View Full Version : Any equivalent of warrior monks and Naginata cavalry?
Just curious, in Shogun, you could beat the AI by climbing the tech tree faster to get warrior monks and naginata cavalry, which could devastate a standard archer and spearman army. Playing mainly Catholic countries in MTW, I haven't found any tech improvements of equivalent significance. Basic spearmen - or better feudals - hold out pretty well for most of the early games I play. As English, I head for longbowmen and billmen, but they seem only incrementally better than the alternatives. Heavy cavalry don't seem worth the investment - you can get by on your royal knights and light cav.
I guess it makes for a better - more balanced - game that there are no "killer" units, but I just wanted to check I was not missing anything obvious.
For me, the biggest tech priority is getting a navy going - it is the trade income that generates, rather than troop quality, that gives me a decisive edge over the AI.
[This message has been edited by Simon Appleton (edited 10-23-2002).]
IMHO naginata cavalry=chivalric knights and gothic knights; monks=AUM.
Rosacrux
10-23-2002, 16:30
I don't think you can approach MTW with a simplistic approach like in STW - meaning that the monk rush is not any more possible. You have to find the right unit for the right situation and countering the AI is not always "piece of cake" as it was in STW.
Experiment, experiment, experiment. Only way to find your very own killer units.
There are numerous killer units out there (upgraded spear units, Billmen, Longbows, Byz. cavalry, Byz. inf, AUMs and a few others) but none of them is the killer unit (like monks were in STW) and all can be countered.
Well I have played Shogun and loved it but without any add ons. So I don't know the dynamics of the Naginata cavalry. The best STW mounted unit I have experienced is the Heavy Cavalry. Heavy cav of MTW is surely more powerfull and realistic than STW. They are far more hard to take down and they will not suffer more than 1-5 losses when they slaughter fleeing opponents (I lost 70 out of 120 of Heavy Cav that way once in STW). Now as for Warrior Monks.I believe that Vangian Guards are the "Warrior Monks" of Medieval though I have only played Byzantines. I recall a huge battle against the Pope when my whole infantry line of defence of 700 Byz.Inf. and 100 spearmen where smashed under a full knight charge,and fled leaving alone a unit of Byz.Inf.(general) and the Varagians. Defending in the woods they repeled several charges from cavalry(mostly) and UM.Finaly they pushed them all back and alone won the battle.
cart6566
10-23-2002, 16:47
I might add Jinnettes to the killer unit list. And Halberds with the proper upgrades, esp. morale. I've heard Boyars are good too, haven't used em yet though.
Rosacrux
10-23-2002, 16:55
Well, patriotaki, Varangian are good (ok, not good, awesome) but they don't come even close to the absolute power house the warrior monks used to be.
Since 80% of my playing is also withe the Byzantines and I have a certain fondness for those axe-weilding norsemen, I tend to use Varangians alot. They do not rout enemies half as effectively as WMs did, and they also take more losses per time unit compared to WMs.
the closest I got from a killing units was the lancers.
Outrageously priced (1100), but once you get them (probably with nice upgrades since we're very late in the game) they are the closest to the medieval Tiger II.
I don't like heavy cavalery, but they took my breath away. They chew up all spear and non spear units likewise. But of course once you're in a position to get them, you have already won the game anyway.
Yes file Rosacrux I agree in a way. I believe that their power is the same more or less (I mean same High and Low attributes) but the superiority of Warrior Monks in the battlefield is certainly much better in comparison with our unit,because in STW does not have enough unit plurarism as MTW and therefore its hard to find solutions to deal with WM.But in MTW you have many.
Parepiptontos uparxoun arketoi proklitikoi geitones sto forum.
Rosacrux
10-23-2002, 17:32
Yup, a counter for every unit, that is the name of the game in MTW.
nai, to paratirisa kai ego... frondizo na tous ksefuskono otan tous synando, pandos...
i always thought that the musketeer was the third powerhouse in STW...
Prodigal
10-23-2002, 18:18
WMonks, have a close equivilent with Swiss Armoured Pikemen, they can deal with pretty much anything, produce them on a weapon upgrade province with that golden armour & they'll take out pretty much anything. They're not very fast though.
Boyars, byzant cav. & ghulam are all favorites the first two of these are archers & good at cav. attacks & all 3 move at a decent pace.
smap1024
10-23-2002, 21:47
i modded religious fanatics to be buildable for my games, requires chapter house and church. (but most of the other catholic factions are building them instead of crappy peasants so not too bad terms of balance)
anyway in a defence battle outnumbered pretty bad, that i was doing the normal drill, settin up my spears and with x-bows standing behind waiting for the enemy to come to me, my sole religious fanatic unit suddenly decided to change the on-coming enemy.
goodness, dun wanna see them get slaughtered as enemies have 3 pikesman units as well i decide to call a general advance and wade right into it.
nice!
a bit of a break from the usual stuff i guess http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by smap1024:
i modded religious fanatics to be buildable for my games, requires chapter house and church. (but most of the other catholic factions are building them instead of crappy peasants so not too bad terms of balance)
anyway in a defence battle outnumbered pretty bad, that i was doing the normal drill, settin up my spears and with x-bows standing behind waiting for the enemy to come to me, my sole religious fanatic unit suddenly decided to change the on-coming enemy.
goodness, dun wanna see them get slaughtered as enemies have 3 pikesman units as well i decide to call a general advance and wade right into it.
nice!
a bit of a break from the usual stuff i guess http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
Ahhh... That is indeed an upgrade to teh game. I hate seeing armies with 10 Peasants under an heir and his brother... Now they would at least get some power to kick back with. Not that they are good at all.
The only unit I have found to resemble any STW unit are the Gallowglasses, they are so close to the No-Dachi it is funny. They are equal in usage and they fight the same way.
All other units are the same unit and more, or less. Can't really find any other units that fit as well as the Gallowglasses.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Niccolomachiavelli
10-24-2002, 05:21
Boyars are quite impressive. Not so much as a missle unit but they do hold their own in a battle.
btw, I'm Greek too, but am loathe to try spelling anything coherent out in roman letters http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Lord Romulous
10-24-2002, 06:17
Quote Originally posted by smap1024:
i modded religious fanatics to be buildable for my games, requires chapter house and church. (but most of the other catholic factions are building them instead of crappy peasants so not too bad terms of balance)
anyway in a defence battle outnumbered pretty bad, that i was doing the normal drill, settin up my spears and with x-bows standing behind waiting for the enemy to come to me, my sole religious fanatic unit suddenly decided to change the on-coming enemy.
goodness, dun wanna see them get slaughtered as enemies have 3 pikesman units as well i decide to call a general advance and wade right into it.
nice!
a bit of a break from the usual stuff i guess http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
so what happened. did you win ?
or did the religious fanatics lead your army down the path to hell ?
In general, it seems climbing the tech tree in this game is a waste of time. A lot of the highest level units are completely cost ineffective (JHI, Gothic knights, Lancers). A good number of them are WORSE than mildly upgraded lower level units (halbardiers, pikemen, gothic sergs, chiv MAA). And some of them are just completely pointless (Nizari, Hashishin, Sipahis, Gendarmes).
Never played shogun, but if tech rushing was an attractive tactic in STW, then it was a completely different game.
People just don't get it. They want their cav to tear up superior numbers of cheaper foot troops. Not going to happen. If you can't learn by trial and error, then READ UP on military doctrine and start using cav like cav..
Del
Rosacrux
10-24-2002, 13:22
Del
It's not the people's fault, it's how chivalry and "mighty knights in shiny armour" have been portrayed in literature and the public consciusnes. I think they (people) got to do some serious reading before understanding that cavalry ain't tanks to just steamroll over infantry and that head-up cavalry assault against pike formations would be suicidal at best.
Niccolomachiavelli (nice nick name, patrioti)
But... why? Greeklish is fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by Rosacrux (edited 10-24-2002).]
As much as I massively enjoyed destroying enemy armies with Naginata Cavalry, I am very happy that there is no equivalent in this game.
Like people say, cavalry never would have much chance against loads of spears holding their ground.
MonkeyMan
10-24-2002, 18:42
if you exclusively build a type of knight you can have single unit type armies, so long as you use the correct foot/mounted ratio to suit and have some light cav in support against mounted skirmishers. Gothic foot knights will mince their way through everthing they can catch and they look good doing it too. Chiv. foot are a bit of a waste though when you could have had some billmen/halberdiers instead.
MonkeyMan
10-24-2002, 18:44
having said that nothing comes close to warrior monks they were fast powerful and for what they did cost effective.
Teutonic Knight
10-24-2002, 22:15
Ever seen ic Knights? Flanged Maces baby!
[This message has been edited by Teutonic Knight (edited 10-24-2002).]
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