Vices=bugged. + Pope at the stakes.

[Mithrandir]

Virtues&Vices suck, the idea is nice ,but the execution just sucks.

They build up way to fast, (esp the bad ones-or is it just my imagination?

See below :

Here's my very cool&powerful general, it was just a coincidence I made the screenshot... He had only fought a few battles, all victories, and never retreated nor cancelled the attack.

http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/coolgen.jpg

and here he is 10 seconds later after cancelling an attack.

http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/hesitant.jpg

-3 morale for cancelling one attack ???
I had him attack many other prvinces after that, all victories, but the stupid hesitant thing just stayed http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif.


edit : I didn't play around with the pictures....
------------------
http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/icons/icon1.gif http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/icons/icon2.gif http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/icons/icon3.gif
Check out the Fantasy Total War mod! (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000587.html)
Think about it :
"There is no alternative for death"-J van Baars,Book of lore.

[This message has been edited by Mithrandir (edited 09-14-2002).]

[Mithrandir]

hehe ,forgot :
Got this mailed from someone who couldn;t host it and requested it to be hosted so it could get posted, so I hosted it so that the person could post it,which he couldn't do before because he couldn;t host it....you get the point http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif.

http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/pope.jpg

------------------
http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/icons/icon1.gif http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/icons/icon2.gif http://members.home.nl/jvanbaars/icons/icon3.gif
Check out the Fantasy Total War mod! (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000587.html)
Think about it :
"There is no alternative for death"-J van Baars,Book of lore.

[hunkypex]

yes the vices and virtues feature can be inbred and perverted. One of my generals became inbred at the age of probably 80.

It needs to be sorted out. what was my best genral is now a mediocre has-been whos a merciless hessitant inbred magnificant builder. and thats half of em.

[Annapolis]

Well, on paper it sounds great. I guess in actuality it isn't as great a feature are it should be. Unfortunatly though, I dont even have the game yet. I will have it likely by next week, but I am a little short on cash because I am buying a brand new comp to run it.

I am playing the Danes too but King Olaf was one of the greatest kings... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The problem was (still is) the next King: an alcholic that thinks he was born from an elephant LMAO!



------------------
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[Lord Aeon]

"Overreaction" is simply not a word in the average gamer's vocabulary...

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Taohn]

They just need to clean up how V&Vs are assigned. e.g. "weak priciples" on an heir.
My least favorite is getting the "no mercy" vice so soon(+dread, -morale). You shoud be able to execute ,say, 2000 captives before getting the morale penalty. Growing "odd numbers of toes" at middle age is annoying to.

------------------


Like all Miyagi, Shimpo Sensei was fisherman.... Love fishing. Love sake. One day, strongo wind, strongo sun, strongo sake, but no fish. Shimpo Sensei fall asleep off coast of Okinawa, wake up off coast of China.

[dancho]

It's the language that's porked. Somebody didn't think it through. Nobody will believe that a person can be "utterly fearless" AND a "coward." BUT we all know that these words just stand for numeric adjustments in the game.

So....

Changing the language would fix the problem (In My Humble Opinion).

For example:

Instead of "Coward" how about "Devoted Father?"

Instead of "Utterly Fearless" how about "Show Off?" So now, "Show Off" and "Devoted Father" doesn't seem so nutty.
"ATHIEST" becomes "SKEPTIC." "BORN AGAIN" would become "ENJOYS CHURCH."

Now, a general who was

UTTERLY FEARLESS
COWARD
ATHIEST
BORN AGAIN

is now

SHOW OFF
DEVOTED FATHER
SKEPTIC
ENJOYS CHURCH

see? Just change the words, not the numbers.

[Grifman]

I don't see the problem. If you retreat from a battle, you automatically get the "Hesitant" attacker vice. That's not a bug or poor implementation - other than your poor implementation of an attack http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The idea is to penalize you if you use feint attacks, or if you are not committed to an attack to carry it through. Don't want the vice on your king - fight the battle. Don't want to worry about the possibility of withdrawing, then use a crummy general and let him get the vice.

Grifman

[pdoan8]

It's not the problem that my general got bad V&V such as "Hesistant", "Eager to Retreat" if poorly planed. The probllem is there is no way to make up and sometimes the good V&V that the general got later still can not over come the bad ones.

How about a King who has "Clever Assistant" and "Very Loyal" V&V?

V&V is very nice feature. I really like it. However, I like it more dynamic and have some kind of filter to avoid some cases like: King get "Clever Assistant", King and heirs get loyalty V&V (only indirect blood line should).

[Mithrandir]

It may be penalized, but it's very unrealistic to get a -3 morale penalty http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif for just canceling a battle once, if it happened 3 times or so ,it'd be better, the main bug with vnv is that they're static, they dont change ,no matter how many battles you win http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif.

------------------
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Check out the Fantasy Total War mod! (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000587.html)
Think about it :
"There is no alternative for death"-J van Baars,Book of lore.

[hunkypex]

Will somebody please think of the inbred children?

[Pachinko]

Mith>>

Your right! I got so P.O.ed! It was a English dude. An way, I was a 8 General against the Egypt. 3000 vs 175 men about that, SOOOO I said this is stupid. I put the button to a resolve. I won....of course...But I got a V&V that says runner!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif Now, come on please.

P.

[Grifman]

Yes, any one V&V is static. But they can and are offset by others. If your general keeps winning and his command points go up, then that can offset a bad V&V.

I also don't see anyone here complaining about the opposite. Say you get "Skilled Defender" because you win a battle against overwhelming odds. But then lose two or three other battles at even odds. Well, "Skilled Defender" doesn't go away. So why aren't you complaining about that?

Point is, the V&Vs are consistent in application, and they can work AGAINST you or FOR you. How they do it is up to you.

Grifman

[Yoko Kono]

Quote Originally posted by Mithrandir:
It may be penalized, but it's very unrealistic to get a -3 morale penalty http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif for just canceling a battle once, if it happened 3 times or so ,it'd be better, the main bug with vnv is that they're static, they dont change ,no matter how many battles you win http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif.

[/QUOTE]

this is perhaps one of the only negative vices i beleive you SHOULD get instantly
i suspect it was put in stop feint attacks, something you could do on shogun to ensure your actual battles were extremely easy and versus minimum troops
the failure of shoguns ai to deal with this `easy` way to conquer fedual japan has been offset in MTW by this virtue
if you feel cheating the ai in this manner is essential then simply send in a general who u never actually intend to send into battle

[Taohn]

It would be nice if Vices and Virtues could be downgraded without getting another V&V. So, say you've gotten a general to "brave beyond belief" but then he runs a couple times or you start leaving him out of the fight alot. Then "brave beyond belief" should be downgraded to "utterly fearless".(might be the other way around-"utterly fearless" might be better than "brave beyond...") If you continue avoiding fights with him he will descend through each level of that V&V set until he reaches "coward" However, if you start fighting with him again he should be able to drop "coward" and start rising again.

Whether a unit gets vices like "inbred" and "odd number of toes" should be decided when that unit is trained with no chance of getting them after.

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Like all Miyagi, Shimpo Sensei was fisherman.... Love fishing. Love sake. One day, strongo wind, strongo sun, strongo sake, but no fish. Shimpo Sensei fall asleep off coast of Okinawa, wake up off coast of China.

[ltj]

for the "hestitant" one, it makes perfect sense you should get 'punished' for a feint attack. think about it: you marched an entire army several hundred miles to another country, only to decide when confronted with the enemy to turn around and head back? that'd piss your soldiers off big-time.

so far the negatives can be a little harsh and i have to constantly send bad heirs to die by rebel fire, but they add a very cool dimension to generals.

[spmetla]

I think the system is fine. I've sure had some strange generals and heirs. My only complaint is I'm always careful about the inbreding and make sure it never happens but then my most prominent heir gets incest.

Oh well, a little family love....ugh!

I've had a Heretic Zealot before.

[ltj]

to fight incest, just keep royalty & princeses away from each other right?

[andrewt]

Some V&V's are really weird. A case in point is you can get inbred and odd number of toes randomly. It doesn't really make any sense for a general to become inbred after a while. The major reason not to inbreed is the large possibility of getting hereditary diseases and other bugs in the genetic makeup. Usually, it's a defect in chromosome and mRNA sequences and the way the body strings amino acids to create proteins. You are either born with these defects or they do not appear at all. After a general is created, he could have inbred or odd number of toes but they shouldn't appear later as your chromosomes never change.

[ltj]

i think witches are to blame in this case

[Xer0]

How do you know what vices gives - to morale?

[Yoko Kono]

move the mouse pointer over the vice/virtue
a small descrition appears at the bottom of the parchment along with any modifiers
vices that lower piety, dread and even valour do not bother me that much, the ones to watch out for are the morale punishers
a six star general who is hesitant, eager to retreat, a good runner and a coward with often flee the battle at the mere sight of a unit of enemy soldiers
in battle morale is paramount

[Mount Suribachi]

I think the general consensus is that V&Vs are a great feature but they need cleaning up and organising a bit better. My Doge got "builder" twice, which was annoying, rather than upgrading "builder" to the next highest virtue. I particularly like the idea of a sliding scale for stuff like cowardice/bravery atheist/god fearing etc. Maybe for the expansion pack?

And I agree, the "hesitant" vice is a good one to stop feints (I use muppet generals instead ). And remember, IRL you get a bad name very easily. It's not so easy to get rid of that bad rep tho...

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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

While some of the Virtues & Vices are gained through actions, I believe others such as "Inbred" are present, but discovered later. That is, the general was always inbred, but you didn't know it until he commanded your army for a while. True, the bonuses or penalties only become active when you discover it, which is unrealistic, but the dimension the V&V system adds to the game outweighs that flaw for me.



------------------
The King Who was Thursday

[insolent1]

I agree that if u do call off an attack you should get the hesitant vice. All my good generals(so hard to get in expert) have bad vices. One of mine is rank 8 utterly fearless in battle, legendary leader, expert attacker, field defence speacialist, skilled last stand, devout, magnifcent builder, numerate, no mercy, steward & best of all doubtful courage. He did actually run from a battle screaming like a girl but he still kicks ass he has never been beaten his unit of royal knights is 15 valour. I think the command rating of the general has a lot to do with morale because this general gives his army -12 morale in total & yet he has won an awful battles & one in partcular where his - morale shoudl ahve made my army loose it was in egpyt where he attacked against a force twice his size & won without a single unit routing & they where all totally exhausted, there was some wavering. I just moved my general everywhere my men where fighting eg I would c some hal's wavering & I would send my general close to them they would immediately stop wavering even with an enemy unit still flanking them. So I don't think the - morale vices are as efffective on higher ranking generals.

[Yoko Kono]

hig command means high valour and high calor means high morale
i think u get 1 valor per 2 command and 2 morale per valor
so an 8 star gen would give +8 morale before any vices modify
can someone post definite stats on this?

[Cheetah]

Listed in the TC

[Taojah]

Quote Originally posted by Grifman:
Point is, the V&Vs are consistent in application, and they can work AGAINST you or FOR you. How they do it is up to you.
Grifman[/QUOTE]

Well, I disagree on the consistency-thingy. A general that in his youth withdraw once is hesitant for the rest of his life, no matter what ?

When he attacks like 5 times after that the hesitant vice should go away, IMHO.

[Papa Bear!]

Quote Originally posted by Grifman:
I don't see the problem. If you retreat from a battle, you automatically get the "Hesitant" attacker vice. That's not a bug or poor implementation - other than your poor implementation of an attack http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The idea is to penalize you if you use feint attacks, or if you are not committed to an attack to carry it through. Don't want the vice on your king - fight the battle. Don't want to worry about the possibility of withdrawing, then use a crummy general and let him get the vice.

Grifman[/QUOTE]

except for the fact that feints are a very practical part of warfare, regardless of how total or ancient or whatever. And the fact that a general can courageously lead lead his army to victory, pulling off a daring flank, etc. and get nothing to show for it.

While I'm at it, why do I get so many captured heirs? sometimes its nice for the morale bonus, but seriously, how bad is our palace security? My heirs must get kidnapped 3-4 times in their youth before they've ever actually seen battle, or turned 15.

[Papa Bear!]

Quote Originally posted by Yoko Kono:
this is perhaps one of the only negative vices i beleive you SHOULD get instantly
i suspect it was put in stop feint attacks, something you could do on shogun to ensure your actual battles were extremely easy and versus minimum troops
the failure of shoguns ai to deal with this `easy` way to conquer fedual japan has been offset in MTW by this virtue
if you feel cheating the ai in this manner is essential then simply send in a general who u never actually intend to send into battle[/QUOTE]

uh, actually it wouldn't be a factor at all if the AI didn't cheat by redistributing its troops in the first place.

[solypsist]

your posted pics don't seem to be working..or is it just me?
if it's not my error, this will be deleted in 24 hours.

[Papa Bear!]

I'm a little confused about that.

The pics aren't working for me either, but the thread still seems enjoyable enough. I'm new to the org, so maybe I'm not familar with your policies, but why would you delete a thread with active discussion in it? (original poster's failings aside)

[Captain Fishpants]

Inbred in middle age: the explanation is simple when you think about it.

The man has always been inbred, but this has only become widely known after he has taken off his socks in public for the first time. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

MikeB ~ CA

[Akka]

The V&V's system is very good ; it gives more colour and personnality to the game, and reminds that in these times, it was more a question of leadership and personnal power/loyalty than a big bureaucracy.
I like the fact that someone can have different strong and weak points.

Though, there is some flaws. First, the battle vices come too early, and somehow stupidly : you attack a province defended by 100 peasants with 300 byzantine infantry. Not a bad move. Then the AI is allowed to move 800 spearmen, 400 MAA, 120 feudal knights, 300 crossbowmen and 300 moutned sergeants from the other side of the sea, through navy.
Now, what is the stupid move ? Attack or retreat ? A good general is the one that knows when to retreat and when to attack, not one that attack all the way even against utterly hopeless odds. I would rather blame a general that waste 300 of my soldiers in a dumb attack rather than one that save them from certain death. "Hesitant" should only apply when the AI does not bring reinforcements.

Second flaw, and for the same reason, the general that retreat in battle when it's obvious he will loose. BLAM, "coward". I mean, is EVERY general who ever lost a battle flagged for the rest of his life as a coward ? It should only given after 2-3 retreats, or after a retreats when your army is at least half bigger than the one you face.

Third flaw, the definitiveness of the V&V. As some has pointed out, you can change over life, and a retreat while young should be something you could make up later.

Last flaw finally, and most obvious one : you can be flagged with contradictory V&V. Just look at this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
http://zanath.free.fr/MTW/vv.jpg

[This message has been edited by Akka (edited 10-22-2002).]

[Sword_Monkey]

Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:
While I'm at it, why do I get so many captured heirs? sometimes its nice for the morale bonus, but seriously, how bad is our palace security? My heirs must get kidnapped 3-4 times in their youth before they've ever actually seen battle, or turned 15.

[/QUOTE]

LMAO, this is what has occurred to me as well. What exactly is going on the every other heir has been kidnapped at some point? I can understand this if he has been captured and ransomed back, but as a random Vice at onset? It should be extremely rare.

[Papa Bear!]

Personally I've had my general stand atop a hill, (with a prince by his side), and bravely cut holes through entire formations of spearmen before eventually routing after his unit, and my whole army, were reduced to nothing...

yet he was still eager to retreat...
He probably gained at least 2 valor from that fight, but he was eager to retreat... perhaps thats the key?

Perhaps, so long as you gain some valor, you shouldn't get bad military vices? (I wish valor was as easy to earn in MTW as it was in STW).
I get units that earn a pt of valor, that only kill/cap their number of casualties, (say 20), and then I get units that kill well over their total unit limit, and they get nothing.

Does the engine record not only kills/caps but type of troops faced?

[Pragmatic]

Quote Originally posted by Mount Suribachi:
My Doge got "builder" twice, which was annoying, rather than upgrading "builder" to the next highest virtue[/QUOTE]

You'll note that one of those "builder" virtues is that of a governor (applies only to the province they rule) and one is that of the ruler (applies to the empire as a whole). I've had this happen. I think it's a bug. It happens when an heir is in the same province as the governor, and instead of the governor picking up the "builder (governor)" virtue, the heir (or possibly king) picks it up instead.

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:
uh, actually it wouldn't be a factor at all if the AI didn't cheat by redistributing its troops in the first place. [/QUOTE]

If we are to believe the devs, then the AI doesn't 'cheat' anymore. In STW it did.

But still it is very anoying that the great general you have, who by chance doesn't give any positive moralebonus (he is a fighter and tactician, not a gentle and caring general), get Hesistant when you move enough forces in that should win, but then the AI randomly moves in massive reinforcements.
If you had moved in forces enough to defeat that army, then if the AI had not moved in the reinforcements, you would end up with a no-fight situation. That we don't want, it is more fun to win by victory.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[The Knight 2100]

You know, I like the idea of vices, and virtues, and I think that they really make the game different from STW. It is quite awkward however to see someone have unbribable, and no principles.
Too bad a lot of my heirs are real scum bags...

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"My work is nto a piece of writing designed to meet the taste of an immediate public, but was done to last forever." -Thucydides

[muffinman14]

One time i saw the pope was a heretic. I knew at this time popes were bad but im not sure that a heretic would get to be pope.

[Duke of Cornwall]

Oh yes they would ! Heretics and much worse besides. Check the histories if you want.

Anyway, back to V&Vs - one of my pet peeves, and here's why:
1. Not all explained (Health anyone ?)
2. Poor presentation - only 4 are immediately visible. The rest are tucked away on a second screen and have to be mentally computed.
3. Many are not implemented correctly (e.g. Most Eloquent does not grant +2 Acumen).
4. They can be contradictory (as has already been mentioned).
5. They can be irrelavent (as has already been mentioned).

In short - good idea but very poorly implemented. Needs serious sorting.

[solypsist]

http://solypsist.homestead.com/files/gilles-de-rais.jpg
Oct 26 1440
Gilles de Rais, one of the wealthiest noblemen in all of France, is executed for heresy after he is found to have engaged in the kidnap, s****y, and murder of 200 young boys from the lower classes. Rais enjoyed mas**r***ing on the stomachs of the boys as they died a painful death, and sometimes necrophiled with the resulting corpses.


sorry about the editing, but I had to keep it rated PG-13 else a few Rebels-Without-A-Clue might become indignant. -Soly

[Papa Bear!]

Soly you have 3708 posts? I think you're a spammer!

Spamming aside, uh, what was I gonna say?

Ahh yes, recently as the Polish I attacked the french, and after 2 successful offensives against them, the Pope excommunicated them. They'd yet to lift a finger in counter attacks... Hilarious no? I rather felt bad for them... (and the game put me in a hot spot, you see I often explain things to my girlfriend to make the game seem interesting, and complex and dynamic, etc... but for the life of me I couldn't really explain excommunication, [she was already familar with this act], of someone who had simply been invaded by me.

I think I hurt her interest in the game and its "realism" there... Sucks, I've been nurturing her non-existent gamer thinking for so long... trying to get her into this stuff! MTW/CA you've ruined ME!


On a side note, I don't myself understand why in the h&| | they would get excom'd... I mean I know the polish were REALLY catholic, but gimme a break... Poor Poor french... nobody really likes them.

(as a side note why does he say he'll focus his agents against our new mutual enemy, (the french), then shortly thereafter begin a huge inquisistion in my lands?)

[MizuKokami]

in my last campaign, the pope was allied with me and the french. the french attacked me, and the pope cancelled his alliance with them. i then started to attack back, but the pope chastised me by telling me to cease hostilities, for five years i let the french attack me, without attacking back, and still the french weren't excomunicated. i said screw it, and decided i had enough forces to roll over the french. immediately i was excumicated, tho the pope was still my ally. promptly my zealous, near 100% catholic provinces revolted. hmmmmm.it's a shame i had to take the pope(the fake pope) down. so i wonder, could my lack of influence i had with my king at the time been the reason i was excuminicated instead of the french?