Strategic Online Game. The True Survivor!

[Kasagi Yabu]

Ok, this has been talked about before, but let's give it a try. I replied earlier to Shingenmitch2 in the Mongol Forum about the online game. He agreed with someone that it would come down to a 2 on 3 game, with the two middle clans being wiped out. This is because they at least two clans would have to fight on two fronts and would be overwhelmed. I assumed he was talking about Oda and Mori, but I could be wrong. Here's my take if the online game works like I think it is and if seven people were playing it now

Oda and More would HAVE to ally. This is fundamental. Benefits to Mori. With his flank protected by me and rich Harima (with mine built) protected, he, Mori, concentrates on clearing out Takeda's three provinces, Bingo and two others. Not bad with the port and castle that Mori will capture. Then I, Oda, can concentrate on the ronin in Yamashiro and Ise. I may agree to let Mori take the Island beneath him. There's two good provinces there, Tosa with a castle and one with like 350 koku. The other ronin in above me, I don't know if I would bother. Ok, here goes a lot more conjecture

Imagawa. I think these poor bastards are in a lot of trouble. First, what does he do about his three provinces far away in Shimazu land? Ally with Shimazu? Is Shimazu stupid? No way he lets this happen. What does Imagawa do about it? I don't think there's much he can do. And once those three are gone, lost to Shimazu, he's screwed. His main problem is at main province. Now, he's got no money. Where is he to go? Attack me, Oda? And where, my capitol province at Owari? Over my dead body. It will never happen. Attack Takeda? I don't know. I would think those two would ally, but I think Takeda would benefit a lot more from this. Imagawa, your finished, so sorry.

Takeda. I think he falls right after Imagawa. Ok. He loses his three provinces to Mori. Now what. Does he ally with Imagawa, just to keep him off? Or, does he ally with Hojo or Uesagi. Hmm, the more I think about it, this wouldn't be a bad idea. Takeda allies with Uesagi and divide up Hojo. This could work. Takeda makes a mad dash to Musashi, while Uesagi takes Hitachi or Kozuke. Wow, this is interesting. This could actually work, taking Hojo out and leaving Takeda in a good position, even having lost three provinces to Mori. I take back what I said earlier. Takeda could do well.

Uesagi. Ok, before I stared typing all of this, I gave up on these guys, this is what I written first..
'I think Uesugi's screwed..possibly. Does he ally with Hojo? What would Hojo gain. Free reign over Takeda's holdings, Sagami, Kai. And what would this gain Uesugi? Give him time to build up his armies and do what with them. Expand against who? I don't think that would work. If they did ally, then woe on to the rest of us. We, Oda, Imagawa, and Takeda would have to throw our combined weight against Hojo/Uesugi. But Takeda and Imagawa would still be screwed, because Mori is still cleaning up Takeda's territories and Shimazu is all over Imagawa'

Now I'm rethinking this, with an alliance with Takeda, dividing Hojo up between you. Interesting.

Hojo. I think this one is tough. Your the strongest and everyone knows it. With the above strategy of an alliance between Uesagi and Takeda, you could be screwed. Takeda attacks Musashi while Uesagi attacks Kozuke or Hitatchi. Do you offer an alliance with Takeda to divide up Uesagi? Agree to let Takeda take Shinano and Echigo? Wow, how genarous. Takeda would me stupid to take this instead of a Uesagi alliance. I think Hojo's done.

Lastly, Shimazu. Who to ally with. I say Mori. Take out Imagawa and just sit back. The only territories worth taking after Imagawa's gone is the four province island, with two good ones.

I haven't even considered port jumping. Hmm. Any thoughts?

[Alastair]

My first reaction once I got to imagawa was ROFLMAU!! Have you ever tried playing Shimazu? Do you know how hard it is to kill Imagawa? Imagawa has the three best provinces on the island, and one of them is a river. I think it's more Shimazu that's screwed than anyone. If Mori gets the Ronin, then they're TOTALLY screwed, not just mostly, for lack of money.

My second reaction, when I got to Uesugi was Laugh, laugh... this is getting pretty bad. Uesugi has the best damn koku provinces on the map! If they take Hitachi, they're even better! Everyone else is screwed just for lack of relative koku!

You need to talk to Shaihulud or Jobeare.

[Gregoshi]

Alastair, you are thinking of playing the AI in the SP game. In the SP game, the AI moves slow and favors going after you, thus making the Shimazu move against the Imagawa difficult.

In the MP campaign as Shimazu, you talk to Oda, Takeda or Uesugi and try to get them to put heat on Imagawa in the east while you pressure in the west. Imagawa collapses under the dual pressure - you get the west and your ally gets the east (or splits it with others). Of course, this assumes your human opponents follow your script. That is the beauty of the MP campaign.

It seems to me the downside of the MP campaign will be that the human clans will be much more aggressive and the campaign may resolve itself unnaturally fast compared to the SP game or history. Of course only time will tell.

BTW, I agree with Kasagi about the Oda-Mori alliance being almost a given - at least on the surface...imagine Mori making a secret alliance with Shimazu, so Shimazu can concentrate on Imagawa and Mori can stick it to Oda! Oh the possibilities!

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[Alastair]

Quote All you have to do is take out Mutsu.
[/QUOTE]
HA. If the Uesugi player is any good, they will DEFEND Mutsu, and Mutsu is a very defensible province, what with that huge Cemetery Ridge-like ridge. More like Hojo is screwed if Uesugi gets Hitachi. Then he gets 620 more koku a year, more with improvements or a port.
On the other topic, even if Imagawa doesn't concentrate solely on you, Shimazu is pretty strapped for cash in any case, and is out of cash and dead if he doesn't get the ronin island.



[This message has been edited by Alastair (edited 05-12-2001).]

[Kasagi Yabu]

"My first reaction once I got to imagawa was ROFLMAU!! Have you ever tried playing Shimazu? Do you know how hard it is to kill Imagawa? Imagawa has the three best provinces on the island, and one of them is a river. I think it's more Shimazu that's screwed than anyone. If Mori gets the Ronin, then they're TOTALLY screwed, not just mostly, for lack of money."

Hmm. I realize that Imagawa has a fine army. It's just the fact that she will have, what, four clans to worry about. Shimazu, Oda, Takeda, and Uesagi. Four different fronts...FOUR. All Shimazu will have is one. Who else is going to attack Shimazu? No one. Not Mori. She only has Imagawa. If I were Oda and allied with Mori, and as soon as Imagawa sends troops against Shimazu, I take Mikawa. Now, if Imagawa has good relations with Oda, Usagi and Takeda, and just fights Shimaza, then you maybe right. If not, they are done. Also, if you play Mori right, you have enough money. You may not have a great infrastructure, but you have enough money for men to do some damange.

"My second reaction, when I got to Uesugi was Laugh, laugh... this is getting pretty bad. Uesugi has the best damn koku provinces on the map! If they take Hitachi, they're even better! Everyone else is screwed just for lack of relative koku! You need to talk to Shaihulud or Jobeare"

Now, here you may have a point. I said "if" Takeda helps, then Uesagi is in a good position. But, if it's them against Hojo, with no allies to strike at Hojo, watch out. All you have to do is take out Mutsu. Game over for Uesagi. Once it's gone, they are dead. To crush Hojo, you must take either Musashi/Hitatchi and strike at Shimosa, destroying his industrial capicity. If I were Hojo, I would sacrifice Musashi or Hitachi for Mutsu. And once Hojo has done it's damange, then Takeda and Imagawa will fall on Uesagi.Maybe you should contact those two and get some more advice.

Thanks Gregoshi.

[Krasturak]

It seems to me that the two clans that are split can do ok by reducing their taxes and allowing enemies to capture provinces ...

The revolts can give them free soldiers.

The script doesnt take that into account.

[Alastair]

I take it you are refering to Jobeare's Shimazu strategy. This is ok, but sometimes they don't revolt for you, and in MP campaign, they can see this tactic, and just lower their taxes too.

[Gregoshi]

I think a lot of SP strategies are going out the window with MP. Just think about port invasions with enemies that will use it. Ports may become extinct because the koku expenditure and invasion risk aren't worth the income. However, non-Imagawa/Takeda clans may build a port to surprise Imagawa/Takeda with a port invasion - or at least the threat of one. As with the original game, I'm sure game philosophies, stategies and tactics will evolve over time. It will be interesting for sure.

One thing I am curious about is how much information will you will get about the actions of the other clans. For example, if a clan goes Christian, will the other clans know?

This is a great topic. I hadn't really given much specific thoughts to the possible dynamics of the MP campaign before. Interest thoughts going on around here.

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[Kraellin]

the one thing that bugs me about ports is that all sea travel is invisible and instantaneous. i think that's a big mistake. now, i'm not a beta tester, so maybe that isnt the case with the multi campaign, but to be able to go from one end of the island to the other without being seen and in a single move is kind of a serious tactical advantage and/or disadvantage. i hope they've addressed this for the multi game.

K.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Kraellin-san, the ports will be clearly visible to everyone on the strategic map (much like castles... maybe even in provinces you technically can't see), so at least you'll know when they're going to teleport on you. Maybe it'll be even more fleshed out, though... As I always say at the exp pack forum, we'll see.

In general, the MP campaign "script" will be very, very unpredictable. That's the beauty of it. Think what will happen if Shimazu and Imagawa make a non-aggression pact; both will have secure rears in order to pursue other interests. While the Shimazu may initially seem to be getting the worst part of the deal, think how soon they can occupy Shikoku ("Rônin Island") while Môri is still busy with Takeda. (Unless, of course, the Môri and Takeda have a pact. So many excellent opportunities for double-crossing and underhanded deals... In the true spirit of the Art of War. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)

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"3. Jin: universal love, benevolence toward mankind; compassion."

[Anjin-san]

Quote Originally posted by Gregoshi:
I think a lot of SP strategies are going out the window with MP. Just think about port invasions with enemies that will use it. Ports may become extinct because the koku expenditure and invasion risk aren't worth the income. However, non-Imagawa/Takeda clans may build a port to surprise Imagawa/Takeda with a port invasion - or at least the threat of one. As with the original game, I'm sure game philosophies, stategies and tactics will evolve over time. It will be interesting for sure.

[/QUOTE]

Excellant. I got to say, ports could be a major problem. Kraellin got it right to. If there is a port invasion, you would have to be given warning, say 3 or 4 turns to get troops there, wouldn't you. If not, I don't believe anybody will be building ports, or there will be massive port battles. The game may become like the 30 years war, where no one can move away from their main supply bases' (ports). If they do, they risk being invaded behind their main armies. Early in the game, a port invasion on say, Imagawa's Tomi, and a victory, would devastate Imagawa.

I was Kasagi Yabu. I've been given back my old name of Anjin-san

[Kraellin]

i think the whole idea of ports is good. japan is an island nation. it's only natural to have them. but like anssi called it, 'teleport', is just not a good way to do it. why not divide the ocean up into provinces and show the ships en route? or something like that. i dont really need sea battles, though that might be cool, but some warning of their coming would be nice.

ok, communications were very poor in those days, so you wouldnt necessarily know right away that an enemy fleet was headed your way or even that it had launched from this port or that, but perhaps info comes to you on a delayed basis that such and such a fleet has sailed from such and such a port, or, if you had shinobis in the province they sailed from you would get the info a lot sooner and have it be more accurate as to where it's going and what it's size is.

i know i won a number of single player games by simply showing up on an enemy's back door through the use of 'tele ports' and players are a lot more cunning than ai's...with a few exceptions.

i want the ports, i just dont want tele-ports.

K.

[Alastair]

Actually, teleporting is (somewhat) realistic. Travel in those days was MUCH, MUCH faster by sea compared to by land. Consider the size of Japan. Rather small by sea standards, don't you think? I mean, at around that time, the Spanish were sailing across the Atlantic in a few MONTHS! WEEKS even, if the weather was really good!

[Gregoshi]

And don't forget, each turn is three months long. Plenty of time to sail from one end of Japan to the other - and back.

Now to flip flop from supporting Alastair to supporting Kraellin, although movement by sea would be quicker, you just don't have 1000 men hop on some ships sail away. The ships have to be gathered/built and supplies gathered. A shinobi would notice such activity and alert that such-and-such clan is preparing to sailing from port xyz. Is it an invasion or just transporting to another friendly port? Maybe the shinobi would learn that too, or maybe not.

How you would work this into simultaneous orders being issued in the strategic part of the game is an interesting problem.


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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[This message has been edited by Gregoshi (edited 05-13-2001).]

[Alastair]

Gooood point. Hmm. Well, it should probably cost something to move stuff by port, with the price increasing by increments of ships, each of which hold 500. That way, if a shinobi buys passage, it's the same as 500 men, which makes sense, since it's one boat.

[Satake]

Anjin-San? The old Anjin-San? cooooolll ... seen Gandalf l8ly? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Satake]

Just wondering , is that the old name from the old forum they transferred or something?

[shingenmitch2]

Anjin-san ... he got peed on. What a loser. But I suppose that's better than the oil dipping.

Sorry about you're geisha wife... seppuku was really the only option.

[Vanya]

Well, in SP, Imagawa almost always sits tight in Kyushu and goes straight for Shinano. So I think you are missing something here. What makes you think a human Imagawa player would not do the same? Shinano is the lynchpin in the east. You control it, and you can easily divvy up the rest of the east. The fact it is highly defensible makes it a meatgrinder for anyone to attack it -- unless you guard it with 16 ashigaru, that is...



[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 05-14-2001).]

[Ii Naomasa]

From what I have read, comparing the Japanese and Spanish navies of the 16th century would be a little foolhardy. The Japanese navy didn't have swift, sturdy ocean-going vessels that the European powers developed. For the most part, their fleets were coastal fleets. They were somewhat clunky and more often than not they had to hug the coastline. Given the shape of Japan, there were very few 'shortcuts' a ship could take. In my humble opinion, experienced runners, or scouts with horses could outrun most sea going transports. One could probably even out march the ship if you were willing to have tired men when you arrived there.

Given that the current method of movement is abstracted (in real life it shouldn't take you three years to walk from one end of Japan to the other), sea zones wouldn't be the worst thing (we'll then need 'shinobi fishing boats' that can report on sea traffic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ). Perhaps they could limit the amount of troops that can be moved to an enemy port. This would make ports more easy to defend, yet still give people the chance to take advantage of someone leaving a port undefended.

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 05-14-2001).]

[shingenmitch2]

Ii - Good suggestions/points.

Before STW, I designed my own board game. Like STW, it was drawn (roughly) in concept from the old SHOGUN board game. Execpt my map board was huge 4' x 8' in length.

In it I had movement within provinces (each province probably had 10x20 movement hexes) with ground and troop type dictating distance traveled within the province. When major armies came in contact, I had a separate "battle board" where the armies broke down into tactical units to duke it out.

The movement within provinces made the "strategic" end of things more strategic/operational level and was more diverse and interesting. Deep Rivers became long boarder defenses with several bridge choke points. Small rivers could be forded and attacked across -- at a penalty of troops that could be brought into the fight.

Mountains and forests affected the movement, channeling troops into "valley" regions.
Movement was more realistic. I would love to show it to the EA guys to show them how this kind of thing could work in the future.

AND oh, the point of all this -- I had coastal hexes. You could watch the transports floating menacingly. No coast (or deep river) was safe from marauding armies. Screw ports (that's where ships could dock safely) Armies could be landed on any open plains coast (not mountain coast).

ADDED BENEFIT of coastal fleets --This eliminated the "CORNER DAMIYOs" only having to worry about 1 or 2 fronts. Every Daimyo had a vulnerable back door.


[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 05-14-2001).]

[Anjin-san]

Will Adams, aka John Blackthorne, aka Anjin-san, was the first Enlishman/Dutch to reach Japan in April 1600. This is where I get my name Anjin-san/John Blackthorn, from James Clavell's novel, Shogun.

From the Britannica.com,.

"He -Tokugawa Ieyasu -aka Yohsi Toranaga-appointed two of the crew, the Englishman Will Adams and Jan Joosten van Lodensteijn, as senior advisors to his government. Both remained in the service of Japan for the rest of their lives."

Hardly a loser shingenmitch2...

Satake, I don't know about Gandalf...

Vanya, depending on a lot of things or course, I just don't see how human controlled Imagawa will be in a position to take Shinano. I'd imagine the human Shimazu will be attempting to drive Imagawa out of his island. Imagawa will hardly be in a postion to fight a two front war.

[Kraellin]

shingen,

yes, that's what i'm talking about too. i think you've got it exactly right about the coastal stuff and ship types. it would add a lot more playability to the game. i'm a game addict, not a history addict. screw history if it detracts from game play :) but in this case, i think they mesh.

K.

[shingenmitch2]

Krael -- Especially in a war game ... historical accuracy and realism when done propperly, always add to game play. (grin)

The reason STW is so darn good. Is because of its realism. No other game combines the "realism of battle effects" (tactics) and the best realism of "actually being there." (aesthetics)

[shingenmitch2]

Hehe -- Blackthorn ... Lord Toronaga wants your guns... still gotta wipe that pee off tho. (grin)

[Alastair]

Military history is the basis for all well done games. It is the most complex war scenario ever, because it's the real thing. Therefore, the closer games come to simulating it exactly, the better they get.