nothing in common, despite obvious similarities. A bit like American football and european rugby. Same ball, same running behind the lines, same handling, but different planets.
For me the battle (attack) is lost if I suffer more casualities than AI. And I'm proud of myself if I loose less soldiers than AI in river battles (count only those enemy soldiers who were killed during the fight not pursuing)) when I attack. The key to succes - to make AI accept your rules of fight. I always have at least one cheap and rather weak unit to engage masses of enemy units for fight and pursuing my unit to split AI forces and destroy them. Sometimes it is very useful to do some manoevres without engaging in battle. Once I attacked egyptian army of 4200 men with sultan (I had 2700 men). Egyptian army included a number of elite good soldiers (saracen infantry, ghulam, mamluk cavalry etc.). I was prepared for a tough long battle and in the beginning of it I managed to place my army into a very strong position for both attack and defence (in case of counterattack). And I forced Egyptian sultan to move from his excellent defence position into woods where his camels and cavalry were absolutely useless. And egyptian sultan withdraw from the battle. I lost 2 archers (until now I wonder who or what killed them?? surely not egyptians).
Besides one of the most influencing factors of succes is types of units in army.
Well I usually use a compined armes force for an attack. I have 2 units of pavise arbelists which cover the major line of 3 Byz.Inf.,2 Varagian and 2 spearmen which protect the flanks.In the back of those there are 3-5 units Kataphraktous and 2 Pronoia Allagion.
I "zip" my infantry in depth so they can be covered behind the pavise. In the case that archers are against me in compination with spearmen for protection, I slowly march towards them (to avoid fatigue) and the pavise ensures me for minor losses. If cavalry charges or flanks then the spearmen try to hold them in the right and left. If there are no spearmen present then my cavalry charges under the support of the arbalists(pretty long range) while the infantry slowly advance. If there are lots of spearmen present then hold the cavalry and advance the rest. It is a strategy that works mainly if the opponent has lots of the same type of units. If against compined arms it has devastating effects(for the attacker)
Rosacrux
10-23-2002, 16:12
kill off the enemy general early. Does nasty things to their moral and many-o-times they will rout in the first sign of your troops advancing at them.
Best way (and actually only way, if we are talking about a 7+ star general) to kill the bugger is misile units/artilery. Them heavy boulders land on the general's head pretty frequently.
And a more general tip: Outmanouvre the opponent. Try to negate the terrain advantages (like when they are on high ground, lure them down with some kind of horse archers or fast archer units). And flank, flank, flank.
I like to use harrassing units like horse archers or good old bomber unit 12 men in skirmish. Wear them down then attack from the flanks. Have your archers in the centre firing with a spear unit as backup incase they send horses down apon them. Some times I'll charge light horses in and then withdraw to get them to chase me out of position and hammer them with a stronger unit. I hope to cause the rest to run down to help and leave their strong position. Bait the trap so to speak.
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Don't be in a rush to die!!
Richard I Coeur de Lion
10-23-2002, 17:56
I adopt a similar plan to Sainika, I always carry 1 or 2 cheap units to soak up the initial brunt of the enemy and then swing round the flanks to the side or rear with the better troops. Current fav is Militia Sergeants in this role as they are cheap and cheerful but can dish out a fair bit of punishment with their axes.
I tend not to commit cavalry until the battle is in full swing, and then I only commit when I've moved them all into a good position and are ready to strike from the rear. Only exception to this is when I bait the enemy using a small group of Royal Knights to make the AI break ranks......then I cut them down like the weak fools they are http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Prodigal
10-23-2002, 18:06
Agree with Sainika on the troop loss against AI. But can't manage to win a bridge attack without taking more losses than the AI, so
how can you draw defenders over a bridge?
Paco 2 Chihuahuas
10-23-2002, 18:30
Avoid heavy artillery right off the bat. I move the entire army to avoid even one shot being fired, if it's a lot of them. I always send a small cav unit to take care of what catapults and such that can be turned and reaimed. More than once I've moved the whole army to an extreme flank so that the AI (with a good army) just gave up and walked off the field.
To Prodigal:
It is quite easy if you have two bridges. In this case you divide your army into two parts: the main part which is supposed to begin the fight and the other begin to cross the bridge. AI starts to move some of its troops to stop the rivercrossing and you must decide if you fight (counterattacking units are weak or small) or withdraw a little bit - to your side of the river. In any case you won time and weaken enemy's army which is fighting with you on another bridge. If AI didn't move any of its units - congratulations - you have an opportunity to outflank your enemy. No problem to win.
If there is only one bridge in a province - try to fight ON the bridge, because you'll be able to fire at such a mass of enemies http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Before the battle it's important to chose the proper type of army. Minimum 2 arbalesters, a lot of feud. or chiv. sergents (if you have Italian infantry - better), 2 units of light cavalry and shock troops. And it's necessary to know the army of your enemy.
Juan Madsen
10-23-2002, 19:38
This is my answer for Simon Appleton openning question.
I think the whole issue of battle development is far more complex than one might though reading many of the answers here.
Since ancient times, all throurough military history, and still today, to choose the terrain is an enormous important matter for the generals that will contend. On many occasions in history armies have been "dancing around" for days before a real battle could take place. There have been remarcable cases were a campaing has been won by maneouvering only or mostly (Julius Caessar for example against Pompeyo in the Iberian Peninsula campaign as part of the civil war that confronted both).
When you commence a tactical battle in MTW or STW as well, this aspect applies in full force. To choose the terrain is the first thing you have to do once the battle is innevitable. This is quite straight in a defensive battle, the computer does not give you other chances (althought I would like to have more time and space to discuss about this).
In an offensive battle, it is your opponent who at first sight seems to have choosen the terrain. Well, deny this. Maneouver him. I tipically spent one quarter of the total time allowed for a battle just maneouvering.
At the beginning the enemy will appear in front of you forming a solid line of troops, normaly on hihg terrain. On many occasions this line will look dangerous for your troops and in fact it is. If you do a frontal attack the result will be on many occasions umpredictible to say the best.
Plan your battle. Press pause and analise everything, weather, your position, his position, intermediate terrain, forests, hills, the troops display in front of you, etc. Devise a plan, and start maneouvering. The purpose is to make him lose his coherence in the field. Archers to some extent and calvary to a great extent are good at this.
Try fint attacks with your calvary, place your archers in a position were you can severely "bombard" one of his units. Try tricks, use your imagination, but make him move. Sooner or later this will occur, and you will see some units beginning to be isolated, or a gap increasing in his lines, the coherence has beginning to break down.
If you have maneouvered correctly this is the moment to attack in full force. How to carry out the attack is something you should have though at the beginning of the battle, when you devised your plan. Possibly a good opportunity arises for your calvary, or enveloping (the supreme objective) seems possible, or his left flank suddenly is clearly exposed. Use the advantage you have created.
To me every battle is different and although some patterns may repeat in my case this is only because I always try to use the same structure of force.
The only repetitive thing are the objectives you may have:
flanking one side.
enveloping part or the entire force.
frontal assault.
How to do it is different from one battle to another.
These are the three major tactics that have remain unchanged in the course of history since the romans designed the legion system and learnt how to maneouver.
The gulf war was an enormous flanking maneouver of an entire national army, that was pinned down in his place using both geography and force.
MTW and STW are supperb games for this.
Maneouvre is so important that on two occassions I have the enemy army run away without any single shot or clash.
Hope this helps you.
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men matter most
Juan Madsen
10-23-2002, 19:43
Quote Originally posted by Sainika:
The key to succes - to make AI accept your rules of fight.
Sometimes it is very useful to do some manoevres without engaging in battle. Once I attacked egyptian army of 4200 men with sultan (I had 2700 men). Egyptian army included a number of elite good soldiers (saracen infantry, ghulam, mamluk cavalry etc.). I was prepared for a tough long battle and in the beginning of it I managed to place my army into a very strong position for both attack and defence (in case of counterattack). And I forced Egyptian sultan to move from his excellent defence position into woods where his camels and cavalry were absolutely useless. And egyptian sultan withdraw from the battle. [/QUOTE]
This is a very good example of maneouver warfare. They run away because their moral was destroyed before combat actually took place. What would had happen if you managed to engage them in such low mental condition?
This is what I do. I do the same as Defense. Set my Archers, crossbow, abalts in front. Spears holding behind. Calv in rear. (Thier is a formation for this works real nice).
Then I move the whole chicken soup up to the enemy position. Arrows in range fire. The ai hates this and charges, turns it into a defensive match.
The only thing is you will lose more men then if you were defending. Mostly because he has Arrow units lined up to when you walk into him. But it always works he will charge you. Just watch out though. If his calv charge you down hill he will be on your crossbowmen in No time.
Quote Originally posted by Juan Madsen:
This is a very good example of maneouver warfare. They run away because their moral was destroyed before combat actually took place. What would had happen if you managed to engage them in such low mental condition?[/QUOTE]
If I'd begin the fight I think I'd suffer very heavy casualties because I was outnumbered. Yes I'd destroy the initial position of Egyptians and I could easily make the first wave rout, but enemy's reinforcements arrive in their previuos strong defense position and it could be very tough to fight with min losses.
GAH!
There is no cookie-cutter approach to attacking. If you think this is the case, you will soon find yourself bloating and golden crispy like a dough boy in an oven (Head not included).
GAH!
*heh* there is Vanya ...
The good old rule always applies ... three answers ... all of them true ...
Carefully !
Carefully !!
Carefully !!!
Carefully choose your forces ... Carefully choose the Terrain ... Carefully bring your plans to unfold (whatever plans that may be).
Always secure your units inside a strong formation. If you can manage to force him to attack that Formation ... on a ground you have choosen ... he is defeated.
Know your Enemy, know yourself and you will be victorious in a hunderet Battles.
PS: Crossing a Bridge is quite easy ... 4 Units of Longbows/Arbs ... one Unit of Spearmen ... one Unit of Royal Knights.
Deploy the Bows close to the river, to both sides of the Bridge. Setup your spearmen to defend your side of the Bridge. Move your Royal Knights over the Bridge. When the Enemy starts to move his defenders towards your Royal Knights ... make them stopp in the middle of the Bridge. The Enemy moves into range of your Bows. The Enemy beginns to charge your Royal Knights ... you withdraw them ... the enemy runs half way across the Bridge ... then realizes his mistake and returns back into his Formation.
Do it again and again until you have no arrows left ... squish the remnants of his Army.
If he refuses to attack your royal knights ... beginn moving some Archers over the Bridge, under the cover of the Royal Knights ... thats the point when he will make a charge ... or he´ll run for it.
insolent1
10-24-2002, 03:27
Heres a handy tip for attacking. To Help choose the battlefield you attack & especially to avoid bridge battles, send your general in from another direction as the battlefield will be the border that your general attacks from.
example
Attacking valencia from aragon send your general to somewhere with a port & send him in using your ships, you can then send in your army from aragon & you will not have to fight a bridge battle(it will be coastal)
This is extremely helpful stuff for those of us who aren't natural tacticians. This should be included in the TABLE OF CONTENTS thread in my opinion.
Thane Talain MacDonald
10-24-2002, 03:56
As a student of the 'speak softly with big stick' policy, I rarely end up having to fight offensive battles against the enemy's main strength, but a good rule for offensive battles is to break up their formations. Hit their line units individually with sergeants or spears, smash exposed artillery with light cavalry hit and runs (when you get good at this you can pick off artillery just on the edge of the enemy formations without being caught), and once their lines are disrupted and forced into individual combats, use your light/medium cavalry and light/heavy infantry to flank or rear attack individual units. When the enemy cavalry tries to flank YOUR troops, you hit them in the rear with those heavy cavalry you have lying around and haven't been put into battle, right? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif As for enemy missiles, get your light cavalry on them as soon as the enemy line is occupied or as soon as they aren't covered by spearmen.
And never pause, or use the F1 screen. That's cheating http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Sjakihata
10-24-2002, 04:09
the quote is :
"know enemy and know yourself.
Your victory will be painless.
Know the weather and the field.
Your victory will be complete."
- Sun Tzu
Quote Originally posted by GuyInAtlanta:
This is extremely helpful stuff for those of us who aren't natural tacticians. This should be included in the TABLE OF CONTENTS thread in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Agreed http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Juan Madsen
10-24-2002, 13:46
Extremely important in both attack and defense is to maintain your formation. If your lines get broken and units engage in individual / independent melees them their moral will be affected rapidly. Check units status regularly. In a solid formation you will read many times something like "happy their flanks are protected".
By maneouvering you try to take this confortable feeling away from the enemy units.
That is way some of you have already seen full armies running away.
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men matter most
Juan Madsen
10-24-2002, 13:51
JARET,
I fully agree with your answer and particularly with the river tactic you explain. I do the same thing when there is only one bridge and most of the time it works very well.
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men matter most
Juan Madsen
10-24-2002, 14:05
Quote [/B]to avoid bridge battles, send your general in from another direction as the battlefield will be the border that your general attacks from.
example
Attacking valencia from aragon send your general to somewhere with a port & send him in using your ships, you can then send in your army from aragon & you will not have to fight a bridge battle(it will be coastal) [/B][/QUOTE]
This is new. I did not know. Sounds very well and if it works the way you say it opens an entire range of interesting possibilities on the strategic map.
I will try myself.
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men matter most
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