View Full Version : killing horse archers
Paco 2 Chihuahuas
10-22-2002, 22:42
What is your favorite method of doing away with these guys? This brings me the most happiness, moreso than running down heavy cav. I have to lure them into a trap if I can, and if the battle allows it. Do horse archers seem to be super fast, maybe a little too fast?
Exploit the way that the AI works.
If you order an unit to chase them around,
they will run away, and even the fastest
light cavalry will have to chase them at
least 'till the edge of the map. But send
a well armoured, large shield infantry unit
slowly at them, and then order some light
cavalry to trot (ctrl-R) behind them. They
will not notice the Jinettes (best light,
forget that, best cavalry unit) until it is
too late.
As for them being too fast, it only makes
sense. They can afford to have the fastest
horses, and the lightest equipment of all
cavalry. A horse archer was an unit that
had no real counter in history, and if the
game was modelling missiles units correctly,
the only way to keep them at bay would be
to have longbowmen behind spearmen.
TomThumbKOP
10-22-2002, 23:23
I don't think they are any faster than light cav, but they are as fast so they are hard to run down, Generally, I take them out with archers/Arbelesters.
Yes, footarchers and other non-mounted ranged units do seem to be the best counter.
They are cheaper, more numerous and a smaller target. The Horse Archers simply don't have a chance against them.
Light cav that get close enough to the HA will eventually catch them as they both run at 24, but charges at 26. And as we know running away is not the same as charging.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Gringoleader
10-22-2002, 23:50
I agree with a shooting policy. They don't tend to be good as missile troops per se, so they don't warrant much attention.
Warmaker
10-23-2002, 10:22
Missile units are effective counters. If you really need to negate the HA effects send fast, light cavalry. Steppe Cavalry for instance is cheaper than HA and are FAST. Eventually, they'll catch those annoying HA's.
HA's are quite annoying if you don't have light cavalry to act as a screen. It's a horrible waste to send RK/Kataphractoi/etc. to chase down HA's.
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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!
martin4444
10-23-2002, 11:01
arbelasters will do just nicely. horse/camel based unit does not last longer then a few rounds from 4 units of arbelasters. on the other hand the AI lack sadly in inteligence anyway.
as far as in the early era? hmmm, bit harder to kill em.. run em down with cavalary or send some infantry chasing after them.. oh sure they will never catch up with them..but the purpose of that is to just keep em running around while you decimate the rest of his army..
[This message has been edited by martin4444 (edited 10-23-2002).]
I don't think the footarchers and other non-mounted ranged are the best counter to the mounted archer, because Instead of archer dueling with that unit.. the mounted archer should elect to charge non-mounted range units. (dueling with them would be foolish) I believe that if you had a screen of spear/pike units to reinforce the foot archers may have a chance. Also I think light cavalry in conjunction with foot archers maybe effective. Keep the light cavalry at hand to charge the mounted archers once they are committed in melee with your foot archers, or better yet use Royal Knights to quickly route those mounted archers once and for all.
anymapkoku
10-23-2002, 11:38
I love it when people harass me with cav archers. I simply ignore them or send a spearmen out to harass them.
Counter them with an archer unit out front at them. Horses are a bigger target and they will die faster than your foot soldiers. Just make sure you have a spear unit behind to allow the archers to run behind if the horses charge you. In a arrow war, horses lose.
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Don't be in a rush to die!!
Quote Originally posted by dej2:
I don't think the footarchers and other non-mounted ranged are the best counter to the mounted archer, because Instead of archer dueling with that unit.. the mounted archer should elect to charge non-mounted range units.[/QUOTE]
Trust me, Horse Archers are really bad in melee. I had Trebz kill two HA units in melee, and you Archers will win if simply because there are more of them.
The HA charge is not really very good.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Trust me, Horse Archers are really bad in melee. I had Trebz kill two HA units in melee, and you Archers will win if simply because there are more of them.
The HA charge is not really very good.
[/QUOTE]
In short, Treb Archers are a great counter to those pesky Horse Archers. Their bowfire is much more effective in a arrow duel, and they are a bit tougher hand to hand than your average archer.
Sorry all you Western European factions http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Just stick to mowing them down with your bog standard archers.
On a side note, I find the mounted crossbowmen much more annoying ! Their ammo lasts for ever and they take a bit more shooting than the HA's while being almost as hard to pin down and slaughter in a melee. Grrrrr.
Crossbowmen... as a great lover of the archer and his steed, my greatest plague is Crossbowmen, they cut down 6-7 men with each volley, and they even cut my lads down when i move them around quickly...
i NEVER send Mounted Crossbowmen and Horse archers into a melle... what fool does that?
Boyars and Byzantine Cavalry are different... they are special, they will send enemy archers fleeing from the field (not to mention some of their lighter cavalry and lighter infantry)
[This message has been edited by Stu35 (edited 10-23-2002).]
GAH!
Ignore them! They will run off and bitch-slap themselves when they run out of arrows. Its not like you'll take a lot of damage from them anyways...
GAH!
Sadly Vanya is right... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
I love Horse Archers, but they are simply not worth the money.
They are few, they die to almost all ranged, they are expensive, can't melee anyhting but Peasants which will take too much of a chunk out of them and don't kill enough firing from a range.
As Turk I go for the Turcomans at once! At least they can fight a little and they have shields giving them a little protection from both arrows and in melee.
What was it... Magyar only just managed to beat Gil in an MP battle with Horse Archers against infantry. That is sad. I remember how he used to wipe the forum clean of opposition to his all cav army.
Now I think that is over.
Boyars and Byzantine Cavalry are scary when the AI have them, but utterly deadly when you have them yourself.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 10-23-2002).]
Mithrandir
10-24-2002, 01:00
I ussually dont bother with them until the battle is already close to victory, then I send in every unit I have, otherwise on the rare occasions I have more troops, or can spare one, I just send one after them, if they're slow they'll take more punishment but they'll do get the same result (lest they be peasants) ; the CA routing. The retreating again and again really takes its toll on their morale...
so in short, chase 'em, dont worry to much bout them, or just create a little archery duel which they'll lose anyway.
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DragonCat
10-24-2002, 02:55
BAH!
They are very effective in MP. People forget about them and then you can hit their rear or flanks with them once you're out of arrows.
However, after reading about the Jinettes in another thread, I may change my MP tactics and that those instead.
BAH!
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DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!
anymapkoku
10-24-2002, 09:38
Dragon I've got a question:
Why would anyone let you hit their flanks with your cav?
RabidMonkey
10-24-2002, 09:46
Maybe this is why the mongols are such a joke in SP campaign. The first time i played the russains and saw huge stacks of them massing on the borders i freaked, but a few turns later and i was laughing! 10+ units of HA being chased all over the map in opposite directions is hilarious to see, you gotta wonder how the mongols even made it out of mongolia with tactics like that! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
andymate
10-24-2002, 12:16
yeh i reckon mongols are annoying though, i had to fight 14 units of there horse archer and it took me 30 min to kill half of em. coz they just run away. I didnt have any cav at that time coz they just jumped into my province when they appeared for the first time and all i had was inf.
Mithrandir
10-25-2002, 20:59
They're pathetic...
I faced the horde with just 15 units...
First wave came, 16 units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif of Mongol Heavy Cavelry, I wavered, but my men didn't, had quite a few spear units, after routing them without much problems, th rest was a piece of cake...
the prob with the mongols is that they dont expand their tiny empire fast enough, they should do a massive attack every turn and get more reinforcements...
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The Green Knight
10-26-2002, 17:18
If fighting a defensive battle i have grwon to love HAs. send them out en masse as a screen and they cause all sorts of confusion to the ai. i have kept a hugely outnumbered force safe from mass attack this way for almost the whole battle (until the hAs were routed or out of ammo)
also on attack with HAs i had good success again creating a confused ai response by usi g them asa separate force from my main army. i just love the way that they (most of the time) shoot and run and the ai sends heavy cav and other choice units after them and sometimes you can surround these guys and they get chewed up fast. so i have to disagree that they dont cause damage . i have seen units run away after taking a drubbing from HAs and then be attacked by a cav or infantry unit.
RabidMonkey
10-26-2002, 17:35
I think the mongols might stand more of a chance if they functioned like they did in STW, gaining reinforcments from the land they capture. At least that way they might not just get annihilated after 10 yrs.
And would it be so hard to give them a decent general?!? I find it hard to believe that they conquered asia and then move off to europe with a bunch of newbie generals? Having at least 1 good general could also make them last abit longer.
Because when you think about it, they were poised to take over europe until their khan died, but they aint gonna get even halfway at the moment!
Quote Originally posted by RabidMonkey:
Maybe this is why the mongols are such a joke in SP campaign. The first time i played the russains and saw huge stacks of them massing on the borders i freaked, but a few turns later and i was laughing! 10+ units of HA being chased all over the map in opposite directions is hilarious to see, you gotta wonder how the mongols even made it out of mongolia with tactics like that! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
Because in reality, the mongol composite bow was as powerful as a longbow (and they weren't limited to 28 arrows), they and their horses were armored, they had probably the best horsemanship skills in the world. Each mongol warrior also had to bring a short spear, a long spear, and a short hand to hand weapon (not to mention back up horses and bows). So on average, mongols were probably the best equipped force in europe at the time.
Just an FYI http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
-Shorty
[This message has been edited by Shorty (edited 10-26-2002).]
The mongol horsemen were also very capable of firing their arrows while moving, which is unfortunately impossible in MTW. The mongols' success was pretty much due to their mobility on the battlefield and this suffers greatly from having to stop every time to send an arrow to a western hiney.
chilliwilli
10-26-2002, 20:01
Foot Archers may counter Turcomans and Horse Archers, but there is no counter for Mongol Horse Archers. They are the best horse archers in the game with the exception of maybe Sipahis of the Porte, but Sipahis are slow. Mongol Horse Acrhers can rip through foot archers and horse acrhers alike with ease.
Mith, I agree they should do that for a while, but by the 1300s The Golden Horde wasn't really doing much in Europe besides raiding occasionally. They were at war with other khanates mostly, so their barbarian raider AI is not that bad. I do think it should be changed so that they raid more often though.
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 10-26-2002).]
Coeur De Lion
10-26-2002, 20:10
i hate horse archer i has to lure the in to the corner of a mpa and trap them but it only kills some there so annoying grrr..
Paco 2 Chihuahuas
10-26-2002, 20:28
Well something interesting happend yesterday. I had done away with all the other enemy units when the horse archers were STILL hanging around. I had 3 units of spearman and ordered them into the deep woods. I made a 'U' formation and trapped the archers, killing about a third of them.
Then the HA ran out onto the open field. I ordered my units back to the U. The HA shot about 3 times and then ran all the way off the field.
Quote Originally posted by chilliwilli:
Foot Archers may counter Turcomans and Horse Archers, but there is no counter for Mongol Horse Archers. They are the best horse archers in the game with the exception of maybe Sipahis of the Porte, but Sipahis are slow. Mongol Horse Acrhers can rip through foot archers and horse acrhers alike with ease. [/QUOTE]
Hi chilli... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
You are right that the Mongol HA will defeat most foot archers in melee, I even think Turcomans and Turcopoles as well (basically the same unit), though with great losses and they are quite expensive compared to your archers.
The Mongols are very lucky to get a strong unit such as the Mongol HA, it is basically a fast version of the Mamluke HA at the same cost. They need a little more attention than most.
The powerful HA such as Boyars and Byzantine Cavalry are luckily enough not fast and will get caught by even most heavy cavalry (they charge a little faster than the HA run). Of course archers alone against these guys is simply not very clever.
But all in all, the AI has a hard time desiding when to charge, so even an all archer army can take a big chunck out of the heavy HA.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Papa Bear!
10-27-2002, 05:15
Quote Originally posted by Shorty:
Because in reality, the mongol composite bow was as powerful as a longbow (and they weren't limited to 28 arrows), they and their horses were armored, they had probably the best horsemanship skills in the world. Each mongol warrior also had to bring a short spear, a long spear, and a short hand to hand weapon (not to mention back up horses and bows). So on average, mongols were probably the best equipped force in europe at the time.
Just an FYI http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
-Shorty
[This message has been edited by Shorty (edited 10-26-2002).][/QUOTE]
Well, I believe the research I've done has always suggested that a recurve bow, (the sort that eastern horse archers always used) never had the range or power of an english longbow, it was advantageous while on horseback, however, because a recurve was much shorter, (obviously a 6 ft long bow would be awefully unwieldy while riding on the back of a horse)...
And uh, extra horses? extra arms? armored? Sounds like those mongols were just eastern equivalents of knights. Not so tough in my mind.
Papa Bear!
10-27-2002, 05:23
Quote Originally posted by DragonCat:
BAH!
They are very effective in MP. People forget about them and then you can hit their rear or flanks with them once you're out of arrows.
However, after reading about the Jinettes in another thread, I may change my MP tactics and that those instead.
BAH!
[/QUOTE]
Forgot jinettes, they have to get too close, and they spend too much time aiming their javelins, their only good against targets already pinned down by another unit. (in which case some medium cav for the equivalent cost of jinettes would do just as well with a charge to the rear/flank)...
But turcomans, oh boy! they can be quite potent. As the turks I faced off against the dread almohad horde, (for my first time, not really aware of the true potency of AUM), indeed, reports of their exploits have not been exaggerated. That said, my initial ambush in which I lured them off their hill and got them to charge uphill against my saracens and such... was a failure... But fortunately I had a great number of turcomans in reserve. Right as defeat seemed imminent I began a hit and fade tactic with various groups of turcomans... they beatiful as they're fast enough to avoid the enemy cav, fast enough to run most things down, and their melee/charge can take care of anything that their arrows can't.
Needless to say my turcomans saved the day, arrow barrages crushing the enemy general, his other cav, and then harassing the enemy aum/spearmen until they could abide no more. Then when they break my turcomans truly shine...
I would whole heartedly reccomend turcomans for all your horse archer needs. Siphais of the porte are horrible, I dunno who suggested that. Overpriced and underpowered. (who needs a few horse archers with really heavy armor and defense? that doesn't win battles)
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