View Full Version : Regarding phoenicians and greeks
Olimpian
06-25-2008, 09:35
How did the greeks see the phoenicians?Did the greeks under Karthaginian rule cooperate, or did they try to become independent at every oportunity?Did they consider the phoenicians barbarians?
On the other hand, how did the Karthaginians treat the greeks?Did they try to subjugate them?Did they respect their culture?(I know they copied some military aspects from them)
Timoleon
06-25-2008, 10:33
Did they consider the phoenicians barbarians?
Classical Greeks considered everyone who didn't speak Greek a barbarian!
The mainland Greeks considered Phoenicians as their merchant rivals. According to a myth, the city of Thebes was founded by Phoenicians, so maybe Thebans had a more positive view of them.
The Greeks who lived in Sicily where fighting Carthage for centuries and the Carthaginians where rather cruel conquerors (of course in ancient world there where few "kind" conquerors). In 406 BC they sacked the city of Akragas (modern Agrigento), 16000 residents were slaughtered and 5000 sold as slaves.
There where certain Greek tyrants (such as Iketes of Leontinoi) that cooperated with them and used their power to prevail against their Greek enemies and many Greek mercenaries who served under the Carthaginians, but in most cases Sicilian Greeks and Carthaginians where bitter enemies.
Classical Greeks considered everyone who didn't speak Greek a barbarian!
The mainland Greeks considered Phoenicians as their merchant rivals. According to a myth, the city of Thebes was founded by Phoenicians, so maybe Thebans had a more positive view of them.
The Greeks who lived in Sicily where fighting Carthage for centuries and the Carthaginians where rather cruel conquerors (of course in ancient world there where few "kind" conquerors). In 406 BC they sacked the city of Akragas (modern Agrigento), 16000 residents were slaughtered and 5000 sold as slaves.
There where certain Greek tyrants (such as Iketes of Leontinoi) that cooperated with them and used their power to prevail against their Greek enemies and many Greek mercenaries who served under the Carthaginians, but in most cases Sicilian Greeks and Carthaginians where bitter enemies.
First of all barbarian just meant foreigner in Greek. Classical Greeks called Persia and barbarians but admired their level of civilisation and their massive buildings like Egyptians who they also called barbarians. The word got negative connotations after Greeks reached their peak and their culture truly surpassed their neighbors.
Imo, they regarded Phoenicians as their rivals at sea and the Carthies as the 'western Persians' people that tried to destroy hellenism in the West. They feared them less though since they had defeated them many times.
PS: Thebes and other cities were most likely Phoenician colonies during the very archaic years, only to be conquered by Greeks and settled. Thebes was one of them according to this theory.
Timoleon
06-25-2008, 13:55
PS: Thebes and other cities were most likely Phoenician colonies during the very archaic years, only to be conquered by Greeks and settled. Thebes was one of them according to this theory.
No this isn't true. Before the Archaic period, there was the Mycenaean civilization in the area of Greece. The Mycenaeans where Greeks and all the heroes of Homer are from this age. Before them, there was the Minoan civilization, centered in Crete. There was no such thing as Phoenician colonization of Greece.
No this isn't true. Before the Archaic period, there was the Mycenaean civilization in the area of Greece. The Mycenaeans where Greeks and all the heroes of Homer are from this age. Before them, there was the Minoan civilization, centered in Crete. There was no such thing as Phoenician colonization of Greece.
Of course there were Myceneans. I said I have read a theory that Phoenicians (and Egyptians) colonised some islands and shores of western Greece in really, really ancient times causing all those myths of heroes coming from those areas. (Pelopas, Kadmos etc)
Of course thats possible, but then human life developed in Africa and spread from there (according to the most widely accepted scientific theory today), so humans probably did come from the area now known as Egypt to get to Greece eventually, but that doesnt make them 'Egyptians' as such...just the hunter gatherer nomads, who settled in Greece after the Ice Age
No this isn't true. Before the Archaic period, there was the Mycenaean civilization in the area of Greece. The Mycenaeans where Greeks and all the heroes of Homer are from this age. Before them, there was the Minoan civilization, centered in Crete. There was no such thing as Phoenician colonization of Greece.
There are also theories about Phoenician/Minoan colonization of the Iberian Peninsula that date as far as into the Calcolithic. It was in that era that monumentalized settlements began appearing in regions which were rich in mineral deposits, leading many historians to think that even by that age, the Phoenicians/Minoans were already establishing colonies in the Peninsula. So it wouldn't be that farfetched to believe that the Phoenicians settled in some Greek lands.
Of course thats possible, but then human life developed in Africa and spread from there (according to the most widely accepted scientific theory today), so humans probably did come from the area now known as Egypt to get to Greece eventually, but that doesnt make them 'Egyptians' as such...just the hunter gatherer nomads, who settled in Greece after the Ice Age
Hunter and gatherer nomads appearing so long ago wouldn't leave impressions in Greek myths.
We have thse mythical figures:
a)Cadmos the Phoenician. He founded Thebes and brought the alphabet in Greece.
b)Pelops a Phrygian or Lydian that came to Greece and won a crown. The Peloponnese took its name from him
c)Danaos, brother of Aegyptus and son of Belus a mythical Egyptian king. He fled Egypt and went to Argos winning his crown.
And others I forget. These show some memories of rulers from the east.
Hunter and gatherer nomads appearing so long ago wouldn't leave impressions in Greek myths.
We have thse mythical figures:
a)Cadmos the Phoenician. He founded Thebes and brought the alphabet in Greece.
b)Pelops a Phrygian or Lydian that came to Greece and won a crown. The Peloponnese took its name from him
c)Danaos, brother of Aegyptus and son of Belus a mythical Egyptian king. He fled Egypt and went to Argos winning his crown.
And others I forget. These show some memories of rulers from the east.
They also show that archaic/helladic peoples in the region weren't repelled by the idea of recognising/claiming descent from eastern folks. Perhaps there was less of an "us vs them" or superiority complex in the Helladic mindset?
I suspect that the real xenophobia comes after periods of Greek dominance and confidence: eg the Athenian resentment of Macedon after their brief empire fell, or increasing Macedonian/Hellenic contempt for Persia after Plataea/Xenephon/Alexander.
The Carthaginians bloodied the Greeks noses for them many a time, severely restricting them from the western Med (with Etruscan help c500 BCE IIRC) and denying them complete control of Sicily. Did the Karthis seek to colonise Sicvily, or were they trying to clear the field of commercial rivals and leave a light colonial rule?
I suspect the Hellenes respected them as hard opponents and commercial rivals. However there was a "Hellenic club" and its members were more likely to cooperate together against outsiders.
I imagine the Greeks never had contempt for the Karthis like they came to have for Persia, perhaps because they never conquered them.
The Carthaginians bloodied the Greeks noses for them many a time, severely restricting them from the western Med (with Etruscan help c500 BCE IIRC) and denying them complete control of Sicily. Did the Karthis seek to colonise Sicvily, or were they trying to clear the field of commercial rivals and leave a light colonial rule?
Well they did have colonies in the Western part. Imo, they fought Greeks for the same reasons they later fought Romans. Control of Sicily and western Meditarennean trade
b)Pelops a Phrygian or Lydian that came to Greece and won a crown. The Peloponnese took its name from him
Wasn't he the grandson of Tantalos?
Wasn't he the grandson of Tantalos?
or son? if he was the fellow who won his crown in a chariot race.
Yeah he won in the chariot race...and he was son of Tantalus
Cambyses
06-26-2008, 15:14
Well, they were rivals and often enemies.
Dont forget aeneas supposedly sheltered with Dido in Carthage after the fall of Troy. ie even in such ancient times Phoenicians were allied to the enemies of Greece. Then of course the Persians used the Phoenician navy quite extensively during their empire. Again these often fought directly against the Greeks, espeically the Athenians. If I remember right various Athenian excursions to Egypt (supporting revolts against the Persians) were defeated by navies containing Phoenician ships. And dont forget Alexander's very bloody conquest of Tyre and Sidon.
Greeks set a lot of store by this kind of ancient history. Im sure the Phoenicians did likewise...
Also, the commerical rivalry cant be underestimated. In many parts of the world it would have been a familiar sight for greek and phoenician traders competing for the same goods.
Well, they were rivals and often enemies.
Dont forget aeneas supposedly sheltered with Dido in Carthage after the fall of Troy. ie even in such ancient times Phoenicians were allied to the enemies of Greece. Then of course the Persians used the Phoenician navy quite extensively during their empire. Again these often fought directly against the Greeks, espeically the Athenians. If I remember right various Athenian excursions to Egypt (supporting revolts against the Persians) were defeated by navies containing Phoenician ships. And dont forget Alexander's very bloody conquest of Tyre and Sidon.
Greeks set a lot of store by this kind of ancient history. Im sure the Phoenicians did likewise...
Also, the commerical rivalry cant be underestimated. In many parts of the world it would have been a familiar sight for greek and phoenician traders competing for the same goods.
In my view the whole Greek-Phoenician conflict was like this.
The student (Greeks after Dorian invasions) manages to reach the teacher and they fight for the first place until the student finally surpasses and destroys the teacher. Greeks won that centuries old conflict with Alexander and the Phoenicians disappeared from the major scene, leaving only their Carthaginian relatives, that didn't do much until the Romans arrived.
keravnos
06-26-2008, 18:41
The Carthaginians didn't do much until Romans arrived?
You are obviously wrong here. In 400 BCE Carthagenians overturned and destroyed almost all the Greek colonies on Sicily but for Syracuse. It took a lot of effort by the Syracusans AND the invention of the catapult to push the Carthagenians back.
On the westernmost greeks front, the state of Massalia, a different sort of war was being waged, between Carthage and Massalia with the "borders" being agreed upon as the Iber river.
The Carthaginians didn't do much until Romans arrived?
You are obviously wrong here. In 400 BCE Carthagenians overturned and destroyed almost all the Greek colonies on Sicily but for Syracuse. It took a lot of effort by the Syracusans AND the invention of the catapult to push the Carthagenians back.
On the westernmost greeks front, the state of Massalia, a different sort of war was being waged, between Carthage and Massalia with the "borders" being agreed upon as the Iber river.
I meant didn't do much from Alexander's time and afterwards. In the last war Agathocles almost took Carthage.
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