View Full Version : Spearmen are Useless
Thought I'd start another thread as I'm getting thoroughly fed up of the circular arguement raging on the other one.
This is a true story which I thought some of you might find amusing.
I have been coaching my 10 year old through his first MTW campaign(Almohad Early/Easy)after he express a wish to have a go having watched me play for hours.
Anyway, like a good father I have been patiently (and sometimes not so patiently) explaining all the intricate strategies and tactic's. Under my learned guidance Simons empire bribed El Cid and seized Valencia, then bribed Portugal. Allied with the Spanish, Argonese and Egyptians built border forts began to extend its trade routes and started murdering catholic bishops (who says father don't teach their sons valuable skills).
Things were going well. Betrayal by the Spanish led to the seizure of Leon and Castile. The Spanish king was killed and Navarre went rebel and was bribed to become Muslims.
Then came war with France and armies heavy with French Knights. Simon was worried as he has read about knights in his school history books.
Don't worry I said in this game spearmen massacre knights and you have lots of them from all those bribed armies.
Famous last words. First battle Simons 175 spearmen lined up on a slope were attacked by 29 hoblidiers. A protacted battle began which just went on and on and on with the spearmen getting the worst of it. Then a single Royal Knight managed to charge into the back of them and the whole unit broke and ran.
Next battle and Simon had routed the first French attack and was advancing rapidly in pursuit to overrun the French artillery. A unit of his spearmen 149 strong were charged by a catapult crew (11 men) and a single Royal Knight (probably the same one) and after a brief fight routed and were cut down.
Simon was livid. "I thought you said spearmen were good" he said "Spearmen are useless"
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
In a way, both father and son _are_ spearmen.
Hur Hur Hur*
*deep lewd chuckle
Fearless
10-23-2002, 14:55
Hey don't get too upset! I had 200 spearmen on top of a hill and got charged by 120 bog standard archers...................YEP! they destroyed the spearman. What was left, maybe 15, routed leaving 80 plus archers. Just standing there smiling. The archers general was four star........... It still sucks!
Fatigue, general rank, morale penalties due to unit postitioning, etc., you know, anything can happen.
Never use absolutes when talking to kids........ http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
sweet father and son story
as for spearmen, they have a perfect counter unit, horse archers...
Paco 2 Chihuahuas
10-23-2002, 18:13
Were those spearmen Muwahids? Something doesn't seem right. The only problems I've had with spearmen is in not giving the proper order by either mis-clicking near the enemy attackers or not telling them to charge.
Prodigal
10-23-2002, 18:23
Used to think they were ok, but my latest campaign I've seen the same kind of humiliating defeats as Didz. Gimme byzant, or saracen inf., over spearmen anyday.
cart6566
10-23-2002, 18:30
You really need a decent general to get past their morale problem and poor offense. If you had that, probably a different outcome with the lone Royal Knight and for sure with the archers.
Sjakihata
10-23-2002, 18:43
When any unit, which isn't elite, gets charged from behind it will most certainly rout!
Swoosh So
10-23-2002, 18:46
Um ive never seen el cid in the game or maybe i just dont know his real name ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif?
You get a bunch of morale penalties for moving your units around a lot. If you keep giving unit's new directions, they seem to break with ridiculous speed.
Sometimes, the game seems to cause units to rout for no conceiveable reason other than 'excessive' movement (which often is not that excessive at all). I had two units of militia sergeants rout, in a 1000-200 battle against a 1 star enemy general, before the fighting had even started. Apparently, they were "Worried by constant retreat" -- which is how the game was interpreting my repositioning of them into a more advantageous defensive position....
Granted, I was making them trudge uphill, but still....
Oh yeah wait to he goes agaist the Ubur AlmoHead Urban militia. They about wipe out anything one on one.
In fact just got finished in a battle with them where an AUM unit was the commanding general. Took my whole army of 4 Sacaren units, one unit of Swiss Pike, 3 units of Crossbow, 2 units of Heavy Calv to beat this one unit of 60 men. In the end they died but killed over 300 of my Soldiers in the process. Total Bullcrap in anycase.
I probably don't need to mention this, but did you make sure Simon had his spear men "hold formation"? Also his men will not get the hold formation bonus if they were standing in a forest where their ranks will be up broken by trees.
Last of all... Royal Knights are the heaviest armored unit in the game... if any thing a lowley group of spearmen may be able to hold them for a while giving Simon a chance to charge in another unit to flank the Royal Knights (hopfully something that can do some armor damage... axemen, some heavy cavalry. If he has a chance I'd recommend producing some higher quality spear units or pikes would be really nice. Javlins and crossbow men do a nice number on armor, but then you have to contend with protecting them when they get charged.
Cardinal
10-23-2002, 20:25
Tell Simon to watch his flanks, and guard his rear and always have a plan B http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif , unlike his father.
Personally I find my spearmen work brilliantly, and they make up the core of my army until the arrival of feudal Sgt. Form them in a line 3-5 deep and keep 25% in reserve for that flank attack, or to fill in the gaps.
On a final note, I have been trying to teach my young boy some tactics, which he totally ignores and is concequently slaughtered. SO without knowing the outcome of my (ill)advice, I can say "I told you so!" (There is a moral here somewhere).
Seeing as my Byz empire can't build the versatile and all-round wonderful Feudal Sergeants they have to stick with Spearmen.
Train them in provinces with armouries and stack them in with a good general - they won't let you down if you keep them supported.
I use them mainly to engage enemy Cav, enemy light/medium infantry and those pesky armour-piercing units like Milita Sergeants. They won't hold forever, but it gives me enough time to flank attack the "bogged down" enemy with some Byz infantry or even the Varangian Guard fire-fighting unit I try and and keep in any stack.
And as for the daunting french spearmen, Almohad urbans in wedge will slice through like butter.
Like the others said, low honour spears without flank support can get massacred.
TheViking
10-23-2002, 23:24
Have any of u thout of the dread factor.
One of my old royal knites had full dread. Any unit, exept highstar gen units, he countered he routed. After 1 battle he ended with 100+ kills and 200+ prisoners and only lost 7 men
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There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.
Redllama
10-26-2002, 01:18
Definately get him up to the Muwahid spearmen, or even the nubian spearmen. I swear by those Muwahid guys since a particularly nasty pounding, their dedication allowed me emerge victorious. In a standoff type battle, hell any battle, definately keep them in formation. Also remeber to have them charge the enemy just before they close, gives the spearmen a nice boost. Ive also seen it break the approaching enemies lines, which makes for ripe pickings with your horses chasing down retreating foes.
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Power to the people? They wouldn't know what to do with it.
The Yogi
10-26-2002, 01:25
Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Um ive never seen el cid in the game or maybe i just dont know his real name ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif?[/QUOTE]
His name was Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar.
Richard the Slayer
10-26-2002, 01:56
LOL Didz. So I'm confused, are spearmen better than cav or worse? I cant tell becuase so many people argue one way or the other, sounds like balanced units to me! Didz - perhaps the flank charge took out the spearman, most units are notoriously vunerable to a flank attack, especially spearman since they cannot wield swords etc. PS any resemblance to MTW and pure history is coincidental! J/K
How I wish my dad play MTW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
LOL Didz. So I'm confused, are spearmen better than cav or worse? I cant tell becuase so many people argue one way or the other, sounds like balanced units to me! Didz - perhaps the flank charge took out the spearman, most units are notoriously vunerable to a flank attack, especially spearman since they cannot wield swords etc. PS any resemblance to MTW and pure history is coincidental! J/K[/QUOTE]
Well from personal experience 'Spearmen are Useless' and I have learnt not to rely on them in my English Campaign.
Where the confusion arises is that there are numerous other types of spear armed infantry which people generally refer to as spearmen but which are more reliable than Spearmen per se. I've met Saracen Infantry in battle and found them to be very tough.
I'm currently in the process of replacing all my Spearmen with Feudal Sergeant's which are also spearmen but will hopeful hold their own against cavalry a bit better.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Um ive never seen el cid in the game or maybe i just dont know his real name ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif?[/QUOTE]
He is the General of the rebel army that occupies Valencia at the start of the Early Campaign. A brilliant general and well worth the few thousand needed to buy his loyalty.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
anymapkoku
10-26-2002, 05:43
I guess you mean 125 spearmen which if that's the case I'm afraid you're wrong, as they are great units. You have to use them as anti cavalry. Your 125 florins beats an 1100 florin lancer. I'd suggest always having 4 125 spearmen or as cheap as possible.
t1master
10-26-2002, 06:00
what's really sad is that simon is a better general than i... alas http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
I guess you mean 125 spearmen which if that's the case I'm afraid you're wrong, as they are great units. You have to use them as anti cavalry. Your 125 florins beats an 1100 florin lancer. I'd suggest always having 4 125 spearmen or as cheap as possible.[/QUOTE]
I certainly agree in the case of Numidian Spearmen which were very useful during my Almohad campaign but I've had no luck at all with the bog standard christian spearmen.
They certainly stop the enemy cavalry but then get involved in a protracted fist fight until they gradually get worn down and rout. They just don't seem to have the killing power and if faced by enemy infantry they get totally mank'd.
I've actualy stop buying them now and have moved on to Feudal Sergeant's and FMA.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
[This message has been edited by Didz (edited 10-26-2002).]
anymapkoku
10-26-2002, 07:51
Well like I said they're for anti cav purposes. If they're busy fighting infantry which they shouln't be then they're not saving you from cavalry which is what you get them for.
martin4444
10-26-2002, 11:34
never had problem with spearmen, infact I always keep 4-6 units of spear/pike in any given army of mine.
Teach your son to build the following in every province he has conquered. Fort->Town Watch->Keep->Town Guard. AUM=strategy
My AUM in my Almohad campaign (early/normal) slaughters royal knights and kataphraktoi easily. My armies were mostly 33%-67% AUM.
Papa Bear!
10-26-2002, 12:46
Well alot of people would say that using AUM as heavily as you suggest is akin to exploiting a bug, (as most anyone can see that their overpowered)...
And great story, this simon clearly has a knack for understanding the qualities of units. He's right, spearmen are puny cowards, get that boy some heavy knights or something... let him enjoy one of the greatest joys in the game. (watching a superior unit cut through its inferiors like butter)...
Though I'll be expected another thread shortly on how spearmen rule, (when his uber lancers get boxed in and put down by a few groups of em)...
ahh what a beautiful game...
oh and teach him to hate activison... its never too early to instill good discriminatory consumer values in a child... if he doesn't learn from you he'll have to suffer through a million disappointing game releases... (as by the team he's 18 I estimate those, er, forgot children might be reading this, those vile pond amoeba at activision will own 95% of game publishing, and they'll dispense with the notion of patches entirely)
Thought I'd do some basic comparison tests to see how different types of spearmen measure up. These tests were run on map FlatInland20 using 0 Valour spear units v a Valour 0 unit of Knights Templar with absolutely minimal human input. Basically I just ordered the Knights to advance on the infantry and sat back to watch.
Here are the results:
(Sorry keep forgetting this board doesn't handle lists)
C=charge
A=Attack
D=Defense
M=Morale
X=Armour
L=Men Lost
k=Men Killed
R=Result
Unit C A D M X L K R
ILI 5 1 9 2 5 29 70 WON (Italian LI)
MFS 7 2 5 4 3 48 64 WON (Muwahid FS)
NS 4 1 4 2 2 52 75 WON (Nubian)
OFS 5 1 9 2 5 18 69 WON (Order FS)
SI 5 0 9 0 5 22 69 WON (Saracen)
S 5 0 5 0 3 53 64 WON (Spearmen)
(These figures do NOT include losses which might have occured during the rout.)
As you can see none of the spearmen lost but the bog standard Spearmen and Nubians came closest. Armour value seems to have the greatest impact on the infantry losses whilst the cavalry losses seem to be pretty consistent.
Just as a comparison I also tried Peasants and AUM's to see what happened.
Unit C A D M X L K R
P 4-2-4-2 1 103 1 LOST (Peasant)
AUM 3 3 4 2 5 13 4 LOST (Almohad)
(Note: The Almohad routed hence the low losses)
This really confirms the complaints from the spearmen v cavalry lobby. What was also noticeable was that in cases where the spearmen had a Attack factor > 0 they actually counter charged the Knights. Only the Saracens and Spearmen stood to receive the charge.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
[This message has been edited by Didz (edited 10-26-2002).]
Coeur De Lion
10-26-2002, 15:01
speaerman are crap but pikeman are excellent http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Coeur De Lion
anymapkoku
10-27-2002, 04:03
So cavalry lose to spearmen, did anyone not alreayd know this?
Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
So cavalry lose to spearmen, did anyone not alreayd know this?[/QUOTE]
I think the interesting thing is that whilst they lose big time in controlled tests. They don't fare so well in a tactical battle.
So! far in my campaign I would have to agree with Simon 'Spearmen are useless.'
One reason for this can be demonstrated by letting the AI handle the Knights Templars during a controlled test. The AI simply refuses to charge the Spearmen frontally and instead tries to circle round their flank.
If you change the facing of the spear unit to conform the AI just keeps circling and you end up playing 'ring-o-ring-roses' with cavalry.
Transferred to a tactical setting this tendency to use flank attacks and to target Spearmen with missile troops seems to tip the balance and lead to high losses amongst the infantry particularly if they are lightly armed like the Spearman unit.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
anymapkoku
10-27-2002, 05:29
Knights Templar: $750/40men=$18.75 per man
Spearmen: $125/100=$1.25 per man
Hypothetical scenario:
Knights Templar attacks from behind and the spearmen begins defending itself after turning around.
knights Templar wins with let's say 33/40 guys left, while the spearmen has 0/100 left.
KT= 100 kills * $1.25 = $125 enemy florin lost.
Spear= 7 kills * $18.75= $131.25 enemy florin lost.
131.25 > 125
Netgain for Knights templar= -$6.25
Netgain for Spearmen= +6.25
Conclusion: So if the knights Templar manages to stay relatively unharmed during the battle and only takes 7 casualties, while killing 100 spearmen, it loses.
--reaverlisk
anymapkoku
10-27-2002, 05:35
Hypothetical Situation: The KNights templar circles around and does not attack.
Knights Templar= $750 spent
Spearmen= $125 spent
So knight's templar loses 750-125=$625 because it did nothing.
--reaverlisk
Papa Bear!
10-27-2002, 06:31
agreed, I don't think anyone can really argue that spearmen, (in whatever form), aren't effective against cav. I'd like to see some tests of spearmen versus melee'ers though, I think that is a more hotly debated issue.
Are the famed super spearmen, (janns and SAP), really worth it? And do regular spears, feud sgts, saracens, etc. hold up against some footknights or men at arms?
cost for cost, of course, is always the way to test. I'd like to think that at equal cost spearmen lose to melee'ers, but sometimes this doesn't seem to be the case.
(which would of course make spears the uber unit of the game)
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