Sweden pulls a George Bush

[KarlXII]

Unfortunately do not have an article (read about it on Wiki), but here we go.


FRA-law (FRA-lagen) is the common name for an anti-terrorist legislative package in Sweden, including a new law put forward by the government as well as several modifications to existing laws, formally called proposition 2006/07:63 – En anpassad försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet. (proposition 2006/07:63 – An intelligence agency accommodation). The law, at its heart, gives the Swedish National Defence Radio Establishment (known by its Swedish acronym "FRA") the right to use SIGINT on all cable traffic that crosses Swedish borders (which embodies much phone-traffic and a large part of the internet traffic).

The law was passed by the Swedish parliament on June 18, 2008 by a vote of 143 to 138, with one delegate abstaining and 67 delegates not present.

Beginning in 2009, the law will give the Swedish National Defence Radio Establishment the right to monitor traffic at all internet exchange points for traffic which enters or leaves Sweden in search for terrorist activity. Telephone companies in Finland have expressed their worry about the referendum, as it will make it illegal for them to deliver international telephone conversations via the Swedish networks.Peter Fleischer, Google's Global Privacy Counsel, wrote about this:

“ By introducing these new measures, the Swedish government is following the examples set by governments ranging from China and Saudi Arabia to the US government’s widely criticised eavesdropping programme. Do Swedish citizens really want their country to have the most aggressive government surveillance laws in Europe?”

Finnish Sonera is currently (as of June 5, 2008) moving their e-mail servers out of Sweden to avoid letting FRA wiretap the Finnish population. Juha-Pekka Weckström, Senior Vice President of TeliaSonera Broadband Services Finland said "We decided to move Sonera's e-mail services back to Finland in order to protect the privacy of our Finnish customers. After the migration, e-mails sent from one Finnish Sonnera user to another will not cross Finland's borders at any stage.". Also Swedish Telia, the partner of Sonera, has transferred Swedish customers from Finnish to Swedish servers, to prevent national e-mail from crossing the border.

News reports from Sweden's state broadcast network and other sources report that FRA have in fact been conducting potentially illegal eavesdropping on Swedish citizens for a decade. According to the Swedish National Defence Radio Establishment's General Director, Ingvar Åkesson, they destroy the data collected after eighteen months, but they confirm that they have, in fact, been collecting information not just on foreigners but also on Swedes as the presence of Swedish search terms used on the data would indicate.



Any Swedes here that would like to comment?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Found an article. ~:)

http://www.thelocal.se/12334/20080610/

[Ironside]

Highly unpopular, most of the population, the media and most goverment agencies are against it.

But of course it became some high profile prestigious pet-project. :furious3:

TBH, bringing this one up during election time would probably cost the current goverment the election.

AFAIK it's currently investigated if it's unconstitutional.

[CountArach]

So much for Sweden's reputation as progressive.

[InsaneApache]

Why are all the western deomcratic nations throwing their freedoms away?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Why are all the western deomcratic nations throwing their freedoms away?

Rhetorical question, I'm sure, but I have some time. :beam:

Democracy requires an engaged and informed people, and liberty even more so. Governments however, by their very nature tend toward institutional solutions that are frustrated - or scrutinised - by knowledge. The balances between the two directions of pull make for good government.

People have been seduced away from engagement by the luxury of their lives in the last fifty years. It's all to easy to ignore politics and go to the mall. Politicians have sold them the idea that they can't make a difference anyway - and in most cases homogenised and eviscerated their education systems to turn out unquestioning consumers.

Now, add the politicians' wet dream - the War on Terrorism. An indistinct, ill-understood, endless war against an indefinable enemy that changes depending on the government's need. The people can be subtly terrified - ostensibly what the "terrorists" are supposed to be doing but so much easier when one has an easily sensationalised media. Institutional solutions are the only ones that "work" because individuals don't even know what the shadows are, let alone how to deal with them.

The genius of this is that the usual guardians of individual liberty, the conservatives, have also got themselves hung up on the law and order line. It used to be that this was based on a profound traditionalism (conservatism) about things like constitutions and laws, but they are easily pushed over into the hang 'em all camp because they are often not good at understanding other people's cultures and traditions.

Therefore, even if properly engaged, the constituency government should most fear when they attempt to subvert liberties are happily dancing on Liberty's grave. Patriotism is corrupted into nationalism. Because there is no defined enemy, and no defined victory, this process feeds on itself. Suddenly, natural suspicion of government motives, so vehement in most other areas of policy, becomes unconditional support - and any questioning becomes unpatriotic, even treasonous.

The left on the other hand, has become more impotent in the modern world than at any other time. If they do make objections, it is very easy for government to characterise them as irrelevant or worse, pro-terrorist (whatever that means). The people as a whole couldn't care less about abstract concepts such as human rights because a) 'tis obvious bad people don't deserve them; b) they don't know any bad people; c) did you see the new shoe shop?

Governments therefore, can do what they believe they do best: run people's lives for them. To do this, they need to know what's going on and to ensure that citizens are doing what they have been told to do. They invent new and more intrusive ways to do this and no-one bats an eyelid.

And why should they? Eden was a paradise in which every second of human existence was regulated and surveilled. Only when Eve tasted the sweetness of freedom were they cast out.

[InsaneApache]

'Twas indeed rha rheit a question posed more to garner effect than for an answer. Again BQ I find myself in complete agreement with you in your analysis of the current situation.

Nurse! nurse! medication time...:laugh4:

[JAG]

So much for Sweden's reputation as progressive.


Unfortunately they have the Conservative party in over there at the moment - and they are doing their best to mess it up.

[Fragony]

The crypto-communism that is progressive politics :thumbsdown:

[CountArach]

The crypto-communism that is progressive politics :thumbsdown:
Read JAG's post above yours.

And Banquo, an excellent post indeed :bow:

[Fragony]

Everybody who has doubts about Che is a conservative to JAG, he means the christian centre party :yes:

[CountArach]

Everybody who has doubts about Che is a conservative to JAG, he means the christian centre party :yes:
Incorrect, the majority of the Alliance for Sweden is the Moderate Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Party). According to Wikipedia:

The party states that its ideology is a mix of liberalism and conservatism. (The term liberalism is in Sweden not used in the way that it is currently used in the United States to denote "progressives", but is closer to the traditional meaning of free-market libertarianism or classical liberalism. Many outside of Sweden may consider the party to have more of a Libertarian viewpoint.)

The party emphasizes free markets, privatisation, personal freedom and reduction of the public-sector growth rate, while still supporting most of the social benefits introduced since the 1930s. The party emphasises issues such as actions against crime, lower taxes, a strong defence and quality in the education system. The party also supports Sweden's membership of the European Union. They campaigned for changing currency to the euro in the 2003 referendum. Since Fredrik Reinfeldt became party leader, the party has slowly started to move further toward the center.
So there you have it, they are conservative. It does say they have moved towards the centre, but they are on the conservative wing of Swedish politics. The bolded things are traditionally conservative ideologies that they hold.

[Fragony]

GAH :surrender:

[HoreTore]

Well.....

What else can you get when you have a head of state who's praising the leadership of Burma for their good rule? :laugh4:


EDIT: Oh, and someone find a commentary by Guillou on this law.

[Viking]

Well.....

What else can you get when you have a head of state who's praising the leadership of Burma for their good rule? :laugh4:


EDIT: Oh, and someone find a commentary by Guillou on this law.


Are you talking about the king, and Brunei? :inquisitive:

[CountArach]

Are you talking about the king, and Brunei? :inquisitive:
Couldn't find anything with Burma, so yes it is Brunei (http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=13385891).

[HoreTore]

Hmmm... Maybe it was Brunei... Honestly can't remember :clown:

[Viking]

Couldn't find anything with Burma, so yes it is Brunei (http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=13385891).

There it is. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he had praised the military junta of Burma too, though. :laugh4:

Sorry for going off topic. :clown:

[KukriKhan]

That settles it: I'm writing in Banquo's Ghost on my ballot for President of the United States this November.

Unconstitutional, you say? So is undeclared war, so there.

[Kagemusha]

This affair is very bad move from our neighbours. We should not turn our countries in the direction of police states where we are always monitored,because being afraid of fundamentalist lunatics.

[TB666]

TBH, bringing this one up during election time would probably cost the current goverment the election.

If this rules stays I can imagine it being the death of this goverment come election time.
It is not wise to go against public opinion if you are a democracy afterall.
I hope this will get shot down.
Our right to privacy is clearly stated in our constitution.
If it stays then there are various services that will make you anonymous on the net.
Might go for that.

[KarlXII]

This IS unconstitutional. The government has no reason to check for terrorists, seeing as bombs have not gone off in Stockholm, and I expect they never will. For the country that emphasizes liberties and conservation, I hope this will be thrown out by next week :inquisitive:

[TB666]

This IS unconstitutional.
Yes it is.
Now they just need to realise it.
But on the other hand they brought down Sony and the other media companies when they tried to invade our privacy.
Let's hope they will do the right thing again.

[HoreTore]

This IS unconstitutional. The government has no reason to check for terrorists, seeing as bombs have not gone off in Stockholm, and I expect they never will. For the country that emphasizes liberties and conservation, I hope this will be thrown out by next week :inquisitive:

Yeah.... About that constitution thingy... We're not that big on it up here... We change it all the time too :smash:

[KarlXII]

Yeah.... About that constitution thingy... We're not that big on it up here... We change it all the time too :smash:

Hehe, still. The Swedish Government has no reason to suspect the people of terrorism, when was the last time Al-Quaeda hit Stockholm?

[HoreTore]

Hehe, still. The Swedish Government has no reason to suspect the people of terrorism, when was the last time Al-Quaeda hit Stockholm?

They're a member of the EU, therefore they must do as the idiots say.

But no, of course there is no reason to fear anything... Besides, Sweden is a neutral country, isn't it?

[The Celtic Viking]

"Let us tap every phone call you make, read every SMS you write and every email you send even though your innocense isn't in doubt, or some terrorist will come and blow you to pieces". Isn't that terrorism itself?

But hey! This is what you get for voting right. :shame: (Yes, this was added for you, Fragony. Unlike your's, my claim, though not serious, is at least correct in the way that the majority actually did vote right. I didn't just blame it on the right wing because it would be convenient for me as a socialist to do so...)

[TB666]

But hey! This is what you get for voting right. :shame:
If only people did vote for that.
I'm really starting to dislike our goverment.
Hate when they try to pass things like this, things that they don't really have a clearance for.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What a coincidence - I hate my government for passing things that they really don't have the constitutional right to do as well. Only it won't matter if I vote for a different party. A European trend, perhaps? :whip:

[The Celtic Viking]

If only people did vote for that.
I'm really starting to dislike our goverment.
Hate when they try to pass things like this, things that they don't really have a clearance for.

If people didn't vote right, then how come the Alliance won? They're all right wing, you know.

Oh, and aye, I hate our government too. :shame:

[TB666]

If people didn't vote right, then how come the Alliance won? They're all right wing, you know.

I know we voted for them(I myself is guilty of that).
But we did not vote for this law that's what I'm trying to say.
Not once during the election this issue come up(probably because it didn't exist back then).
When we vote we vote for their program, what they plan to do.
That is what they got clearance to do really.
This was not on the list therefore they should wait until either allow a vote on the issue or wait until the next election.

Guess I'm old fashion.:shame:

[The Celtic Viking]

I know we voted for them(I myself is guilty of that).
But we did not vote for this law that's what I'm trying to say.
Not once during the election this issue come up(probably because it didn't exist back then).
When we vote we vote for their program, what they plan to do.
That is what they got clearance to do really.
This was not on the list therefore they should wait until either allow a vote on the issue or wait until the next election.

Guess I'm old fashion.:shame:

Ah, yes, this I agree with. As I already said in the same post, that wasn't a serious claim from my part. I said it to show Fragony that two can play the same game - that is, I could blame this on having a right wing party in power just because it would be convenient of me as a socialist to do so, just like he tried to blame this on "crypto-communism" just because it's convenient for him to do that.

I'm quite certain that the majority of those voting right are against this crap just as fervently as I am.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I see from several posts that this is an unpopular move.

So other than complaining about it on an internet forum, what are you citizens going to do?

[HoreTore]

Well, it's Sweden, so.... Start another war with Denmark, perhaps?

[Ironside]

I see from several posts that this is an unpopular move.

So other than complaining about it on an internet forum, what are you citizens going to do?

Well, I would love to legally frame the leading minds behind this law, by sending suspicious mails to them (aka mails that FRA are supposed to notice as potential terrorist activity), to demonstrate the stupidness of the law.

You can also give them an evil paradox by sending information that they aren't supposed to be able to red but can anyway (one really brilliant aspect of the law, they read everything and then after that they decide that the stuff thats supposed to be secret gets deleted), by for example "plan" a terrorist attack through a journalist anonymous source.

A damned if you do react on the threat (illegal and unconstitutional to red journalists anonymous sources) and damned if you don't (a simple bypass of a very intrusive law).

Sadly I'm too much of a silent discontender to bother with the time required to do that stuff, so I'll probably vote for dissenters to this law at the next election and sign up some protest list if I see one.

[Fragony]

I said it to show Fragony that two can play the same game - that is, I could blame this on having a right wing party in power just because it would be convenient of me as a socialist to do so, just like he tried to blame this on "crypto-communism" just because it's convenient for him to do that.

Awwwww you lefties got your pound of flesh don't be cruel. Have to be read up better before trolling :beam:

[The Celtic Viking]

Awwwww you lefties got your pound of flesh don't be cruel. Have to be read up better before trolling :beam:

Your tactic of throwing out baseless accusations doesn't work with me. Sorry.


Well, it's Sweden, so.... Start another war with Denmark, perhaps?

Aye, that sounds like a good plan. Let's do that!

In more seriousness though, we've already started protesting it. If it still goes through, we'll see what we'll do then. What would you do yourself?

[Fragony]

Your tactic of throwing out baseless accusations doesn't work with me. Sorry.

It just did. Best way to silence trolls is crushing their windpipes.

+1

Thanks

[TB666]

So other than complaining about it on an internet forum, what are you citizens going to do?
Well I for one intented to rally the mob, arm them, march on Stockholm where we will defeat and overthrow the loyalist oppressors and create the Empire of Skåne where I will rule as Emperor. :ave::medievalcheers:

Seriously tho, protests will no doubt be done and no effect.
The real effect is to vote these guys out next election.

[Ironside]

Interesting, I've seen rumours about this earlier, but now as it has reached the main newspapers, I would say it's somewhat official.

The purpose of this law is to get foreign intel (mainly Russian), as Sweden is a considerble internet hub in Europe and particullary Russia. This intel will then be traded for other intel making FRA doing what they did during the cold war.

The surveillience on Swedes are mainly a side effect and a smokescreen.

Still opposed it though, as it doesn't require much to make its main purpose surveillience on Swedes.

Swedish link (http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=802742)
No english links that I can find as of yet, although the rumour is seen on more han one forum.

[CountArach]

The purpose of this law is to get foreign intel (mainly Russian), as Sweden is a considerble internet hub in Europe and particullary Russia. This intel will then be traded for other intel making FRA doing what they did during the cold war.
...
Still opposed it though, as it doesn't require much to make its main purpose surveillience on Swedes.
Does that really make it any better?

[Ironside]

Does that really make it any better?

Not really, but that has more to do with the actual need of intelligence services in the first place.