Epeirotes in Arpi - how to call them?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hi,

I want to know how I could call the Epeirotes in my Makedonian campaign. I drove them out of Hellas, and captured Taras, and they are reduced to Arpi now. They have two family members left, Pyrrhichos Aiakides, and another one not belonging to the royal family, who is currently faction leader.

https://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2205/makedonia59rk9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Epeirotai doesn't seem fit, since all three Epeirotean tribes are under Makedonian rule.
Tarantinoi not really since they lost Taras and won't regain it.
Aiakides? Their ruler is not an Aiakides at the moment, and the fate of Pyrrhichos is quite unclear at the moment.

Has anybody an idea?

Edit: I'm at war with Rome at the moment due to a failed assassination attempt. I'll give up Taras definitely because I really really don't want to roll them up to Gallia Cisalpina at this stage of my campaign. Should I pass it to the Epeirotes? I'm forcedly at peace with them, because the Romans made them protectorate, and since I was allied to Rome at this time my 2nd Epeirote war came to an unwanted halt.

[Ibrahim]

they're the Samniti:idea2:

[QuintusSertorius]

Give Taras to Epeiros. It's easier than trying to fight the Romans.

[Jolt]

Samniti Epeirotai. Samnites under Epirote leadership.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Give Taras to Epeiros. It's easier than trying to fight the Romans.
Yes, exactly, but sadly the Romaioi put Taras under siege before I could get my diplomat to the Epeirotes. You sadly can't give away settlements under siege. And so the Romans attacked it and captured it. I had only four Hoplitai Haploi there, I've sailed my real army to Aitolia a few seasons ago.

Now I'm in an alliance with the Romaioi again, one turn after they captured Taras. So no Taras for Epeiros.

[QuintusSertorius]

You can always use Force Diplomacy to take it from the Romans and give to the Epirotes.

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, I have a few propositions for you;
1) Samnitai, which is greek for Samnites. So they're basically Hellenic-ruled Samnites.
2) Italohellenes, or Italo-greeks in greek. They represent the ''free'' italic tribes ruled by the remnants of the Pyrrhic dynasty of Epeiros, seeking refuge in Megale Hellas.
3) Taras, after giving them the city itself to represent a free and again powerful city-state with Epeirotic rulers, refugees from Epeiros itself.

[keravnos]

Greeks in Italy called themselves "Italiotai". "Italoi" would be the native Italians. So, you can call them as such. The historically correct name would be to call them "Italiotai ex Apeirou", meaning "greek italians coming from Epeiros" ItaloHellenes would be those who would be a mix of peoples like the Mamertines were, Italians who wed with greek women (after disposing of their husbands, when they conquered Messana).

Similarly in Sicily, they called themselves "Sikeliotai" in contrast to "Sileloi" who would be the native sicilians (either all of them or one of the 3 native sicilian peoples). The following

Sicani or "Sikanoi" in greek transliteration,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani

Sicels or "Sikeloi" in greek transliteration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicels

Elymians or "Elymioi" in greek transliteration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymians

[Maion Maroneios]

Aha, ok so Italiotai would be my final proportion as well as Taras.

P.S.: Thanks for the clarification keravnos!

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Thank you keravnos.

Italiotai Apeirotai perhaps, the Epirote Italic Greeks?

P.S.: The Year in History states that the Antigonid Makedones counted their calendar from 317BC, start of the reign of Alexanders last rightful heir Alexander IV. So I conclude the year 272BC was the year 46 for the Makedones, is that right? Or did they also counted in Olympiads, or in years after the first Olympics. I guess they didn't call the year after the Eponymous Archon of Athens, right?

[Obelics]

Greeks in Italy called themselves "Italiotai". "Italoi" would be the native Italians. So, you can call them as such. The historically correct name would be to call them "Italiotai ex Apeirou", meaning "greek italians coming from Epeiros" ItaloHellenes would be those who would be a mix of peoples like the Mamertines were, Italians who wed with greek women (after disposing of their husbands, when they conquered Messana).

just for a bit of antropological fun:

this word is still used in italian, there are 2 meanings.

1) it refers to the ancient greek population of Magna Grecia.

2) the second meaning is a bit "downgrading" i dont know why, it is used to address an italian who have some ehm, lets say... italian vices... for example if i am in a sea-beach i dont know, lets say in Kroatia. And i see a pair of my connationals, who are doing the "buffons" with sun glasses, anal perizomas etc. near some local girls (while the girls are laughing under their moustaches), trying to make them understand via hand gestures (cause the classic "italiota" knows very few words of foreign languages) looking a bit ridicoulous... well, we say: "look! there are some of our italioti connationals there..." sentences like this.
Or another example, the world is used much with football related things: "here's the classic Italiota who is going to the stadium", or "on Sunday afternoon, the classic Italiota is attached with his ears to the radio, listening to the football match trasmissions" (this when football matches were trasmitted only on Sunday)

one hipothesis here can be related to the fact that the "italiota" charachter is more radicated to the south... you know that proverb a greek friend told me: "italians and greeks one face..."

here's a youtube example of a guy acting all the classical italioti's defects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqIZPUy_MU&feature=user
i dont know even if the guy is an italian, he looks more like an italo-american...

[Maion Maroneios]

italians and greeks one face..."
Yep, Italiani Graeci una fatza una ratza or something right?

[Obelics]

yes, una faccia una razza, that told me a greek friend who studied in naples in my uni (during the Colonels dictatorships, there were a lot of greeks who came in naples to study, now they are fewer than at the times of my mother, but there are still some).
Also there is the movie: "Mediterraneo" when i heard that sentence too.

[keravnos]

Italiotai Apeirotai perhaps, the Epirote Italic Greeks?


That's great as well.



1) it refers to the ancient greek population of Magna Grecia.


It does? I didn't know that. Well, it is great to see that the original meaning has survived.
N.2 well, that is to be expected, words' meaning does change with time and "Italiotai" could mean the "simpleton" you describe.
The best example of that would be "Agathos" which meant "good natured, good in all aspects" and post the Peloponesian war meant "naive" and still does to this day.

It's all good though. A Language that evolves is a living one.

[Ayce]

just for a bit of antropological fun:

this word is still used in italian, there are 2 meanings.

1) it refers to the ancient greek population of Magna Grecia.

2) the second meaning is a bit "downgrading" i dont know why, it is used to address an italian who have some ehm, lets say... italian vices... for example if i am in a sea-beach i dont know, lets say in Kroatia. And i see a pair of my connationals, who are doing the "buffons" with sun glasses, anal perizomas etc. near some local girls (while the girls are laughing under their moustaches), trying to make them understand via hand gestures (cause the classic "italiota" knows very few words of foreign languages) looking a bit ridicoulous... well, we say: "look! there are some of our italioti connationals there..." sentences like this.
Or another example, the world is used much with football related things: "here's the classic Italiota who is going to the stadium", or "on Sunday afternoon, the classic Italiota is attached with his ears to the radio, listening to the football match trasmissions" (this when football matches were trasmitted only on Sunday)

one hipothesis here can be related to the fact that the "italiota" charachter is more radicated to the south... you know that proverb a greek friend told me: "italians and greeks one face..."

here's a youtube example of a guy acting all the classical italioti's defects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KqIZPUy_MU&feature=user
i dont know even if the guy is an italian, he looks more like an italo-american...

:laugh4: Like „ţăran” in Romanian, meaning both peasant and the slightly uncultured guy acting with (sometimes all) the native stereotypical defects (sometimes exaggerated), though if „Italiot” would be a Romanian construction, it would be a combination between „Italian” and „idiot” rather than an adapted word. ~D

[Obelics]

@Keranos

well, the first meaning "the hinabitants of Magna grecia" is more a scientific meaning, i doubt the guy of the streets know it, but it is still an entry of the italian dictionary.

the second one, is a more "popular" meaning, as i sayd it is often related with footbal things etc. when you want to criticate some bad habits.

bythe way (just to not create some equivocation), the first and the second meanings are not related (the second meaning is just related to a low cultured italian). I posted it just cause i love this little strange thinks of usages and customs, folk, ethnology etc... expecially related to language, i love to know it also about to different cultures than mine. The example of Agathos was interesting too.

[Reverend Joe]

Wait a minute...


And i see a pair of my connationals, who are doing the "buffons" with sun glasses, anal perizomas etc. near some local girls (while the girls are laughing under their moustaches),

:inquisitive: Was that a mistake, or do the Italioti just have some very strange tastes?

[Obelics]

no no eheh, that was a metaphora to say they "laugh at them" :laugh4:

[Reverend Joe]

Ah, okay... yeah, sometimes these things are lost in translation.

Plus, I was recently reading "The Basileus is Crazy," so I guess I still had Pyrrhos's love of bearded women in the back of my mind.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

2) the second meaning is a bit "downgrading" i dont know why, it is used to address an italian who have some ehm, lets say... italian vices... for example if i am in a sea-beach i dont know, lets say in Kroatia. And i see a pair of my connationals, who are doing the "buffons" with sun glasses, anal perizomas etc. near some local girls (while the girls are laughing under their moustaches), trying to make them understand via hand gestures (cause the classic "italiota" knows very few words of foreign languages) looking a bit ridicoulous... well, we say: "look! there are some of our italioti connationals there..." sentences like this.

I don't know what an anal perizoma is, but it sounds painful.

[Although a scholarly looking tome found via Google and thence Amazon informs me that "perizoma" is both the Greek word for Etruscan hot pants, and a type of moth. Interesting how these words survive.]

[Obelics]

I don't know what an anal perizoma is, but it sounds painful.

[Although a scholarly looking tome found via Google and thence Amazon informs me that "perizoma" is both the Greek word for Etruscan hot pants, and a type of moth. Interesting how these words survive.]

perizoma is a kind of sea bathing-costume, very subtile and thin, who is much used not only by women, but even by men on the beach. Ok i checked the english dictionary this time, the word is "Thong". In my Italiota dark side, i usually thought that the word "perizoma", was an english word too, i discovered it isn't an english word...

Lesson learned, never use some "dangerous" words if you dont know the exact english translation:sweatdrop:.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thong_%28clothing%29

[QuintusSertorius]

For added confusion, in Australia a "thong" is a sandal.

[MerlinusCDXX]

For added confusion, in Australia a "thong" is a sandal.

And to confuse things even more, here in the US, "thong" refers to both a sandal (of the "flip-flop" variety) and the "perizoma", though a "perizoma" is also called a "G-string" in American English. Confused yet? :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
I am (and I live here).

[Maion Maroneios]

Very interesting to know these things, didn't know the perizoma was a thong, neither that thongs also means sandal in the US and Australia!

[Obelics]

now im even more confused, sandal is referred to the tree or the shoes? nono just joking i know you are refereing to the shoes:laugh4:

anyway in french it seems it is preferred the word "Tanga" (could be it is a transformation of the english Thong? or viceversa?), while in italian we have both words "tanga" and "perizoma" (but perizoma is more used than Tanga, in italian the word Tanga had a period of popularity during the 80' and early 90' while now i see everyone uses more the good old word "perizoma", at last it's just my impression, girls talk of perizomas not tangas, i dont hear the word "tanga" very often here), so is this word (perizoma) still used in neo-greek too? or have it some different meaning in modern greek? just curious cause it is a word of greek ethimology...

[Ayce]

Romanians use Tanga.


But what does this have to do with Epeirotes in Arpi? :wall::wall::wall:

[Obelics]

Romanians use Tanga.


But what does this have to do with Epeirotes in Arpi? :wall::wall::wall:

boh? i dont know:laugh4:

[Lysimachos]

Romanians use Tanga.


But what does this have to do with Epeirotes in Arpi? :wall::wall::wall:

Perhaps they are wearing them down at the epirotean beach club?

[Maion Maroneios]

lol

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Shame on you, hijacking my highly scientific thread... :no::whip: :grin:

To confuse even more, here in Germany we use Tanga and String-Tanga, which both all referring to the same thing. The word Tanga is from the Brasilian inventor of that type of cloth, who wasn't very good in orthography and wrote "tanga" instead of "targa". At least that's what I heard. Nevertheless the anglicism "String-Tanga" is slowly winning over the good old Tanga. :no: My compatriots like it as determining as it gets. See also the idiotic word "Düsenjet" for jet-aircraft, literally meaning "Jet-Jet". We love it American over here.

[Lysimachos]

Shame on you, hijacking my highly scientific thread... :no::whip: :grin:

Oh, this latest discussion is still very scientific, in a way :yes: :study:

[Obelics]

now im even more confused... I must say that in "real life" im enough sure, that Tanga in Italy is not used much like in the 80's and 90's, or at last i dont hear it that much, while perizoma is the word more common. The problem is, given my curiosity, i checked some of my paper dictionaris and some wikis on the internet. Well, there are two different wiki pages, one for "tanga" and one for "perizoma". Both pages says that "you have not to confond a tanga with a perizoma, cause people tend to confuse it" but then, in both pages there are the same pictures of the exact identical indument, So what's the difference?
In the "Tanga" wikipedia page, it says that a tanga differs from a perizoma, cause it can be just a subtile and thin line that divides the two part of the back.
in the "Perizoma" wikipedia page, it says that a perizoma differs from a tanga, for the exact same things, it can be just a subtile and thin line etc.
Boh? who knows.

anyway here's a summarization: Tanga as Centurion says is a Brasilian word. While Thong is a word that seems to come from the old english. So Tanga and Thong are not related, but both can refer to the same thing. "Thong" obviously seems more spreaded in the anglo-saxon world, while Tanga is more spreaded in the remaining countrys, included Germany where they use both the brasilian word + the english "G-string" so: Tanga-String.

In italy we can use both Tanga and Perizoma (of ancient greek ethimology), but Tanga seems (at last from my experience) more used in the 80's 90's (when the fashion of perizomas spreaded at the times, everyone called them Tangas, i was a child and i remember it, now that they are used even as underwear pants, it seems that the word perizoma, is more used, and it tend to cover sometimes the semanthical field of the word Tanga too, that despite seeming the same exact word, it could retain still a minimal difference).

A lesson could be that when a fashion spread, the foreign word, can have a certain success for a certain number of ages (see the cases of Tangas in italian language), but when the new fashion become a more common thing, if you had already a word for that (Perizoma), the original word can take the place of the foreign word (im just inventing here)


See also the idiotic word "Düsenjet" for jet-aircraft, literally meaning "Jet-Jet". We love it American over here.

I know what you say... that's sad, here's a funny example of the human stupidity, taken by my language:
In the Italian University they are spreading this "Tutors". Who is a tutor? it's just a guy who helps students etc.
Now tutor is an English word taken exactly from Latin. Well, you can imagine we have already our own evolution of the latin "tutor", this evolution is the italian word "tutore" (in fact the italian tend to use the ancient latin case "ablative" for almost all words). So now we have two different word.
The first one "tutor" is taken from english who taken it from latin, and it is used in the university.
The second one is the "natural" evolution of the latin word "tutor" and it is "tutore". It is used to indicate a guy who take care of an orphan as it was his father. Infact tutor is somwhat similar to a sort of auxiliary.

So the question is, if we, being italian an evolutio of latin, have already the word "tutore", that is the direct evolution of the latin "tutor" why we had to import a latin/english word from english that is the same exact latin word? couldn't we just use the italian word "tutore" for both meanings, one for the Uni, and one for the parental aid?

another example is this stupid word "forum" (internet forum). We, at some time had this need to use the english word "forum" that is the latin word "forum", while we have alpretty and ready the direct italian evolution of the latin word, and this word is "foro" (as i sayd italin evolved to use almost all ablative cases). So why not to say foro?

Just for curiousity i went to check a "spanish" forum, and with my huge surprise, do you know how the spanish call the internet forum? they call it "foro"!!!

So that's the demonstration that the spanish are more intelligent than us...

Even more ridiculous, is that the smart big baron professors want you to use the plural "fora" (while you have to explain them that they are not being so smart, they are just talking "english"), in fact the italian plural should be "fori", cause the neuter pluralia in "a", in the modern italian is lost. While in middle ages italian we still used for example the plural Castella, now it's Castelli (Castle).

So if i say "fora" im not talking correct italian (that is the "modern" latin). Im just speaking both "ancient latin" and "modern english"

[Ayce]

^^rant warning above^^

Well, „forum” is perfectly acceptable in Romanian as a recent Latin/Romance language borrowing, even though there is the native „for”. This doubling is quite common (ager-agil, drept-direct...), though it's odd because it comes from English, and keeps the original „-um” termination.

[Obelics]

^^rant warning above^^

yes ah i know, the perizoma/tanga thing was just to loose time... i was joking a bit on the hightly scientific discussion about this important clothes:whip:

anyway about the double words, that was enought common in history, and as we see it is still common, what it seems odd to me is that the actual vehicle of spreading this "new" double words (except some cases like the word "forum" who has been spreaded from the "low") there are a lot of other "new" double words (the example of "tutor") who has been spreaded by the "hight" so by people who is supposed to be the more cultured... that's odd.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Just for curiousity i went to check a "spanish" forum, and with my huge surprise, do you know how the spanish call the internet forum? they call it "foro"!!!

So that's the demonstration that the spanish are more intelligent than us...
Oh yes they are indeed the most intelligent of all. Not a single word is there that reaches the Spanish language un-destroyed and not adapted to Spanish orthography. Not even names! Alberto Durero = Albrecht Dürer; Carlos Linneo = Carl von Linné; Nueva York; etc...

[General Appo]

Carlos Linneo? Hilarious.

[Obelics]

Oh yes they are indeed the most intelligent of all. Not a single word is there that reaches the Spanish language un-destroyed and not adapted to Spanish orthography. Not even names! Alberto Durero = Albrecht Dürer; Carlos Linneo = Carl von Linné; Nueva York; etc...

ok, at a first view, it seems to be a bit at the borders of the chauvinism... but we have to say that a lot of names were latinized at the times by the guys themselves, so could be enough "normal" that they are become famous in the latin countries by their latinized names.

Carl Nilsson Linnaeus===> latinized: Carolus Linnaeus (it is still Linneo in italian too)
Geert Geertsz ===> Desiderius Erasmus Rotterdamus (spanish and Italian Erasmo da Rotterdam, he has become famous in the lazinized form in english too "Erasmus of Rotterdam")

regarding the spanish "Nueva York" italian"Nuova York" i have to say that it has been always "Nuova York" in italian too, but now everyone uses "New York", so id call the spanish case a little miracle if they still retain the old word "Nueva York".

anyway i dont want to overpass the limits of the chauvinism, but some little things like "foro" or to talk of somethink different, the french "ordinateur"/"logiciel" etc (for "computer" and "software"), are much more intelligent for me (really i dont see them like an act of chauvinism).

[machinor]

I demand this thread being awarded the Best-Thread-Hijacking-Ever-Award! :laugh4:

Regarding the latinisation or generally the "translation" of names to one's language... it was perfectly normal a few centuries ago and those translations remain until today (for example the French kings called Louis are still today called "Ludwig" in German). It would be quite funny to translate some more recent politician's name into different languages... take for example George Bush jr. or to think about Charles de Gaulle. :laugh4:
Man, I could give you examples of translations of German city/village names in South Tyrol inot Italian that would really make you roll on the floor with laughter (this was a quite polemic political topic favoured by nationalists on both sides around here...). ;)

Regarding the term "italiota"... I always thought it was kind of a fusion of "italiano" and "idiota" thus meaning "a person who is a stereotypical italian and an idiota".

[Obelics]

hmmm... regarding the hijack thing, i think im the only one here to have an almost whole AAR posted in the thread opened by another member....


Regarding the term "italiota"... I always thought it was kind of a fusion of "italiano" and "idiota" thus meaning "a person who is a stereotypical italian and an idiota".

could be, ive thought of that too, but i have my doubts, lets try to expand a bit the "Italiote" case, taking another similar case:

There are thise two words (i use the english equivalents here) Italiote and Italic

Italiote: greek speaking inhabitants of Magna Grecia
Italic: ancient Italian peoples (Oscan, Umbrians, Etruscans, Latin, Samnites, Volsci etc.)

those above are the scientific meanings, and they are written under an "1" on the dictionary.

Now both the words have in modern italian a second "popular" meaning (while they still retain the first scientifical meaning). It is written usually under a number "2" on the dictionary.
Both the second meaning for both words is a bit "downgraging" and related to stereotype, BUT, with a minimal difference. What is this difference?
I will explain it with an example on 2 identical sentences.

A) "here we see the typical Italic family (famiglia italica) in its car, that is going to sea-bath with all their saucepans full of foods wine etc."
B) "here we see the typical Italiota family (famiglia italiota) in its car, that is going to sea-bath with all their saucepans full of foods wine etc."

the 2 sentences are identical except for the use of the two different words "italic" and "italiote"
both the two sentences in italian, are trying to make some critics on the costumes of the tipical medium italian who use to take with him every thing, from the sausepans to the coffee machine and foods etc. even if he is going to the sea-beach. (this is a stereotypal image from some 60's 70's and movies like "The Easy Life" "I Mostri" etc.

Now both sentences "apparently" are downgrading the thing, but there is a difference.

In the sentence A, the use of the word Italico/italici (italic), is intend to give the scene, an appearence of "false glory", that's were the critic start. It is a joke on the fascist use of the word "italic" everywhere. So the real meaning is:

A) here the glorious italic family who is going to the sea-beach with all their glorious saucepans, coffee machines, wine etc... the humour here is the joke on a "rightist" stereotype.(if we want to use a political language)

in the sentence B, the use of the word Italiota/italioti (italiote), is intended to interpretate the scene in a more "simpathetic" view. If we want to use a political language, we would say that is a more "Leftist" view. The sense is:

B) here the good old italian family who is going to the sea-beach with all their poor saucepans, coffee machines, wine etc... they are good people, and theiy are exerciting their rights to have their good sea bath on the beach, despite they have still this use to take everything with them.

So if im using the sentence A, im joking on the stereotype of the old Italian Virtus (a sentence much used during the fascism)
If im using the sentence B, im joking (in a more leftist way) on a stereopthipe of the Echonomical Boom period, every one has the right to have its sea bath day on Sunday.

So that's to say, that when i say "italiota" im still downgrading it, but im being at the same time "simpatethic" with it.
So in my first example (that of the 2 italiotes connationals on the Kroatian sea-beach, im not saying they are 2 idiots, im just joking on their being simpletons, in a simpathetic way (some time with a slight point of envy, cause i have not the courage to stop random girls on the streets, and i would never wear a thong and sunglasses in my life, and i admit that it could be a simpleton, but they are having some fun in their own).

So in conclusion the first word "italic" is used to ironyze on the relics of a "glorious past" (fascist rethorics).
The second word "italiote" is used in a way more maternalistic and simpathetic. (using a political language, it is a more leftist way to joke at them)
But still the two word are used in a downgrading meaning.


It would be quite funny to translate some more recent politician's name into different languages... take for example George Bush jr. or to think about Charles de Gaulle. :laugh4:

hmmm, that is too much invitating... here's a few of my proposals, lets take the example of Bush:

italian/ pseudo-spanish
bush==> something related with trees and grass, so:
Giorgio Silvano
Giorgio Erboso (the grassy)

bush==>something related with "hairy" "hairs"
Giorgio Peloso (the hairy)
Giorgio Pelo
Giorgio Pilu (pilo/pelo means the single hair, yes it is the same of "pilum/pila" of the legionaries)

bush==>something related with that "thing"
Giorgio Figa:clown:

bush==>something related with that "hairy thing"
Giorgio Figa Pelosa or Giorgio Topa Pelosa:clown:

pseudo-spanish:
Giorgio de la Vulva Pelosa:clown: