Your opinion on Kosovo

[KarlXII]

A poll/debate to see what our fellow Orgahs think of Kosovo.

[Tribesman]

What is Kosovo ?
Its an ever changing place in an ever changing world .

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

I'm going to vote Gah!

It's my understanding that it is not an independent nation, but at the same time I thought it was pretty much autonomous. I understand that an area can be autnomous but still dependent, but to be honest I'm completely confused by the whole situation.

[RabidGibbon]

There are never any easy answers in the Balkans.

Whilst I know nothing about the ethnic populations (or rather which people would claim to be a part of which ethnicity) in the Balkan region, I feel recent events in this region show how empheral the concept of the modern nation state is, in a similar manner to many African nations which collapse when those suspicously straight lines on the map turn out to be the invention of their former colonial overlord.

Are the current Balkan problems a result of the collapse of the Ottaman or even Byzantine Empires? How much historical precedent can any nation claim? A Serbia existed before the US of A. But the territory that makes up Kosovo has been possesed by an awful lot of nations over an awful lot of time.

At the current time (As I have heard, from perhaps fallible sources) an Albanian migrant population has acheived the majority in Kosovo and voted for independence, and is it not a right of peoples to determine their own future, even if they are immigrants? Or should an immigrant always be a guest? If I was being a Troll (Which it appears I am doing) the current albanian population of Kosovo has as much right to declare independence as the english population of the thirteen colonies had in 1776. After all various Indian tribes already had time honoured claims on that stretch of land.

At the end of the day, in order to present my opinion on Kosovo, I've tried to illustrate the problems that show themselves in any question of independence. When you start talking about who owned any piece of land at any time, should it be up to an international tribunal, in which case a welsh man might turn up with a UN offical and tell me that me that 1000 years ago this was his tribal hunting ground, so it's his house now, and I owe him 17 deer and half a plow as backdated rent, according to the doomsday book? Or should it be up to whoever at the current moment has enough armoured vehicles and AK-47 weilding thugs to blast the other fellow off what he claims is the sacred territory of his ancestors?

I suppose the only other option is that we all just live side by side and get along with each other. But thats just plain ridiculous, isn't it?

[PanzerJaeger]

No clue at this point.

I do know that these nations are truly doing themselves a disservice by splitting up into smaller and smaller territories instead of learning to get along. Yugoslavia would have been far more viable, or, dare I say, Austria-Hungary.

So while each ethnic group's fight for, and eventual gain of, independence may be a noble endeavor; what they are left with are nations so small that they have no bargaining power on the world stage, so war-torn that they have little economic capacity, and so tumultuous that foreign investors look elsewhere. :shrug:

This is why I don't mind the current problems with the realignment of Eastern Germany. In the long run, the people and the territory gained far outweigh the current issues having to be dealt with in bringing the East on line.

[Conradus]

Considering that they've declared their independence and are recognised by quite a lot of countries, I'd say they're a independent nation. If they should be, that's another question entirely.

[PBI]

It's recognized by my government, that's good enough for me. Although of course the real question is, will it be recognized by the Eurovision Song Contest?

[Viking]

No clue at this point.

I do know that these nations are truly doing themselves a disservice by splitting up into smaller and smaller territories instead of learning to get along. Yugoslavia would have been far more viable, or, dare I say, Austria-Hungary.

So while each ethnic group's fight for, and eventual gain of, independence may be a noble endeavor; what they are left with are nations so small that they have no bargaining power on the world stage, so war-torn that they have little economic capacity, and so tumultuous that foreign investors look elsewhere. :shrug:

This is why I don't mind the current problems with the realignment of Eastern Germany. In the long run, the people and the territory gained far outweigh the current issues having to be dealt with in bringing the East on line.

Exactly; not a clever move. But a move they can make, none the less. :yes:

[Brenus]

Kosvo is not an Independant Nation because the country on wich it was carved does not recognised id it and still administrate a large part of the "Kosovo state".
Of course some 20 countries did recognised Kosovo, unfortunately for Independant Kosovo, it still have almost 200 others wich didn't. And even if they did, untill Serbia does, Kosovo won't be independant.
Kososvo relies on finances to EU, on defence on US, on police with EU.
If a Kosovar wants to travel he or she does it on a ... Serbian passport...

I think we are going for a Cyprus situation...

[drone]

It's recognized by my government, that's good enough for me. Although of course the real question is, will it be recognized by the Eurovision Song Contest?

Or, much more importantly, does it have a football association recognized by UEFA. :yes:

[Tribesman]

Of course some 20 countries did recognised Kosovo, unfortunately for Independant Kosovo, it still have almost 200 others wich didn't.
Thats 43 countries plus Taiwan . How many of the other countries are waiting for th UN ruling ?
And besides which historicly speaking how long does it take countries to recognise others ?
Some do it pretty instantly , some do it in a few weeks , some do it in a few years or even decades , some never do it .
So that isn't really a good measure at this stage is it .

[Sarmatian]

43 out of 192. That's a little more than 1/5. I've expected much more countries will recognize it by this time. Vatican didn't recognize Kosovo, and probably won't in the foreseeable future.

What's also interesting is that only a few predominantly Muslim countries recognized Kosovo. Only 6 of 57 member countries of Organization of Islamic Conference recognized Kosovo. Turkey pushed strongly for joint statement of support for Kosovo from all Muslim countries but the opposition was equally strong and the idea was rejected with overwhelming majority.

From the countries in the region, Kosovo is recognized as an independent state by Bulgaria, Croatia and Albania. It is not recognized by Romania, Bosnia, Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia, obviosly. (3/9)

Kosovo borders 4 countries: Albania, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro. It is recognized only by Albania, for now. (1/4)

Majority of Nato and EU countries recognized independence, 21/26 and 20/27 respectively.

Out of sport organizations, I know that International Basketball Federation (FIBA) and International Olympic Committee (IOC) said that Kosovo can't become a member until it becomes UN member, which in practice means never.

I don't know about FIFA and UEFA.

Countries that have recognized Kosovo.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/CountriesRecognizingKosovo.png/650px-CountriesRecognizingKosovo.png

[HoreTore]

Well, out of all the countries who actually matter in this world, the majority have recognized Kosovo, with only 2 who haven't(spain and russia). China and India could be counted too though, since they're big and important countries, but I really don't think Hu Jintao gives a rat about what happens in a completely uninteresting backwater place in europe.

Who cares whether Costa Rica or Swaziland recognizes anyone?

[Sarmatian]

Well, that "backwater and completely uninteresting place in Europe" seems to attract much attention of the Great Powers, as we've seen in the past (ww1 rings a bell?) and again in the recent years. Also, I don't think that US builds the second biggest military base (outside of US) and biggest built from scratch in "backwater places", but that is just my opinion.

On the whole, Great Powers are divided. On one hand you have US, UK, Germany and France supporting independence while Russia, China and India are against it. Although Spain isn't without influence, I don't think it's opinion matters even close as that of these 7 countries. Spain's support is important, though, because it is one of the more powerful countries in the EU and relatively influental member of many European organizations.

But what may present just as big problem for independent Kosovo is that biggest regional players aren't supporting the independence, namely Serbia, Greece and Romania. Even those countries in the region that have recognized Kosovo have mostly done it under pressure and won't go to great lengths to support it. Albania is probably the only country in the Balkans that will support independent Kosovo in any case or situation.

So, you have a situation where a small landlocked "country", without support of countries in the region, without much potential to develop its economy (in no small part because most surrounding countries won't support it), with no means to defend its border, without access to most important international organizations, indefinitely dependent on EU and US for aid would have to survive in the 21st century in which, as it seems, the balance of power will switch to those countries that aren't recognizing it (and made perfectly clear that they won't under any circumstances) as an independent state. That is going to be very, very hard and that is something "Kosovars", after initial euphoria has passed, will start to realize... Not right away, not in a year or two, but in a decade or two.

Independent Kosovo is an oxymoron actually, since Kosovo is, and will be, dependent on foreign aid for just about everything.

[HoreTore]

Well, that "backwater and completely uninteresting place in Europe" seems to attract much attention of the Great Powers, as we've seen in the past (ww1 rings a bell?) and again in the recent years. Also, I don't think that US builds the second biggest military base (outside of US) in the world and biggest built from scratch in "backwater places", but that is just my opinion.

That's the US+western europe vs eastern europe(russia) fight. I doubt China or India cares too much about that. So I'd guess that the chinese and indians see it as an uninteresting backwater. There's nothing there for either of them to exploit there, and little business to be done...

[CountArach]

That's the US+western europe vs eastern europe(russia) fight. I doubt China or India cares too much about that. So I'd guess that the chinese and indians see it as an uninteresting backwater. There's nothing there for either of them to exploit there, and little business to be done...
You are forgetting the most important thing HoreTore. China does not want to recognise Kosovo because it gives some legitimacy to the Tibetan Freedom movement. The Indians probably have a similar situation that I can't be bothered to dig up, but I am sure it is there. Spain did not recognise Kosovo for the same reason (The Basque movement).

[Sarmatian]

That's the US+western europe vs eastern europe(russia) fight. I doubt China or India cares too much about that. So I'd guess that the chinese and indians see it as an uninteresting backwater. There's nothing there for either of them to exploit there, and little business to be done...

Global Powers think globally. That's why they're called Global Powers. If it's interesting enough for one global power to build a huge military base and fill it with tens of thousands of soldiers it's interesting enough for others. If we try to follow your logic, then the same could be applied to US, which, as we know, didn't find Balkans either uninteresting or backwater. Not now, not 20 years ago when the ex-yu situation started to heat up, not 30 ago when Tito died and one US carrier immediately sailed in the Adriatic and so on... And world is getting smaller. If anything, areas like this will become even more interesting for the big guys. And stuff like independence of Kosovo, which is illegal and has no moral or historical justification, will serve as an excellent point of pressure....

[HoreTore]

Global Powers think globally. That's why they're called Global Powers. If it's interesting enough for one global power to build a huge military base and fill it with tens of thousands of soldiers it's interesting enough for others. If we try to follow your logic, then the same could be applied to US, which, as we know, didn't find Balkans either uninteresting or backwater. Not now, not 20 years ago when the ex-yu situation started to heat up, not 30 ago when Tito died and one US carrier immediately sailed in the Adriatic and so on... And world is getting smaller. If anything, areas like this will become even more interesting for the big guys. And stuff like independence of Kosovo, which is illegal and has no moral or historical justification, will serve as an excellent point of pressure....

No, the US cares because the russians are very interested in the balkans(as well as the rest of eastern europe). The russians are interested because they're close and within their influence.

The independence movement point might be valid though, but I'm not convinced they care too much, really.

AFAIK, seperatists in India are mostly border fights with other countries, like fighting with pakistan over Kashmir.

An easy way to find out though, would be to find any comments from the chinese and indian governments on the situation... If none are to be found, I'm pretty sure it means they don't care too much...

EDIT: I was wrong: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-02/19/content_6464411.htm

So China cares because Taiwan acted up. As for India, they seem to side slightly with serbia: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/02/19/stories/2008021959721000.htm

So, for the countries who matter in this world, the score is now 6 pro(france, germany, US, UK, canada, italy) and 4 against(russia, china, india and spain).

Though it is worth noting that of those 4 only 2 are democracies and only one is western, one is a horribly oppressive dictatorship and another is on the way to becoming one again... While all the 6 pro are shining democracies...

[seireikhaan]

To be totally and completely honest- and apologies to any I offend in advance- I simply don't care anymore about the Balkans. I cannot muster the emotional or intellectual energy to care about a swath of different ethnic groups who all seem to have bones to pick with each other and will soon reduce the balkan map to a large series of black dots that represent thousands of cities who all 'liberated' themselves from their horrible 'oppressors'.

[rory_20_uk]

Kosovo is one of the many problems in the world that I know little about - and can't be bothered to educate myself about. Some mountain with various Balkan nutters who want to kill each other based on events 500 to 1,500 years ago.

For the locals to sort out / kill each other as they see fit.

~:smoking:

[Sarmatian]

To be totally and completely honest- and apologies to any I offend in advance- I simply don't care anymore about the Balkans. I cannot muster the emotional or intellectual energy to care about a swath of different ethnic groups who all seem to have bones to pick with each other and will soon reduce the balkan map to a large series of black dots that represent thousands of cities who all 'liberated' themselves from their horrible 'oppressors'.

You're right in a way. I sincerely hope that all these different religious and ethnic groups can start cooperating and that this extraordinary diversity will turn in an asset rather than a hindrance for the Balkans. But, it can not be overlooked that this region suffered constantly from meddling of the Great Powers, perhaps more so than any other region in the world. It's also funny how different ethnic groups found it impossible to live in the same country and now all of them are trying to become members of EU where they won't live only with each other but with more than 20 other nations...

I'll write in the next several days a historical article about Yugoslavia, its origin and its short history, concluding with Kosovo independence, and post it in the monastery. It seems that a lot of people have only vague knowledge and I think some will find it interesting


No, the US cares because the russians are very interested in the balkans(as well as the rest of eastern europe). The russians are interested because they're close and within their influence.

The independence movement point might be valid though, but I'm not convinced they care too much, really.

AFAIK, seperatists in India are mostly border fights with other countries, like fighting with pakistan over Kashmir.

An easy way to find out though, would be to find any comments from the chinese and indian governments on the situation... If none are to be found, I'm pretty sure it means they don't care too much...

EDIT: I was wrong: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-02/19/content_6464411.htm

So China cares because Taiwan acted up. As for India, they seem to side slightly with serbia: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/02/19/stories/2008021959721000.htm

So, for the countries who matter in this world, the score is now 6 pro(france, germany, US, UK, canada, italy) and 4 against(russia, china, india and spain).

Though it is worth noting that of those 4 only 2 are democracies and only one is western, one is a horribly oppressive dictatorship and another is on the way to becoming one again... While all the 6 pro are shining democracies...

They definitely care. It's even easier for them to care when Russia is acting up and all they need to do is support them, rather than having themselves organize everything. And India supports Serbia fully, not slightly. That link that you gave is outdated. Click 1 (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=31&nav_id=48973), Click 2 (http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/24794)

Shiny democracy is not a term I would use to describe some of those countries but that's another topic for another thread.

[Conradus]

So, for the countries who matter in this world, the score is now 6 pro(france, germany, US, UK, canada, italy) and 4 against(russia, china, india and spain).


Japan recognizes them and I'd say that country is a lot more important than Spain or Italy.

[Brenus]

Japan doesn't belong to EU. Spain and Italy do.

[Conradus]

Japan doesn't belong to EU. Spain and Italy do.

Yes I know that, but the US and Canada aren't EU either. Horetore said 'countries that matter in the world' Japan matters more than Spain or Italy.

[Brenus]

What matters for Kosovo is who have influence on their lives. US has a base. Serbia has a minority living there, a historical claim and a legal point about it. Spain and Italy can stop any EU accession, not Japan, not US. So, on a long term, support from Spain and Italy is more important for Kosovo.

And the fact is without Seria's agreement and good will, Kosovo will be always a not legal entity without any future than to be a US base.
Reason why US supports Independant Kosovo.

[Sarmatian]

Japan is powerful country in terms of economy, no doubt. But it's economic influence in the region is almost non-existent, so it can't be used as a point of pressure. Japan also doesn't have an army, it's far away, it's not a member of most important political institutions that will deal with Kosovo, so it's decision to recognize Kosovo or not is not important.

Similar situation as Brazil. They've said they'll only recognize Kosovo if Serbia does. Big, powerful country that's on the rise but it doesn't have the means to project it's influence yet, so it's decision to support Serbia is not so important. I'd even say that support from Greece, as regional power and EU member is much more important than that of Brazil at the moment. Of course, Greek lobby, which is one of the best organized also contributes to this.

This is a short term victory for the US but a long term loss. This allowed Russia, China and India to present themselves as protectors of the rights of small states for the first time after the Cold War, it showed some Balkan countries that they could have same foreign policy goals as Russia which is very important after all bad memories after WW2, it showed that US influence is in the decline and at this time limited to North America and western Europe, it showed that some western democratic governments don't care what their population think and many other issues...

[rory_20_uk]

I think enough British blood is shed sorting out the messes of others already without helping this can of worms.

~:smoking:

[Spino]

I think the most important question ought to be.... "Should the rest of Europe and the world even care about Kosovo or the rest of the Balkans?"

The place has been a hotbed of ethnic, religious and territorial strife for a very long time and every attempt by outsiders to bring some semblance of order or stability to the region has either been about as effective as using a bandaid to address a severed artery or has made things worse.

The best anyone can do is to contain the violence to the region and try to mediate, not meddle, in the dealings between the various factions.

[Conradus]

What matters for Kosovo is who have influence on their lives. US has a base. Serbia has a minority living there, a historical claim and a legal point about it. Spain and Italy can stop any EU accession, not Japan, not US. So, on a long term, support from Spain and Italy is more important for Kosovo.

True as this is, it makes no difference to what I've stated. Japan is on worldscale far more influencial than Spain or Italy and that was what HoreTore was referring to.

You're absolutely right on the other hand though. The EU matters to Kosovo and Spain and Italy have a fair amount of power in the EU.