Experiance

[Autumn]

So. Anyone know how the experiance system ACTUALLY works?

I know the number of chevrons (0-9) give morale and accuracy, whilst the colour (bronze - gold) denotes the +1/+1 bonus to stats.

But how does the game figure out who gets what? I can't remember how many times I've seen spearmen who've not even moved for the entire battle get exp. whilst heavy cavalry with 200+ kills get none!

It seems totally random!

Pete

[PBI]

Don't know the exact mechanics, but I'm almost certain experience is based on the number of battles a unit has been in as well as how many kills it gets, hence why some units can get a promotion without doing any fighting. I don't think you'll ever see a unit fighting its first battle that doesn't get any kills get promoted.

Also, I know for a fact that kills of routers net less experience than kills of non-routing troops. Hence why cavalry can get hundreds of kills and get relatively little experience (although I still find they get way more than anyone else).

I must say, I've always thought experience for missile units should be based on how many times they fire, not just how many kills they get. You'd think that just firing a lot of arrows would make you better at aiming whether you can penetrate the target's armour or not. Plus it seems silly that artillery get no experience for knocking down walls & towers.

Then again, experience for missile units is pretty much meaningless anyway since it only affects morale and melee damage, not missile damage or accuracy.

[G^2]

I don't know too much about the mechanics of experience, but I know form game play observations that, as PBI stated, chasing routers is the best way to gain experience. Thus, I always have my general and Hoarse Archers chase routers along with other calvary to get those gold chevrons. As for infantry, defending in sieges seems to give them allot of exp. probably because of the funneling effect of Gate houses which allows them to kill large numbers of enemy units before they get can run away.

Just checked the M2TW FAQ which stated that experience raises attack and defense values. 1exp no effect: 2-3 exp plus 1: 4-6 exp plus 2: 7+ plus 3. Also someone called CaptianSolo did an experiment with Longbows and Genoese Xbows against Scottish Noble Pikemen and determined that gold chevron bows kill about twice as many units as bows without chevrons. There was however no information on how experience is accumulated.
Check out FAQ if your interested.

[FactionHeir]

Experience is accumulated by kills. The game tracks the xp for each individual soldier, which is why smaller units (depleted) tend to gain xp a lot faster than full strength units.
This also means that your front usually is more experienced than your back for infantry, but the change in a battle is small because the front 2 ranks are few compared to the total ranks. Also, the front rank tends to die a lot faster due to doing all the fighting, thus reducing the total xp again.

XP is gained from participating in battles (the don't even have to fight at all, but helps) and from killing. There is little distinction between killing a peasant and a swordsman. But I think cavalry killing gives a bit more xp than infantry and routers give a bit less than holders.

[glyphz]

Got my self a Q?
Do the mods (i.e.BC, SS) have a different experience system to vanilla M2TW. Something like, say missile troops exp. does raise missile damage (similar to RTW's experience system)

[FactionHeir]

Its hardcoded

[Old Geezer]

Missile units do gain accuracy with experience. I reported a series of very thorough trials which I ran a few months back which a search of this forum and another should reveal. The increase is not a huge difference for each chevron but is enough to make getting then promoted worthwhile. They get an accuracy bonus for each chevron - not just for each chevron color level. (It may be that the increased accuracy helps to torch siege equipment, but I have no data on that.) There is a very significant difference in accuracy between zero chevron units and level 9s.

[Autumn]

I think I understand. Is that why when you combine units they sometimes lose chevrons because the unit is no longer depleted?

've never noticed the same happen when retraining units, but maybe that's just tardy observation...

I also remember in RTW that when you got units down to 10 men or so they started "levelling up" like crazy. Ahh, those twinkly lights of impending doom :laugh4:

[Old Geezer]

Because I can never tell what will happen, I always save the game in case the donor unit drops chevron level after donating. Once I get a high unit (especially a level 9) I use it as often as possible to raise other units. I had a level 3 unit go gold after one donation last night. Instead of retraining all of the units I can at once, I now just retrain the hightest of a type and use it as the donor. This takes more turns but if you can wait to retrain your units it pays off very well. (A level 9 Border Horse with armor and weapon upgrades can do some serious damage to Mongol and Timurid HAs or other HAs for that matter.) (I have a SS Leon campaign started and am anticipating using upgraded level 9 Jinetes against the Mongols.) Level 9 Hospitaler Knights with upgraded armor and weapons are very very effective against the Mongols heavy cavalry and can even hurt elephants if they get a charge to the posterior of said pachyderms.

[glyphz]

Missile units do gain accuracy with experience. I reported a series of very thorough trials which I ran a few months back which a search of this forum and another should reveal. The increase is not a huge difference for each chevron but is enough to make getting then promoted worthwhile. They get an accuracy bonus for each chevron - not just for each chevron color level. (It may be that the increased accuracy helps to torch siege equipment, but I have no data on that.) There is a very significant difference in accuracy between zero chevron units and level 9s.

I wasn't aware of an accuracy factor for missile units, but it actually does make more sense for experienced missile troops to get more kills by hitting their mark more often. Much thanks, Old Geezer.
Regarding your other post, are cavalry the easiest to reach L9 exp? Using your donor method, how many turns (or maybe battles) before you get your first gold chevron unit? I'm considering trying out your method, but just want to know how hectic it could be

[G^2]

@glyphz

As PBI stated, cavalry are the easiest units to gain experience with mainly because they can chase down routing infantry. Although routers don't give as much experience as killing a non-router, in most battles your prisoners usually out number your actual kills.

@ Old Geezer

Now that you mention it I remember your threads on experience with missile units (which were quite helpful), sorry I didn't mention them in my earlier post.

[Old Geezer]

Cavalry are definitely easier for me to get up to level 9. Before I started extreme donor manipulation it took a lot longer to get up to level 9. I now have been getting some double promotions. Last night I had a cavalry go from level 3 to level 7, because the recieving unit was down to about 6 men. It does require a lot of micromanagement and one is normally limited to doing this only once per turn in a settlement (at least per unit type). One additional note: the plague and rebels are to be welcomed. Yes, welcomed! You gotta get some of these guys to retire so they can get promoted. Even a forlorn attack with no success and few kills is worthwhile. The more men out of a unit the higher that unit can get promoted. This is a shameless, guiltless, fun exploit, if you like the colors silver and gold. Gold chevroned jinetes really are effective against bodyguards - I just wish they had more javelins (might as well have
AK-47s then). In my presen SS campaign is is just over turn 50 and I have several gold chevroned jinetes (at least 4) and a couple of gold mailed knights with several just waiting to get retrained. I have one brand spanking unused Knights of Santiago and will try and remember to keep records of how long promotions take. The problem is that it will take them over 10 years to get anywhere near an enemy, unless I attack one of my "friends" unless some cooperative rebels appear. (I may just use the character_reset "enhanced game function" (cheat) to have a general escort the unit to unfriendly territory. (SS is great, but it is so slow and I have little time left (52 days) to finish 3 current campaigns before I retire and go off camping in the mountains probably to fall into a crack on a 14er in Colorado not to be found until the spring thaw.) (I may have to take my computer to work to finish these.)

In regards to promotions, I have recently fought several battles in one turn with a single army and noticed that the generals never get an effect nor has a unit been promoted twice in a turn. Is this a programmed limit do you think or have I just run into a strange string of circumstances?

[G^2]

@Old Geezer

If you mean by promoted, gaining cheverons and or comand stars, I had a general (Knights Templar SS) last night gain a Heroic Victory over the Fatmids defending a Castle. He captured around 250 enemy troops and killed about 40. Went from one bronze cheveron to three silver cheverons and two comand stars to four. I've also fought more than one battle in one turn and have recieved promotions from each battle (I think).

[glyphz]

If you mean by promoted, gaining cheverons and or comand stars, I had a general (Knights Templar SS) last night gain a Heroic Victory over the Fatmids defending a Castle. He captured around 250 enemy troops and killed about 40. Went from one bronze cheveron to three silver cheverons and two comand stars to four. I've also fought more than one battle in one turn and have recieved promotions from each battle (I think).
I do remember something similar in my old English vanilla campaign vs. Mongols, where a Hobilar unit, whose only role is to chase routers across the bridge (since stakes were placed at my bridge head), went from 2 bronze to 3 silver chevrons (:shocked2: <-- my reaction), for reeling in 205 routers. It had no casualties inflicted but did lose 9 men to "friendly:rolleyes:" stakes and friendly fire. Oh yeah, heroic victory too.:medievalcheers: (automatic, everytime 1 fullstack of yours defeat at least 1 full stack of theirs, too bad heroic battle marks don't appear at bridges or else there would be multiple ones on that one river rossing south of Baghdad :sunny:)

In my presen SS campaign is is just over turn 50 and I have several gold chevroned jinetes (at least 4) and a couple of gold mailed knights with several just waiting to get retrained. I have one brand spanking unused Knights of Santiago and will try and remember to keep records of how long promotions take. The problem is that it will take them over 10 years to get anywhere near an enemy, unless I attack one of my "friends" unless some cooperative rebels appear. (I may just use the character_reset "enhanced game function" (cheat) to have a general escort the unit to unfriendly territory. (SS is great, but it is so slow and I have little time left (52 days) to finish 3 current campaigns before I retire and go off camping in the mountains probably to fall into a crack on a 14er in Colorado not to be found until the spring thaw.) (I may have to take my computer to work to finish these.)

In regards to promotions, I have recently fought several battles in one turn with a single army and noticed that the generals never get an effect nor has a unit been promoted twice in a turn. Is this a programmed limit do you think or have I just run into a strange string of circumstances?
Wow. I just downloaded SS 4.1 (no Kingdoms...) 2 nights ago, and after checking each factions initial situations decided to start with the Portugese, so I might have a go with the "Jinetes donation" (no experience with jav cav prior to this).
I did notice 2 things in SS 4.1
1) AI free money - I was not able to wipe-out Spain in 1 go as they got rebel Pamplona before I blitz Leon, Toledo, unfortunately they keep pumping out mailed knights while having another 1 and 1/2 stacks, despite only having 1 settlement (a Castle no less). I, on the other hand, am struggling trying to keep 3 half-stacks of my own (majority spear militia + mercs, jinetes) despite me owning 9 settlements just in Iberia( 1 castle , Toledo; 8 cities/towns, 5 have ports)
2) More traits - I'm fine with that, except so far I find one really really annoying, "Overconfident" (-3 Command). :furious3:Four of my 5 generals gained this trait out of nowhere, including one general (5 command) that I decided to swipe from the Spanish with my princess, who after 1 turn of doing so got the trait :wall::wall::wall: <-- seriously!

[G^2]

@ glyphz

I never got the over confident triat, in SS I play 6.1 with kingdoms so maybe that is why. My characters do however get phenophia (sp) alot which is very annoying. Also the AI gets ALOT of extra cash. Usually, when I take over an AI province it is more developed than my own, this along with Lusted's improved AI make for an awsome game.

[glyphz]

@ glyphz

I never got the over confident triat, in SS I play 6.1 with kingdoms so maybe that is why. My characters do however get phenophia (sp) alot which is very annoying. Also the AI gets ALOT of extra cash. Usually, when I take over an AI province it is more developed than my own, this along with Lusted's improved AI make for an awsome game.

Yeah, I bet SS 6.1 is so much better, more fine-tuned than 4.1 (which is why it is 2 numbers higher 6 > 4 :jester:). Besides, 6.1's campaign map OWNS! I drooled when I saw it. (I :heart: maps) I much prefer its expanded Eastern side, and getting rid of the not so impressive Americas. CA got me fooled on that one.
Cheers!:medievalcheers:

[Old Geezer]

Last night I had an army which fought multiple battles in one turn (about 6) by using the character_reset cheat. I did have the general attain more than 1 instance of getting a trait during that one turn; however, the second trait was something to the effect of severely wounded with the result of reduced hit points and -25 percent to movement. I also had a unit get 1 or more chevrons a second time (in another battle) that turn.

Regarding recombining units to get them chevron promotions, last night I got 3 chevrons of promotions by recombining 2 mailed knights. One level 3 went to level 5 and the donor went from a level 7 to a level 9 when donating troops! (This is almost as good as sliced bread or compound interest.) This must be due to the supurb reorganization of cadre within the units and inspiring speeches by our beloved, glorious leader.

[Dead Guy]

I always merge like that too... but does the average exp of the unit determine how well each soldier fights or does every individual soldier fight according to their own invisible chevrons if you get my point? If so it's almost better to take a charge to the rear, from one strange perspective :p

[Old Geezer]

I am disposed to believe that it the average and each individual is not tracked; however, if that is so, why does a unit sometimes lose experience when a couple of men are killed? If each man is tracked that must mean each man has an ID and an experience stat. which would mean some detailed/expensive programming it would seem (although I am blissfully ignorant regarding such). Maybe that's why the game hogs so much space.

[PBI]

I'm almost certain that the game does track individual soldiers' experience. Hence why the experience sometimes goes down. Similarly, I believe this is why units tend to do better experience-wise in Autocalc; it picks the men killed in the unit at random, while in battle the most experienced are at the front and most likely to get killed. That last bit's just speculation on my part though.

I'm wondering, if the experience is known for each soldier individually, does that mean that the combat/morale bonuses apply differently to each man based on his experience, or does the entire unit fight better because of a few highly experienced individuals?

[HopAlongBunny]

I could be wrong but the engine seems to be a direct lift from RTW.
So the answer is probably found in some of the excellent RTW research done here.

My 2cents:yes:

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