Possible Siege defending exploit? Or just a sneaky trick?

[Porter Trill]

I can't really tell if this a bug or not or if most people already know about this. I more or less discovered this by accident.

I was playing as egypt on the Grand Campaign on maximum difficutly. After taking Constantinople, the pope called a crusade on me. After many, many, many years and even more seige battles, I got pretty darn good at defending myself in such a situation. One thing I found by accident, while trying to use flaming cataputs to burn enemy rams....is that if I move 1 unit of catapults outside my gate at the beginning of the battle (i originally did this to get a clear shot to burn up rams and siege towers, sacrificing the unit in the process) and park it a few paces in front of my gate...enemy rams cannot get by. At all. The ramming unit will collide with the artillery and both crews will duke it out for a bit. My unit usually dies pretty quickly, but the ram cannot further advance past my abandoned machine. If i manage to burn all the seige towers...all they have left is their own artillery (which I sack quickly with mamluks or arab cavarly) and ladders....and we all know how well ladders actually work, especially by themselves against a huge city.

If the enemy has mulitple rams, they still cannot get by the traffic jam of abondoned wooden thingsbut they try, ususally getting the new ram burned in the process. I tried this in a few other situations later in the game, i used other artillery such as ballistas and it worked as well. Apparently, you can use rams to go after other sections of wall (i've only done this vs. small wooden castles, not sure if it works on stone walls). And of course, the enemy can go for one of your other gates, but the AI has never even tried anything like this.

Anyone else have any experience with such things? I'm sure this does nothing in MP vs. a real opponent.

Oh, and 1 important thing, leaving your own castle during a siege can sometimes backfire as your army leaves the gate open the whole time, letting the enemy in. I found that when i send cav and arty through the gate, don't leave any defending units anywhere near the gate, as this keeps it open. I wish you could control exactly when the gates open and shut.

[PBI]

Interesting trick. Generally it is quite easy to stop rams via an exploit if you send any unit out to engage the unit pushing the ram; the AI will almost never pick up the ram again and carry on. This exploit seems even better though; if you push a pair of catapults through the gate, and dump them such that there's no room for a ram to pass on either side, I can't see what even a human player could do about it since only another catapult crew would be able to move them. The AI would be completely sunk since I've never seen it attempt to attack another gate, but I suppose a human player would; however, nothing to stop the defender from sending the catapult crew out to pick them up, march them through the inside of the city, and dump them again outside the other gate.

I suppose you could send a sacrificial unit to park on the catapults and kill the crew if they come near; still a huge inconvenience to move the entire army 90 degrees around the city plus almost certainly lose the unit guarding the catapults. I imagine I would be fuming if someone did this against me.

Oh, and ramming walls is only possible against towns and motte & bailey castles, which barely offer much in the way of defense anyway.

[Old Geezer]

I wondered how that lone unit of Mongol HAs got into Antioch after I had sallied out the back and destroyed thier trebs and rockets. My stupid general must have stood too close to the gate and invited them in.

[Galain_Ironhide]

A very interesting observation with the catapaults as an exploit. Must say I have never thought of that one. Good job.

However, I must say I probably wouldn't use it. As these days, I'm more into using house rules to make the AI a bit more competitive. Otherwise battles become a little too 'rinse and repeat' after a while.

I have also had a stray unit (normally HA's) of my own inadvertantly open the gates for the enemy every now and then. I once lost a siege battle against the Mongols due to this. I was massively outnumbered, but had my gates stayed shut, I could have easily bled them out and won. Certainly made it all the more interesting anyway.

[Ramses II CP]

Yeah, this is a good old trick. You don't have to let the ballista crew die (I always use a ballista since it's easier to move them around the gates); just have them abandon the implement in the gateway and no ram can get past it.

A slightly less exploitative trick is simply to attack the ram crew and then retreat. The AI will abandon the ram even if you don't kill a single member of the crew and 99% of the time they won't pick it back up or send a new crew forward. You can do this over and over for multiple rams.

FYI the AI is pathetic at sieges. It's literally broken IMHO. Just wait until you see them try to capture huge walls with a siege tower.

:egypt:

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's easier to use the Holy Cross unit (crusader mercenaries with a wooden cross) to block the inside of a gate, drop the equipment, and turn them into a wall unit.

Also, those Milanese "standard" units can do the same thing. Even if it doesn't totally block access, it severely cramps the opening and allows your units to have the "local numbers advantage", where even though the enemy force is massive, you've bottlenecked the opening enough to slaughter whatever comes through with minimal casualties.

Trying to get through the gate itself is tiring for units, because once the lead unit starts "fighting", all adjacent units begin to tire as well, and they're being fired upon by the towers and not making forward movement.

Also, guys, I really want to share this one with you: It's very effective.

Take a very large, decent morale infantry unit that is mostly effective at DEFENSE, and put them in a standard sized formation, on DEFEND mode, right behind the gates, but with a little room left over so that there's an opening on both sides.

If you have some to spare, put another one behind it, exactly the same way, on "hold your ground" mode. They will maintain formation and not fight until they are being attacked, which conserves strength.

Now, on both flanks, have units that are vicious on offense, but maybe dont have the best defense. Who cares? You need offensive power here. Axemen, billmen, anything with a really vicious streak. Put them on both flanks, but NOT in defense mode.

Put your remaining reserves on the walls, keep your general planted behind the defensive infantry, also on guard mode. Now, when the wall assault fails due to laddermen sucking out loud, and the seige tower men, if any, are too busy fighting on the walls to intervene, eventually the ram will break through, and their main forces and their general will attempt to move through the gate.

Their lead unit, hopefully depleted from missile fire, will be tired from using the ram, and their morale may be beaten down, being so close to your general and also because upon entering your settlement they begin attacking what is directly in front of them (to little effect) and then they are ambushed on both sides by vicious, aggressive forces which begin to erode what's left of them. This puts them into a wavering or shaken mode almost instantly, and when they attempt to rout, they cannot!

Their own forces are bunched up, trying to move forward, and they aren't fighting effectively and their fellow units lose morale and become tired. They lose more men to tower fire and wall losses, and your own men lose few troops and their morale increases.

Already, the entire battle looks bad for the attacker, and the real engagement is only mere seconds into melee fighting. If you can manage to get 2 or 3 units to rout, or slay their general (also easy using this method... too much infantry/spearmen, and usually the general cannot get his whole unit through at once, making each individual man an easy target...) it creates a mass rout.

Now, I HOPE you brought some light cavalry. Chase down the SOB's and kill them all! Get some massive experience in the process, and add some heroic defender traits to your general.

I really wish the AI were more aggressive. I'd make one great defender... but dangit, I'm usually forced to attack. Can anyone recommend a mod with beefy, aggressive AI?

VeryHard/VeryHard on all my current mods isn't hard enough to satisfy me. I want to risk losing for once! In fact, I'd like it very much if I got excommunicated and I got the Pope to call a Crusade against me, but even that doesn't happen very much even when I'm being a sick, evil bastard.

SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME.... I want to fight defensive battles for a change!

[Porter Trill]

yeah, i pretty much stopped using this technique after I perfected it, as it makes the game too damn easy. About half the time I manage to burn rams anyway with static settlement defenses. If they bring it with their own artillery, I have a good time sallying out with cavalry and sacking it, and causing general chaos in the lines. Doesnt' work as well if they bring a ton of xbows, but then again, it shouldn't.

Has anyone made any observations on defending seige engines inside castle walls? I set my arty on fire at will and they get a fireing icon, but they never seem to be actually shooting at the attackers. I'd like for something like a cannon, mortar or catapult to be able to fire at rams and towers and such so i have to chance to burn them up. This never seems to happen. Am i posistioning them so the trajectory is impossible, or is it just not possible anyway you position them? If the assaulter is taking his damn sweet time, I sometimes send arty through my side door to fire at them from the flank, but that takes a while to setup.

Do certain seige engines move faster than others?

Is there an optimal posistion for Handgun type infantry on rampart walls? I put them up there and they never seem to rack up any kills in a defending seige, while my archers rock the house. Naffatun is just cruel.

The computer REALLY can't beat me in seiges at all if i''ve made the minimal perparations. And i'm only talking Cities, large and huge. If I have a Fortress or Citadel, there is no chance. Only challenge is with the Timurids and if they have super long range monster bombards. My walls dont' last long vs. them.

[PBI]

Am i posistioning them so the trajectory is impossible


Probably; high trajectory artillery like trebuchets and mortars can normally fire out at the attackers just fine and are the only arty worth their salt on the defensive.



Is there an optimal posistion for Handgun type infantry on rampart walls?

In a word, no. The optimal position for gunners is anywhere but the walls, they just don't fire properly due to being obstructed by each other and the crenelations. Unless you mean the actual hangunners, in which case they are OK as wall guards due to their decent melee stats. Won't kill anyone with their guns though.

ATPG, you could try doing a defensive campaign, where you simply don't attack any other factions and do everything you can to make them hate you, without actually taking any cities, just trying to keep your original holdings. I tried (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=101734&highlight=defensive+campaign) it a while ago as the Byzantines; it actually got quite tricky once all my neighbours were at war with me, I basically had three fronts and only enough money for one, maybe two field armies. Lots of good skin-of-my-teeth type defensive siege victories against enormous odds. I guess the extreme turtling style required might be anathema to your blitzing sensibilities however.

[Askthepizzaguy]

"Defensive... campaign?" looks at Poor Bloody Infantry like a dog looks at a tape recorder with his owner's voice on it

I am unfamiliar with the concept of a campaign that doesn't involve the brutal slaughter of the innocent. How does it work? Reads more...

I see... just maintain your original holdings, eh? But what about those tempting rebel provinces nearby, don't I just HAVE to get those? Especially before the AI does... and then the AI declares war on me with a ship or a pathetic invasion force, which I must punish by counter-assaulting them, declaring a jihad and wiping everything off of the map.

So you see, I'm great at playing defense. No one can assault my good territories when their homelands are reduced to ashes and their people have all been either burned at the stake or sold into slavery. I'm a master of defense.

Looks "defense" up in a dictionary ...I see... I'm supposed to restrain myself. Restrain.... restrain... restrain... KILL! KILL! KILL!!! Die infidels! May the Mighty Wrath of Allah smite you and condemn your faithless carcass to the burning lake of fire for all eternity!!!

calms down. I'd much rather have a completely vicious, relentless and unfair AI to chew up with my meat grinder and bludgeon with my war axe, instead of restrain myself, but... BUT... I will give your suggestion a try. Here's what I plan to do: I will get a Catholic faction with a good mix of forces, and turn my reputation "Despicable" and my relations with all other factions atrocious, get excommunicated, and let the Crusade work it's magic.

Stands with a group of his men in the castle of Bern

"Come and get me, you cowards! I will personally destroy every last one of you! DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!!!"

[Eikon the Magistrate]

The old ballista-in-the-way trick works pretty well, abit cheap after the 50th or so time hehe....
Idk if destroying it would remove it from the path of a ram, you can destroy a ram that is blocking the way tho.

RE: firing over walls is not possible w/o the correct siege epuipment; ballista,catapults,ribaults,cannons wont fire over the wall because they lack the trajectory. Perhaps in some settlements cases it could technically be possible if you have a hill someplace. Mortars and Trebs can fire over the walls easily. A treb cannot be moved through a gate tho :thumbsdown:


In a word, no. The optimal position for gunners is anywhere but the walls, they just don't fire properly due to being obstructed by each other and the crenelations. Unless you mean the actual hangunners, in which case they are OK as wall guards due to their decent melee stats. Won't kill anyone with their guns though.

Depending on the style of the settlement, you may or may not have an area to place a gun unit where it can actually fire on the enemy. There are some fortresses/citadels that afford for gunners on the wall but only in small areas and usually only on the 2nd or 3rd set of walls,even so the most gunners I observed firing in that situation was 6 or 10% of unit size, Not all that good. Ive yet to see a city with such areas however. The (crenelations(?)ie: thingies for your troops to hide behind) are usually to close together. Soo PBI is right, and you shouldnt try to garrison gun units to defend anything, unless you always sally.

Changing OP abit, but does everyone always sally attack the AI? I usually sally for cites and sit and wait in fortresses/citadels.Not like either way they stand much chance but the scenery changes abit :2thumbsup:

[Ramses II CP]

I always, always sally, and always immediately. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Even if you can't drive them off, you can usually reduce their armies such that they have no chance against a second sally, and won't even attempt an assault. The only time I wouldn't sally is if I had a city with no ranged or cavalry units and a heavy ranged unit AI siege army.

You don't see that situation often, that's for sure.

:egypt:

[PBI]

I generally only sally if my garrison is almost all cavalry, since cavalry are useless in seige defense; but I generally wouldn't sally if my army is mostly infantry, seems like giving up the advantage of the walls for nothing to me. Especially since the AI on M2TW seems much more willing to assault than it was in Rome, where it only ever assaulted if it had massive superiority. Defensive seiges are such a rareity that I almost never pass up the opportunity for one.

The one time I definitely do sally is when cannon towers are involved; the beseiging army starts within range of the towers and mostly gets wiped out just moving out of range. Can even just do this and then end the battle without actually sallying out for a draw.

I had a nasty shock the other day though attempting a cavalry sally raid on a beseiging army in BC, to try and take out their heavy infantry before the assault. Expecting the usual dumb vanilla sally AI to stand around passively while I charged their units piecemeal, I was instead taken aback when the entire army swooped down and annihilated my pitiful cavalry force.