Surprisingly bad units

[QuintusSertorius]

This is the opposite to the other thread (which is again mirrored on TWC (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=169914)). This is dedicated to expensive, rare and supposedly "elite" units which are actually a waste of mnai. Or even more regular ones that are supposed to be good, but simply aren't. Overpriced, underpowered, and generally not worthy of their salt.

They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_camillan_eqvites.gif https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_polybian_eqvites.gif

Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.

I'm starting to think Thessalian Heavy Cavalry aren't worth the money either, they tire ridiculously fast and they're no good if they get caught in a melee, even with all that armour.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/greece/rebel_hippeis_thessalikoi.gif

I get more bang for buck from medium or even light cavalry. Even on the shock charge at which they supposedly excel.

While I've had a better time with them recently using them in their proper role, Thureophoroi are quite weak considering their stats.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_thureophoroi.gif

As flankers they're alright, but they can't hold a line. I use them because they were used historically, rather than them being a unit of choice. Though they always seem to recover a lot of their injuries after a battle.

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_pheraspidai.gif

Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.

What else is there that's poor value for money?

[konny]

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_pheraspidai.gif

Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.



I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?



Here are some that did not impress me very much:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_uirodusios.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_drapanai.gif

Both might have their use when closing in on the enemy - but that would require a battlefield free of any missle units, including javelins.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_iphikratous_hoplitai.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_thorakitai_hoplitai.gif

Useful with long pikes and phalanx ability; without it absolutly pathetic. Always hire classical Hoplites or real Thorakitai instead.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_ridanz.gif

Way to weak for their price.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_baktrian_early_bg.gif

The best looking mounted bodyguard ingame, but no match for their Parthian or Saka counterparts.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?

I've never used them, so I'm not sure what people were doing with them to say that.

I did see the AI use them to force a bridge crossing (all good so far), but then charge my front line of spearmen (dumb).

I agree with you on Drapanai - scary if they can get into melee, but hit them at range and they drop like flies.

[Swordmaster]

Thureophoroi will break under pressure, that's a given. So when you make sure they don't come under pressure, they will do the job. Problem is that this makes them rather unreliable and in need of constant supervision on the battlefield.

The main prize, however, in this thread will probably go to...

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_indian_elephant.gif

...any and all elephants. Sure, they make a big impression, but losing them to a band of skirmishers usually doesn't, turning your treasury into a laughing stock. Only recruit them when you swim in money, and on the battlefield, keep them far away from your own troops, in case they run amok.

[konny]

....or artillery. I have never bothered to buy them in EB (did so once in BI) but the AI has them from time to time. It cannot keep up with the army if any kind of manouvering is required and needs constant protection from cavalry because even Hippakontistai will kill it. On the few occasions it got some shots away, the result was not as damaging as if my units had been under fire of experinced slingers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

With the exception of Ridanz (Curepos much better bang for the bucks, especially in a spear-heavy enviroment -- and both aren't elite anyways), I get to chuckle every time I see such thread. What it is you guys do to you troops I don't know; but there is something called playing to strengths.

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

Elephants can be very useful; it's a matter of timing mostly. A unit which is able to quickly decide a drawn-out fight on the flanks is always useful -- I've had units of the simpler elephant types crash into my own infantry at times (custom battles). For comparison: a unit of Triballoi was reduced within seconds to a mere 75 men on hughe, which is something not even heavy AP infantry can do.

[konny]

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.


Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

The difference between Iphikratians and Germanic pikemen is that the Sweboz variant is the only decently armoured unit for a reasonable price available to this faction. That makes them so important. The Greeks have Thureophoroi, Classical Hoplites and Thorakitai that can do anything the non-phalanx Iphikratians can do, and a lot more. That is, a unit of Iphikratians against Classicals will be killed in 9 out of 10 time, the same goes for Thorakitai Phalanx vs. Thorakitai Spearmen.

No, I can't see any reason recruiting them without phalanx mode. A weaker underhand spearmen formation is definitly not needed for the Greeks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.


Which is what you use Doryphoroi for. Not overly expensive troops, big shields, javelins and reasonable morale for their cost. The Falxmen shoud enjoy the protection of the Doryphoroi, and when it gets to melee it should be the other way around. :juggle:

[Tyrfingr]

The scythed chariots blows big time, but then again, that is no surprise...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

[QuintusSertorius]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

I only ever charge my cavalry into the back of engaged, and tired infantry. I don't leave them in melee either. I know how to use cavalry, I get great results doing exactly that with "light" cavalry like Curepos or Illyrian Hippeis as well as mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi. They don't get tired after a couple of charges as those useless Thessalians do.

Thrakian Prodromoi are simply better value for money, and indeed better units. Lance-wise, they're identical. Thrakians have a point better sword skill, and theirs have a higher lethality. They have a point worse defense skill and armour than the Thessalians and their morale isn't as good. But the real killer is that they have ridiculously good stamina, and can full-charge again and again. None of that lumbering tired charge that hardly does anything after your second time.


- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

Not my personal claim, I've never used them.


- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

They're no good at holding a line, and make reasonable flankers. Except the best flankers are swordsmen, for getting into enemy spearmen. Peltastai are a better medium infantry bet, unless you also want to cover against enemy cavalry.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered

Iberian Lancearii

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_iberian_lancearii.gif

They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.



Prodromoi

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_prodromoi.gif

There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.



Thraikioi Hippeis

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_thrakioi_hippeis.gif

They have their uses, for sure, but unfortunately not in an army that is reduced to 20. The same goes for any skirmischer cavalry, except early game when you don't have anything better.



Brihentin

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_cavalry_brihentin.gif

For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee... :grin:

[jhhowell]

Not sure I'd say "bad" per se, but definitely not worth the money - Armenian cataphracts (can probably generalize to Parthians as well). They're very capable, but very expensive. And the key point is that the cataphract horse archers are available one MIC level lower, for less money, and equal charging ability. The pure cataphracts just get you a melee weapon (IIRC armor is the same, at least for Hayasdan). Add to that the widespread availability of Kinsmen who are the best non-cataphract heavy cav in the game, plenty good enough to form the cavalry wing of an eastern army, with a cost around 60% of cataphracts. Not much point other than eye candy/flavor/RP to pay for the expensive pure cataphracts.

Relatedly, the Armenian Noble Infantry. Same stats as veteran Shipri Tukul (3 chevrons, IIRC), with less convenient recruiting cities and higher cost. And the ST can be recruited as mercenaries for extra convenience.

Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry - by the time the player can get these, Hayasdan will almost certainly control at least one of Kotais or Mtsheta (or however you spell that one). The latter both allow Scythian horse archers from a regional MIC1, which means all jav-cav in the realm are obsolete. A similar argument can be made against the Dahae jav-cav further east.

Velites - unless they've gotten a lethality upgrade on their melee weapon since I last looked at them, they're just understrength leves/akontistai with a couple more points of armor. Leves/akontistai are the way to go for javelin-tossing, Peltasts can fight well in melee, last I checked Velites were mediocre to poor in both roles.

[The General]

Iberian Lancearii

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_iberian_lancearii.gif

They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.

I agree with this.

[Fondor_Yards]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saka/saka_indogreek_hoplite.gif

Hoplitai Indohellenikoi are garbage. They can't even hold the line against other light and medium infantry, and have trouble fighting even light cavalry. Everyone who can recruit them can also get far more useful infantry instead, with a better recruitment area too, so I see zero need to ever include them in an army.

[konny]

Prodromoi

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_prodromoi.gif

There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

[Swordmaster]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.
That's quite true.

After all I think there are no "bad" units, every unit has its use. Every unit mentioned in my previous post I have readily employed in my respective campaigns so far as Carthage or Makedonia. EB is best played role-played. One shouldn't go purely after stats and upkeep.

[QuintusSertorius]

Roleplaying is precisely why I do use Thureophoroi, in spite of not thinking they're brilliant.

[LorDBulA]

Surprisingly bad units

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Dropanai: This guys are awsome.
Sure they are missing armour and shield but are butchers at meal and are dirty cheep. Can butcher much more expensive and much heavier opponents.
They do die like flies under misile fire but this is not unexpected or suprising. They have no armour or shield for crying out loud.

Elephants:
This is unit of extremes. Either they will crush enemy army in no time all will fail miserebly. There is no middle ground with this unit.
I once as Epeirote conquared whole Sicily and Itally with single army with 1 unit of unarmourd elephants. Fought 4 or 5 huge battles and each time my casualties where between 1-3%.
This was only thanks to elephants, normally fighting romans in itally I was suffering 15-50% casualties.
With Elephants I didnt have to reinforce my main army (other then organising garissons for captures cities ) through whole campaign. This is huge bang for the buck if you take into account short campaign time (saves many on upkeep ), much smaller loses (saves money both on training of new troops and upkeep while you transport them to front ).
Of course elephants are not type of unit that you keep in your army all the time. You train them for specific campaign and after you destroyed enemy full stacks and there is no huge formations to fight anymore disbands at once.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

[QuintusSertorius]

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

Ah I think 'role they're designed for' might be a bit subject to personal playing styles. To me I use *no* cavalry whatsoever to repeatedly charge whatever unit; unless I am feeling otherwise really confident about it.

Instead I use my cavalry to:
1) Dispatch enemy cavalry with (one point to the Thessalians or Brihentin for that matter)
2) Dispatch lighter enemy missile troops: no point in attacking guys with pointy sticks...
3) Quickly push back some enemy units which are getting a bit too succesful for my liking You'd be amazed at what a full charge focused on the corner or a small gap of a unit can do when that unit is already in full melee.
4) Destroy routing units
5) Break shaken or wavering units; or at least speed up the process.
6) Break enemy bodyguards. Heavy cavalry with kopeis? Hell, yeah!

Seriously: units of Thessalian heavy cavalry tend to be extremly valuable when dealing with an endless steam of Ptolemaioi bodyguard cavalry... Especially if you can't afford or can't get your hands on anything better (Kinsmen or better yet, Hetairoi).
===========================================

Also someone mentioned Scythed Chariots as being bad? What has he/she been doing to those?! :inquisitive: Best thing to break those annoying 'surprisingly good units' the enemy AI tends to field -- I mean Hoplitai Haploi, Peltastai and the like. Very useful against a lot of cavalry also.

[QuintusSertorius]

I use cavalry for the following tasks:
1) Keep other cavalry away from my skirmishers
2) Keep other cavalry away from the flanks or rear of my line troops
3) [With light cavalry] Roam about behind the enemy front line, messing with their morale and firing missiles into their backs
4) [With fast mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi] Hunt down the enemy general*
5) Whittle down numbers and reduce the morale of already engaged enemy infantry, by charging to their rear at full pelt; pull out once contact is made, repeat and rinse
6) Drive off, or even kill enemy skirmishers - especially their slingers
7) [For horse-archers] Push enemy horse archers away from effective range on my infantry, especially my slingers
8) Kill routing enemies

Number 5) is the main one I use any heavies for, once the entire enemy force is engaged fighting someone and so they can't throw infantry in the way of a charge before it reaches full speed and levelled lances. I don't leave them engaged in melee, but pull them out again if the unit hasn't broken, retreat to charging distance and go again. Units like Curepos are brilliant at this once you've used up all your javelins, they have AP lances so get a lot of kills. Because of their stamina, they can do it repeatedly too. Sure you lose two or three of them each time, but it's worth it for the result.

Indeed often just having your cavalry moving around behind the enemy will start pushing their morale in the direction of routing.

Now I didn't list dispatch enemy cavalry because often they'll come to me, and my infantry can kill them with much fewer losses. Or better yet, while they're pinned fighting my infantry in melee, I can charge them. In a recent battle I killed some of those Hellenic Cataphracts that way, they charged the Thrakian Peltasts guarding my left flank, so an FM and unit of Curepos swept out wide then charged in on them. They lost almost half their number in the first charge, and leaving the FM melee-ing with them, I pulled the Curepos out and charged again. Kataphraktoi broke, game over heavy cavalry.

*Though this is often unnecessary since he suicide-charges my front line most of the time

[Irishmafia2020]

Peltastai Makedonikai - A very good unit! I love this unit and I will defend their prowess. They have won a number of battles for me against elite non-phalanx infantry and cavalry.

Thueroperoi (spelling) - their role is to be cheap, but capable soldiers, like the Hastati of Rome. Expect them to take causalities, but if they die, at least they are cheap to replace. If that is not your attitude, then this unit is very disappointing (I certainly was initially).

Successor Medium Cavalry- like Thueroperoi on horserback. Cheap and die like flies, but widely recruitable - Any other expectation will lead to disappointment.

Thessalian Heavy Cav - I agree that they are not fantastic. I tend to recruit Greek Noble Cavalry instead if I have the local option. They suffer too many causalities in contrast to Companion Cav. You might be better off throwing away Successor medium units than investing in Thessalian. On the other hand, in the west (against Rome, Greece) they are pretty strong.

My disappointing units -

Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.

Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.

Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry - Virtually useless - upgrade your MIC and get the riders instead.

Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...

Spartiates - Solid killers, but they are expensive, and you have to have a level 5 MIC in Sparta to get them. In contrast, the Level 4 elite hoplites (I forget their name) that you get from the other Greek cities are simply better. That is what makes the Spartans (slightly) disappointing.

Galatian Wild men - Like the Spartans, they are disappointing only when compared to their peers. The Geseatae (spelling) are more powerful and have better morale. I was disappointed that the Galatians were not their equal.

East Coast Levies - From Arabia - they seem to match their opponents in stats, but their morale is so low that their inevitable rout after suffering 5% casualties will probably take the rest of your army with them. Use these guys for Garrison duty where they will have to fight to the death. Never take them on an offensive campaign.

Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.

Those are some controversial choices for "bad" units, but relative to my expectations of their capabilities, I found each of these units to be disappointing.

[Beefy187]

How can you not like the Spartiates? They're Spartans!!

My surprisingly bad unit is catapults... I just find them too expensive and too slow..

[Havok.]

My surprisingly bad unit is catapults... I just find them too expensive and too slow..

don' like catapults either, they be vereh ugly indeed, i like more the vanilla catapults, but hey, i wont argue with the EB team for that:2thumbsup:

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

As Getai I have a nice way of protecting drapnai until I can make enough money to recruit Dacian phalanxes into my field armies. I have groups of horse-archers raid enemy stacks and destroy missile units. The enemy usually never replaces them.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

About wild men being weaker than gaesetae? Is the unit guide wrong? They seem identical. They're awesome as part of a Getai stack. The enemy is hacked by falxes and scared by the naked guys on methamphetimines. They once took a facefull of thorakitai javelins and beat them with their own spears. 3 casualities to 80 kills.

[Irishmafia2020]

About wild men being weaker than gaesetae? Is the unit guide wrong? They seem identical. They're awesome as part of a Getai stack. The enemy is hacked by falxes and scared by the naked guys on methamphetimines. They once took a facefull of thorakitai javelins and beat them with their own spears. 3 casualities to 80 kills.

The wild men have 1 less defense, and 2 less morale than the Gaesetae... the difference is not very much, and they are both complete bad @sses, but I was disappointed when I found out that the Galatians were slightly weaker, hence the above post...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Threads like this make me smile. :grin:

[Irishmafia2020]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!
tell me about it... those armored elephants cost a fortune, but having faced them myself, I can attest that normal skirmishers will not do the usual trick against them. On the same subject, I lost several crushing defeats against Pyrrhos at the beginning of my current KH campaign because he kept flanking me out the forest with the elephants. When I finally killed the bastards in a bad loss (for me -I rarely lose) I thought that it was worthwhile trade. I sent a spy to Pyrrhos' army and the elephants had all completely healed from the battle... He had a full complement! Bad enough that they can be unkillable, but worse that they are resurrected from the dead!

[Tyrfingr]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_triarii.gif

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

[konny]

I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

There are no units with three weapons in EB1 (impossible with the RTW engine). The Camillan Principes have underhand spears as secondary weapon and are much weaker in close combat than the Camillan Triarii, who are by far the best unit for the Romans in that periode beside the Extraordinarii.

[Limbs]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_triarii.gif

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

I have to disagree with you on that one. They proved to be the invaluable against both Carthage and the gauls. They can hold the line long enough for a flanking move or something of that sort. They are the only capable unit available early on fpr the romans. The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. And after a few hard battles they can be retrained to become invinsible. They can't be bought straight away since they are a tad expensive, but after one or two conquered cities they should find a place in your army.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.

The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.


Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.

They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.


Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...

The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".


Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.

Haven't used those guys much, can't say much there.

[Havok.]

I dont like Casse CHARIOTS! i hate those things!
><'

[Irishmafia2020]

The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.

I stand corrected. When I closely inspected the unit documentation, I saw that the Median cav have 1 point more in defensive skill and 1 point more in morale, making them slightly better than the Asian medium cav.



They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.

Yes I agree that this unit is actually a good, useful unit rather than "surprisingly bad". I placed it on my list only because i think that their cost is high. I use this unit myself, and they are able to do double duty as a tough melee medium cavalry as well as being horse archers with staying power. My comment is based upon a campaign in which i would recruit a lot of Dahae riders because they are cheap and effective. It was much more cost effective to use the riders, which made the Baktrian HA's much less useful than they should have been in my mind.



The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".


Good explanation. If the Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are supposed to be the better cav unit, then I was not making a fair comparison. I was just so excited to capture Rhegion and build up my barracks so that I would have exclusive access to an "elite" western cavalry unit, when they turned out be just decent rather than truly bad@ss, I was disappointed. That is why i put them on my list.

[johnhughthom]

The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. .


I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.

[Dutchhoplite]

They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_camillan_eqvites.gif https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_polybian_eqvites.gif

Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.

So true :(

I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...

[QuintusSertorius]

I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.

Indeed, I was a little surprised at the statement. Properly supported in the checkerboard formation, Camillian troops very rarely rout, as long as the general is still alive. They may not have the morale of Polybian troops, but they're not flaky by any means.

I too often had big losses amongst my hastati, but they'd always hold their ground.



They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.

So true :(

I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...

I actually never bother recruiting them, personally, I think the bodyguard around a younger FM is a better representation of equites. It's also a smaller unit, generally, which again I think is a better reflection than the recruitable one.

[Fondor_Yards]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/lus_light_curisii.gif

I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.

[Andronikos]

Somebody here mentioned Brihentin. They are not exceptional, but I have very good experience with them. As the Roman cavalry is weak, Brihentin works wonders on them. I used them as Roman FM killers, when fighting on swords in cav vs. cav fights Romans fall like sheep (most of my enemies as a Celtic player were Roman armies). And when charging, Brihentin could rout enemy forces and are good against gaesatae. In the no-cataphract west, they are the best cav. aviable (have not tried German elites yet).

[Strategos Alexandros]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/lus_light_curisii.gif

I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.

Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.

[Sdragon]

Lucanian Infantry
They have small shields and crappy armour so they die in droves. Only have 160 men per unit. Their unit description describes them as a peltest unit but they only carry 2 javelins. Every unit in Italy walks all over these guys.

[Fondor_Yards]

Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.

Exactly, as medium cavalry they fail, you might as well be using Iberi Equites Caetrati for that since they are cheaper and have javelins too.

[AlexanderSextus]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_triarii.gif

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.


Are you kidding me???? ~:eek::jawdrop:These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them. :yes:

On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job? :feedback:

[Olaf The Great]

Are you kidding me???? ~:eek::jawdrop:These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them. :yes:

On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job? :feedback:

I'd say Extraordinarii

[teh1337tim]

I'd say Extraordinarii

id say triarii
pedits tire out too fast for my liking
hell one battle
i lost 3/4 of my hastati and principles to3 reformed pikeman,hyspistia, elite peltastai

they saved my ass taking out all of the peltast,reformed,hetairo, everything

:)

worse united ever...
id say the..

ah yes
who would love the german levy sperman
totally hate them
easy to tire
no armor
killed by every troops that has missles
1 unit rout, everybody routs

:S

[johnhughthom]

I would say pelt the hell out of the Gaesatae with whatever you have, then pin them down with Triarii and get your Principes to attack them from behind.

[Olaf The Great]

For some reason I have a bad experience with the WARGONEZ, they just seem to die like flies and are expensive as hell.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Jumping into the Iberian Curisi conversation - IF I were to peg one Iberian/Lusotannan unit as suprisingly weak for what it is, it would be these guys. They simply don't handle combat AFTER the charge well. For your money, Iberi Equites Caetrati are a better bet. The Iberian Curisi do - however - excel at countering enemy cav skirmishers.
I suppose the question always is - not which unit is bad per se - but have you (as General) figured out HOW to use that unit to the best of it's ability and - more pointedly - does it fit into your overall army.

[Chirurgeon]

I agree with this.

You have got to be joking. Have you read my Lusitann AAR? These guys completely obliterate everything on the battlefield. Their charge is incredible. It is the only reason I have won battles against Kart-Hadast. I charged them down a hill into a unit of kart-Hadast Bodyguards and they killed everyone in the charge! I have used them to bulldoze the rear of a unit trying to flank my main battle line. My real pride is slamming into the rear of some elite African Pikemen, causing them to route. I say all this but there is a word of warning. Do not use them to pursue fleeing enemies. You also have to give them time to rest between charges. You can't just move them all over the place. You have to use their incredible weight and momentum appropriately. Even if the first charge does not cause a rout the second or third is guaranteed to. There is nothing I have encountered in the Western part of the map that even comes close. I mix some medium cavalry with them so that when the enemy flees I send the med cav after the broken enemy and rest my brutes for another go at the enemies ass

[Tellos Athenaios]

For some reason I have a bad experience with the WARGONEZ, they just seem to die like flies and are expensive as hell.

Reserve them for enemy bodyguards. Suddenly they're pretty badass. Missile fire is pain, though.

[Olaf The Great]

Oh and the Sacred band phalanx is pretty bad too, they're swords are awful compared to the Liby-Pheonician unit, and they have AP axes and the exact same stats.

[Cambyses]

Most of the bad units are the cheap and nasty ones that we expect to be. Like Greek archers or Celtic levies.

To my mind everything has its place if used well, but there are some troops that are suprisingly weak or inefficient in comparison to others around them. Top of that list for me is Iberian Medium Infantry as they are only marginally better than the Light Infantry for a lot bigger cost and are the same price as the Heavy Infantry which are stronger statswise.

Again, any type of artillery is rubbish value for money - and there are some pretty useless ship types out there as well, starting with the Trireme.

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

I don't know if it's been built into the mod/game, but when the pirate fleets that was docked for decades of france deicded to sweep through the med, I sent my massive fleets of Quinqrieme and Quadriemes to defeat them and low and behold my Navies were sent to the bottom of the sea. Then when my backup fleets of Triremes and liburnes came they managed to hand the pirates their a**es to them. And then the greatest shock, a pentecontarii or whatevers it's called and a trireme defeat 10:1 odds to win....and then a larger fleet came for revenge which annoyed me.

For that reason I suggest Quadremes and Quinqremes. Giant wastes of money. You'd be better of with liburnes which seem to cut through any fleet and are half the upkeep and quicker to build.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't know if it's been built into the mod/game, but when the pirate fleets that was docked for decades of france deicded to sweep through the med, I sent my massive fleets of Quinqrieme and Quadriemes to defeat them and low and behold my Navies were sent to the bottom of the sea. Then when my backup fleets of Triremes and liburnes came they managed to hand the pirates their a**es to them. And then the greatest shock, a pentecontarii or whatevers it's called and a trireme defeat 10:1 odds to win....and then a larger fleet came for revenge which annoyed me.

For that reason I suggest Quadremes and Quinqremes. Giant wastes of money. You'd be better of with liburnes which seem to cut through any fleet and are half the upkeep and quicker to build.

I guarantee that's more a feature of your campaign difficulty (which skews auto-calc) than the quality of the ships.

[teh1337tim]

remember liburines and those other ships were made by wrecked pirate ships and remade 2 be superior
in the text it describes them as wrecked pirate ships converted to hunt pirates
so usually it does its juob
quinquiremes and quadririmes are just giant battle rams that can own any conventional ship
pirate ships arent conventional btw XD

[strategos roma]

dahae skirmisher calvary i think is pretty awful. limited ammo and horrible at melee. also median medium calvary. you'll be far better off using prodomoi and indo-iranians instead. also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive. oh, and theurophoi become useless once the game goes on for sometime. they can't really hold a line and isn't too good at flanking, which should be their speciality. i found out that a unit of levy hoplites can actually break them in battle, which shouldn't have happened. also chariots are destructive but easy to kill. learny that the hard way against parthia.

[QuintusSertorius]

In fairness to Thureophoroi, they can hold a flank. Note, not the centre of the line, but the flank.

[Che Roriniho]

I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.

Just excellent.

[QuintusSertorius]

I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.

Just excellent.

I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.

[Tollheit]

I dont like Casse CHARIOTS! i hate those things!
><'
I absolutely love them. I have won some beautiful heroic victories with nothing but 2 Casse FM. Don't drive them into your enemy; tire him first, then drive them through the enemy. Repeatedly.

[Fondor_Yards]

I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.

Thrakian Prodromoi's secondary sword isn't ap, just a good old regular one.


also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive.

What? Rhodes is basically THE center of the map, it's good which ever way you start invading. And they have the highest range of ANY missile unit at 224. The only thing with more range is artillery. Combine that with 4 ap attack and they destroy everything, they are more then worth the cost.

[strategos roma]

yeah, but when you're playing as the romans and trying to expand into persia, then retraining them becomes a problem.

[Fondor_Yards]

I'm using them as my missile units in my Pontus campaign, in my armies fighting in the same area as you, without any real problems. After healing they normally take few to no causalities. Even if you do, simply march coast and ship them back home with a small navy. If your admirals are decent at all they should be back in Syria by the end of the year.

[Intranetusa]

One of the worst units ever is the Pontus mercenary spearmen - weak, low attack, low armor, and fairly expensive to train/upkeep.

But I still use them anyways. Why? Because there aren't any other 'plentiful' mercenaries available in those regions, and I need all the troops I can get to beef up my ranks in order to fight off the endless waves of
the silver death. >_<

Thus, basically every unit in EB has its purpose.

[Che Roriniho]

yeah, but when you're playing as the romans and trying to expand into persia, then retraining them becomes a problem.

They're missile units. If you loose any, you're not using them right. They outrafge anything, so they shouldn't be hit my missiles, and getting them caught in melee is silly frankly.

[machinor]

Hm. Not really "bad" per se, but I don't use Thorakitai that much. I usually prefer Thureophoroi, since they can fulfill the same role in my military doctrine (flanking, guarding flanks, street slaughter) quite as good and cost less. Thorakitai are excellent for storming or defending walls and the above mentioned roles, but I was a bit disapointed that they did not seem to hold lines that much better than Thureophoroi, which was what I planned to use them for (imitation legionaires if you will).

Apart from that... there are no real suprisingly disappointments that come to my mind.

[Che Roriniho]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_iphikratous_hoplitai.gif

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

[teh1337tim]

they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
what i recommend with these is to use them as medium spearmen/infantry since they WILL switch to swords on contact but actaully quite decent against calvalry, just make sure u got some hoplitai of some sort

[Tollheit]

they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
Which is why I restored this unit to its former glory version in my game...

[Che Roriniho]

Which is why I restored this unit to its former glory version in my game...

How did you do this?

[Tollheit]

First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.

[Che Roriniho]

First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.

Ok, ta.

[Rodrico Stak]

I agree that Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry are quite bad. I tried to use them as part of my army when as Baktria I had to fight the Saka Rauka. However, before they could do reach any enemies (I sent them after the enemy foot archers), they were killed by missile fire. Every single one of them. They didn't even have time to rout. :embarassed:

[Tollheit]

They are great against elephants, though.

[strategos roma]

I'm using them as my missile units in my Pontus campaign, in my armies fighting in the same area as you, without any real problems. After healing they normally take few to no causalities. Even if you do, simply march coast and ship them back home with a small navy. If your admirals are decent at all they should be back in Syria by the end of the year.

The parthian horse archers killed over half of them every time and the ptolemies smashed my fleet.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I agree that Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry are quite bad. I tried to use them as part of my army when as Baktria I had to fight the Saka Rauka. However, before they could do reach any enemies (I sent them after the enemy foot archers), they were killed by missile fire. Every single one of them. They didn't even have time to rout. :embarassed:


They are great against elephants, though.

Agree with Rodrica Stak. Tollheit, you'd be better off using Arachosian Skirmisher cav than these guys. They get a little better missile attack, a bit more armor, and, most importantly, more ammo. IMHO, anything the Dahae Sk. can do, Arachosians can do better.

[Tollheit]

While I agree with you on the overall crappiness of Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad, I have to contest your asessment on the following points:

- Arachosians do not have more ammo. They have 14 javelins, as do the Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad
- Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad have slightly better range (I'm a huge fan of range)
- most importantly for a unit with limited purpose, the Dahae are cheaper.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I stand corrected. I must have read the info on the unit compare tool wrong. I see looking at it now that the Dahae actually have 10 javelins as opposed to 8 (might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?), however (if the unit compare tool is correct), the Arachosians do have higher lethality in their primary weapon (1 as opposed to .35). So yeah, my bad.

That said, I still do like the Arachosians a bit better. I've just had better luck using them. The way I take the Indian settlements is with a single purpose built army which receives no reinforcement. The problem I have with the Dahaes is that they (for me) don't last until the end of the campaign, while the Arachosians seem to kill much quicker and don't get banged up nearly as badly, and more importantly, they stay alive to kill elephants in all 3 Indian settlements. But I do agree on your price assessment though.

[Tollheit]

(might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?)

I suppose so, since my EDU file says they have 14 ammo both. Either that, or I have acquired a serious vision impairment.

Edit: For secondary weapon lethality, it says 0.165 for both in the EDU (+armour piercing), so yes, something is amiss here.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Well, then I'd have to assume that you're correct, since the EDU is the final word on unit stats. D'oh, I guess that means I have to poke around the EDU every time I want the real scoop on units. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Lysimachos]

Several things are not up to date in the unit compare/unit list. For example the Toxotai Kretikoi's stats differ significantly from the EDU.

[Fondor_Yards]

The parthian horse archers killed over half of them every time and the ptolemies smashed my fleet.

Thats why you put some cheap units/heavily armoured units up in front of the rest of your men as arrow fodder when fighting HA armies. As for the navies, if your Rome that far east you should be crazy rich and be able to build better and bigger navies then them.

[Thermal]

from the factions ive played so far id say the elephants are a big let down, 3250(ripoff!) of upkeep 4 a crap unit tht runs amok in almost any situation, also agree with the first post, them equite ares quite expensive and compared to my barbarian oppoants when playing, they dont do much damage at all...not impressed with the roman bodyguard unit either, javalin cavarly tht once in melee get massacred...

[QuintusSertorius]

I stand corrected. I must have read the info on the unit compare tool wrong. I see looking at it now that the Dahae actually have 10 javelins as opposed to 8 (might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?), however (if the unit compare tool is correct), the Arachosians do have higher lethality in their primary weapon (1 as opposed to .35). So yeah, my bad.

Unit Compare is wrong in places; it's not been updated since 0.8x or so.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Unit Compare is wrong in places; it's not been updated since 0.8x or so.

Thanks QuintusSertotius, that would most certainly explain why the info is wrong. I'll just look to the EDU from now on when I want to look up unit stats.

[SwissBarbar]

i must defend the Thessalian Heavy Cavalry .

Greeks are known for their infantery, they have some of the best. Everything that ist NOT heavy infantery ist thought to be auxiliar force. Make a battleline of Greek Phalangitai, flank them with heavy hoplitai and you have a battleline wich is not easily broken. Let the enemy have a tought time on that line. BEHIND that line you can station lighter troops and your Thessalian Heavy Cavalry . When the enemy gets more and more tired and fights without breaking your line, then use the cavalery to outflank them an crush as hard as possible in the enemys back.


and then see them run ;) no one will survive, because your cavallery is fast


if correctly used, the Thessalian Heavy Cavalry is a good supplement for your heavy infantery force and with its help you can crush an enemy army and defeat it completely (if you just use your heavy infantery, many enemys may survive when they flee, because your infantery ist zu slow to catch them).

[QuintusSertorius]

Thrakian Prodromoi are available in the same regions as Thessalians, and are much better value for money. Same impact on charge, similar melee ability (though if you're leaving your cavalry in melee, you're doing something wrong).

[konny]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_iphikratous_hoplitai.gif

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

Historicaly they used longer spears than the Hoplites, what would be the short_pike. Unfortuantly this one happenes to be shorter than the light_spear the Hoplites use in EB. There are some ways to make them a bit more usefull:

- Give them the phalanx ability and the long_pike and make them a unit like the Makedonian phalanx. That wouldn't be historical correct because the Maks actually used a spear even longer than that of the Iphikratians.

- Give them the same stats as Peltasts in armour and defense (in fact they are Peltasts armed with spears instead of javelins), keep the upkeep to that of the Hoplites but raise the number of men per unit Iphikratians to 200 instead of 160 to represent them being better available than classical Hoplites (Iphikratians would be mercenaries, while Hoplites would be middle-class militia). A "modern" Greek army would then be lots of Iphikratians with some Peltasts, no Hoplites.

[Dumbass]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

Also Gaeroas are terrible.

[Rodrico Stak]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

I don't agree with that. I used Bruttian Infantry extensively to fight rebels as the Romani (built a level 4 government in Taras), and they did more damage than the Hoplitai who were part of the same army.

[gamegeek2]

Frankly, I actually like Theurophoroi, as they're basically Hoplites with javelins. Sure, they're not as resilient as hoplites, but have good stamina and beat up most things with the same cost. Replace them with Thorakitai if you can, but I like having 1-2 in my Epeirote fullstax to deal with weaker units and to flank without wasting much stamina. They're consistent, reliable, and efficient, especially if you're on a budget.

Gaeroas are actually decent spam-troops for your frontier provinces as Rome and some other factions. However, like many early barbarian troops, they're extremely vulnerable to missiles, and if they're flanked, they will die. They're good at defending cities if you have no other options.

[SwissBarbar]

Thrakian Prodromoi are available in the same regions as Thessalians, and are much better value for money. Same impact on charge, similar melee ability (though if you're leaving your cavalry in melee, you're doing something wrong).

yes, but they are still not suprisingly bad, they were just used the wrong way ^^

[QuintusSertorius]

yes, but they are still not suprisingly bad, they were just used the wrong way ^^

Given they're poorer than lighter cavalry in precisely the role they're supposed to be doing (shock charge to rear of engaged infantry), that's surprisingly bad.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Given they're poorer than lighter cavalry in precisely the role they're supposed to be doing (shock charge to rear of engaged infantry), that's surprisingly bad.
No they are not. Thessalians last longer in melee.

You could be a surprisingly bad general, maybe that's the reason for your problems.

[QuintusSertorius]

No they are not. Thessalians last longer in melee.

You could be a surprisingly bad general, maybe that's the reason for your problems.

If you're wasting your cavalry in melee, then I'd say that's bad generalship. That's what spearmen are for, to butcher enemy cavalry stupid enough to stay still.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

If you want to annihilate a unit of slingers for example, do you really re-charge your cavalry at them? In such a case the negative effect of the horsies getting tired and inevitably losing men in the retreat is worse than the few casualties taken for letting them stay in melee. Of course you can't run Thessalians headlong into a wall of spears. You can't do that with Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi either. Thessalians are just in the middle between Hetairoi and Prodromoi.

[QuintusSertorius]

If you want to annihilate a unit of slingers for example, do you really re-charge your cavalry at them? In such a case the negative effect of the horsies getting tired and inevitably losing men in the retreat is worse than the few casualties taken for letting them stay in melee. Of course you can't run Thessalians headlong into a wall of spears. You can't do that with Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi either. Thessalians are just in the middle between Hetairoi and Prodromoi.

No, I've got slingers and archers to annihilate enemy slingers with. That's the kind of target my long-rangers are tasked with. Indeed if I see slingers, they get the focus of my slingers like nothing else, since all other enemy ranged troops are relatively harmless for my main line.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Indeed if I see slingers, they get the focus of my slingers like nothing else, since all other enemy ranged troops are relatively harmless for my main line.

Definitely so. It's surprising how much a humble unit of slingers can ruin a battle for you. Being the cheapest unit in EB, they are also one of the most effective. Running them down with cavalry is not always the best option, nor is it always possible to do so. In general, EB cavalry is not good for taking on an entire unit by themselves and destroying the unit in melee, even if it is a missile unit. I normally use archers to target enemy slingers, since the archers I hire have longer-range weapons than the slingers. Cretan archers and many other composite-bow archers have much longer range that allows them to decimate the slingers while keeping away from their murderous volleys of bullets. If you are using your own slingers for counter-fire, be careful, the enemy have the same range and are likely to make you bleed just as much.

[LordCurlyton]

Maybe over my time of playing EB I've had a different EDU set, but the fact that Thessalians are getting ragged on is odd to me. They WILL beat Traikioi Prodromoi 1:1, I can attest to that, but it will hurt. Both units are badass, in any case. Thessalians also can last a long time in melee and will break no/low-armor missile units on their own if you choose to waste them for such. I loved using Thessies as FM killers, esp once they chevroned. Since you shouldn't be charging any elite infantry with cav short of catas IMO (though lancer types like Prodromoi do for a poor man's solution) the Thessies should be more then able to hold in a melee against the medium and lesser infantry, esp if they do a proper flank assault.
As for slingers, love 'em, but I don't worry about them as long as I have a balanced army. Either I'll get some light cav around to slice and dice or I will pound them with my protedcted archers (not slingers) and let my heavy inf take the occasional casualty from slinger fire. MY slingers target heavy cav/FM, heavy inf, and HA's in that order. Unless I flank with the slingers phalanxes and large shields are generally avoided. Love getting them behind phalanxes though.
I can't say as I've ever met a truly surprisingly bad unit, though some have not lived up to the hype I read on the forums. Thraikioi Peltasti come to mind, as do Gaesetae, which are frankly NOT THAT HARD TO KILL if you are smart about it. The Thraikes, well, the hype made them to be an uber-peltast. As I found it to be, they are better than the standard variety, but not by that much. In fact, they seemed to take cavalry charges worse than normal peltasts (yes, i know, shouldn't be letting it happen but sometimes you just gotta line 'em up and take the licks when you haven't had the chance to refill the army) though they are a notch above in melee ability. Nothing to write home about but i do recruit them in both regular and merc form when I in those areas. I just prefer the standard peltast's vast recruitment area.
And that is the best part of EB; you can call a unit bad if you want but that's mainly because it doesn't fit your generalship style. And those badass units tend to be hard to recruit whereas main units are wide in area. It all balances out. I will go with the anti-elephant crowd though. Even the armored ones don't faze me since I'll just rout the rest of their army first and gang bang the eles. And Velites are just plain depressing for me; I'll hire peltasts instead.

[QuintusSertorius]

There are some objectively bad units in this thread. If they can't perform in the role they're designed for, they're bad. Doesn't matter that there might be some kind of exploit or trick you can use to make them effective.

[satalexton]

sometimes they're gd for their cheapness, quantity is a quality of it's own =3

[Onehandstan]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/alps/rebel_appea_gaedotos.gif
Appea Gaedotos may not be particularly expensive but they really don't live up to their stat line.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

No, I've got slingers and archers to annihilate enemy slingers with. That's the kind of target my long-rangers are tasked with. Indeed if I see slingers, they get the focus of my slingers like nothing else, since all other enemy ranged troops are relatively harmless for my main line.
Yes I've got archers to annihilate enemy slingers with in the first place. But not in that particular army with that I was marching against Kyrene, the odd left Ptolemaioi settlement, whereas the rest of the army (with all my archers) had to do more serious stuff. And indeed Thessalians are an awesome cavalry force.

Can Epeiros recruit Thessalikoi?

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes I've got archers to annihilate enemy slingers with in the first place. But not in that particular army with that I was marching against Kyrene, the odd left Ptolemaioi settlement, whereas the rest of the army (with all my archers) had to do more serious stuff. And indeed Thessalians are an awesome cavalry force.

Can Epeiros recruit Thessalikoi?

No idea, I'm outside of homeland provinces anyway, so they're mercenary-only.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I had an interesting battle tonight. My cavalry forces were 110 Hetairoi, including bodyguards, 95 Thessalians and 85 Thraikioi Prodromoi. The enemy's cavalry were 65 Hetairoi bodyguards, 100 Hippeis Hellenikoi and 100 ordinary Prodromoi. I took the offensive and charged the enemy Prodromoi with my Thracians. I thought it would be an easy win, since my Thracians are 2 points better statwise in both attack and defense. Both forces were not tired. But the enemy slaughtered all my Thraikioi! I was really shocked, I only managed to kill approx. 40 of them.

In the meantime my Thessalians had attacked their Hippeis. Taking about 5 losses, they killed all the Hippeis (with help of some Hetairoi). They were exhausted, but I let them hurry and line up again to help out the Thraikians. But it was too late. The enemy Prodromoi had already routed my Thraikians and chased them down. I told my Thessalians to attack them nevertheless, and guess... They completely annihilated the foe, taking another 2 losses only. Without help of some Hetairoi. Yeah, these are Thessalians.

Will provide screenshots if you don't believe it.

[teh1337tim]

thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

[NeoSpartan]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered



Brihentin

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_cavalry_brihentin.gif

For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee... :grin:

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

[QuintusSertorius]

thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

If they're not shock cavalry, what's the point in them? That's what heavy cavalry is for.

Even moreso when medium cavalry like Thrakian Prodromoi (or even lights like Curepos) can perform admirably in that very role.

[Celtic_Punk]

Quintus, I am in TOTAL agreement with you. My Spartan campaign was drumming along well, I had united the Ionia, Lesbos, Crete, Chalkis, and the pelopenese. Moving up to delphi, i found i was without cavalry and this was a dire problem, as i needed a mobile force to combat the threat of flanking makedonian cavalry. I read thessalians were bitchin' in most of my history books on Greek warfare. This simply was not the case. By the second charge they would be either winded or tired. what bloody use is that to me? I pressed on without changing my army composition and in a crucial battle south of pella with the majority of Greek and Makedonian forces taking part they really let me down.

Makedonia had 2 fullstacks each with a FM, I had one composed of 1FM(non spartan bodyguards) 1 wing of Thessalonians, 3 spartans, 4 classic hoplites and a unit of creten archers.

I destroyed the first stack with negligible casualties, I put a unit of spartans in my centre and they tore a hole through their phalanx and caused total chaos up their line. My thessalians charged the gap got through with 4 casualties and i brought them round and smashed their right (my left) rear flank. i rinsed repeated on the left flank. they were very tired by this point, but their work had been already done and the entire army was put into flight. each hoplite unit took only a handful of casualties and only the centre spartans took 2 casualties. Had the spartans not caused such hell the engagement would have taken a larger toll and those thessalians would have had to fight much longer.

I formed up and began marching towards the 2nd army, we met halfway between the first engagement and the edge of the map. I attmepted the same tactic as they had the same army pretty much except they had shittier phalanx troops. the cretans finished up their ammo and did a littlebit of damage. lines met up, and we were winning, but this time no punch through the centre. I decided to flank since his FM was trying to push through to the left of the centre spartans. the thessalians numbering 92 men (whom rested back to fresh) moved round the right and smashed into their left (our right) rear flank and were decimated. the levy phalangites were tired and were wavering, numbering less than 200 men. I pulled them out after i saw the first 10 go down, in their retreat they lost another 15 or so. Makedonia's FM withdrew from the line and as i tried to save my cavalry they caught up with them because they were so freakin tired and were butchered without killing a single man. the FM then pulled a flanking move and hammered my right flank, which consequentially collapsed. the spartans (this battle actually restored my faith in them) in the centre held as they got surrounded, and i moved the left flank ones and my FM to the right side and held the makeonians in a V shape with the centre spartans on the point. the rest of the classical hoplites broke and my FM and spartans were surrounded. my FM was was killed and the rest fought on to the death.

thessalian cavalry can kiss my shiney gaelic ass.

i also hearby retract what i said a few weeks back about Spartan Hoplites.

EDIT: Quintus what is the best Greek/Makedonian medium cavalry force that I can recruit. as i stated earlier i need someone who can kill makedonian cavalry, or at least hold their own.

[QuintusSertorius]

EDIT: Quintus what is the best Greek/Makedonian medium cavalry force that I can recruit. as i stated earlier i need someone who can kill makedonian cavalry, or at least hold their own.

Truth be told, the late Makedonian FMs are tanks. You're best avoiding putting any horse near them at all, and focusing on killing them with spearmen.

If you must get in close, the only thing you can do is get some cavalry who are good with their swords, because the AI is almost always too stupid to switch from the primary lance. That means you'll kill them much faster. I've watched the much weaker Epirote Mossolon Agema bodyguard butcher a larger group of Makedonian Hetairoi bodyguard just because I was using swords and they were still using lances. However I don't think I've faced their heavier, reformed ones.

As to what cavalry is there, not a lot to be honest. Thrakian Prodromoi are around, but they're not as great in melee. You could always just swamp them with Illyrian Hippeis - put two units of them on one FM.

Can you recruit Lonchophoroi? They're medium-heavies and have AP swords. Failing that, get a level 5 regional barracks and recruit Hellenistic Mercenary Generals. They're pretty tough, and decent stamina.

[Celtic_Punk]

hmmm would recruiting merc generals be historically accurate?


new epic fail unit- Casse chariots and their first skirmisher cavalry. totally useless at everything. Chariots have their uses but more times than not, they feck everything up. both are hellishly expensive!

[QuintusSertorius]

hmmm would recruiting merc generals be historically accurate?

They're a specifically Greek unit, a pressure valve for noblemen with nothing to do. I'd say they are.

[Fondor_Yards]

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

The reason I see most people not liking Brihentin is because they think they will be elite heavy cavalry like their description says, use them like that and are disappointed. But look at their stats, and they are more like very heavy medium cavalry*if there is such a thing*. Think of them and use them like you would medium cavalry, and you won't be disappointed *at least I'm not.* Also he said they were "a bit underpowered," not that they sucked.



Truth be told, the late Makedonian FMs are tanks.

Hm? The only Successor faction to get reformed bodyguards is Baktria. You don't have to worry about them getting even heavier bodyguards.


thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

Yea, they kinda are shock cavalry, their job in battle is/was to charge the enemy's flank to route them. If that's not shock cavalry I don't know what is. And how is that last line helpful in the least?



Also to Centurio Nixalsverdrus: Yes Epeiros can recruit them too.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hm? The only Successor faction to get reformed bodyguards is Baktria. You don't have to worry about them getting even heavier bodyguards.

In that case, Makedonian ones are easily beaten if you've got reasonably well-armoured, sword-armed cavalry. Because I've managed that one time and again with the much lighter Epirote bodyguard. Course having a lance-armed unit who can charge in and out of the melee while the sword-cavalry pin them in place helps, too. Generally though, I let them whittle their numbers down charging pointlessly against my lines first.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

LOL. It's quite surprising how the benefits of Thessalian Cavalry reveal themselves to the one but not to the other. Quintus, you never really used Thessalian Cavalry. At best you hired a single mercenary unit without any upgrades or experience (logically, cause you don't own Thessalia in your game I presume) and compared it to your battle hardened fully chevroned Thraikioi. You think that Makedonians get another type of bodyguard unit. It's pointless to further discuss that matter with you cause obviously you don't have any significant knowledge about Hellenistic Cavalry in EB. You are the Roman guy, why not just stick to them Romans?

[Fondor_Yards]

Erm, if you look at his sig you'd see his last 2 campaigns are as Eperios...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Erm, if you look at his sig you'd see his last 2 campaigns are as Eperios...
"Epeiros as Pergamon", to be precise.

[Fondor_Yards]

Exactly, which cavalry would he be using then.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Most likely lots of Thraikioi Prodromoi, but no Thessalians. And while he frequently used those Thraikians, he encountered the notorious Makedonian Reformed Bodyguards, which we all fear for our lives when we get to see them. Unfortunately, he is so convinced now that arguments don't reach him. You can say "I experienced this frequently", and "look at the stats", he'll always find an argument to say that Thessalians are bad. Go with Equites Romani instead I say.

[QuintusSertorius]

LOL. It's quite surprising how the benefits of Thessalian Cavalry reveal themselves to the one but not to the other. Quintus, you never really used Thessalian Cavalry. At best you hired a single mercenary unit without any upgrades or experience (logically, cause you don't own Thessalia in your game I presume) and compared it to your battle hardened fully chevroned Thraikioi. You think that Makedonians get another type of bodyguard unit. It's pointless to further discuss that matter with you cause obviously you don't have any significant knowledge about Hellenistic Cavalry in EB. You are the Roman guy, why not just stick to them Romans?

Go have a look at either of my Pergamon AARs to see me using Thessalians (early on when I overestimated how effective they might be, based on their stats and their cost). See how poor they are. See me butchering Makedonian FMs with Epirote FMs and Thrakian Prodromoi. See that I actually know how to use my cavalry, as well.

I use Curepos, Illyrian Hippeis, Thrakian Prodromoi, Eastern Light Cavalry, Hellenistic Mercenary Generals and Epirote FMs to great effect. The only ones out of that lot who aren't mercenary for me are the Eastern Lights. We're not comparing apples with oranges, Thessalians are mercenary for me too.

So I don't pay much attention to the progression of factions I have no interest in playing, big deal. Still remains that I've killed their FMs with ease.

[Celtic_Punk]

plus Quintus is not the only one here who has said they've been let down on more than one occasion by thessalians

[Ludens]

I hate to admit this, but I think Thessalians underpowered as well. Stat-wise Prodromoi offer the same charge value and better stamina at 75% of the cost. Thessalians do better at close-combat, but not that much, and it isn't what cavalry are meant for. The only use I can imagine for Thessalians is to engage and pin enemy heavy cavalry: here they can use their speed, armour and AP side-arm to best effect. However, they do suffer a lot of casualties in the process so you can only do this in a couple of battles before needing reinforcements. Hetairoi on the other hand do this almost without breaking a sweat, while Prodromoi won't do that much worse and are easier to replace.

[teh1337tim]

it really depend on how you use it and where you use it, hell i usually maintain 1 or 2 in my army along with those thraikens and hetairoi :2thumbsup: ,
it beats anything in greece and can be recruited via merc or from lvl 4 mic so easier to maintain early on, ah well- as long as it beats anything in greece, im good .. then on to other calv in asia :P

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Thessalians - to my experience - do quite much better in close combat because they have an AP-Kopis. They are as swift and agile as Prodromoi, but at the same time better armoured. They cost more though and have a very limited recruitment area, but this has nothing to do with their ability in battle of course.

[Celtic_Punk]

I just put em to the test tonight, I hired 1 Thessalonian cavalry unit, and 1 of those Prodromoi. When flanking and hammering the rear it seems that Prodromoi do not have as great a charge, but they can maintain their morale in a shitty situation and stay fresh for longer. Thessalonians for all that extra armour giving them more weight in their charge, they lose alot more pulling out to repeat, and once they do they have already begun to tire themselves out. Their armour is their burden. They cannot catch lighter cavalry, and when mopping up the enemy they've lost so many troops that they get mobbed by even missile units. Prodromoi have alot more staying power, and when you've got huge unit sizes on and a large number of regiments on each side, you want someone who can stick it out to the end. Thessalonians are just not up to the task. as a reserve cavalry unit that is there to rape infantry/cavalry trying to flank your men, they excel at that. nothing more. But unless you got money to piss away that could be spent on your economy, your not going to need Thessalonians. My advice? save the 7000 and buy yourself a nice market, peace loving marketeers will help your war effort more than these clowns will, because the fact of the matter is, their job can be fufilled by any cavalry force, or even some cheap and dependable theroperuoi (spelling?) at least they have javelins!

[QuintusSertorius]

They are as swift and agile as Prodromoi, but at the same time better armoured.

Not even is this a contradiction in terms, but it's simply untrue. Heavier armour is why they're both slower, and have less stamina. And by the way, we've been talking about the Thrakian Prodromoi throughout, not the regular Hellenistic ones (which aren't as good).

[Ludens]

Thessalians - to my experience - do quite much better in close combat because they have an AP-Kopis. They are as swift and agile as Prodromoi, but at the same time better armoured.

Nope, Thessalians are not as swift and agile as Prodromoi because the latter have improved stamina as well as the same charge. This makes them better at executing repeated shock-charges. Thessalians are superior in close-combat fighting, but they don't exactly excel at it and always seem to take somewhat high casualties in my hands. Prodromoi do even worse, but you don't expect them to do well and they are easy and cheap to replace. Neither of them is suited for close-combat anyway: leave that to the infantry or the likes of Hetairoi.

[Celtic_Punk]

Prodromoi have sooooo much more staying power which is the critical element I think about when choosing cavalry.

Prodromoi have survivability, stamina, and speed

Thessalians have armour and AP.

thanks ill take the guys who will survive a battle or two.

[QuintusSertorius]

Prodromoi have sooooo much more staying power which is the critical element I think about when choosing cavalry.

Prodromoi have survivability, stamina, and speed

Thessalians have armour and AP.

thanks ill take the guys who will survive a battle or two.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only three qualities shock cavalry need: speed, stamina and AP lances.

Which is why Curepos, which are cheap and avaliable almost everywhere in the west and near east, are brilliant value for money.

[Celtic_Punk]

check out the Goidillic cavalry mate, they'll certainly give you a run for your money!


Hellenic native phalanx's(EDIT, I ACTUALLY MEANT SPEARMEN, NOT PHALANX) the ones you find in the East... those guys are worthless! sure they are supposed to be sub-par, but they can hardly fight themselves. ~:joker:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Then you're using them wrong; cause I find they are really, very effective against heavy cavalry; and most infantry of the line too. In the hands of the AI, anything non-phalanx will find themselves very unpleasantly surprised by those guys.

[Celtic_Punk]

oh sorry, i meant spearmen, not phalangitai. the phalangites are quite useful if you cannot afford better trained and equipped phalanx's


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_pantodapoi.gif
these buggers, absolute rubbish... even those freed slaves have done better in a pinch defending walls for me.

[QuintusSertorius]

oh sorry, i meant spearmen, not phalangitai. the phalangites are quite useful if you cannot afford better trained and equipped phalanx's


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_pantodapoi.gif
these buggers

They're awful. What's worse is they're more expensive, and poorer in quality than levy hoplites (haven't checked the 1.1 EDU, but according to the RV, five (!) points of defense and a point of morale).

[||Lz3||]

yeh... tehy can't even stand a chance against parthian horse archers in mele <.<

[Celtic_Punk]

lol at least with those freed slave guys you can mob their cavalry or soemthing. these guys are just wothless and expensive... they dont even do well at sucking up arrows cause they drop like flies, so they are LITERALLY useless

[satalexton]

well wt do u expect out of a bunch of villagers pressed into service, armed with nothing but a pointy stick and a plank call 'shield'?

[Celtic_Punk]

to stick it out like a man, as I said the freed slaves do a better job then these guys do lol and in the description of the slaves it says "INFERIOR TO EVERY OTHER UNIT" they should add in "except Hellenistic native spearmen!"

[satalexton]

dude, the free slave have rocks and BOARDS WITH NAILS. xD

u know anybody armed with a board with nails can repulse even aliens.... >_>

[Lysimachos]

Laugh about them when you face a rebellion of Apeleutheroi with three golden chevrons, golden weapons and armor...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Not even is this a contradiction in terms, but it's simply untrue. Heavier armour is why they're both slower, and have less stamina. And by the way, we've been talking about the Thrakian Prodromoi throughout, not the regular Hellenistic ones (which aren't as good).
Yes, Thraikioi Prodromoi. I just told that story of a battle where my Thraikioi got obliterated by regular Prodromoi, but revenged by worn-out Thessalikoi then, but it seems that things as these only happen to me here.


Nope, Thessalians are not as swift and agile as Prodromoi because the latter have improved stamina as well as the same charge. This makes them better at executing repeated shock-charges. Thessalians are superior in close-combat fighting, but they don't exactly excel at it and always seem to take somewhat high casualties in my hands. Prodromoi do even worse, but you don't expect them to do well and they are easy and cheap to replace. Neither of them is suited for close-combat anyway: leave that to the infantry or the likes of Hetairoi.
OK, perhaps the Thessalians are a bit slower. I didn't exactly measure it. However, I care more about the actual battle performances. Oh and Thraikioi Prodromoi of whom Quintus was speaking are not exactly much better to replace then Thessalians, you basically have to own the same portion of the map / hire scarce mercenaries. Easy to replace are regular Prodromoi and Lonchophoroi Hippeis, as a combination of similar quality, but both are an important tad worse in battle than the aforementioned two.


OK our mutual opinions won't change. But once look at it from the historical perspective please:


It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.
Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.
So basically, order your charge command with thought and pray, as it is the way it would have worked. EB units do not instantly rout normally, so cavalry will most likely need their close combat ability.

So repeated charging has its place in EB tactics, but in reality it is not an option. It is actually an exploit. Use Thessalians for charging at pinned worn-out infantry. Use Hetairoi for charging at pinned worn-out elite infantry or cavalry. Use your Prodromoi and Thraikioi Prodromoi for charging at pinned worn-out unarmoured levies. And better, let your heavy infantry do the blood work.

PS: Has nothing to do with cavalry, but with exploit tactics. Do not move your psiloi around the flanks of your battle line and let them shoot at the enemy's back. This is an exploit as well. Historical psiloi would stand where they were commanded to stand and unleash their volleys, at best. Any confrontation with enemy soldiers would rout them instantaneously.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_pantodapoi.gif
these buggers, absolute rubbish... even those freed slaves have done better in a pinch defending walls for me.
Well, not surprising at all. They are the poor lad from the next village. They work at a day's pay (sorry don't know the correct term), probably are not even free men and are pressed into service with a knock on their head. How would you fight then?

They are a garrison unit, or an emergency unit. However, let your Hetairoi charge them head on and see how much of your nobility gets a dirty death at the hands of a poor analphatet hillbilly.

[teh1337tim]

Hell I put 2 eastern slingres over these guys and eve n the jewish spearmen (forgot name) do better


Lol is it as worse as fighting 16 units of those gold silv slaves with 4 unit of garison troops and the rest fill with merc. After the battle they filled 1 unit slot comfortablly while my merc lost less then 10% of their menm!!!!!!!

[Lysimachos]

Hell I put 2 eastern slingres over these guys and eve n the jewish spearmen (forgot name) do better

The Iudaioi Taxeis are actually very useful, a candidate for surprisingly good units.


It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again.

There is one way: the enemy has a shieldwall that you can't breach and the enemies don't get "mixed" (the battle that spontaneously came to my mind is out of the timeframe, though: Hastings).

But this reminds me of M2TW. For Kingdoms they made some changes (forgot what, played it on another computer some time ago) that made mounted units worthless for frontal charges. In medieval times a head-on charge was a standard tactic but the game negates it :wall:

[Woreczko]

It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.
Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.
So basically, order your charge command with thought and pray, as it is the way it would have worked. EB units do not instantly rout normally, so cavalry will most likely need their close combat ability.



Repeated cavalry charges actually were a standart late medieval and modern tactics in Europe. A cavalry unit would charge infantry and get through or fall back to make place for another line to make their charge. Single soldier (particularly if he was wealthy) could participate in several charges as long as fresh horses (and lances) were available upon his return to the "main line". Of course in ancient times it may have worked different, that I do not know.

[QuintusSertorius]

PS: Has nothing to do with cavalry, but with exploit tactics. Do not move your psiloi around the flanks of your battle line and let them shoot at the enemy's back. This is an exploit as well. Historical psiloi would stand where they were commanded to stand and unleash their volleys, at best. Any confrontation with enemy soldiers would rout them instantaneously.

Well by the line you're taking here, anything that isn't playing on the general cam, with all units under AI control is an "exploit". We can't help how unrealistic the RTW engine is.

Psiloi like peltastai weren't just skirmishers. Often they were lightened hoplites, so using them for aggressive flanking isn't misplaced at all.

[Celtic_Punk]

Yes, I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make Centurio Nixalsverdrus. Infact repeated cavalry charges were a standard tactic, and unlike you said:

Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.

this is untrue, In armies they had a bugler or whatever horn instrument they had at the time who would play a specific tune, note, or series of notes that would signal a withdrawal. of course if your bugler falls then you're buggered but it is likely the general's cavalry wing would not be the first wing to engage unless absolutely necessary.

Also, i doubt (unless the cavalry was in a bloodlust state of mind) they would chase routers till they were all dead allowing the enemy the ability to make a critical flanking manoeuvre. There are accounts of the tide of battle being completely turned because of a brutal error such as that, However this didn't happen alot. and I'm sure a half decent general would have told his cavalry not to make such a mistake.

please keep on topic, and try not to talk out of your ass. this isn't Ace Ventura.

[Ludens]

OK, perhaps the Thessalians are a bit slower. I didn't exactly measure it. However, I care more about the actual battle performances.

I am not sure whether there is a difference in speed between Thessalians and Prodromoi (standard and Thracian). I was talking about their stamina. Thessalians get worn out after a couple of charges. Prodromoi have the hardy-stat, so they lose their battle-effectiveness less quickly.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

this is untrue, In armies they had a bugler or whatever horn instrument they had at the time who would play a specific tune, note, or series of notes that would signal a withdrawal. of course if your bugler falls then you're buggered but it is likely the general's cavalry wing would not be the first wing to engage unless absolutely necessary.
Well, such battles do make a decent noise, and it's impossible to reach your cavalry in a mile's or more distance with the sound of a trumpet or whatever instrument.

Also, i doubt (unless the cavalry was in a bloodlust state of mind) they would chase routers till they were all dead allowing the enemy the ability to make a critical flanking manoeuvre. There are accounts of the tide of battle being completely turned because of a brutal error such as that, However this didn't happen alot. and I'm sure a half decent general would have told his cavalry not to make such a mistake.
Such as Pompey at Pharsalos, Alexander at Issos and Gaugamela? Hannibal did indeed, and it was extraordinary, not the rule, and doubtless impossible with a worse cavarly force than his Iberians (which are underrepresented in EB).


please keep on topic, and try not to talk out of your ass. this isn't Ace Ventura.
Yes, please keep on topic...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well by the line you're taking here, anything that isn't playing on the general cam, with all units under AI control is an "exploit". We can't help how unrealistic the RTW engine is.
Strictly speaking yes, anything else than General's cam is an exploit. The only thing which in RL was better than in the game is that the units would be commanded by human beings which do not need constant babysitting if properly briefed before battle.


Psiloi like peltastai weren't just skirmishers. Often they were lightened hoplites, so using them for aggressive flanking isn't misplaced at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peltastai aren't Psiloi, but lightened Hoplites indeed. Psiloi are really poor people from the slums etc.. Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Toxotai.

[Fondor_Yards]

I think you don't understand what an exploit is. Yes battles aren't 100% accurate, and most likely never will be Just because you can actually tell your units what to do across the map isn't an exploit. Deploying/fighting at the red lines is an exploit.

Also, you don't need to double post every time. There's an edit button.

[Sdragon]

Jewish Spearmen: Do the same job as Hellenic Spearmen, they do it worse, they cost more and the Greeks can be trained either in the same places as the Jews or the town next to them. Not a bad unit per say, but something better is available and more wide spread for less gold.

[Lysimachos]

Jewish Spearmen: Do the same job as Hellenic Spearmen, they do it worse, they cost more and the Greeks can be trained either in the same places as the Jews or the town next to them. Not a bad unit per say, but something better is available and more wide spread for less gold.

You mean the Thureophoroi? The Iudaioi cost slightly more because they are 25 % more men in a unit, also have better morale than the Thureophoroi. These have better armor, a bit more javelin damage, though less range.
I woudn't underestimate the numbers. I use both, but when i'm able to, i take Thorakitai instead of Thureophoroi while i retain the Iudaioi.

[QuintusSertorius]

Strictly speaking yes, anything else than General's cam is an exploit. The only thing which in RL was better than in the game is that the units would be commanded by human beings which do not need constant babysitting if properly briefed before battle.

So why not autocalc all battles then? Seems better than being stuck at ground level not being able to see very much, hoping the retarded AI does what it's supposed to.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peltastai aren't Psiloi, but lightened Hoplites indeed. Psiloi are really poor people from the slums etc.. Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Toxotai.

In any case, I don't use my psiloi in combat. They stand in front of the line, firing until they're out. Then they hide behind the line waiting for a rout. Watch any of my battle reports and you can see how they're used. That's also why they take so few casualties.

[||Lz3||]

I think I'm with Centurio in this one... :sweatdrop:

I also think that once the cav has been sent... it's over , unless you're using really trained guys... but for example... I doubt leuce eppos (sp?) have that order

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I think you don't understand what an exploit is. Yes battles aren't 100% accurate, and most likely never will be Just because you can actually tell your units what to do across the map isn't an exploit. Deploying/fighting at the red lines is an exploit.

Also, you don't need to double post every time. There's an edit button.
I said "strictly speaking". I too don't use General's cam, just because I'm too afraid of using my precious troops to non-thinking computer-officers. Sometimes I even make repeated charges! And sorry that I double-posted twice. ~:0 :inquisitive:


So why not autocalc all battles then? Seems better than being stuck at ground level not being able to see very much, hoping the retarded AI does what it's supposed to.
Autocalc is even more retarded. In autocalc, the computer calculates the battles the same way he fights the real battles: cavalry headlong into the sarissas. You can see that at the ridiculous casualty rates for cavalry units. And I think Thraikioi Prodromoi are fantastic cavalry force btw.


I think I'm with Centurio in this one... :sweatdrop:

I also think that once the cav has been sent... it's over , unless you're using really trained guys... but for example... I doubt leuce eppos (sp?) have that order
¡Finalmente! I began to feel really lonely.... :grin:

[Sarcasm]

I agree with you that Thessalians aren't a bad unit, at all. They have their place in the battle line as do the Prodromoi who are more of an outer wing cavalry, instead of a close flank guard.





It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.





But dude, wtf? You need to read more.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I agree with you that Thessalians aren't a bad unit, at all. They have their place in the battle line as do the Prodromoi who are more of an outer wing cavalry, instead of a close flank guard.
Exactly.


But dude, wtf? You need to read more.
I can't imagine that for the Antique time period. When you get somehow deflected, perhaps, but if once in the middle of the fray in melee? I can't imagine how collecting the combatants and retreat for a new attack would have worked. If you have proof for it, well... it's not that I'm unable to change my mind. :grin:

[Aper]

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...
So, a bit like Hippakontistai type cavalry, or Hetairoi Aspidophoroi.

Anyways I thought about the rinse and repeat issue and have come to the so far conclusion that very elite forces would be certainly able to do so. Like Hetairoi, people with much to lose, a reputation, wealth, social standing. People with very strong ties to the ruling house and a strong warrior codex. But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

[penguinking]

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

lol... a bit of an unfair comparison, considering that Eastern Heavy cavalry and Steppe Kataphract archers are friggin' monsters on the field.

[Senatvs Povlvsqve Romanvs]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_triarii.gif

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

I agree with this.

Camillian Triarii is not bad to face against cavarly, buth Camilian Principes can do just as impressive job as them with less recruiting and upkeep coast.

Do not include them in an army unless they volunteer:laugh4:

[QuintusSertorius]

Camillian Principes don't have swords, units can only have two weapons.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Triarii are better than Principes. I always train Triarii because they take fewer losses. Since the Principes aren't a sword unit, it doesn't really make sense to train them instead of Triarii unless you're very low on money. If Camillian Principes were a sword unit, then you could have some Pricipes in a legion to deal with enemy infantry and some Triarii to deal with cavalry. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to train Principes. Triarii do much better against everything than Principes. If you want a sword and pila unit in the Camillian times, just recruit Hastati.

I didn't think the Roman bodyguard was that bad. I mean, it doesn't compare to the Pahlavan or other nomadic bodyguards as you have said(who have bows in addition to lances) but it's better than many other Western bodyguards.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

Given the cost of maintaining horses it's unlikely that many cavalrymen would be towards the bottom of the income scale. And discipline is hardly an exclusive preserve of the noble class either. It could even be argued that the quest for glory amongst the Hellenistic or Hellenised nobility militated against discipline as they might be more keen to charge, and not want to be seen to retreat. Training, drill and discipline would be as much a result of culture as income.

In any case, I always imagined that the majority of successor troops (barring levies and "tribal" units) are more likely to be professionals or mercenaries than semi-drilled citizens, given the fact that some part of the region or other was at war more or less continuously through the period.

[gamegeek2]

Triarii I think are ridiculous. I'm facing seas of them in my Epeiros campaign (VH/M) and they never seem to run out. They're something like 15 atk/27 def with ~1600 cost. It's insane.

However, I kill every Roman bodyguard I face. They suck, at least compared to other bodyguards.

[Carthaginian General]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_numidian_cavalry.gif

Unlike their real world counterparts, Numidian Cavalry in this game are quite sub-par. They're expensive, and the only thing they've got over footborne skirmishers is their speed. However they're still at a disadvantage compared to them imo. For one, they're much more vulnerable to missile fire. They also don't last nearly as long when you need to put them to use somewhere, and only throw half the amount of javelins of a 100 man unit. Playing as my favorite faction (guess which one it is), two units of Numidian Javelinmen will cost you less than a single unit of Numidian Cavalry and they still have the advantage over the cavalrymen. But then again, I think that non-horse archer skirmisher cavalry in general is useless, they simply don't do enough damage.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.
Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

[Carthaginian General]

Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

Yep, strangely enough... they look good but are garbage in practice. There's much better ways to spend those 3000 mnai, if you ask me. Go ahead, test Iberian Assault Infantry against Ordmalica, and then test the Elite Liby Phoenician Infantry against them. And you're right, they're not meant to absorb much if anything, but they still died surprisingly fast.

[strategos roma]

Thessalians are great because it's easily available in the Balkans. I use them to supplement my generals and Thrakians.

Elephants can be used to destroy calvary and phalangists. Use your calvary to kill of enemy skirmishers first.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thessalians are great because it's easily available in the Balkans. I use them to supplement my generals and Thrakians.

Elephants can be used to destroy calvary and phalangists. Use your calvary to kill of enemy skirmishers first.

Slingers are much more effective at killing off enemy skirmishers than any cavalry.

[Zarax]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

[Carthaginian General]

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

Yeah I'm serious. For something that costs 3000 mnai, you'd expect a unit that is sort of acceptable by the very least, which they are, but in my experience they haven't been useful at all. I might need to try them more but so far, not at all.

[HasdrubalBarca]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.



lol, I've used them extensively and they never disappoint. First through the breach in sieges with wooden walls/ first on the walls vs stone walls they chop basically everything up. They recently pwned some ptolemy agema on the stone walls of paraitionion for me in my Qarthadast campaign. I really think your off base here.

edit: also they are a really good looking unit (as you noted)

[penguinking]

Thessalians tend to tire and die a bit too quickly for my tastes, especially considering how expensive they are. With that said, they're not really a bad unit, as they can be very powerful.

By far the worst unit in the game is Hellenic native spearmen. They simply suck at everything. They die like flies, lose to every unit in melee combat, and rout ridiculously quickly.

As I said before, Romani consular guard cavalry are horrible. They are terrible in melee, their charge isn't that great and they die quickly. And worst of all, they don't look anywhere near as cool as any of the other bodyguards.

[gamegeek2]

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

[penguinking]

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

I would disagree. The Pantodapoi are terrible. They're not even that good at garrison duty. They are utterly useless. They lose to horse archers in melee. And they are spearmen.

And furthermore, while almost every unit, with the obvious exception of Hellenic Native Spearmen, can be decent in ideal situations or in a very narrow role, that doesn't mean they're not a bad unit. I would call a unit bad if it's grossly overcosted, or simply does not perform it's role well. The more I play with them, the more I think Thessalians fall into this category. From my experiences, you can get at most two good charges out of them before they are significantly weakened by fatigue.

[teh1337tim]

penguin, can we drop discussion of thessaslians
we had 2 or 3(?) whole pages of thessalians denouncers vs supporters back last month

pantadopi is good in ideal situations
i mean
im playing rome and took Kyrene in africa (ptolemaio+ carthage at war w/ me)
and i basically got an all hoplite army + pantadopi
my hoplite basically holds the main road and pantadopi the sides
one thing i like them for
i left them on guard mode in a side road (theres 2units)
and while the main army assaults the hoplites
ptolemaic agemas etc attacks them for a full 2 minutes andpantadopi lost half the men but i had archers/slingers/javlins on them and soon.... next thing u know
i routed 2 ptolemaic elite phalanx + 2 agema + klerouchi and a machimo
lost only 70 pantadopi men and gained 2 exp bars
that was the day i decided pantadopi is good... only if u tire them out and have 2 units redy to flank

well they are utterly horible alone in pitched fihgts, but if theyre properly supported, they can be deadly to any units....similar to what happened to the makedonian succesors
lack of support = total defeat and conquer by legions!

[penguinking]

Please adress me as penguinking, not just penguin. :laugh4:

But yes, I will drop the Thessalians. But I will never concede that Pantapodoi can ever be good. I have yet to get over the time I looked at them and thought "Spearmen? Hmmm. They're probably able to beat exhausted and wavering super-light missile cavalry in melee." I was wrong.

[LordCurlyton]

Have you tried guard mode with them? I remember using Pantodopai as Romani pre-Marian and while they weren't world-beaters they would hold an enemy long enough in guard mode. Heck i even beat AI Saba armies with an all-Pantodopai army, though admittedly it was due mainly to the fact that i had 20 units of Panto's and their armies were usually half-stack at best. I would actually have to say that Lugoae rank as really bad, worse than Panto's for me. Even in guard mode they seemed to melt away too much for my liking.
EDIT: And yes, i have beaten HA's with them when they are foolish enough to get into melee. Non-exhausted ones, at that.

[QuintusSertorius]

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

[gamegeek2]

Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

No, I totally agree. I'm just saying they're not so terrible if you have no other options. I still recruit persian archers as garrison over them, and always disband them on sight, and that they get slaughtered by everything.

[penguinking]

Although Pantodapoi don't really qualify for this thread, since they're not a 'surprisingly' bad unit.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

[penguinking]

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

That may be true. I think there are other units that are more cost effective as garrison units, but I'm not sure. But I think this thread is about battlefield performance.

[QuintusSertorius]

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

Levy hoplites; cheaper, better, actually of some use should that garrison actually be called to do something besides loiter around.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

My EDU says that Hoplitai Haploi cost 202 upkeep and 809 recruitment, and for Pantodapoi its 224 upkeep and 896 recruiting them. Given that Pantodapoi have 240 men on *cough* huge scale, the same amount of men of Levy Hoplites would actually cost 303 in upkeep and 1212 in recruitment. Or am I doing something completely wrong here?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Apart from writing 'large' when the scale is called 'hughe'? :grin: No, not really; though you may want to prefer Akontistai at 202 upkeep for 240 men, or Artish Pada at 203 for 240 men.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Apart from writing 'large' when the scale is called 'hughe'? :grin: No, not really; though you may want to prefer Akontistai at 202 upkeep for 240 men, or Artish Pada at 203 for 240 men.
I stand corrected. Funny that I have built Akontistai accidentaly when I wanted to build Pantodapoi quite a few times. But this is because they both wear brown I guess.:grin:

[Onehandstan]

Goidillic noble infantry just don't seem all that special to me, I may be using them wrong but they just beg the image of wading into a melee hacking limbs and heads with every attack and no man can penetrate their shining armour.

[General Appo]

Well, it does seem you have gotten slightly the wrong idea of them. They are indeed great heavy shock infantry, but not that great. Still love charging them in the back of some Gallic levies though. Insta-death.

[gamegeek2]

They're basically Midlander Champions in terms of stats afaik, but available as regionals.

[General Appo]

To be honest, I prefer the Ordmalica (Goidilic Shock Infantry). Or even better, the Eiras attack the enemy from the front, keep them busy and chip away at their numbers while the Ordmalica flank and crash into them from behind with those huge hammers raised on high. Magnificent.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

To resurrect this thread here is a fresh comment:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_hastati.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_polybian_hastati.gif

These fellows are technically worthless compared to their Principes counterparts, yet I keep using them merely for roleplay. Otherwise my sheer battlefield punch wouldn't suffer as now.

[Dumbass]

I have to agree that Hastati go down like flies

[Celtic_Punk]

Until they get some experience... theres a number of units that are really shitty till they get 1 or 2 chevs to their name. Massalians dont hold up well till they get that first chevron, though they are my favourite, I think it has to do with the moral bonus' given when they get experience.

[ajdeignan]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/casse/casse_calawre.gif

These guys are a hinderance to my army. They have no stamina, so tire extremely easy (slowing down the rest of the army). I'm almost tempted to mod the EDU file.

They are 'surprisingly bad' because they are an elite unit (who should be fit), and are expensive

By the way, I love Casse; the varied units, the body paintings, all beautiful.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

The image ain't showing.

[ajdeignan]

Post deleted

[Joszen1]

Hastasi (Camillan) are completely worthless, chevrons or no. Indeed, if they have chevrons they have stolen them unless experience is awarded for not killing anything, dying at the slightest provocation and then running away. If you cannot afford the little bit extra for Principes then your empire is a failure and you should really only be contemplating your next campaign. I hear the point for role-playing, but I just brush it away that in my empire all young men are better trained, outfitted and 'apprenticed' by seasoned warriors than they were historically. Hence no need for Hastasi. Actually I think it is simply a matter of sefl-preservation on vh/vh with a personal 'house' rule that I must re-start a campaign as soon as I lose my first battle (including naval ones). "Bloody Pirates!".

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Actually I think it is simply a matter of sefl-preservation on vh/vh with a personal 'house' rule that I must re-start a campaign as soon as I lose my first battle (including naval ones). "Bloody Pirates!".
Quite ahistorical regarding the character of the Romans.

[gamegeek2]

Hastati are pretty good for their cost, only 1000 or so to recruit.

[Celtic_Punk]

hippes are crap. they are supposed to be... but holy crap they are crap! they do nothing against medium-heavish infantry, and are hopeless against professional hoplites

[Intranetusa]

Almost every unit in EB is useful, even if they suck. I often find myself hiring ridiculously expensive and also absurdly weak Pontus Spearmen when I am desperately in need of men in my excursion into Asia Minor. I guess these bastards have a monopoly on the merc market...so the quality of products they offer declines. >_<

[Joszen1]

@ gamegeek2, I hear you, I was just venting cause I lost a pretty important battle and needed something to blame. As I saw it my Hastati had failed to live up to Roman standards of bravery.

@ Centurio Nixalsverdrus, :shame::embarassed::sweatdrop:, I am ok. Maybe I'm just not a very good general and will never succeed in conquering an entire map without losing a single battle. I hear you on the historicity though, but shouldn't Hastati become Principes -with experience - if everything were true to reality? I am humbled and will start again, making much use of Hastati. I will also write a nice AAR about it so my historical inaccuracies can be further lambasted. (Bear in mind I am a South African so what I know I have found out in on my own time).

@ Intranetusa, indeed, for all things there is a season. But I don't think that is the point of this forum, I think it offers the opportunity for EB players to discuss how they have been seriously surprized (in their own idiocy) and 'let down' by a particular unit. All the units have a purpose because this is a superb, awe-inspiring mod!

[cultist]

Wow,i feel like in Mythbusters.
Keep it coming boys.
*goes to :book:

[Cute Wolf]

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...
I've NEVER seen that. Hippeis are possibly the crappiest cavalry in the game: they can barely rout Akontistai without losses, let alone Hastati.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Overhand-spear cavalry generally sucks. What can you do with them besides chasing routers? Even Asiatikoi Hippeis with their axes suck in comparison to similarly equipped cavalry that uses its spear underhand.

[Ludens]

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...

What battle difficulty are you playing at? Battle difficulty higher than medium gives insane attack bonuses to the A.I., thus completely throwing off units balance. This cannot be modded, unfortunately, so the recommended battle difficulty for EB is medium.

[Cute Wolf]

Medium... just place your hippeis in 2 horse deep formation, in the front of a line full of hastati, charge them, and they'll send half of the hastati flying without wings....:laugh4:

Hastati is only good when you face all-crap infantry line (consists of spearmen), but why bulit hastati if you can get princeps with a bit more investment and maintenence costs?

But now I solve the problem myself, I cut the hastati's wage down to 200, and now they're worhwhile troops...:laugh4:

[Lysimachos]

but why bulit hastati if you can get princeps with a bit more investment and maintenence costs?

Why training them? Because they were the less experienced part of the roman troops and training them is realistic and you can see that we want realism, as we are playing a realism mod. Else we wouldn't do it, would we?

By the way, I don't think Hastati are surprisingly bad. They are supposed to be worse than Principes and who would be surprised about that?

[Ibrahim]

I'm surprised that many think hastati are bad (surprisingly so). granted, stats are garbage, but these guys will help you win, in a surprising way: they can tire the enemy out in a fight, reducing their effectiveness, and letting the Principes do their thing with fewer losses. Just like real life. they are thus doing exactly what they're supposed to: act like cannon fodder.

(yes, when playing romani, I rotate me forces. no, I won't tell you how)

[Ludens]

Medium... just place your hippeis in 2 horse deep formation, in the front of a line full of hastati, charge them, and they'll send half of the hastati flying without wings....:laugh4:

In my experience, ordinary hippeis are crap chargers. Prodromoi could do this perhaps, but not hippeis, and certainly not when the hastati are standing still and bracing themselves for a charge. Sure, with repeated charges and enough patience, the hippeis will eventually rout them but not before losing a significant number of men, probably more than it costs to recruit a new unit of hastati.

[Cute Wolf]

They are way too expensive if you want a worthwhile salary for their work... I suspect that 200(ca)/200(po) minai is sufficient salary for them, rather than 252(ca)/267(po) minai... it was true they are here for historical reasons, but did it historical to had their salary levels as high as princepes? 262(ca)/296(po).... anyway, if you recreating those same - level salary, you just recreate the vanilla conditions of hastati...:smash:

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

Stop being mean to the Hastati! They are a decent enough unit and equivalent to light infantry. They have a job and they do it well, so they aren't "surprisingly bad" (I don't think they're bad at all).

Also, the Roman army consisted of citizen soldiers, so I was under the belief that they were only paid wages if they were away for a long time. (I once read Livy a long long time ago)

[SpawnOfEbil]

Prodromoi make all other cavalry obsolete (until Hetaroi at least)...

controversial statement i know ;)

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

Prodromoi are frustratingly good units. I want to mix up my cavalry squadrons, but you can use all prodromoi until Hetairoi.

Hastati lose men, but they still win the battle. Polybians are way better than Camillians. Hastati last long enough when you put them in guard mode. They get better with experience chevrons which represents the unit getting used to fighting together. Historically, Roman citizens were grouped with different people every war, with some exceptions. They would suck their first time on campaign and get better by the end. But back on topic, Hastati are good because they are cheap line infantry.

I repel cavalry charges by moving up my second line which causes the horses to flee due to being surrounded by so many troops. I never stand by and let my hastati sit and take damage.

[Lysimachos]

Hastati of course are worse than Principes. But that doesn't make them bad infantry! They still are at least decent sword infantry, so nothing on my hastati.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Hastati are better than many barbarian units out there, including even Gaeroas. They are decent medium infantry and extremely cost effective, even though the best cost effective solution, theoretically, is to recruit only Principes.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Does the overhand cavalry units such as Hippeis or Eastern Medium Cavalry lower its spears/lances when charging? I have yet to succeed in that, bu then again, I rarely use those units for charging. I really fail to see how they can charge without the lowering of the lance. Mercenary generals make up the bulk of my cavalry, and most of the time they are the only cavalry besides the Eqvites Consvlares.

[johnhughthom]

I think the problem with Hastati is due to limitations of the RTW engine, it's difficult to withdraw them and bring the Principes in without heavy casualties. If we could do that, let the Hastati tire a unit out then withdraw in an orderly fashion they would be much more useful. I still wouldn't class them as "bad" though.

[Cullhwch]

Does the overhand cavalry units such as Hippeis or Eastern Medium Cavalry lower its spears/lances when charging? I have yet to succeed in that, bu then again, I rarely use those units for charging. I really fail to see how they can charge without the lowering of the lance. Mercenary generals make up the bulk of my cavalry, and most of the time they are the only cavalry besides the Eqvites Consvlares.

It's weird. When performing a successful charge, the overhand cavalry will actually thrust their spears slightly downward into their enemies a la the normal attack animation. It's barely noticeable, and successful charges are hard to distinguish from unsuccessful ones because even if a charge does hit home, it'll only do so with .15 lethality, so enemy casualties will be minimal.

[gamegeek2]

Yeah, don't bash on the Hastati, they're good for their cost (only 1000 mnai or so). Bash on the RTW engine for its inability to change lethality on a single weapon.

[Cullhwch]

Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.

[penguinking]

Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.

Equites Campanici aren't bad, especially considering how bad the other Roman cavalry is. I agree with you about the other two, though- they're way more expensive but not better than Leuce Epos.

I nominate Thureophoroi, as I find peltasts more effective is a supportive flanking role that they are, and they're not very good at holding a line. They're not awful but nor are they good. Lucanian infantry are also really bad. The Casse light cavalry is horrible, especially when compared to the excellent Gallic ones.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.

How true. Cavalry, even Cataphracts will die quickly if bogged down by spearmen. It is the charge that matters. Cavalry is basically useless without a spear/lance as a sword does not really have the impact of a spear. All the sword cavalry is good for is chasing down routers. Their charge does almost no damage and melee is usually not an option. That is why I always recruit the horse archers with the spears/lances as secondary weapons, as the sword-armed ones are useless for all but mop-up duties once the arrows are expended.

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

I think you are harsh on the equites campanici. Yes they don't have a lance or spear to charge with, but they aren't supposed to charge. They are skirmishers. What they are good for is killing other cavalry. If you have your normal equites bogged down in a battle with another cavalry unit, the campanici with their swords can kill the AI cavalry which will be using it's slower spear attack.

[satalexton]

i find sword cavalry very nice in mobbing enemy FMs....

[gamegeek2]

Sword cavalry are fine, just don't use them against melee infantry except to mob them and cause a rout. But they are a tad overpriced for what they do, and I prefer Leuce Epos.

About that Thureophoroi comment - they are very solid heavy infantry, with much more staying power than Peltasts, and they can put most cavalry to flight.

[Cullhwch]

I think you are harsh on the equites campanici. Yes they don't have a lance or spear to charge with, but they aren't supposed to charge. They are skirmishers. What they are good for is killing other cavalry. If you have your normal equites bogged down in a battle with another cavalry unit, the campanici with their swords can kill the AI cavalry which will be using it's slower spear attack.

Or you could just charge a unit of Curepos at that engaged cavalry unit and rout it immediately without having to worry about a prolonged melee. There are very few situations in which Campanici et al are better than skirmisher/shock cavalry.

Oh, and Thureophoroi are far from disappointing. They can be a great bread-and-butter unit, and almost perfectly priced for what they do.

[Woreczko]

1)Thureophoroi. Remember, that they are suppose to cover phalanx weak spots, not form the battle line. With spears they are a lot better at receiving cavalry charges than peltasts, while higher armour gives them more durabiility against missiles and lets them hold that flank a bit longer. Denser formation makes them better in guard mode, in which peltasts suck.

2) Sword cavalry. If your opponent has the cavalry superiority, and is human, you won`t have the luxury of charging here and there, as you wish. He will tie your horsemen in melee and won`t let you go... unless your cavalry has enough melee skill to make such a tie-up undesirable for him.

[QuintusSertorius]

Or you could just charge a unit of Curepos at that engaged cavalry unit and rout it immediately without having to worry about a prolonged melee. There are very few situations in which Campanici et al are better than skirmisher/shock cavalry.

Oh, and Thureophoroi are far from disappointing. They can be a great bread-and-butter unit, and almost perfectly priced for what they do.

Exactly, cavalry without spears/lances are entirely useless.

[Celtic_Punk]

agreed.

[penguinking]

1)Thureophoroi. Remember, that they are suppose to cover phalanx weak spots, not form the battle line. With spears they are a lot better at receiving cavalry charges than peltasts, while higher armour gives them more durabiility against missiles and lets them hold that flank a bit longer. Denser formation makes them better in guard mode, in which peltasts suck.


They're not really bad. But if I want a unit to hold my flank with durability and that's good in guard mode, I'll go with classical hoplites, who are much more durable. If I want to have a versatile outflanking unit, I'll go with peltasts. The Thureophoroi are sort of stuck in between the two, unable to do either job that well.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

I love hoplites. The missile ability of Thureophoroi is nice. But I've found that the lower defense and morale of the unit attracts the enemy to the flanks. I don't have that problem with hoplites or hypaspists.

[antisocialmunky]

I think the problem with Hastati is due to limitations of the RTW engine, it's difficult to withdraw them and bring the Principes in without heavy casualties. If we could do that, let the Hastati tire a unit out then withdraw in an orderly fashion they would be much more useful. I still wouldn't class them as "bad" though.

I've never had too many issues with Hastati epically failing as some has stated. I dunno, it might just be the fact that I usually play infantry heavy armies. They have served me well in my previous campaigns where I restricted my self to 1/2 stack armies as the Romans.(GAH THE PO RIVER VALLEY where I was outnumbered 4 to 1) Silver chevron Hastati made up the core of my Iberian armies. I left them there defending towns for about 5 years before I managed to ship/walk a few more legions over there.

I have actually come up with a standard set of heavy ifnantry tactics for EB and made a fairly good version of the manipular swap:

1) The main thing to do with any sort of heavy infantry is that you put the first line of them in guard mode. The defense bonus and more importantly that insane stamina bonus(seems to be related to the fact that fewer of your men actually fight/move) make your men last so much longer. I usually spread this line fairly thin if I'm encountering lots of infantry(2-3 men thick) but thicker(4-6) if I'm fighting cavalry.

2) Never order guys in guard mode to attack, keep them in guard mode and receive the enemy's charge. If you tell them to attack, they lose the stamina bonus because the whole unit will start pushing.

The Swap: You spread your Hastati and Principles in two thin lines(2-3 guys) with the principles right behind the Hastati. You set your Hastati to defend to grind away at the enemy's stamina. You set your Principles to the normal attack mode. As the battle is joined, you will notice your Hastati slowly being pushed back. This is because guard mode units that are not told to attack do not push forward, they are pushed backwards instead. After a while, the Hastati line will be pushed into the Principles line. Hopefully the enemy is tired by now. This will cause the fresh Principles to engage and start pushing forward. After a little bit your Hastati and Principles will be overlapping.

When you wish to pull your Hastati out, take them out of guard mode and tell them to run out of there. They'll do it and only take a few casualties because low stamina lowers lethality and they can't chase your guys because the Principles are pushing them backwards.

The Roman infantry seem particularly well suited for this sort of thing especially those heavily armored Samnite spearmen that are really good at just sitting there and not dying while tiring out the enemy.

[Skullheadhq]

Well... Roman Army's where didn't have any good cavalry(if any). 35000 Romans where crushed at the battle of Carrhae because they didn't have enough cavalry(dispite the romans having the numbers on their side. And so did the Greek army. The 10.000 had only 40(!) cavalry troops so you can't expect that Thessalian troops are the best trained cavalry force in the known world.

[machinor]

I have actually come up with a standard set of heavy ifnantry tactics for EB and made a fairly good version of the manipular swap:

1) The main thing to do with any sort of heavy infantry is that you put the first line of them in guard mode. The defense bonus and more importantly that insane stamina bonus(seems to be related to the fact that fewer of your men actually fight/move) make your men last so much longer. I usually spread this line fairly thin if I'm encountering lots of infantry(2-3 men thick) but thicker(4-6) if I'm fighting cavalry.

2) Never order guys in guard mode to attack, keep them in guard mode and receive the enemy's charge. If you tell them to attack, they lose the stamina bonus because the whole unit will start pushing.

The Swap: You spread your Hastati and Principles in two thin lines(2-3 guys) with the principles right behind the Hastati. You set your Hastati to defend to grind away at the enemy's stamina. You set your Principles to the normal attack mode. As the battle is joined, you will notice your Hastati slowly being pushed back. This is because guard mode units that are not told to attack do not push forward, they are pushed backwards instead. After a while, the Hastati line will be pushed into the Principles line. Hopefully the enemy is tired by now. This will cause the fresh Principles to engage and start pushing forward. After a little bit your Hastati and Principles will be overlapping.

When you wish to pull your Hastati out, take them out of guard mode and tell them to run out of there. They'll do it and only take a few casualties because low stamina lowers lethality and they can't chase your guys because the Principles are pushing them backwards.

The Roman infantry seem particularly well suited for this sort of thing especially those heavily armored Samnite spearmen that are really good at just sitting there and not dying while tiring out the enemy.
This sounds like an excellent tactic, antisocialmonkey. :2thumbsup:
I will try to have Pyrrhos' son in my Epirote campaign adopt a similar tactic from the Romans. I don't use that much phalangites in my armies since the Roman AI tends to outmaneuver my main phalanx battle line and go for the flanks.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I don't use that much phalangites in my armies since the Roman AI tends to outmaneuver my main phalanx battle line and go for the flanks.

Well, I don't use them because it feels like cheating and takes all the fun out of fighting. In EB, the phalanxes are virtually impenetrable from the front by anything except heavy cavalry. Pantodapoi Phalangitai can beat even Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, just as long as the phalanx mode is on and the TABs are attacking from he front. The only exception is when I am fighting another army that employs numerous phalanxes.

[machinor]

That's why I usually turn guard mode off, to simulate a more "realistic" phalanx. Apart from that, I usually too use them mostly against other phalanx factions which - playing mostly hellenistic factions - I encounter often.

[Aemilius Paulus]

That's why I usually turn guard mode off, to simulate a more "realistic" phalanx.

What does that do? Never tried doing that. I'm talking about pike phalanxes BTW.

[machinor]

Me too. Hoplites I call hoplites. ;)
Putting guard mode off makes the phalanxes less impenetrable and they get fatigued and thus take more casualties afaik. I do this to actually "simulate" a more realistic battle between pike phalanxes. Since in the long term I'll probably lose against the AI phalanx (being in guard mode by default) I'll have to win on the flanks to decide the battle, which afaik is the usual strategy in Successor warfare. Kind of my own personal Successor warfare battle house rule.

[Dayve]

Not sure if they've been mentioned yet, but i was quite disappointed by the Numidian noble cavalry. I'm far from being an expert on this area of ancient history, but i thought that, since Hannibal's Numidian cavalry was so important to him, played such a key part in his battles and came as such a blow when they switched their allegiance to the Romans, i thought they might have been a bit... well, better.

They're not terrible by any means... i mean, you are attacking a unit from head on and a position opens up, that unit can dash in behind them and pepper them with javelins... that's always a useful battlefield role, especially when the odds are with your enemy and every man you can kill without losing one of your own counts.

I just find them to be... lacking. Their charges aren't very good and they drop like flies when fighting even unarmoured skirmishers.

I would like to balance this post out with a surprisingly good unit, however. Maure infantry. You find them in the same areas as Numidian cavalry. They look primitive. No armour, a shield, a sword and some throwing spears.

Don't be fooled, they're a fantastic cheap unit. They're lacking in defense yes, but they make up for it with their numbers and the javelins. You'll get 6 or 7 volleys from them, and if they get all 6 volleys off, whatever they threw them at will be weakened to the point where their numbers tip the fight in their favour, and they will win.

A surprisingly awesome unit!

[Ibrahim]

Not sure if they've been mentioned yet, but i was quite disappointed by the Numidian noble cavalry. I'm far from being an expert on this area of ancient history, but i thought that, since Hannibal's Numidian cavalry was so important to him, played such a key part in his battles and came as such a blow when they switched their allegiance to the Romans, i thought they might have been a bit... well, better.

They're not terrible by any means... i mean, you are attacking a unit from head on and a position opens up, that unit can dash in behind them and pepper them with javelins... that's always a useful battlefield role, especially when the odds are with your enemy and every man you can kill without losing one of your own counts.

I just find them to be... lacking. Their charges aren't very good and they drop like flies when fighting even unarmoured skirmishers.

I would like to balance this post out with a surprisingly good unit, however. Maure infantry. You find them in the same areas as Numidian cavalry. They look primitive. No armour, a shield, a sword and some throwing spears.

Don't be fooled, they're a fantastic cheap unit. They're lacking in defense yes, but they make up for it with their numbers and the javelins. You'll get 6 or 7 volleys from them, and if they get all 6 volleys off, whatever they threw them at will be weakened to the point where their numbers tip the fight in their favour, and they will win.

A surprisingly awesome unit!

no skirmisher cavalry is meant to charge head on into another cavalry or infantry unit-ever. Hence, keep your numidians at a distance, until the enemy's inferior stamina and depleted ranks dull them(badly). Then Charge! their charge bonus won't make too big a diff, but they'll win, most because as missile cav, they'll be less tired than the heavy cav that romans or cathaginians use. and hit from the flanks or rear.

just keep you distance, and tire them out.:yes:

[Watchman]

Multiple-unit converging charges also highly recommended. Rinse and repeat until you run out of targets. Scientifically known as "cavalry rapage", I believe.

[Kuningaz]

I was actually quite disappointed by my carthaginan sacred band infantry... I made one unit of them to try them out and used them in my army against the ptolies. In the first battle I was attacked by a single unit of hellenic native spearmen 'reinforcement' in the back, so I decided to try my shiny sacred band against them. What happened? After about 10 minutes of fighting they finally managed to rout those crappy spearmen, loosing half of their unit!:wall: