Perspective

[Mikeus Caesar]

So, last night me and my friend are out drinking. Then, this old black guy, obviously just looking to chat with someone sits down at our table, so we shake hands and stuff and start talking. He was a pretty cool guy, and the topic eventually swung around to the subject of where we were from. He said he was from Somalia, and he asked if i knew where it was. I said yeah, i'd seen quite a bit of it on the news and stuff. He then says with a big grin on his face "it's horrible, man". He repeated this for about 5 or 6 times until he just broke down in front of me. I put my arms around him trying to comfort him, but you just can't. There's no way of comforting a person when you can't even begin to imagine the horrors they've seen, experienced. He then wiped his eyes, shook my hand and left.

You read all about the stuff that goes on in other countries, especially Africa, such as the disaster that is Darfur, and in relation to this, Somalia, but nothing can really ever prepare you for meeting someone who has experienced it all. It really brought tears to my eyes to see this poor guy.

And so i ask you Orgahs, have you ever met anyone like this who has given you quite a new perspective on things?

[CountArach]

Hungarian Jewish relatives who left Hungary during the rise of NAZIsm (Fortunately before any of the killing started). It did really strike me just how prevalent Anti-Semitism was in those days.

[Adrian II]

Zane Ibrahim from Cape Town. Great guy in S.A. public radio, created entire radio channels with his bare hands, first against the Apartheid regime, then against the ANC.

He and I were talking in Amsterdam on a rainy day on a terrace on Rembrandt Square, and he started imitating the behaviour expected from black waiters by whites in the old days of Apartheid. Man, that was a real eye-opener as to how deep racism gets under your skin. He told me how, when he was a young guy and worked as a waiter, the whites taught him how to 'be black'.

"I bring only five drinks at a time, Sir, or else I forget."

Zing! Pow! Insight!

Since that day Adrian II understands what racism is. Racism is not the result of a misunderstanding between people from different origins. Oh no. It's deliberate and intentional. It actively creates differences where there weren't any before.

[SwordsMaster]

Dude, I've lived the last month in Lagos, Nigeria. Someone should organise drives around the slums for perspective. Or a conversation with the average policeman. Or 3 hours in lagotian traffic on a bus. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures.

[Adrian II]

Dude, I've lived the last month in Lagos, Nigeria. Someone should organise drives around the slums for perspective. Or a conversation with the average policeman. Or 3 hours in lagotian traffic on a bus. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures.A month? I barely survived two weeks there. Please do post 'em if you can find 'em. Cars and vans with automatic guns sticking out the windows.. In the morning local police would collect last night's harvest of bodies and throw them on carts. Beer, prostitutes and Fela Kuti sounds everywhere. One hard-nosed, dangerous city.

P.S. What exactly was the new perspective it gave you?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yeah, I met this guy from the Vosges the other day. It was horrible, he had had a miserable life there and he fled to civilisation a few years ago and

Yes, I've met plenty fo people from war-torn, destitute or dictatorial places. It's a rough and violent world out there. My most important insight that I've gained is that, simply, it's a rough and violent world out there. Like, for real. And that democracy and social stability and moderation and economic sense are not boring luxuries that are nowhere near as kool as extremist parties or internet fascism or the latest leftist fad or whining about the deplorable state of western society in general.

[Odin]

Whats real sad is when someone you have met, say in a warzone has changed your perspective but due to duty you really cant commit to the change.

Years later you cant talk about it either because you've not only rethought out the perspective but your own warped sense of reality has hindered reasonable thought processes that include empathy for other peoples lot in life that was no fault of their own. Yet if all the cards were to be laid on the table you might actually weep for them.

Even sadder still you attempt to relate to something someone posts on a message board and you know that a candid reply would be met with either disbelief or a silence that would render yourself numb from gathering the courage to pull the expirence out of the depths of your psychosis.

So, yes I've met people from war torn places or extreme poverty that have changed my perspective, but it never interfered with the eloborate world that I created in my mind to help me deal with said meetings.

Yet as I read your story Mikeus Caesar I wonder if you would induldge me a moment. In the aftermath of the meeting, perspective change and subsequent thought process did you come back to your personal place in the world and changing it? Or did your considerations simply fall under the guise of remorse for the poor fellows story?

Personal curiousity, an indepth repsonse isnt required nor is there any pending judgements should you chose not to reply either.

Also, why is it I always seem to see these posts after a cocktail or two? Why cant we just go back to the good old fashion bickering and bile over politics?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.

Never was a more truthful phrase spoken. :bow:

[rotorgun]

Back in the 1980's I went on a little trip with the US Army to a place called Egypt. We flew into an Egyptian Airforce facility named Cairo West. There, in the course of events, I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with some of the average enlisted soldiers from one of their "crack" Airborne Brigades. As is wont for soldiers to do, we compared our salaries. At the time I was a Sergeant E-5 making something in the area of $1800.00 to $2000.00 dollars a month with benifits as well. I asked an Egyptian Sergeant what his salary was, and it was around $15.00 to $20.00 a month, with Private soldiers making around $5.00 a month! Needless to say I was shocked. I then asked them how many uniforms they were issued. They said two. I asked them if they could get them replaced if needed, and they said no, that the uniforms had to last for their entire enlistment of 3 years! I was again surprised, because we recieved at least four uniforms and was given a several hundreds of dollars clothing allowance annually to maintain and or replace needed items.

This was nothing compared to when I went to the city of Cairo. Looking at all the poverty in a city with so much wealth was astonishing. In Eygypt, 95% of the population are dirt poor. Of the remainder, perhaps 3% are middle class. This leaves the 2% left at the top of the heap with something like 90% of the wealth. This was an eye opener. I vowed that I would never complain about my military pay again, and I haven't for the most part ever done so since. I also was humbled that I had an opportunity to live in a place such as the United States, and am generally quick to tell people who I hear complaining about something minor to appreciate what they have. I wish that every person in our country would be able to experince something similar, so that they would truly understand what the third world is up against. I am much less materialistic in my life as well, and find that I can do without much if I need to. I just remember what I have seen in places like this, and it makes it easier.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Alright, I'd better tell about some of my experiences.

I was in Costa Rica last year, for around two weeks in March. San Jose on the first night was like nothing I'd ever seen before - there were some very grand buildings, like the National Theatre, and the Gran Hotel, whereas the Precolumbian gold museum was simply astonishing. I mean, we have that sort of thing in Germany, on reflection, but it was still refreshing and beautiful.

On the second night I was there, I went into the streets - the "shopping area." There were the usual stores, selling fashion items, football shirts, and so on. There was even a Wendy's. I went a little farther down the street. This was where I saw what Costa Rica was really like.

Here, there were t-shirts being sold in stores, more of the usual - only the stores weren't like the stores up the street. They still catered to tourists, but more backpackers and students I suppose. However, here on the street you see people selling lottery tickets, a blind/disabled couple busking, and gallo pinto and beef patties being sold from little vendor windows, all in a tight indoor space, a market really. It was poor. You could tell. Not outrageously poor, mind you, but poorer than the average European or American community. But there was something different here. There was a smile here, or a joke there, and even though I couldn't speak Spanish I understood, somehow, what was going on here.

These people were happy. They didn't seem bothered by poverty, or the work, or anything. It was one of the most moving things I'd ever seen. It was a sort of general behaviour. There are no other words to describe it, besides perhaps the two words that Ticos use.

I fell in love with that country and those two words.

:costarica: Pura Vida :costarica:

[Mikeus Caesar]

Yet as I read your story Mikeus Caesar I wonder if you would induldge me a moment. In the aftermath of the meeting, perspective change and subsequent thought process did you come back to your personal place in the world and changing it? Or did your considerations simply fall under the guise of remorse for the poor fellows story?


In all honesty, it came back to my personal place in the world. But i don't really know any further how to answer that question in words, all i know is that it has given me alot to think about.

[Incongruous]

Man you guys have been to some great places.

I can't say that a certain visit has changed my perspective because I was probably very young when it happened (holidays down here are expensive affairs). But I have had the pleasure to meet some very interesting people in NZ. The most important was probably an old Hungarian man who had known my Grandmother while she was in Hungary. I knew nothing about her past as she had never spoken about it, for good reason. Hearing about the years leading up to '56 and what she went through was harrowing. Especially when he told me how my Great Grandfather had been killed by communists, rather funny since he was the leader of the workers unions.

I suppose it allowed me to see how, when pushed to the limit, people can do horrible things. Perhaps this was simply an attempt to find an excuse for what happened in Hungary.

[Fragony]

Did voluntering as a ' buddy', give a refugee a good day thingie and show them the ropes on how to do it here, heard some pretty sick things. One of them had such refined manners and wore a suit he must have been a made man where he's from, didn't ask where.

[rory_20_uk]

Sooner or later everything comes into hospital: 6 month pregnant women who've been beaten up by their partners fell down the stairs, depressed Jews due to memories of fleeing Nazi Germany... the worst part must be that I'm pretty numb to it all now. It takes really inventive cruelty or the consequences of it to be remembered.

At the limit, most people will do most things. That's how atrocities / genocide happen.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

Sooner or later everything comes into hospital: 6 month pregnant women who've been beaten up by their partners fell down the stairs, depressed Jews due to memories of fleeing Nazi Germany... the worst part must be that I'm pretty numb to it all now. It takes really inventive cruelty or the consequences of it to be remembered.

At the limit, most people will do most things. That's how atrocities / genocide happen.

~:smoking:You sound like Louis-Ferdinand Céline writing about his medical career in Journey to the End of the Night. And I mean that as a compliment. :bow:

[SwordsMaster]

I have the pictures, but unfortunately the internet connection here is too crap to actually upload them...

I'll try again, but I can't promise anything.

[Adrian II]

I have the pictures, but unfortunately the internet connection here is too crap to actually upload them...

I'll try again, but I can't promise anything.Or else write it up.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I agree. Things can be terrible. Luckily, The closest I've ever gotten was to see people bathing in river sewage in Jakarta. They also had a guy in full uniform collecting garbage at McDonalds for no pay, just tips.

I've never seen a more violent type of poverty, for that I'm lucky.

This is why I believe in relief by force. I do like the way my government handles conflicts to a much greater extent than any other government has handled conflicts throughout history. I believe that all encompassing racism has died on a national level (of course isolated racism remains, sometimes to a stupid extent), so it allows for less biased and more compassionate occupations. If these places are undergoing bloodshed and insecurity regarding their safety and the lives of their families, why shouldn't the U.S. and European powers expend their money and energies to make to world safer for everyone. Very few people get to switch off a tyrannical and oppressive system of rule without bloodshed, and I believe that we should help make the bloodshed more manageable and of shorter duration. This is always my intent in suggesting warfare as a solution, because it solves so much if done creatively while it solves so little when done selfishly. We have the opportunity to weigh in on the outcome in favor of the disenfranchised.

There is a strange dichotomy. On the one hand we are expected to view these events and take a political response in some way, because we are all citizens of the world and brothers in our humanity. Yet, when my brother or neighbor was having their home invaded by cruel and unrighteous men - when would I stand back and simply comment on the atrocity? Immediately I would get a group of my most courageous friends and resolve the situation by overwhelming force if necessary. If we are all citizens of one world, then let the benevolent and brave give a voice and security to those without the luxury.

I think that the decent global powers have no greater role than as World Policemen. I also think this should be our unalterable goal while the world is still in the twilight of egalitarianism and judeo-christian/humanistic compassion. I think that the time for this is almost up with an indifference to the globally hostaged and a rise in powerful despotic and arbitrary governments.


I now leave you to open fire at my comments and my government. Obviously I will read all criticism.

I've been following this MDC-Zanupf lunacy and it has finally resolved itself in favor of tyranny.

[HoreTore]

Seeing beggars on the streets always screws my mind...

[Strike For The South]

I lifted weights with a man from Hati for a little while. The guy always had the biggest smile on his face and just always looked happy. I never saw him have a bad day.

[Don Corleone]

When I was 18, I traveled to a section of Appalachia (one of the poorest rural sections of the USA) to build houses. It was over 100F every day. I dug a ditch to install a sewer line, insulated under the floor in the crawlspace (fiberglass AND chickenwire, yay!) and stuff like that. On the 2nd to last day, the lady of the house, who was supposed to be helping with sweat equity, showed up to tour the house. And she lectured us on every single bent finish nail, misalignment, missed paint stroke, you name it. After an hour or so of lecturing us, she packed her kids up, got back in her car, and left.

Well, I was with about 14 other kids (coed :2thumbsup:) from my parish youth group. She wasn't 30 seconds up the road when we went on 'strike'. We threw our tools down, started yelling, called her every synonym for ungrateful we could think of. The pentacostal minister who was in charge of the job site (that was fun... appalachian pentacostal meets New England Irish/Italian Catholic kids) didn't say a word, he just let us rant ourselves out. When we were all done, he asked if we'd spent every moment of our lives feeling grateful. We agreed that no, we actually hadn't. Then he asked us how many of us had first hand knowledge of how bad it feels to be scourged, or to have nails hammered through your wrists, or crucified. We really felt sheepish now, and saw where he was going. Or at least we thought we did.

Then he asked if any of us knew what it was like to have a child die from a bacteria she got from a rat bite. We were horrified, and said of course not. He paused, got a little hoarse, then said "that lady does. This will be the first, last and only home she'll ever own, and the only one she'll be able to tell her children she was able to make safe for them".

You never know the whole story.

[Husar]

Never got around a lot so I've been spared from getting a real perspective, but I nevertheless got a bit of perspective through the media and maybe because my IQ is somewhere between 40 and 50 and not lower I was able to figure out that not everybody has it as comfortable as I do. Probably not the same as seeing it with your own eyes so go ahead and call me a rich kid that doesn't understand a thing.

Concerning your post Tuffy, the thing about creating a better life for other people, I think it's noble, even if you have to shoot a lot of bad guys in the process but I often wondered why so little seems to be done in that respect in africa until lately when I was happy to hear that europeans support democratic elections and peacekeeping there. Talk about the middle east and it's evil dictators all you want but people there are not starving by the thousands and I don't think they have as many children soldiers whosse families were brutally murdered and their villages burned down either, which makes me think we should really make a difference in Africa, the middle east is about to catch up with western values and democracy anyway or at least people there don't have it that bad, which is not to say they don't have any poverty there.

That's my perspective.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Never got around a lot so I've been spared from getting a real perspective, but I nevertheless got a bit of perspective through the media and maybe because my IQ is somewhere between 40 and 50 and not lower I was able to figure out that not everybody has it as comfortable as I do. Probably not the same as seeing it with your own eyes so go ahead and call me a rich kid that doesn't understand a thing.

Concerning your post Tuffy, the thing about creating a better life for other people, I think it's noble, even if you have to shoot a lot of bad guys in the process but I often wondered why so little seems to be done in that respect in africa until lately when I was happy to hear that europeans support democratic elections and peacekeeping there. Talk about the middle east and it's evil dictators all you want but people there are not starving by the thousands and I don't think they have as many children soldiers whosse families were brutally murdered and their villages burned down either, which makes me think we should really make a difference in Africa, the middle east is about to catch up with western values and democracy anyway or at least people there don't have it that bad, which is not to say they don't have any poverty there.

That's my perspective.

Africa needs to be dealt with. It is the leading international source of poverty, corruption, disease, and widespread violence. I'm sure that the African people will have interesting things to say if we get everyone and their mothers to stop stepping on their throats.

[Fragony]

To borrow something from AdrianII, stop teaching them how to be africans. China has done more good for africa then all the charity organisations combined.

[Husar]

To borrow something from AdrianII, stop teaching them how to be africans. China has done more good for africa then all the charity organisations combined.

Are you trying to say that all the raped women, children, the children soldiers and whoever else is oppressed, tortured, killed etc actually want it to be like this? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

Are you trying to say that all the raped women, children, the children soldiers and whoever else is oppressed, tortured, killed etc actually want it to be like this? :inquisitive:

What I am trying to say is that we should stop throwing them banana's. But on to perspectives.

[ICantSpellDawg]

What I am trying to say is that we should stop throwing them banana's. But on to perspectives.

I agree to an extent. China has no benevolent intent, but getting a large amount of people to work day in and day out, even if for peanuts, is better than having them sit in idleness. American charities, however decent hearted, have seemed to enable lethargy and idleness.

The old adage that "it is better to teach a man to fish than to give a man a fish" works exceptionally well here.

[HoreTore]

I agree to an extent. China has no benevolent intent, but getting a large amount of people to work day in and day out, even if for peanuts, is better than having them sit in idleness. American charities, however decent hearted, have seemed to enable lethargy and idleness.

The old adage that "it is better to teach a man to fish than to give a man a fish" works exceptionally well here.

Uhm....

You need to realize that "Africa" isn't one situation. A lot of different approaches are needed, from creating jobs, stimulating small businesses(like grameen phone and his cronies are doing) and emergency aid.

You seriously don't think that what a 10-year old kid dying of aids needs a job more than he needs medication, do you? :dizzy2:

There are a lot of orphans in africa, they need to go to school and get an education, not work in a factory from the age of 7. There are also a lot of sick people, they need medications, not a job. Then finally there are those dying of hunger, they need food, and they need it fast. After that's fixed, you can start talking about creating work.

[Odin]

Uhm....

You need to realize that "Africa" isn't one situation. A lot of different approaches are needed, from creating jobs, stimulating small businesses(like grameen phone and his cronies are doing) and emergency aid.

You seriously don't think that what a 10-year old kid dying of aids needs a job more than he needs medication, do you? :dizzy2:

There are a lot of orphans in africa, they need to go to school and get an education, not work in a factory from the age of 7. There are also a lot of sick people, they need medications, not a job. Then finally there are those dying of hunger, they need food, and they need it fast. After that's fixed, you can start talking about creating work.

Wonderful analysis HoreTore, so you going to pay for this broad approach? As much as i dislike seeing others suffer as an american I am about done with the international aid scene. We've done our bit and its led us to catastrophic foriegn policy decisions.

So here's hoping that 'perspective' reigns supreme and we allow someone else to take the lead.

So are you willing to pay more to do this HoreTore? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

There are a lot of orphans in africa, they need to go to school and get an education, not work in a factory from the age of 7. There are also a lot of sick people, they need medications, not a job. Then finally there are those dying of hunger, they need food, and they need it fast. After that's fixed, you can start talking about creating work.

It's kinda funny how you reason your way up starting from education, but what good is education if their is no place for that sort of talent. It's completily the other way around I think, develope the small things and the need to organise and manage will come eventually from natural talent, not a horse that can count. Just don't expect too much too soon.

edit; mods, bit of a hijack, maybe own thread?

[HoreTore]

An educated man will be better at whatever he does, and a LOT better suited for starting up something himself that creates jobs.

Besides, a child has no place in a factory whatsoever.

[SwordsMaster]

Uhm....

You need to realize that "Africa" isn't one situation. A lot of different approaches are needed, from creating jobs, stimulating small businesses(like grameen phone and his cronies are doing) and emergency aid.

You seriously don't think that what a 10-year old kid dying of aids needs a job more than he needs medication, do you? :dizzy2:

There are a lot of orphans in africa, they need to go to school and get an education, not work in a factory from the age of 7. There are also a lot of sick people, they need medications, not a job. Then finally there are those dying of hunger, they need food, and they need it fast. After that's fixed, you can start talking about creating work.

Economically it makes no sense to give them anything for free. Local commerce and industry is only going to be stimulated when there is demand, and demand is destroyed if they receive everything for free. Who's going to buy bread if they can get it free? Who's going to sell it if there are no buyers?

What they should do is give out contracts for lower corporate taxes in key industries to allow foreign investment. Cheap manpower and foreign investment should give them a skilled labour force in as little as 10 years.

Of course the reason this isn't happening is because the rich have too much to lose if it does. Allowing foreign competition means that the owners of local companies will have to compete, and that will slash their profits, which they are ready to pay bribes for.

Until there is a good work ethic, and people can work for a salary that means more than a one-off bribe, there is no point in talking about a good economy.

Here, in Nigeria, an average policeman makes 12,000 Naira a month. That is approximately 70€. Of course he'll take bribes.

[Fragony]

Besides, a child has no place in a factory whatsoever.

Apparently they do, I just try to avoid buying these goods it's my personal boycot.

[Redleg]

Back in the 1990's while serving in the Army I was loading ships for the return to the states in Saudi Arabia. One day after work, me and another officer were out shopping for presents for family and girlfriends, well the call for prayer happened while we were in the store, and we went to leave. However the store next to us a GI wasn't as quick as we were to leave. And the Saudi Religous police showed up and took the store owner out and beat him in front of all of us. This woke me up to the double dealing of the Saudi government and how it related to the American Government.

Then a few years later I was sitting on a bus in Korea going from one military camp to another on the local civilian buses. Always interesting to see how people react to americans. In general I found the Korean People friendly and polite toward us. however one day the Korean Police come onto the bus looking for North Korean inflitrators or symathisers (SP). The way they determined who to pull of the bus still shocks me to this day. It seems South Koreans at the time always looked down when the police approaced them. Anyone who didnt was pulled off the bus and given intergation (sometimes right on road in front of the bus.) Another interesting prespective was when one of our trucks busted the brick wall that seperated our compound from the South Korean Infantry Battalion that was our next door neighbor. Needless to say the beatings that the South Korean Sergeants placed upon their privates was not minimized a bit.

And then one day a retire American General, one of the men cited by South Korea for saving their nation during the active phase of the Korean War, arrived in Soeul. I have never seen a single individual given such respect by a nation. And I still remember the smiling grandmother that always shook our hands and said thankyou. Interesting country South Korea.

Now then there was the discussion with an Iraqi Armor officer that my platoon captured during Desert Storm and the information about how his soldiers were treated by him and his nation.

Makes me understand why a free society - even with all its problems- is always better then anyother form.