Let's talk about battle formations

[QuintusSertorius]

I have to admit having played Romans for so long, my only alternative to their checkerboard is a single, long line. Which isn't too subtle and has no reserves, and is also a little anachronistic.

So what formations are there that work, without being exploits of the AI?

How might you deploy this army:
4 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Theurophoroi
1 x Galatian Tindanotae
1 x Karian Uazali

2 x Peltastai
2 x Kretan Archers
2 x Sphendenotai

2 x Hetairoi (Family members)
1 x Asian Light Cavalry
1 x Thracian Prodromoi
1 x Thracian Light Cavalry

Against the likes of the Seleukids or Ptolemies?

[Ibrahim]

I have to admit having played Romans for so long, my only alternative to their checkerboard is a single, long line. Which isn't too subtle and has no reserves, and is also a little anachronistic.

So what formations are there that work, without being exploits of the AI?

How might you deploy this army:
4 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Theurophoroi
1 x Galatian Tindanotae
1 x Karian Uazali

2 x Peltastai
2 x Kretan Archers
2 x Sphendenotai

2 x Hetairoi (Family members)
1 x Asian Light Cavalry
1 x Thracian Prodromoi
1 x Thracian Light Cavalry

Against the likes of the Seleukids or Ptolemies?

use the hetairoi on one flank (w/thrakians), l.cav on other. put the kelthellenikoi in th vcenter of the infantry line, then put thureophoroi on their flanks. put the tindonetae on the far right (or with the cavalry), and the uazali on the far left

then, send the peltasts and sphens ahead and pelt the enemy (keep them close to your main line), and put the kretikoi in the rear (they shoot at select targets in the line and wind them up). use the sphens on armor, the pelts on the weak stuff. put the pelts in the rear when they have no ammo left. they will be your reserve.
I try to move the men in a U shape, with the open part facing the enemy-make contact with a hail of javelins (they are kelto hellenikoi) and charge: thureos and uazalai outflank and hit the enemy on their right-rear, the other flanck the left-rear. cavalry mops up enemy (hopefully mauled by sphens), then goup up and hit the main line in the rear= mass panic. use the L.Cav to cover your left, and then to persue the enemy after they run.

[QuintusSertorius]

Sounds a lot like the tactics I already use, though I usually have the peltasts on the wings of the line outside the theurophoroi taking part in the battle line.


Just to illustrate, this was my usual formation:

----Sph------------------Sph

Pel-Theur-CH-CH-CH-CH-Theur-Pel

Gal--------KA-----KA---------Kar

H.Cav------------------------H.Cav
L.Cav------------------------L.Cav
L.Cav

I'll give that a try, it's probably a more realistic use of peltastai than as medium infantry (even if they're very good at it).

[Aaldaemon]

I play using different unit sizes than you do, and as such battle dynamics are different (especially maneuvering)... but what about this formation for fun:

https://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm270/Aaldaemon/wierdformation1.jpg

It can also be more in depth than in this quick screen.
EDIT: Gah the way I wrote stuff looks messed up when post is shown but I guess you get the idea...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------A L Cav
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thrac L Cav
------------------------------------------------Thure---------H Cav H Cav Prod
-------------------------------------------Celt H-----Peltastai
-------------------------------------Celt H
-------------------------------Celt H----------spend--kretans
-------------------------Celt H------------------------kretans
-------------------Thure------------------------------spend
Peltastai / Gal Tinda
Uazali


Now I'm not a big fan of this army composition... but the general idea is concentrate all cavalry on one flank - I would use a devastating mass charge on that flank, but i guess in this case there should be a bit of javelin softening in the back of the enemy before the charge...

Formation should make the tactics obvious - central engagement with delayed engagement on the left, followed by envelopment from your left wing infantry... mass cavalry charge on the right while your missle troops can be used to fire at best possible targets - from softening enemy cavalry to firing at the side / back of infantry engaged on your left flank... you can also move your cavalry to support the left envelopment as well... tons of options if you're willing to maneuver. :yes:

Now this is a proper tactic for a proper heir of Alexandros (not the best I admit but fun :))

[QuintusSertorius]

Is that Medium unit size? There's so few men!

[Aaldaemon]

Yes, I always use that unit size - 60men to phalanx, 40for most infantry, 26or so for cavalry... I used to play RTW multiplayer lots when it came out so I got used to this unit size... the way battles play on this unit size is quite different from battles with larger numbers... and I much prefer this size - the obvious downside is less cinematic battles though. :no:

[General Appo]

That´s not medium, that must be small. Phalanx has 100 or 120 on medium, or so I believe.

[Aaldaemon]

And in honor of ancient multiplayer gaming... back when Palamedes would spout mind bending battle tactics, or silent-pariya would spam 10 archer and 10 cav... a ye olde multiplayer setup for your army:

https://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm270/Aaldaemon/wfo2.jpg

obviously about to change completely 30 seconds after game start hehehe... but oh well the memories. :yes:

[Aaldaemon]

That´s not medium, that must be small. Phalanx has 100 or 120 on medium, or so I believe.

No, phalanx has 30 men on small. 60 men is normal size.

[V.T. Marvin]

With the same army composition I would use probably the same formation as you did - I mean Quintus - , with the exception of putting peltasts in front of your front-line (spread rather thin to cover the whole frontage) and use them the same way as you would normally use velites - to pepper advancing enemy with javelins, then retreat behind the main line, then reform and use for reserve/flanking/pursuit-of-routers.

But it is precisely your selection of units I have a slight problem though.
Overall, your army composition seems to me as well optimized to be the most efficient.:2thumbsup:
But I would (for the hell of it:beam:) aim for more "historically-plausible" composition. I mean, first, celtic and hellenic units should probably fight in two distinct contingents, rather than being mixed together (something like the Roman legion and socii ala). Second, for a hellenic faction the army seems to me little bit too cavalry-heavy. Third, I miss those lousy low-tier militia troops, who usually formed a considerable part of almost any army in history. Therefore, what I would do as my Pergamene army line-up would be something like that:

.......---Celtic Slingers---...----Pelt--- ----Pelt---.....................
.........................................................................................
.......---CSp-- ---HKH---....--HH-- --CH-- --CH--......................
.......................................-----Akontistai-----......---KWb---...
-GalTind-...-CeltGen-..................................--GrGen--.............
.........................................................................................
--CeltCav--...............................................--GrCav--. ...........

******************
Pelt - Peltastai
CSp - Celtic Spearmen (as a lower class than Hoplitai Kelto-Hellenikoi)
HKH - Hoplitai Kelto-Hellenikoi
HH - Hoplitai Haploi (as a lower class than Classical Hoplites)
CH - Classical Hoplites
GalTind - Gallatian "Wildmen" - optional, just for the sight of them:beam: (could be replaced by Celtic Swordsmen)
CeltGen - Celtic General - a client ruler leading his men as an ally of the King of Pergamon
CeltCav - Celtic Cavalry - either light or heavy. Light should suffice for hunting routers
GrGen - Greek General
GrCav - Greek Cavalry - preferably light just for hunting routers
KWb - one or two units of Uazali, or Karian Warband, as allied flanking force, great to cut down phalanxes from behind
******************
Rationale: To make things more challenging = more fun. Smaller stack, weaker forces, two distinct contingents. Less cavalry.
Not as effective as your line-up, but that should not mind. BTW - I am indebted to you for your Guide to becoming a true Roman and I have used your prescribed army composition both in RTR and in EB and never regretted that. And it was not the most effective mix of roman units either. But it was both good enough, and historical and FUN!:yes: So I would suggest to invent something similar for other factions (like your brand new Pergamon) too! Just do not be lazy!:whip::laugh4:

[Aaldaemon]

Overall, your army composition seems to me as well optimized to be the most efficient.:2thumbsup:



:dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2:
Not by a long shot imho. His is a fun army composition, in no way the most efficient.

I like your army btw, great fun composition that. :2thumbsup: Just without the wildmen... I have nothing against male nakedness, but I just don't like using them... rather use some Anatolian hillmen or the like for fun. :embarassed: (fun>efficiency hehe)

[V.T. Marvin]

Just without the wildmen... I have nothing against male nakedness, but I just don't like using them... rather use some Anatolian hillmen or the like for fun. :embarassed: (fun>efficiency hehe)
I would avoid them too, that is why I have suggested using galatian swordsmen instead (to keep the gallic flavour of that contingent).

Anyway, thanks for your appreciation!:egypt:

OMG!!! 200th post! :medievalcheers:

[QuintusSertorius]

One of the things I was trying to do was reduce (yes reduce!) the number of Greek troops in the army. Reports of Pergamene battles (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1953022&postcount=43) I've seen suggest they used a lot of regional/mercenary troops, and weren't much into phalanxes or hoplites (so no Classical or Levy Hoplites - they're my garrison men). Keltohellenikoi are my Gallic compromise as "Galatian" men with Greek training.

I don't have Galatia, so I can't recruit Gaeroas or Kluddolon (well I can in Tylis, but that's a long way away). Can't recruit Vollotrix at all. There are some mercenary options, but I'm trying to keep that component down because of the difficulty in replacing them. Quite a few of my regional choices are doubly available as mercs (Keltohellenikoi, Thureophoroi, Kretan Archers, Thrakian Prodromoi and Thrakian Hippeis etc). I think it is about time I got some Curepos in there.

In another note, I tried out (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1953952&postcount=59) something broadly like the composition above, and it worked reasonably well.

Maybe, to take your point VT Martin, about smaller, more challenging armies, I could do something like this:

3 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Thureophoroi
1 x Karian warband
1 x Galatian Tindanotae

1 x Sphendenotai/Iaosatae
1 x Kretan archer
1 x Peltastai

2 x FM
1 x Asiatic Hippakontistai
1 x Thracian Hippeis/Curepos

That's a 14-unit stack, rather than a 19-unit one, and less cavalry.

[V.T. Marvin]

Sorry Quintus, I did not realized that you do not own Gallatia yet and do not know much about Attalid Kingdom either. I have got your point. And I do very much like your new army composition scheme! Hope it will prove worth on the battlefield too.Good luck!:2thumbsup:

[Timoleon]

Maybe, to take your point VT Martin, about smaller, more challenging armies, I could do something like this:

3 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Thureophoroi
1 x Karian warband
1 x Galatian Tindanotae

1 x Sphendenotai/Iaosatae
1 x Kretan archer
1 x Peltastai

2 x FM
1 x Asiatic Hippakontistai
1 x Thracian Hippeis/Curepos

That's a 14-unit stack, rather than a 19-unit one, and less cavalry.

I'm really looking forward to see how this "reduced" stack will do against a heavy 20-unit Seleucid Army. I guess there will be an AAR in your other thread. Good luck.

[QuintusSertorius]

Taking on board some comments from before, I'm thinking of making a minor change to composition - changing one of the Keltohellenikoi for Thorakitai, then making the right side of my army (from the Thorakitai in the centre) Hellenes and the left side non-Hellenes. The younger FM gets to be the guy in charge of the allied forces.

[QuintusSertorius]

Taking on board some comments from before, I'm thinking of making a minor change to composition - changing one of the Keltohellenikoi for Thorakitai, then making the right side of my army (from the Thorakitai in the centre) Hellenes and the left side non-Hellenes. The younger FM gets to be the guy in charge of the allied forces.

Been doing some more thinking on this, and I don't think the Thorakitai fit. They're supposed to be a progression on the Thureophoroi, and thus a replacement for them later on. I wonder if it's also a bit too mobile- and precusor-heavy. Considering a mix thus:

3 x Classical Hoplites
1 x Thureophoroi
1 x Keltohellenikoi
1 x Karian Warband/Tindanotae/Gallic Swordsmen
1 x Peltastai (deployed as line troops)

1 x Sphendenotai/Iaosatae
1 x Kretan archer
1 x Thracian Peltastai

2 x FM
1 x Asiatic Hippakontistai
1 x Thracian Hippeis/Curepos

A 14-unit stack with a mix. Hoplites in the centre, Thureophoroi and Peltastai on the right, Keltohellenikoi and another on the left. Slingers and Thracian Peltasts out front, archers behind, FMs and cavalry on the two wings.

Considering whether I should reduce the number of hoplites to two for a shorter frontage and smaller stack.

[rotten]

Seriously, don't use Tindanotae, or Gaestae for that matter, unless you want to butcher the AI's army without any problems. If you want naked shock infantry uirodusios will do enough damage.

[QuintusSertorius]

It was actually more just having some Gallic infantry, so I've switched them for Kluddolon who won't unbalance things. Appropriately Galatian still.

Army now incorporates some phalangites, to roleplay the evolution of the army with greater territory and access to larger populations.

Cavalry (4 units):
2 x Family Members
1 x Gallic Light Cavalry/Thracian Medium Cavalry
1 x Eastern Light Cavalry/Thracian Light Cavalry

Line Infantry (7 units):
2 x Medium Phalanx/Mercenary Medium Phalanx
2 x Classical Hoplites
1 x Thureophoroi
1 x Celto-Hellenic Hoplites
1 x Kluddolon/Karian Warband

Light Infantry (3 units):
1 x Mercenary Kretan Archer
1 x Gallic Slingers
1 x Peltastai/Thracian Peltastai

With the flex if I wanted a bigger army in the either/or of Galatians/Karians and Peltastai/Thracian Peltastai becoming an and.

Deployment thus:

--GalSl
-------------------ClaH----Phal----Phal---ClaH----
GK/KW-----KelH-------------KrA---------------Thur----TPel/Pel
FM---------------------------------------------------FM
GalCav----------------------------------------------ELCav/TLCav

[FriendlyFire]

Quite a similar composition to the Koinon Hellenon armies I'm using. This is after the March of Time, and I'm fighting in Asia Minor against Pontos and Arche Seleukeia:

Main line (8 units):
4 x Greek Phalangites
2 x Ekdromoi Hoplitai (flank guards)
1 x Thracian Peltastai (flanking infantry)
1 x FM (in reserve)

Missile troops (2 units):
1 x Cretan archer (also flanking infantry)
1 x Rhodian slinger

Cavalry (2 units):
1 x heavy cavalry (Thessalians or Thracian Prodmoroi)
1 x skirmisher cavalry (Mercenary Gallic or Thracian Light)

I still have to recruit the peltastai and cavalry as mercs because I haven't built up the relevant MICs yet. Other than that everything is native, and with Krete pumping out archers I'm happy to throw them into combat. The cavalry typically operates in combination with the Ekdromoi to deal with any flank threats, then (ideally) pins the enemy FM between them, and finally does a rear charge to seal the battle.

I was going to say that the Rhodian slingers were the least-required unit, but in this morning's battle against Pontos they butchered some Galatian wildmen who were trying to get behind my phalanx, so maybe I'll keep them in a while longer :smiley2:

[QuintusSertorius]

Slingers are invaluable because they decimate unarmoured skirmishers, and can even whittle down and weaken armoured ones.

[AspisPhalanx90]

hmmm...i tend to use the Theban deployment, especially against phalanx armies with little cavalry. the left flank is usually very heavy, sturdy troops, with the line staggering as it moves right. the heavy left makes it a cavalry-like arm, and enemy phalanxes have to either engage each unit, or risk opening a flank...makes quick work if used properly and even better with a cavalry wing or two