The dam Pope

[DirtyJoe]

How is this? I am playing Spain, first of all i fought of the Almohads to Morroca, and held Morroca, Built a solid trade network worth $4K florins, an was quite content to build up the bank, and build internal infrasture>

THEN, the Argonise attacked me?? and took a province, I was not happy, I launched a counter attakc to regain my own provice, only to be ex-commitcated for my actions.

Then the pope has the gaul to ask me to support him with a crusade, I told him where to go.

[maroule]

isn't it fantastic... very true to history...

put yourself in the place of the Toulouse Dukes, good christians, who sudenly had a crusade called against them for heresy, with the whole of France waging war on them, and of course for purely political reasons...

[Stefan the Berserker]

You can take out the pope through taking out Setactivefraction:FN_Papal! Only fair!

[Kroney]

humph, the sicilians attacked my trade routes and took out a caravel, when i responded i got excommed. so i assassinated him. served him right too.

[The Yogi]

Second the anti-pope feeling, and in real life I'm actually a good catholic! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The French invade my HRE, my forces retreat to the castle and are relieved by forces so strong the French turn tail - I'm warned by the Pope for agression against my fellow Christians!

So assuming the French have been warned as well, I pull back my main armies from the border, thinking to lure them into having themselves excommunicated. Sure enough, they attack, I go into the castle. But no, no excommunion for the Frogs!

Of course, when I tried to relieve my castles, I was excommunicated, and I had never even set foot in french lands!

This made me so angry I stopped playing right there. You should NOT be warned or excommunicated for relieving castles in you own areas! That is not agression, that is defence!

This needs to be fixed!



[This message has been edited by The Yogi (edited 10-24-2002).]

[The Yogi]

Ah, and on a related note, has anyone ever seen the Pope come to their aid, ie warning or excommunicating other countries for attacking the player nation? I haven't - ever.

Hey, I just made "Patron" - cool! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by The Yogi (edited 10-24-2002).]

[maroule]

Quote Originally posted by The Yogi:
Ah, and on a related note, has anyone ever seen the Pope come to their aid, ie warning or excommunicating other countries for attacking the player nation? I haven't - ever.

Hey, I just made "Patron" - cool! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by The Yogi (edited 10-24-2002).][/QUOTE]

yep, as French or Spanish, you get a very supportive pope, with money (albeit symbolic, at 1000 florins). I saw the pope breaks his alliances with my enemies quite often. I don't remember outright excom against them, though.

[The Yogi]

Quote Originally posted by maroule:
isn't it fantastic... very true to history...

put yourself in the place of the Toulouse Dukes, good christians, who sudenly had a crusade called against them for heresy, with the whole of France waging war on them, and of course for purely political reasons...[/QUOTE]

Well, they WERE Cathars, or at least sympatized with the Cathars. Back then, that was big deal.

[Rnold]

Cathars were heretics! BIG time. Lots of inquisitions etc. in the Languedoc area
Btw... does the papacy move to Avignon in 1309 in the game? I never made it so far, so i wouldnt know...

[starkhorn]

Who and what were the Cathars ?

------------------
"Let your manhood be seen by the push of your pike!" Owen Roe O'Neill at the Battle of Benburb 1646

[Rnold]

Cathars were a people in the southern part of France who followed a pure form of christianity. The were persecuted by other christians (inquisitors) and they built big castles to defend themselves. In fact those castles still remain, to no avail though because the Cathars don't

[MonkeyMan]

Cathar Doctrine

Duality
The fight between two equals Good and Evil
As set down in St.John':s Gospel
Good being the kingdom of the good lord
Evil being the material and time passing reality of the visible physical world.


Evil had imprisoned good inside men's bodies
Man enters the kingdom of God through his soul.
To achieve this, he had to "ascèse" detaching from the material world
The "ascèse" prepared him for baptism,
Salvation was found through "consolament"
The joining of soul and spirit
The Cathars only sacrement.
The holy book was the new testament
The prayer was the lords prayer.

They called each other Christians. Bons hommes. Good Men
Friends of Gods.
They were 40,000 Croyants (believers) with a 1000 priests (parfaits).

The croyants lived normal lives,
Except honoring the Parfaits, taking part in their ceremonies,
And sharing their ritual meal.
They could become parfaits after a three year apprenticeship.

The parfaits community was divided into houses run by an elder or prioress.
Professional and religious life was taught to encompass regular lifestyle.
The male and female priests shared their time between preaching and doing regular work.
The church imposed the priests to live on their labors.
The fruits of the parfaits labor and the croyants donation made the wealth of the Cathar Church.

The parfaits dressed in black.
Moved about, and lived in pairs, extolling the doctrines of their church, refusing secular laws.
The Cathar church had no rights over the population.
They did not believe in feudal heirachy.
They preached in the langue d'Oc.
Promoting feminism and equality for the serfs, the poor.
They were vegetarians.
Their way of life was accepted by the aristocracy, and became established in town and country.
Rome felt their lifestyle as a threat to both income and way of living
The Pope Innocent the Third in 1209 launched a crusade against them
He called in Simon de Montford to slaughter, and extinguish their power, their religion.

[Rnold]

One entry found for Cathar.


Main Entry: Cath·ar
Pronunciation: 'ka-"thär
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural Cath·a·ri /'ka-th&-"rI, -"rE/; or Cathars
Etymology: Late Latin cathari (plural), from Late Greek katharoi, from Greek, plural of katharos pure
Date: 1637
: a member of one of various ascetic and dualistic Christian sects especially of the later Middle Ages teaching that matter is evil and professing faith in an angelic Christ who did not really undergo human birth or death
- Cath·a·rism /'ka-th&-"ri-z&m/ noun
- Cath·a·rist /-rist/ or Cath·a·ris·tic /"ka-th&-'ris-tik/ adjective
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

[Kroney]

the cathars weren't a bad lot really, they certainly didn't deserve to have their lips and ears cut off, poor buggers.

[Rnold]

What a coincidence. Van Gogh lived in the land where Cathars had lived a few centuries earlier too. I guess that is where he got his inspiration from...

[deejayvee]

Quote Well, they WERE Cathars, or at least sympatized with the Cathars. Back then, that was big deal.[/QUOTE]
Raymound VI Duke of Toulouse wasn't a Cathar, he just didn't do enough to stop the Cathars, in the Pope's eyes.

[Hakonarson]

Some non-Cathar lords fought against the French for basically political reasons, as did Pedro II, King of Aragon (I think) - who died in battle with crusaders.

The Count of Toulouse was asked to join a crusade at eh start but refused - saying he saw no reason to go to war with his own people, and was excommunicated for this. A Papal legate was assasinated the day after meeting the Count, the Count was blamed and a Crusade was declared against him.

It started as a crusade, but rapidly degenerated into an excuse for expanding lands and power.

Check out http://www.deremilitari.org/bouvines.htm

This has everythign - bishops preaching to try to convert the heretics, assasinations, crusades, Emmisaries (Papal Legate), Rebel armies, foreign intervention - great stuff unless you were there at the time!!

[deejayvee]

And the leader of the crusade was Simon de Montfort.

[starkhorn]

Wow. That's something you don't learn about in school history books about the crusades.

Thanks for the link, good reading but quite distressing.

------------------
"Let your manhood be seen by the push of your pike!" Owen Roe O'Neill at the Battle of Benburb 1646

[maroule]

thanks all for expanding of my initial comment

Cathars are close to my heart (I was born in the south of France) and I'm delighted to see the knowledge you guys have of the issue.

Most of the comments are exact, just a precision for the 'big castles' : I think you refer to the castles around Perpignan/toulouse, like 'the finger of god' (Peyrepertuse) and other equally impressive fortifications : they were important place of refuge for cathars but what you see of them today are mainly the remains of latter works (border fortification against Spain/Aragon). They're stunning anyway, any history buff will have a wonderful time visiting them.

Congrats MonkeyMan of the doctrine. From it syou see that the parfait were indeed 'heretics' but like the bogomiles in Bulgaria announced what later became the reform (aspiration for more purity, a cleargy integrated to the population, open to women, etc). If protestants hadn't been as strong as they were, they would have been equally slaughtered and forgotten.

One aspect of the 'croisade des albigeois' was indeed prosaic : give new lands to the second born sons of the aristocracy (only the first inherited).

The whole story is a heart breaker. We French have been very good at inflicting pain on ourselves throughout history. Like the rest of humankind, it seems.

If you read French, the site cathare.org is very rich.

[This message has been edited by maroule (edited 10-25-2002).]

[Rnold]

yeah i so happened to read about Cathars in my Lonely Planet guide during my most recent holiday in (the south of) france. Too bad i didnt get the chance to see the sights in the perpignan area... (but believe me, we saw quite a lot!)