A Routing Bug???

[Coucy]

OK, here's the deal: I was playing a battle last night against the AI, and I was having a bit of trouble repositioning a portion of my main defense line, in response to an enemy flanking attempt. Basically, I was trying to "refuse" the right side of my line (about 3 lines of infantry, 1 archer and cav behind them, all Grouped together). And the game was Paused.

The reason I was having trouble was because I was trying to pull back the whole right wing group above on a slope, and getting the right alignment was tricky. So, I kept hitting the space bar to see where they would all end up, decide that no that wont quite do, and then click and drag and spacebar again. The angular slope made it hard for me to drag 'em exactly where I wanted 'em. So, I repeated the above process about 5 times or so.

And let me repeat: the game was PAUSED during this time!

Well, after about the 5th try, Rout flags appeared on 3 of my units. Wha??? I tried to reposition the group again, and then a 4th unit raised a white flag! I thought no this can't be right, how can my units be routing, I have the game paused! So I tried again...and now the whole group is sporting Rout flags. Huh???

I unpause, and sure enough, it was for real: my whole danged right wing was fleeing, even before ANY contact with the enemy!

And let me reiterate this: They all began routing while I was issuing orders, and had the game PAUSED.

I NEVER was able to Rally those guys. That one unit of flanking AI spearmen managed to chase a third of my army off the map, without ever touching 'em with a spear.

Um...it would seem that I was being penalized by the game system for giving too many commands to that group??? Because of my lack of mouse dexerity, I got crippled in battle? I had no idea I could shoot myself in the foot like that, while the game was Paused. I kinda thought Pause was a safe harbor, where it was not possible to screw up like this.

What think you guys? Bug or really really bizarre feature?

Coucy

[TomThumbKOP]

I've noticed this before also. I sometimes use it as a frame by frame slow-mo to watch boulders from my arty plow through the bad guys. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Del]

Bottomline, IMHO it's alot more fun to play the realtime in full realtime and let the fast and furious blows land where they may. hehehe

Del

[jas]

I think this is just down to giving too many orders to your troops. Same in STW as I guess you know, if you bossed them around too much they'd think you didn't know what you were doing so they'd lose faith in you and run off. I have been wondering whether orders issued while paused would contribute to this, and I guess you proved that they do!

[Kraxis]

While the game is indeed paused, it unpauses for one frame when you issue orders. So the time is not at a standstill if you order troops around.
If the game had been at a standstill you would have experienced a rout at once when you unpaused, but now you experienced it when the splitsecond was over.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[sbreden]

were you near the rear border of the map? perhaps you inadvertantly forced a rout as they were so close to being off the map. hmmmm strange.

[TheViking]

Its no probs if it is like that, to many orders make a unit rout.

But then they should make so if i want to take one unit out of the battle they really should move away from the battle so i dont need to repeat the clicking all the time wich make my men rout.

Its a stupid feature or what it is. And it never happend to me when i play STW and I played that for more then 1.5 years now.

Well actuly (or however u spell it) it havnt happend to that much in MTW maybe 1 or 2 times but it is 1 or 2 times to much.

If the enemy is in the back i can understand. but not if he is in front of u and nowhere near ur unit/s.

------------------
There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.

[Niccolomachiavelli]

I completely agree that this is a stupid feature. Pause is a magical time in which a person gets to study the situation and figure out solutions and alterntives. It sucks that one would be penalized for experimenting

[Dionysus9]

Gah!

This is no bug, it is a long-standing feature. I dont have time to get into the details, but in a nutshell:

If you give a unit multiple orders (I forget how many) to move away from impending combat, eventually the unit routs.

This feature was part of STW, MI/WE, and now MTW, to stop people from always running away from the fight. Imagine an all cav-archer army that refused to commit to combat and let the clock run down for the win.

It had a little more justification in STW&MI/WE where there was a ranking system, but I think overall it is a good feature and unless you are doing something unrealistic (i.e. pause) or ordering a bazillion retreats (lag sometimes does it) it works fine.

I've never had a problem with it- maybe because I know it exists and have a basic understanding of how it works.

I bet there is a good archive topic on this.

[Niccolomachiavelli]

Umm, thats not whats in dispute here. I completely agree that a general giving a bunch of orders to lose ground and regroup should have a morale loss, but *not* when the game is paused

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
Gah!

This is no bug, it is a long-standing feature. I dont have time to get into the details, but in a nutshell:

If you give a unit multiple orders (I forget how many) to move away from impending combat, eventually the unit routs.

This feature was part of STW, MI/WE, and now MTW, to stop people from always running away from the fight. Imagine an all cav-archer army that refused to commit to combat and let the clock run down for the win.

It had a little more justification in STW&MI/WE where there was a ranking system, but I think overall it is a good feature and unless you are doing something unrealistic (i.e. pause) or ordering a bazillion retreats (lag sometimes does it) it works fine.

I've never had a problem with it- maybe because I know it exists and have a basic understanding of how it works.

I bet there is a good archive topic on this.

[/QUOTE]

The problem is implementation. Too often, I've had a general rout in a battle when I'm using him to draw an entrenched enemy from a hill position.

Sure, I'm maneuvering him quite a bit. But who cares? He's strategically drawing out enemy spearmen so I can effectively flank the unit. And when I'm winning a battle 10:1 in kills (and the general's unit hasn't lost a man), it makes absolutely no sense for him to run away, no matter how much I'm moving him.

It's also rather ridiculous to think that a general unit can rout because he's distressed by getting too many of his own orders.... Though i guess with the number of unhinged loons in the game, it's possible that generals secretly suffer from dissociative identity disorders.

Very annoying. I toss this in with the withdraw=rout bug. Hopefully, both are corrected in the patch.

[Yoko Kono]

a way to avoid this is to drag ur units to a new position then (while holding down the mouse button) hit space, if the position is unacceptable hit escape and start again
this way youy do not issue multiple commands and your men do not get edgy

[NinjaKilla]

The 'rout bug' or 'autorout' as it was called in STW/MI was not what you'd call a 'feature', nor was it primarily affected by stacking orders. You could recreate an auto-rout in a test environment by facing a large number of men against a unit and then stacking orders, but in my experience auto-routs tended to occur when your line-up was moved into awkward positions and facings on the map (I wont't mention names but it tended to occur against some opponents more than others). You can sometimes identify auto-routing units because they don't rally and if it was your gen, the 'gen is running away' message would be repeated every few seconds.

Having said that, I'm not sure that this case is an auto-rout. I've had a few beers and haven't fully read the above posts, but I would have thought that this had been fixed for MTW, also I would have thought that it had been reported earlier. But maybe it is...


------------------
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)

[favedave]

Here's how you can spot this problem coming:

I love to use light cav to go towards the enemy, then turn tail. The AI cannot resist charging you from behind. Obviously, this is a useful tactic to lead the AI where you want it. Like in front of your arbies.

The problem is, it can give your guys low morale. Put your cursor over the unit and you'll see a status message - you know, like when it says "feeling safe on hill", "happy that flanks are protected," etc.

After a lot of going to and from the enemy, it says something like "worried from constant retreating." Even though you're not - it freaks the unit out and they will eventually rout.

Every time you issue an order when paused, your guys move just a little bit. And every time you move directly away from the enemy, it thinks it's retreating. Too much retreating = lower morale = routing.

The only way to do it effectively is to use different units, so that each one only retreats a few times.

I must say, it is highly amusing to lead an enemy unit in a nice long chase directly in front of a long line of arbies. They get chewed up while fixated on catching the unit they're chasing.

[Lord Romulous]

to have this happening during pause totaly sucks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

it doesnt really effect me cause i repostion my units maybe once or twice during any given pause but it the "feature" shouldn't be there.

maybe this why the ai routs so often cause they are constantly repostioning there units due to missile fire etc.



------------------
Thanks for posting your message, Lord Romulous! We are now sending you back automatically to this topic.

It was my pleasure :D

[Coucy]

Quote Originally posted by Yoko Kono:
a way to avoid this is to drag ur units to a new position then (while holding down the mouse button) hit space, if the position is unacceptable hit escape and start again
this way youy do not issue multiple commands and your men do not get edgy[/QUOTE]

Yeah, this is probably the best workaround to this...well, not exactly a bug, but an intersection of the "one-frame unpause" while issuing orders feature and "retreating in face of enemy" morale penalty feature. With a healthy dose of the Law of Unintended Consequences thrown in for good measure! : )

Thanks for explaining this mystery to me everyone, this one had me going for a while!

Coucy

[Papa Bear!]

perhaps I'm confused by something, but if you're dragging out your formations for your units shouldn't you be able to see their placement as you drag them? If so then why do you need the spacebar?

i only use the spacebar to remind myself of where I've put other units, so that I can issue orders 1 by 1, (I always order my units 1 by 1 if I can, since group orders forces some to run, and without being able to set this, it gets quite annoying if they have a long trek ahead of them, as they'll tire quickly)

[Coucy]

Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:
perhaps I'm confused by something, but if you're dragging out your formations for your units shouldn't you be able to see their placement as you drag them? If so then why do you need the spacebar?

i only use the spacebar to remind myself of where I've put other units, so that I can issue orders 1 by 1, (I always order my units 1 by 1 if I can, since group orders forces some to run, and without being able to set this, it gets quite annoying if they have a long trek ahead of them, as they'll tire quickly)[/QUOTE]

Well, in this particular instance, I was having trouble finding the right spot to begin mouse-dragging. So I had to click, unclick, reclick alot. Which is how I ended up giving so many orders to my poor confused lads who ended up routing as a result. Who I thought really should not be confused; after all, the game was Paused, wasn't it?

Now I know better!

Coucy

[Papa Bear!]

ya I'll admit I do the same thing, the formations are sometimes painful to set if on a curved slope... (and I've heard word that you can set a formation then just change its facing using the alt key, but this doesn't work for me)

But fortunately my fellas have never routed as a result, I must wonder now if I've done bad things to my morale with this...

It seems like the simple truth is that if they're gonna include a feature like this then they need a slightly more intuitive command/movement system. (some claimed it clumsy, but did anybody like the formation/movement system in myth 2? I found it extremely adaptable, and you could, within seconds most of the time, get your boys facing exactly how you wanted them)

[The Green Knight]

i agree that if the game is paused then it should be a penalty free zone. ie no orders are counted as issued until u unpause.

those of u who dont use the pause feature - well fair play to you - but it is a welcome feature for some of us.

[macajor]

can i ask why u pause the game to issue orders?

[GilJaysmith]

If you pause the game and then issue an order, the order isn't actually received by the unit until the next frame, so the spacebar would normally keep showing where the unit had previously been ordered to. To allow it to show the new destination, we clock the game forward one frame each time you issue an order while paused, so the unit receives the order and the spacebar will show the new destination.

This means that if you issue several orders to the same unit, each one counts as a separate order, rather than just the last. This increases the danger of being routed by the 'Benny Hill' detector, which, as described in other messages above, is there to stop you from playing silly games with a unit's position.

Unfortunately, it seems that Benny Hill is sometimes triggered by legitimate military manoeuvres...

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
Unfortunately, it seems that Benny Hill is sometimes triggered by legitimate military manoeuvres...[/QUOTE]

Rather that than avoidance of combat... to a certain degree of course.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Dorkus]

Wonder if anyone could mod this out?

I don't know what it is, but it's been happening a LOT to me of late.

The worst part about it is that it's completely arbitrary -- sometimes, I give a unit literally 100 orders in a row (usually when he's completely exhausted and I'm trying to get him away from a battle -- if you doulbe click repeatedly, the unit will 'run' despite its state of fatigue, hehe). Obviously, that's an exploit, and I could understand if the unit routs when it's completely exhausted and I've just double clicked away from the enemy 100 times.

But autorout RARELY happens when I do that. It usually happens at or near the beginning of a battle, when I'm using a unit as a decoy, before it's taken any losses, and before the battle has even really begun!!

This really starts to grate on you when you have to 'do over' a turn that included 6-7 important battles because your king ran off in the last one -- routing your entire army, and causing you to thus lose your capital province....

[gothicform]

i had this happen to a unit of spearmen with a valour level of 3. i had got 5 units of longbowmen on the top of a hill and they had killed over 500 enemy, so i send the spearmen down to mop up the behind whilst the urban milita and milita sgts were defending the longbowmen from a frontal attack and instead of the spearmen attacking the enemy missile units they ran off once i had them in position. they hadnt lost a man and weren't taking fire from anywhere else. this was the sole reason i lost this battle despite the final casualty figures being 700 dead enemy and 200 captured and i lost 250 men.

[longjohn2]

The benny hill detection code is triggered when you retreat away from the nearest enemy unit, and that unit is fairly close by. If the enemy are a long way off, you can manoeuvre all you like.

Anyway I thought I'd just point out that dancing in front of the enemy with your king (aka using him as a decoy ), is in no way a reasonable tactic and if you resort to it, you can hardly complain about the game behaving unreasonably.

[Papa Bear!]

Speak for YOUR King if you like. But MY King has kahonies, and he'll gladly taunt the enemy with various genstures until they're willing to engage...

(actually I don't use that tactic, but now I'm unclear, do multiple orders not affect morale unless their multiple orders that are basically retreating when near an enemy?)

i.e. could I order my boys around a 1000 times while they're all alone and morale wouldn't be affected? This seems to be what you've suggested, and yet my experience in game says otherwise...

Lastly, any chance that you can reduce the "impetousness/stupidity" of mounted troops when they engage? Sometimes its almost impossible to get them to break off an engagement without just routing them.

Or maybe this factor should just be reduced with cavalry? I mean their on horses for a reason, its mobility last I checked... Why in the world should you suffer for using that mobility to your advantage? (like when I try to run my horsies around the back of a unit).

oh and, uh, i'm sure I had something else to ask/complain about, but now I've forgotten. Thanks for the answers guys, though I'm not clear, that at least helps a little, (I think), maybe, perhaps?

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by longjohn2:
The benny hill detection code is triggered when you retreat away from the nearest enemy unit, and that unit is fairly close by. If the enemy are a long way off, you can manoeuvre all you like.

Anyway I thought I'd just point out that dancing in front of the enemy with your king (aka using him as a decoy ), is in no way a reasonable tactic and if you resort to it, you can hardly complain about the game behaving unreasonably.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I don't really agree with you -- peronally, I think dancing in and out of missile range is what makes cav fun -- but I can see your reasoning. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif

Even if preventing decoy maneuvers was partof your intention, however, I still see a problem with the way it's currently being implemented.

Particularly on hilly terrain and in large-scale battles, you do a heck of a lot of maneuvering to get your cav into a good position to attack. And when I'm maneuvering my unit into an advantageous position for ATTACK, they shouldn't suddenly rout because they're 'constantly retreating.' *shrug*

Not a game breaking issue, obviously, so I can completely understand if it's not a priority. Maybe someone in the community will mod it out for those of us who have a penchant for excessive micromanagement.

Edit: Ok, so for example today. I'm attacking portugal and I send my king's unit alone to take out enemy artillery (the defense was one of those armies with 8 units of artillery, all of which are strangely separated from the rest of the enemy army).

He kills all the artillery, and I'm walking him back to my army. And he routs due to 'constant retreat'!!! I mean, that just can't be right....

[This message has been edited by Dorkus (edited 10-26-2002).]

[The Green Knight]

"can i ask why u pause the game to issue orders?!"

tO MACAJOR

I cant take in the whole battle at once and need to look at what is happening at different points of the field. sometime i have horse archeers scattered around the place. also a unit can rout quickly so those few secs taken to sort out one unit could result in another going bye bye.

finally i am old and slow http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif and do not enjoy "click fest games"

[LittleGrizzly]

id had this problem a lot in WE if id lost a ame id just play for time but the unit would always rout i wodered what it was