Ok now im annoyed

[Swoosh So]

The game is great, Ill quite happily wait for the patch but SHIPS! this is very annoying, I mean half the time i can launch 5 attacks a turn and sometimes none take place! A complete waste of the players time, Also it would be nice to set an option for a ship to automatically fight any ship that enters a sea area, Sorry not nice !!essential!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif, And while im griping why can 1 small ship stop a whole fleet with regards to trading?? The whole shippying thing needs to be looked at again! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I like doing this > !!

Swoooooosh

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-24-2002).]

[Rosacrux]

...addicted to them smilies, ain't we?

But I agree on your points. Nevertheless, I don't think they'll adress this on patch #1 or in #2 (if there is one), but we can lobby them to take a good, close look at it for the expansion pack.

Along with sorted lists of generals, armies, provinces etc., more diplomacy options and other serious issues.

[ToranagaSama]

I don't know whattt you guys are doing, but I just wiped out all of Elmos ships. He had a string going from Scily to the North Sea. Got em all!

Did you drop 5 separate ships on 1? Or, was that 1 ship per enemy ship? If so, its really hard to corner someone when the room has no walls! Obviously, its not in your enemy's interest to have you sink his ships. So why would he fight if he doesn't have to? Did your ships have any stars? Try stacking them 3 and 2. Good to have 2 different types of ships in a stack too.

How many stars did the enemy ship have?

[Swoosh So]

TSama when the enemy has 10+ ships in your sea lanes and keeps producing more it take ages to destroy them all, i think that all ships at war with each other should fight the moment they set foot in the same sea province, Just my thoughts its far too time consuming to do it year after year, and to have no fights at the end of it is just a whack in the face! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-24-2002).]

[Prodigal]

Boats, my personal bugbear. Ok combat is one issue, but what about the storm that destroy's one ship, (of course it'll be one of yours), you have only one boat in every sea & have to spend a mind numbing amount of time shuffling everything up. How about an "auto sea expansion" button, or a "fill the gaping hole in my trade route" button, personally that would see me a lot happier.

Btw Swoosh, get faster boats & you'll bring em to a watery grave (nearly) everytime.

[A.Saturnus]

It`s still strange that a always fleeing ship can blockade a trade route! Blockade should only work if you have the same number or more ships staying in the same region. As it is now a single ship can bring a whole campaign of my empire in problems because I can`t send any reinforcements over see and loose much money.

------------------
In the name of electricity: CHARGE!!!

[Fearless]

Hey Swoosh So Wouldn't it be a lot more interesting if a blockade fails due to the fact the opposing army has more ships in the sea lane and vice versa? This I feel would put a lot more interest in ship building and sea warfare.
This quote came from my Topic "Blockades"

[Swoosh So]

Yes fearless i totally agree http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Fearless]

I just hope this small problem has been addressed in the patch.............OH! let it be!!!

[EuroLord]

Hi all,

I agree 100%. This needs to be looked at.

Some good suggestions there.

EuroLord

[Odyssey of War]

I believe that the manual says something to the effect that it is easier to destroy ships by having more than one group of ships hunting it. Also it helps to keep same speed ships together in one group. If your group of ships has one fast ship and three fast ones, it will only travel at the slowest ones speed and if the ship you are chasing is faster, it will be very unlikely you will catch it. Try having 3 groups of 3 ships, one of them a fast group, to destroy enemy ships. Seems to work pretty well for me. Also once their ships are destroyed, keep at least 2 ships right off their coastal provinces to take out any ships they happen to build. Having ships in the deeper areas of water also helps to keep supply lines going in most cases (for some reason the AI doesnt build many deep water ships).

[Rnold]

think about this:
a firegalley can stop barques, because a firegalley is a better (war)ship. but a barque blocking a firegalley? sounds silly.

the firegalley would blow the barque out of the water. i think when you want to stop a superior ships trade route, you should at least be forced to fight that ship.

[Swoosh So]

1) Campaign map stability improved. This includes issues addressed for specific cases.
2) Savegame reliability increased greatly.
3) Windows 2000 support fixed. Occasional instability was previously noticed.
4) Artillery is now working when cycled as reinforcements.
6) Finish game results processing improved.
7) The header text no longer overlaps the text in the 'could not uncover secret vice message' when attempting to uncover a secret vice of a general with a spy.
8) Crusades now pathfinding correctly.
9) The brother of a king now gets a "son matures" event generated for him if he doesn't come of age before the succession (of his older brother).
10) Fleets escaping from a sea battle do so at their own speed.
11) Fleet AI has been tweaked to increase number of trade routes.
12) Removed the ability to build more than one of certain unique buildings in your provinces. Was possible to build, for instance, 2 Grand Mosques at the same time.
13) Tweaked Crusade AI.
14) Multiple famines in the same region no longer occur.
15) Siege time of a castle is now longer.
16) "Loyalty traffic light" is now always up to date.
17) Mode to mode hang bug - caused by attempting tutorial after starting campaign game is fixed.
18) Mode to mode hang bug - caused by attempting campaign after starting tutorial is fixed.
19) Fixed replays not working properly when bringing on reinforcements in battles.
20) Fixed right-clicking on a ship to bring up info parchment and occasionally producing a blank parchment.
21) Re-enabled log files.
22) If a fight drags on for a long time, then the factors start to get increased until one or other of the combatants dies.
23) The AI should is more careful with its generals and kings in combat.
24) The AI plays more dynamically with its cavalry. It'll often break off from combat against infantry, and either charge back, or attack at another point.
25) Improved replay stability.
26) The Trade income penalty now has an effect when one of the Vices and Virtues a general may have is Venal. This gives a -20% penalty to both Trade income and Agricultural income.
27) On the third year round in the campaign tutorial, the missing red button on the information window is now added.
28) Transition between early and high, high and late periods: if the player has any units (such as the king/princes/royal knights) being retrained/upgraded when the time period changes, the units will no longer be lost.
29) All the listed vices and virtues will now affect the Generals immediately, not randomly.
30) Game Options tab on the Mini Map (if they turn "Show Computer Moves" off) bug fixed.
31) When "Show computer moves" is on (and by pressing End Turn) the computer moves will now be shown.
32) When reinforcements are called during a 3D battle, the new units are now able to use the Group function to place them into a group with other reinforced units.
33) All non-intended factions (including muslim factions) can no longer build swiss pikemen.
34) After installing the game, if the user attempts to launch the game in 16 colors a message will appear stating that the game needs to be in 256 colors or better to run properly, the game will not output an illegal operation.
35) The Vice/Virtue "True Zealot" - that was listed as giving the owner +30% Zeal in whichever province he is in - now changes the Zeal in his home province (where he is governor) when the general in question is elsewhere.
36) The Vice/Virtue "Very nervous" now properly gives a +1 bonus to acumen when this is assigned.
37) The Vice/Virtue "Master of numbers" gives a +3 bonus to acumen correctly.
38) The Vice/Virtue "Fanatic" gives a +40% bonus to the zeal of governed provinces correctly.
39) When playing a catholic faction full campaign, the player is now unable to build multiple cathedrals and gain the excess income from each cathedral.
40) Upon winning a Historical Campaign Battle if you select the first option, Replay Battle, and then quit from that battle, your progress is no longer lost.
41) If the player has the widescreen option on, they can now see the tooltips.
42) Remaining unit(s) can no longer be grouped by itself/themselves.
43) Glory goals: You can now see exactly how many points each faction has in total - previously you could only see the height of the bars (which isn't precise enough for you to be sure) or go to each faction in turn and count up the red dots for each goal.
44) Playing a High period Russian campaign, the player starts with an armourer's guild in two provinces and the units granted to the player all have silver shields. This now functions correctly.
45) In a Late or High period campaign with the Danish, the player can now build/train the correct ships.
46) The leaders' portraits will now not be able show the same picture when a new leader takes the throne or the same as any other faction at that time.
47) The Golden Horde Emerge panel now says "...None are safe from this new threat. A number of other rebellions in progress have declared their allegiance to this faction."
48) Inquisitors trying your mercenaries for heresy now say mercenaries or your faction name instead of rebels.
49) If you have a general that, due to vices, has a negative valour on the battlefield, the negative number representation will now be shown correctly.
50) Famine messages no longer shown more than once.
51) AI will now pick a balanced force of their best units as the initial 16
52) AI can withdraw beaten up units so that a fresh reinforcement can come on.
53) All the player's artillery pieces are chosen in the initial 16.
54) Buildings now correctly give valour upgrades.
55) Rebellions no longer produce troops that require technology that the faction in question does not possess. If the player prefers the old style rebels this can be turned off with the command switch -old_rebels.
56) Some changes to unit balancing.

Nope just the fleet speeds, So 1 fast ship say the fastest in the game could disrupt the nations trade that has the largest fleet in the world, So 1 ship can bring a nation to its knees (not likely im afraid) I love the idea of shipping lanes but this is not right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder if it is just a bug have you ever seen a message saying the ship got away or your ship escaped confrontation?

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-24-2002).]

[TomThumbKOP]

Must be because all the merchant vessel captains are spineless wussies. The only way I can make the rules as they stand make any logical sense(and even this is a stretch mind you) is if the fact that there exists a ship that could attack defenseless merchants means that no merchant will leave port. As for a barque blockading a firegalley, it wouldn't have to beat the firegalley, just avoid it long enough to attack some wallowing merchantmen. Naval warfare isn't about sinking warships, it's about sinking merchants.



[This message has been edited by TomThumbKOP (edited 10-24-2002).]

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Rnold:
think about this:
a firegalley can stop barques, because a firegalley is a better (war)ship. but a barque blocking a firegalley? sounds silly.

the firegalley would blow the barque out of the water. i think when you want to stop a superior ships trade route, you should at least be forced to fight that ship.[/QUOTE]

Yesssssssssssss!!!

This is the BEST suggestions I've read re ships and trade!

CA this s/b incorporated ASAP! Makes absolute sense and adds to the strategy of the game.

----------

One thing about a single ship interrupting a trade route:

You guys have to realize that MTW "attempts" to model reality as best it can. In reality ONE ship CAN interrupt a trade route.

History read at your own risk.

Only WW examples come to mind. "Sink The Bismark!!" A single ship (and its support ships) become the total focus of the English Navy, because that single ship was capable of interrupting the supply line from North America. It took a good many ships, the (unbelievable) lose of Britain's Flagship (forget name) AND some serious LUCK, to sink the Bismark.

Submarine "Wolf Packs", are a somewhat similar example, at the beginning of both WW, they stiffled the supply routes quite effectively, and if it were not for a combination of geography, and tech dev, like aircraft and radar along with their good use, the Wolf Packs would have totally successful. [The fact that german aircraft did not have land bases within a good defense range was HUGE, a good german surface navy would have been helpful too.]

History lesson over!

As you all have experienced, it is VERY hard to corner a ship that is not interested in fighting. This is the way it was, until Aircraft!

So, if an enemy warship is bent on sinking trade ships, it can do so. Usually the warship is faster, has "range" weapons, AND has a VERY good idea where the Trade Ships will be. While the trade ship is slower and has NO weapons and must sail know sea lanes.

Its different warship to warship. The attacking ship must close within range of its weapons in order to inflict damage. This is EXTREMELY hard to do if the opposing ship is not so inclined. If the attacking ship is slows, its near impossible; if the the ships are equal in speed, its slightly less impossible and the Captain must be a good chess player AND he has to guard against being sunk himself. Sea warfare is much more about "seamanship" than about guns!

Also, the attacking ship must know WHERE the enemy ship is located. A warshp can plant itself ANYWHERE along a know "trade" sea lane and simply wait for a trade ship(s) to come along. The defending ship has NO idea where along that trade sea lane to look.

The Devs attempt to model the above. They've done an EXCELLENT job of it; BUT the problem lies with incorporating this within the "game". Specifically, with the "sea trade" aspect. Sea Trade is TOTALLY abstract, while Sea Warfare is, in relation, NOT abstract (the relationship is the key). The problem is there's a good non-abstract model interacting with an under-developed abstract model; and there's a problem.

Trade needs to be more 'fully' developed AND made less abstract!

This cam be dealt with in the Add-On. In the meantime Rnold's solution s/b "patched" immediately!!!



[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-24-2002).]

[Maelstrom]

I think the situation as modelled is pretty realistic, and I am not convinced any major changes are necessary - though a tweak ot two might help.

The ability to blocade trade routes is pitting warships (however weak) against cargo vessels - no contest. Whereas to try and trap a warship that doesn't want to stand and fight is extremely difficult.

Think about it - the best analogies I can point to are the resistance movements in WW2, Special Forces today, or even terrorists. All weak units that would have no chance in a stand up fight, but achieve their aims by using hit and run tactics on viulnerable targets.

A single war ship should find it extremely difficult to protect an entire sea area. Eliminating them should require a conserted effort from a number of units.

However, maybe ships should cheaper and quicker to build in order to better reflect this, and maybe the effectiveness of a blockade should depend on the ratio of friendly to enemy ships in a sea area.

I suspect this sort of tampering might create more issues than it resolves though, so on the whole I would leave well alone....

[Fearless]

Okay I see your point but it would have been best to have the choice of building warships or merchant ships. Just a little tweaking to improve the naval side. I don't want MTW to get too heavily involved in this side it's just something I feel could be improved upon. Maybe someone out there will eventually bring out a mod!

[Rnold]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Swoosh So]

Hmm no 1 ship couldent bring a trade route to a standstill unless it was a submarine http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif It may inflict losses on the tonnage transferred but wqouldent stop all trade

[sapphoo]

Quote Originally posted by Rnold:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]

you nihilist...

a well zulle hoe gaot ut

[Fearless]

Hey SWooooooooooooooooooooosh I'm with you. What we all want is the naval part of the game a little bit more entertaining. I'm not interested in whats right or wrong, historically, lets just get this naval part sorted!!