View Full Version : Should Holocaust deniars be jailed?
(Note: I do not, in anyway, condone Holocaust deniars, neo-nazis, ro radical right wingers. I know the Holocaust occured, I do not deny it. This is a mere question I have proposed)
So, reading the laws regarding Holocaust Denial, I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?
No. It is ridiculous that in the fifteen-billion year history of the universe, one single event is not open to question.
For my part, I believe it happened.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-16-2008, 04:07
Nope. If people want to be idiots, they have every right to do so.
Nope. If people want to be idiots, they have every right to do so.
What he said.
Gaius Scribonius Curio
06-16-2008, 04:45
It comes down to freedom of thought and freedom of speech.
I for one believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and should be allowed to express their views. Whether they're idiots or not, whether they're are conspiracy theorists or not, or whether they are sane or not. If you don't agree with them then don't listen to them.
(I certainly don't!)
Why should one particular sort of offensive idiocy be illegal? Just say no to thoughtcrime. Freedom of expression rocks my world, baby.
Crazed Rabbit
06-16-2008, 05:02
No.
CR
El Diablo
06-16-2008, 05:33
Surely letting people say things "did not occur" is not a criminal act?
Whilst I can see that it is an imflamatory topic and highly charged - surely someone is allowed to have their opinion and voice it? Are these basic rights not what wars have been fought over?
A very small minority may think it a product of propoganda or an overstated attrocity but to ban them in voicing their "opinion" is pathetic.
Does that mean we will have to imprision the "flat earth" society?
Hey lets take it one step further - evolution v divine creation. Have a vote, a count up and then at the end imprision the minority for having an opinion.
No. People can have as many idiotic beliefs as they want and express them as much as they want, with a single condition - that what they express does not cause the harm of others. If someone wants to say the holocaust never happened, then they should be allowed to state that, whenever and wherever - if they had extremely bad taste, even in the accompany of Jewish people - but if they were to state, the holocaust never happened and look there is a Jew over there, lets go kill him - then, no, they should get punished in some way. (and the Jewish guy does get killed by someone) Just like people living in the West can denounce the West and have fundamentalist beliefs, but when they go around stating in public, bomb trains and behead civilians, that can't be right.
No. This is one case where it really is that simple. Again, hell no.
Spartan198
06-16-2008, 07:17
I agree with everyone else here. The mere hint of imprisoning someone simply for their own opinion (regardless of what that opinion is related to) is easily the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.
Just for the record, I know the Holocaust happened.
CountArach
06-16-2008, 09:10
The Government has no right to stop people saying what they want - No.
There is no reason to imprison such douchebags. Let the world laugh at them.
Adrian II
06-16-2008, 10:53
What they said.
HoreTore
06-16-2008, 11:24
If you wish to rid the world of idiots, education and debate is the way to go. Jailing the idiots isn't a good option.
FactionHeir
06-16-2008, 11:36
No, they shouldn't be jailed or fined.
In fact, doing so seems to aim at quelling any dissent, suggesting that maybe it didn't occur (y'know, gvt cover up and all) :tongue2:
Geoffrey S
06-16-2008, 12:31
They shouldn't be jailed for denying that the holocaust took place. However, frequently holocaust deniers are either guilty of professional misconduct (in the case of certain so-called historians), or are guilty of using such claims to incite racial hatred - both of which are punishable through fines, and at the very least ruining professional careers. That's enough in my opinion.
Maybe it's a bit harch to fine people for being stupid. In essense I agree about freedom of speech. Too bad neo-nazies get those rights too... Only danish newspapers are condemmed.
If I lost my family to the nazi death-camps I would certainly be hurt if somebody said I was a liar or delusional. Maybe as much as if somebody called me a jewish *** (don't know any jewish racial slurs...) or something like that. So what is the difference?
Remember that many millions lost family and friends in those camps. Not only jews, but also communists, handicapped, homosexuals, gypsies and policemen from occupied countries.
No, and I vote for a poll. :smash:
HoreTore
06-16-2008, 13:54
Only danish newspapers are condemmed.
Uhm, no... I can't think of a single time a nazi has said something and not been condemned...
Nope, why waste money on housing them in jails?
No. Jailing them gives them a vague sense of legitimacy, like the "government" doesn't want them spreading the word. They should be kept out in the open where people can point and laugh at them.
(Note: I do not, in anyway, condone Holocaust deniars, neo-nazis, ro radical right wingers. I know the Holocaust occured, I do not deny it. This is a mere question I have proposed)
So, reading the laws regarding Holocaust Denial, I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?
I am curious about a few things:
1. You're personal answer to the question you posed.
2. Are you surprised by the lopsided outcome of the responses?
3. What was your point to posting?
I find it odd to have such a question posed here in the backroom as it seems to be a forum of free thinkers anyway. The question posed seems to be answered by the very nature of the forum and its participants, yet no follow up adgenda:inquisitive:
I dont know your posting style, so I am curious. The holocaust is still a fairly sensative topic I have had a few misunderstandings about it here in my time. You've piqued my intrest, and for the record my answer is no I dont think they should be jailed.
Disclaimer: Just because I am curious as to your intent and reasoning dosent mean your wrong to post your query or need to justify it in anyway. However if you would oblige I would be most thankful. :medievalcheers:
misunderstandings
If you mean me I am still really sorry, and if you don't, still
If you mean me I am still really sorry, and if you don't, still
Yes you were one of them, we buried that hatchet frag its all good. Besides its just another example of how you changed my life. :flowers:
Yes you were one of them, we buried that hatchet frag its all good. Besides its just another example of how you changed my life. :flowers:
Good. I shoudln't post when drunk. But I am not going to fall for these flowers either :2thumbsup:
1. You're personal answer to the question you posed.
2. Are you surprised by the lopsided outcome of the responses?
3. What was your point to posting?
1. Well, it is tough for me. On one hand, jailing someone for an opinion, stupid as it may be, kind of blows in the face of "Free speech". On the other hand, this is an existing law put in place by a democratic government, and is (not to sure, if Husar would like to correct) open for amendment, this means that the people who do get jailed for this knowingly and willingly break a law put in place. And then there's wether or not people have this opinion because of poor education, or they use this to incite racial hatred and dissent.
2. Yes. I have posed this question to many before, and a lot of the answers I get contains the words "Insensitive", "Nazi", and "Racists". Therefore, this is the first time I really got the answer "People should not be jailed for opinion, even if it is stupid" especially when it comes to the Holocaust.
3. Simple question.
English assassin
06-16-2008, 22:22
The answer is obviously no, but this thread is way too boring if I say what I think, so I am going to say the opposite.
Lets look at the facts. The holocaust happened. I mean, it really, really obviously happened.
Why might someone deny that fact?
1) they are ignorant of the evidence for the holocaust. Well, OK. Personally, before rushing out with a really whacky and very offensive point of view, I would check my facts a touch, but we'll give these guys some slack. They need some info. That's fine, we give them a book and send them home.
2) They are not relating to the holocaust as a historical fact, but as something else. OK, this gets a bit darker. Why would someone need to believe industrialised murder of jews (and others but mainly jews) didn't happen? Why would they need to communicate that belief. What agenda are they promoting, and should they be allowed public space to promote it? Is there a danger that their beleif may come to be seen to be legitimate? Maybe, even, a valid point of view?
I don't know about criminalisation, but there is a difference between being open minded and saying everything goes. If we are criminalsing not a private opinion but public advocacy, well, maybe its OK to impose some rules on public debate.
Ah, hell, I haven't even managed to convince myself. As you were, gentlemen.
Nice to see you around, Odin.
Tribesman
06-16-2008, 22:39
They shouldn't be jailed , they should be pilloried for their views, the entertainment value would be massive .
2) They are not relating to the holocaust as a historical fact, but as something else. OK, this gets a bit darker. Why would someone need to believe industrialised murder of jews (and others but mainly jews) didn't happen? Why would they need to communicate that belief. What agenda are they promoting, and should they be allowed public space to promote it? Is there a danger that their beleif may come to be seen to be legitimate? Maybe, even, a valid point of view?
I was hopeing someone would go down this road to liven it up a bit. I guess the same could be said for enforcing a law against speaking ill of an event in human history? Guilt is a poweful emotion and criminalizing something that envokes it might be a little to preemptive for my taste.
Nice to see you around, Odin.
Thanks EA, glad to see you as well. I might have to go back in the field again in the fall but for now I will be around soiling the good name of the backroom. :thumbsup:
1. Well, it is tough for me. On one hand, jailing someone for an opinion, stupid as it may be, kind of blows in the face of "Free speech". On the other hand, this is an existing law put in place by a democratic government, and is (not to sure, if Husar would like to correct) open for amendment, this means that the people who do get jailed for this knowingly and willingly break a law put in place. And then there's wether or not people have this opinion because of poor education, or they use this to incite racial hatred and dissent.
2. Yes. I have posed this question to many before, and a lot of the answers I get contains the words "Insensitive", "Nazi", and "Racists". Therefore, this is the first time I really got the answer "People should not be jailed for opinion, even if it is stupid" especially when it comes to the Holocaust.
3. Simple question.
Thank you for the timely and direct reply, I appreciate it. :yes:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-16-2008, 23:56
They shouldn't be jailed , they should be pilloried for their views, the entertainment value would be massive .
I can see it now: Sieg *cabbage to the face*
Adrian II
06-17-2008, 00:18
Nice to see you around, Odin.Yes, that too. :yes:
Yes, that too. :yes:
:thumbsup:
You EU boys always make me blush....
Thank you for the timely and direct reply, I appreciate it. :yes:
No rebuttals? :2thumbsup:
Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.
CountArach
06-17-2008, 08:54
Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.
Why is that?
Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.
Please, don't post. I do not wish this thread to be locked.
Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism, and even though I agree that the USSR had crimes, due to past reading, I will view the comment anti Russian as well
Tribesman
06-17-2008, 09:46
Yep = same like deniars of Polish crimes
:2thumbsup:
CountArach
06-17-2008, 09:51
Haha Tribsey :2thumbsup: :laugh4:
:2thumbsup:
Win, but I see where this will go, unfortunately.
HoreTore
06-17-2008, 12:32
I can see it now: Sieg *cabbage to the face*
Personally, I've always been a big fan of smacking when it comes to dealing with the politically retarded...
I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?
no they should not.
Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism
Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky? ~:idea:
Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky? ~:idea:
Maybe he did, but why anyone would want to shut up Krook is beyond me. He is by far one of the most entertaining backroom goers we have and should be considered for senior membership for his well thought out contributions.
Don Corleone
06-17-2008, 19:20
Odin, cant' believe I haven't said this before, but welcome back from the Long Dark Night we all wander into from time to time. Good to have you back. I credit my rudeness to an enduring disbelief that you were ever really gone. ~:cheers:
I'm going the EA route and making an argument for outlawing holocaust denial (though I personally think you turn the lights on cockroaches, not stamp your feet and make them run & hide).
Our grandfathers weren't idiots. They had just witnessed one of the worst wars in mankind's history, and in absolute scale, it was the worst. But I think what scared them the absolute most was how thinking, rational people in Germany, Austria and other places could have been led to such a place (no offense to my German and Austrian friends. There were plenty of Nazis in the US in the 30's).
The violence rattled them, surely, but the ideas that had been pressed through Goebel's information machine and accepted as unassailable facts, this terrified them more than anything they had ever known. It would be as though after getting into Kabul, we learned that the Taliban had convinced the Afghans that the Sun was a death ray put in the sky by the USA, and therefore they only came out at night.
I think the legal minds of the time reacted rather strongly to this phenomenon. They wanted to make certain another Ministry for Public Enlightenment (Goebbel's little after-school club) could never come to pass. The laws against the Holocaust are as much laws against Gleichschaltung as anything else. And when you look at what they were able to accomplish in 15 short years, you understand why our grandfathers had the reaction they did. It happened so quickly, so thoroughly, and so beyond the bounds of human reason, our grandfathers were terrified about propaganda and misuse of information. Laws against denying the holocaust were seen as a 'canary in the coal-mine' if you will. So I understand them. I think their time has come and gone, however.
Odin, cant' believe I haven't said this before, but welcome back from the Long Dark Night we all wander into from time to time. Good to have you back. I credit my rudeness to an enduring disbelief that you were ever really gone. ~:cheers:
Thanks Don, you are still one of only a few people here that can reel me in via a PM and make me exhale. :thumbsup:
Sarmatian
06-18-2008, 03:02
What everybody else said on the issue.
On a similar issue, what do you say about those guys that don't question the holocaust but the numbers? Is there a point to that? Does it make a difference whether it was 2 millions, 5 millions or 10 millions?
And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today? Just wondering what makes Jews so special? Slavs were treated in very similar way, and in the end around 30 million Slavs was killed. Russian, Poles etc... Or the Chinese. How many of them were massacred?
I remember talking to some friends who were in Berlin as part of some student exchange organization and made a nice presentation about the city. They said that several years ago a cemetary was built that was supposed to be a memorial for all victims of the WW2. But under pressure, it was changed to exclusively Jewish memorial, although one already exists in Berlin.
Bottom line, are Jewish victims put before other victims? And if they are, do you think that is ok?
P.S. Should this be a separate thread?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-18-2008, 03:05
On a similar issue, what do you say about those guys that don't question the holocaust but the numbers? Is there a point to that? Does it make a difference whether it was 2 millions, 5 millions or 10 millions?
Historical fact always needs questioning and confirmation, if it is done in an educated manner. It's still just as terrible no matter how many millions were killed.
And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today?
Yes, it is. Indeed. There was an interesting incident with the DB a while back...I'll try to find a link.
El Diablo
06-18-2008, 05:06
And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today?
I think that most countires/cultures/religions/races can use examples in history to plead that they were hard done by. Hell throw sex in there as well as woman have been oppressed as well.
But this kind of looking back just breeds more of the same in my opinion. The situation in Northern Ireland is an example. He did A to me - yeah because you did B to me - well I did that beacuse you did C and so on...
I do not think that anyone, German or otherwise (barring those that committed it) have to say sorry for the holocaust. This huge guilt, for an act commited so long ago that it will soon pass from memory to history, to be placed on a people that were not even born is pathetic.
Yes, learn about it in schools so that it (hopefully) will never happen again but feel no guilt.
I feel no guilt for the atomic bombs dropped on Japan in the war by my countries allies, I feel no guilt for the fire bombing of Dresden by the country my mother was born in. I am sad these things happened - but it is history now. Build a bridge and get over it.
Yes this may sound cold and heartless, but it is not. I genually feel sad and regret that these things happened. I just don't feel guilty. Does this make sence or is the meaning lost in my writing?
Seamus Fermanagh
06-18-2008, 05:24
I think Tribesman is on the right track here.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.
Propounding a view that denies acknowledged and verified facts -- though I do not believe it should be criminal -- provides the listener with an easy means of evaluating the contributions made. Such voluntary proof of idiocy does, I agree, warrant ridicule.
PanzerJaeger
06-18-2008, 06:14
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.
The problem is that many of the facts are not actually facts, but are estimations.
I can understand the government lockdowns on Holocaust denial, as it is very easy to cast doubt on much of what is claimed to have happened. Most people do not have the will to do any serious research of their own, and before the internet, did not have the resources either.
ajaxfetish
06-18-2008, 07:18
Scorned and derided, yes. Jailed, no. I rather like Tribesman's suggestion.
Ajax
I absolutely agree with Tribesman :2thumbsup:
If anyone want proof about jews murdering Poles - read about Salomon Morel or Helena Wolinska.
Tribesman
06-18-2008, 15:21
And if anyone wants evidence of the polish role in helping slaughter the Jews read the SS and German police reports .
Interesting that you mention Morel Krook , who was it who killed his parents and brothers and their families ?
I absolutely agree with Tribesman :2thumbsup:
If anyone want proof about jews murdering Poles - read about Salomon Morel or Helena Wolinska.
You mind kind of like te German minorities in Poland being expelled and even killed by Soviet and Polish troops?
Tribesman
06-18-2008, 18:59
You mind kind of like te German minorities in Poland being expelled and even killed by Soviet and Polish troops?
Noooooooo that was the Jews , don't you know that they are responsible for not only communism and capitalism but Polish nationalism too .
Seamus Fermanagh
06-18-2008, 19:02
The problem is that many of the facts are not actually facts, but are estimations.
I can understand the government lockdowns on Holocaust denial, as it is very easy to cast doubt on much of what is claimed to have happened. Most people do not have the will to do any serious research of their own, and before the internet, did not have the resources either.
Numerous facts supporting the systematic murder through negligence and overt execution of thousands upon thousands of people labeled as "undesireables" by the Nazi regime have surfaced. Yes, a number of the figures associated with the scope of the "Final Solution" are estimates based on these known facts rather than verified facts of themeselves. However, quibbling over the accuracy of estimates of the number of Jews versus Gypsies killed and the like is akin to re-arranging deck chairs on the SS Titanic -- it may be a laudable search for precision, but you are REALLY missing the larger point.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-18-2008, 21:28
Numerous facts supporting the systematic murder through negligence and overt execution of thousands upon thousands of people labeled as "undesireables" by the Nazi regime have surfaced. Yes, a number of the figures associated with the scope of the "Final Solution" are estimates based on these known facts rather than verified facts of themeselves. However, quibbling over the accuracy of estimates of the number of Jews versus Gypsies killed and the like is akin to re-arranging deck chairs on the SS Titanic -- it may be a laudable search for precision, but you are REALLY missing the larger point.
Well, exact Holocaust numbers are the realm of educated historians to debate. If they want to debate where between five and seven million the exact number was, they have every right to do so. It is pointless, because we will never know the exact number, but it's not Holocaust denial, it's not missing the larger point, and it can be done without any disrespect to Jews. I don't think Panzer is questioning the Holocaust, just stating that all numbers are not 100% accurate - which is true. The difference between, say, six million and five million nine hundred thousand is pretty inconsequential.
I hope my point is understood properly.
Oh, and by the way, I found my earlier article:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2303811,00.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/14/2215799.htm
The Holocaust was, in this case, being exploited by the organizers of this train, who called the Deutsche Bahn head a Nazi simply because he refused to massively disrupt the train schedule in Berlin for a moving Holocaust museum.
Goofball
06-18-2008, 21:36
It should never be illegal to hold an opinion, however misguided that opinion may be.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-19-2008, 18:53
Deniaaaaaaar!!
:gah:
Difference beetwen Poland and Israel
Poles who were killing Jewish civilians are criminals here (however I have big respect for Poles who were killing jewish and non jewish members of NKWD). Jews who were killing Poles and German civilians are heroes of Israel.
Its truth that Morel killed mostly German civilians or people accused of supporting Germans. However he killed civilians and should be sentenced for that. He has not been due to help given by jewish state.
Who killed Morels brother - polish communists. Why? Because Morel and his brother organised band of criminals who robbed Polish civilians and polish communits catched that band (during WW2 all polish resistance was not only fighting with Germans, but with criminals too). Why Morel has not been killed - he put blame on his brother.
Of course into enlish Wikipedia (this edited by english language Jews) its being written that Morel has been into Auschwitz. However no one saw him there and dozens of people saw him not into Auschwitz.
All in all I think I ought to change my mind. Holocaust denials should be jailed only if Jews stop denying their crimes.
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 11:05
Well if anyone had any doubts that krook is a raving anti semite I am sure they are now thoroughly dispelled .
Though of course it does raise the question , are Nazis just stupid or is it a form of mental illness that they cannot help , or perhaps a combination of the two .
BTW just to point out more crap Krooks claim about the worldwide jewish conspiracy editing wikipedia is slightly undermined by most editing of the article being done by Indians and Poles .
Then again given the nature of the tripe he wrote that doesn't really need pointing out ...bloody Nazis aren't they strange .
Louis VI the Fat
06-20-2008, 11:54
Well if anyone had any doubts that krook is a raving anti semite I am sure they are now thoroughly dispelled .
Though of course it does raise the question , are Nazis just stupid or is it a form of mental illness that they cannot help , or perhaps a combination of the two .
BTW just to point out more crap Krooks claim about the worldwide jewish conspiracy editing wikipedia is slightly undermined by most editing of the article being done by Indians and Poles .
Then again given the nature of the tripe he wrote that doesn't really need pointing out ...bloody Nazis aren't they strange .Why you who is trying to put mental illness on nazis when irish are war criminels against inglish? before you trying to put into pole what is irish you should take big pole out of your own behind?
And no such thing as bloody nasiz they are all crispy clean becuase they waipe blood of clothes always
Geoffrey S
06-20-2008, 11:58
Why you who is trying to put mental illness on nazis when irish are war criminels against inglish? before you trying to put into pole what is irish you should take big pole out of your own behind?
And no such thing as bloody nasiz they are all crispy clean becuase they waipe blood of clothes always
Fixed for you.
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 12:32
Louis that is really good :2thumbsup:
Cruel but good , though of course it does raise the question , does it constitute cruelty to dumb animals ?
Banquo's Ghost
06-20-2008, 12:38
OK chaps, jokes are one thing but personal attacks quite another.
Please lay off the latter.
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 13:34
Please lay off the latte
Too much caffiene BG ?
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 13:39
Perhaps some keks with your coffee
http://www.recipelink.com/mf/21/84
There is always a place for fruitcakes , an airtight tin is a good place to keep them .
Adrian II
06-20-2008, 13:46
That's right, folks. Get the thread locked, give Krook an excuse to feel a martyr.
The Guild expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.
:shame:
Louis VI the Fat
06-20-2008, 16:31
Three pages of people dismissing historical revisionism in the harshest of terms. Agreeing that public ridicule is a good counter-measure. Yet, when revisionism presents itself in fact, not in theory, and is duly satirised, people panic?
The .org is not for flame wars, nor should I take baits. But I've also been taught not to remain silent in the face of revisionism. It could be argued that the odd harsh satire and ridicule of revisionism might, in fact, be a proper reaction.
Adrian II
06-20-2008, 16:38
Three pages of people dismissing historical revisionism in the harshest of terms. Agreeing that public ridicule is a good counter-measure. Yet, when revisionism presents itself in fact, not in theory, and is duly satirised, people panic?
The .org is not for flame wars, nor should I take baits. But I've also been taught not to remain silent in the face of revisionism. It could be argued that the odd harsh satire and ridicule of revisionism might, in fact, be a proper reaction.One can ridicule his views, not his person.
OK, so since when am I a moderator?
I know I'm not. I am just a member stating my view.
Louis VI the Fat
06-20-2008, 16:54
One can ridicule his views, not his person.Oui papa. :shame:
Some evil supernatural force stole my ability to write coherent English some time ago. It's just gone, my pen has abandoned me, my mind restracted itself in a monolinguistic state. And satire needs to be a chrystal clear, razorsharp precision instrument. It is not to be wielded as a blunt sword by the incompetent. :embarassed:
I'll go and rewatch my Blackadder DVD's before another attempt at biting satire.
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 17:05
Some evil supernatural force stole my ability to write coherent English some time ago.
That was the Jews, they always do things like that , you are lucky they just stole it they could well have murdered you , in fact they would have murdered you if you was Polish .
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-20-2008, 17:49
Three pages of people dismissing historical revisionism in the harshest of terms. Agreeing that public ridicule is a good counter-measure. Yet, when revisionism presents itself in fact, not in theory, and is duly satirised, people panic?
I would disagree with the common negative connotation of historical revisionism. The definition of historical revisionism is the critical reexamination of historical facts. There's nothing wrong with revisionism, as long as it is done in an educated manner by educated historians, as I have stated before.
It should never be illegal to hold an opinion, however misguided that opinion may be.
Goofwad sums it up quite nicely with this post.
Banquo's Ghost
06-20-2008, 18:45
One can ridicule his views, not his person.
Indeed. Satire, as Louis so wisely states, should be a rapier not a cosh.
OK, so since when am I a moderator?
I know I'm not. I am just a member stating my view.
The quite extraordinary thing about this forum - and especially the Backroom - is that most members are moderators - in behaviour and expectation. That is, the level of personal responsibility and politeness alongside a gentle respect for others is astonishingly high and mostly requires naught more from those of us cursed with the tea towel than an occasional tap on the tiller.
I guess this is an appropriate place to state how grateful I am for that consideration and thus how pleasant it makes this job.
:bow:
Too much caffiene BG?
Probably. :wink:
Now, back to topic you varmints! :beadyeyes2:
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 19:45
Now, back to topic you varmints!
So now , since there is general agreement that idiots should not be jailed for their views it does raise the question , how do you put an idiot in the pillory without making it personal ?
Ohh please guys
you are so strong attacking me
please explain what is wrong with materials i wrote?
or give any proof of your statements
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 20:35
There is nothing wrong with what you wrote Krook , it is just that what appeared in your posts was nonsense of a rather vile nature, I of course understand that the nonsense was not written by you but was the result of the Jews hacking the system as part of their subhuman global conspiracy to make you look like an anti-semetic fool .
I would suggest a decent anti virus program and a thorough scan of your computer to ensure that in future the Jews cannot alter your words to make you look stupid .
Maybe Krook should say pre-Israeli instead of jew, it's that slit-second that makes that first impression. Jew -> awwwww Israeili -> grrrrrrr why not use it. But you can all laugh what you want but he doesn't say anything that isn't true.
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 21:03
So Frag you believe in a Jewish conspiracy that alters information on the internet ?
PanzerJaeger
06-20-2008, 21:20
OK chaps, jokes are one thing but personal attacks quite another.
Except in PMs, right old boy? :slomo:
Ohh please guys
you are so strong attacking me
please explain what is wrong with materials i wrote?
or give any proof of your statements
The vast Jewish conspiracy has much broader plans than changing wikipedia. They want... POLAND!
Seriously though, are you're views common in Poland? Lessons apparently have not been learned. :no:
Banquo's Ghost
06-20-2008, 22:13
Except in PMs, right old boy? :slomo:
Private messages are just that, private. If you want to complain in public, there's the Watchtower and I'll be quite happy to defend my actions publicly.
So now , since there is general agreement that idiots should not be jailed for their views it does raise the question , how do you put an idiot in the pillory without making it personal ?
Usually by doing what you do so well most of the time: demonstrating that their views are utterly wrong and baseless. Personal vilification merely cedes the high ground - exposure is so much more compelling.
Tribesman
06-20-2008, 22:29
Banquo , I would have to go a lot further than I have to cede any ground whatsoever to someone who is clearly a nationalist anti-semite .
Though I must apologise if some of my previous posts seem to have infringed forum rules , but I insist that it wasn't me it was the elders of Zion following their protocols who edited my words to make them look personaly insulting to Krook and his "ideas" .
PanzerJaeger
06-20-2008, 23:03
Private messages are just that, private. If you want to complain in public, there's the Watchtower and I'll be quite happy to defend my actions publicly.
No way. Hypocrisy is slightly entertaining, but nothing to complain about... :shrug:
Have a good day. ~:wave:
When someone is starting personal attacks on his opponent, he has no arguments into discussion.
Thank you for personal attacks.
Geoffrey S
06-20-2008, 23:40
Like the post about Morel, perhaps?
Louis VI the Fat
06-20-2008, 23:57
Seriously though, are you're views common in Poland?I've been to Poland twice - had some great times. I visited Cracow, and we teamed up with some Polish students there whom we had contacted over the internets. They had organised a great lecture on Polish history for us, by their professor at their university. In the middle of the old town, right next to a statue of their most famous lecturer, Copernicus. It was bliss.
Indeed, they have another version of history. Very interesting. It was not they who were ignorant. It was us who received a much needed eye-opener. New, overlooked perspectives. History is different if you've just spend two centuries between Germany and Russia. When WWII was fought right at your doorstep, at a crossroads of German, Jewish and Polish culture, 10 kilometers from Auschwitz. Much of it showed the shortcomings of the history we were accustomed to. And some of it was a bit peculiar, yes. But no, there was no anti-Semitic revisionism in it.
Or so at least they told me later that night, for Louis spend most of the lecture struggling with hangovers from the hot Polish nights - great people, great beers, great prices. :yes:
Norman Davies is an English scholar who has written a great history of Europe from a more Central-European perspective. In fact, he has studied in Cracow. He must be the best English language source for a Polish perspective.
Louis VI the Fat
06-20-2008, 23:58
Ohh please guys
you are so strong attacking me
please explain what is wrong with materials i wrote?
or give any proof of your statements For all I care everything you wrote is true. Ancient revisionist tactics. Dig up a story of a Jew who didn't go to Auschwitz, and present it as proof of 'Jewish Lies!'. Find a story about a Jewish murderer, and present it as evidence for 'complex war situations' that 'surely warrant' further investigations into the 'real events' of WWII. Harass and insult Jews or the state of Israel with it, and then cry that if they 'cover up' their crimes, then surely we, who openly admit our part in the crimes, can claim the moral high ground?
Even if everything you wrote is true, it is nowhere near as clever as it looks. What is wrong about it is to put Jewish and German (or Polish) crimes on an equal footing, to constantly emphasize crimes comitted by Jews, and in so doing revise WWII history into some sort of civil war between European Jewry and Germany. I, for one, do not share the opinion that 'World Jewry' needs to apologise to Poland or Germany for its 'war crimes' in 1939-1945. Nor that World Jewry is trying to cover up these crimes and is protecting its many war criminals from this period. To put it mildly.
Tribesman
06-21-2008, 00:09
When someone is starting personal attacks on his opponent, he has no arguments into discussion.
When someones contribution is complete rubbish the only thing to say is that it is complete rubbish . Calling someone a racist idiot is not a personal attack it is an accurate response to the tripe they have written which can only be described as racist idiocy .
Adrian II
06-21-2008, 00:40
Oui papa. :shame:How touching that you thought my words were meant specially for you. They were not. Not at all in fact.
Whatever...
You know what, Louis? I have learned that blunt accusations of antisemitism, idiocy and lying on this board usually hurt the wrong persons, not the targets they were intended to hurt. Need I go on?
PanzerJaeger
06-21-2008, 04:15
I've been to Poland twice - had some great times. I visited Cracow, and we teamed up with some Polish students there whom we had contacted over the internets. They had organised a great lecture on Polish history for us, by their professor at their university. In the middle of the old town, right next to a statue of their most famous lecturer, Copernicus. It was bliss.
Indeed, they have another version of history. Very interesting. It was not they who were ignorant. It was us who received a much needed eye-opener. New, overlooked perspectives. History is different if you've just spend two centuries between Germany and Russia. When WWII was fought right at your doorstep, at a crossroads of German, Jewish and Polish culture, 10 kilometers from Auschwitz. Much of it showed the shortcomings of the history we were accustomed to. And some of it was a bit peculiar, yes. But no, there was no anti-Semitic revisionism in it.
Or so at least they told me later that night, for Louis spend most of the lecture struggling with hangovers from the hot Polish nights - great people, great beers, great prices. :yes:
Norman Davies is an English scholar who has written a great history of Europe from a more Central-European perspective. In fact, he has studied in Cracow. He must be the best English language source for a Polish perspective.
Interesting observations Louis. I'm sure perspectives are quite different in most Warsaw Pact nations. I know that East Germans were taught that they were not responsible for the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes.
Thanks :bow:
First this has been simply a beautiful thread, chaulk filled with the sarcastic bile that digs right at the heart of peoples pride that really gets me going. Literally, I have been laughing here for nearly 4 minutes just over the back and forths, this thread should be framed and put in a museum so 100 years from now school children can see how the web helped us evolve into better human beings. :thumbsup:
However entertaining I find deniars myself, when one denies an event of the proportions we are discussing here, it lends others to think that they have an adgenda to further or they are ignorant of history.
My mother in law was in germany during the war, her father brother and whole family were nazi's. She knew, all of her german friends knew, what was happening to the jews and undersirables. I have talked to her a lot about this, she was a teen girl at the time so I dont hold her morally responsible but I never really get a direct answer on the whole "how could you not say something" line of questions.
I have heard everything from fear to disbelief of the crimes committed but I never have had her deny that there was a systematic industrial killing of jews in Nazi germany. She has told me stories about people she knew that went to their deaths in the camps, it always amazes me the matter of fact way in which she can recount the details of life then. seeing people harassed, kicked beaten in the street.... then a few days later there gone.
She isnt a deniar, but she is about the only person I could fathom would be because she lived it, and if apart of her didnt deny it I'm sure that the guilt could be crushing. I asked her once (something like this not verbatum) "Inge, how is it that no one realized the scope of what was happening, there were box cars filled with children or people in just about every metro area heading to their deaths"
Her reply was something along the lines of "Not every train carried off the people, it was usually only one or two trains a day for the first few years anyway"
But hey she was there so I'll afford her some denial shes an old woman. :thumbsdown:
please explain what is wrong with materials i wrote?
Here.
Jews who were killing Poles and German civilians are heroes of Israel.
You're so wrong it hurts. The Blue Police must be the national heroes of Poland as well.
Its truth that Morel killed mostly German civilians or people accused of supporting Germans. However he killed civilians and should be sentenced for that. He has not been due to help given by jewish state.
Morel was Polish, wasn't he?
The Israeli letter rejecting extradition states that Morel joined the partisans of the Red Army in 1942, and was in the forests when his parents, sister-in-law, and brother were killed by Polish Blue Police officers; the next year, his brother was killed by a Polish fascist
Here is another Polish hero, Czesław Gęborski. Maybe you have heard of him? The one who decided to set fire to a barracks at Stalag VIII-B prison camp, then fired on the prisoners trying to put it out. I'm sure you'll dismiss it as Jewish propoganda, though.
I'm not saying he was a good man, but this anti-semetism stinks of BS.
We allow people like this to post? Man, maybe we should review our "Dumb opinion" statements :sweatdrop:
When someones contribution is complete rubbish the only thing to say is that it is complete rubbish . Calling someone a racist idiot is not a personal attack it is an accurate response to the tripe they have written which can only be described as racist idiocy .
That be Jew propoganda!
I see a bad end to this.
So Frag you believe in a Jewish conspiracy that alters information on the internet ?
That no, ok not everything. But the aftermath of WW2 wasn't pretty.
Tribesman
06-21-2008, 07:32
That no, ok not everything. But the aftermath of WW2 wasn't pretty.
Yes it wasn't pretty , but take a Krook example .
What on earth does Wolinskas parentage have to do with anything when it comes to her role in Stalins show trials ?
Nothing whatsoever , absolutely nothing at all . So calling a communist crime a Jewish crime shows that he is talking bollox , if he is talking bollox it isn't a matter of aggreeing with "everything" it is a matter of seeing if there is even the slightest "something" in any of what he wrote . And it is very hard to see anything at all worthwhile in anything he wrote .
Seriously , even the signature screams deniar and anti-semite .
We allow people like this to post? Man, maybe we should review our "Dumb opinion" statements
No , dumb opinions must be allowed , just pillory the idiots at every oppertunity:tomato:
Make that 'some truth in his statements' :beam:
Geoffrey S
06-21-2008, 07:53
Norman Davies is an English scholar who has written a great history of Europe from a more Central-European perspective. In fact, he has studied in Cracow. He must be the best English language source for a Polish perspective.
Prof.dr. Nicolette Mout is also well worth looking into. Interesting views on the development of Central Europe.
The Israeli letter rejecting extradition states that Morel joined the partisans of the Red Army in 1942, and was in the forests when his parents, sister-in-law, and brother were killed by Polish Blue Police officers; the next year, his brother was killed by a Polish fascist
1. Morel has not been Pole - he was Jew.
2. Communists (polish, jewish or russian) were massive killing Poles after ww2. However Jews were elite of NKWD. They were doing their job with passion - especially when killing members of Country Army - polish resistance who protected both Poles and Jews during ww2.
3. So tell me - who finally killed Morels family? Blue Police or Auschwitz creed? Because according to your previous post, whole his family has been killed into Auschwitz. I know :2thumbsup: They were killed twice!!!!
4. Probably your source is Israeli reply on polish request of extradition.
http://www1.ipn.gov.pl/download.php?s=1&id=1981
I have never seen such a bunch of lies. This is my source when I'm talking that Jewish state is covering war criminals.
Here is IPN material about Morel - temporary unaivalable into english however should be made soon.
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=pl&dzial=2&id=812
Telling that Jews did not commit war crimes is biggest ww2 lie.
And best accusation of Morel.
That poor holocausted Jew forced polish prisoners to sing nazist songs and hurt them if they didn't know words. Yep - I think it was his dream to join arian race. Could someone tell me why people who love nazist songs are protected by Israel?
HoreTore
06-21-2008, 09:43
1. Morel has not been Pole - he was Jew.
Uhm, no, he was both.
Tribesman
06-21-2008, 10:26
1. Morel has not been Pole - he was Jew.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Well what more can be said about the bollox who uses the name Krook ?
Oh something simple
I have never seen such a bunch of lies. This is my source when I'm talking that Jewish state is covering war criminals.
such a bunch of lies :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:you will obviously be able to show the the law that says there is no time limit on those crimes and that the statuary limitations have not indeed been exceeded in this case . But as you cannot it really is yet another case of you talking bollox .
However Jews were elite of NKWD.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Keks :thumbsdown:
Polish Nazis eh :dizzy2:
It should be noted that the site Krook says is unavailable is available in English , just go to the link on Wiki and read for yourself . Also available is the full letter from the the Isreali government to the Polish government . Though of course maybe they have have been edited by the worldwide Jewish cabal who have managed to infiltrate a Polish state funded organisation and altered their records .
Oh and if you want a good laugh at Krook read the bit about the Nazis in the prison camp and try and tie it in with this crap he wrote.....
And best accusation of Morel.
That poor holocausted Jew forced polish prisoners to sing nazist songs and hurt them if they didn't know words. Yep - I think it was his dream to join arian race. Could someone tell me why people who love nazist songs are protected by Israel?
Absolutely undeniably a complete Kek . Or perhaps just a slice of rotten stale Kek that should have been put in an airtight container long ago .
CountArach
06-21-2008, 12:34
This thread is full of win :2thumbsup:
Banquo's Ghost
06-21-2008, 13:32
Sadly, I believe this thread has deteriorated beyond recall.
If anyone can convince me by PM that we should continue, please do so, but for now it is closed.
There were some very interesting contributions, so thanks for all that tried.
:closed:
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.