Yet Another Honor Killing - Caused by.... Western Values? [Archive]

PanzerJaeger

07-08-2008, 15:02

According to the Pakistani Community..

Clayton Co. Police Say Father Killed Daughter to Honor Family

Reported By: Charles Molineaux

A Clayton County man was behind bars Sunday, accused of killing his own daughter. Police said the father was angry because he felt his daughter was disgracing the family. Chaudhry was taken to the Clayton County jail. SideBar

CLAYTON COUNTY, Ga. (MyFOX Atlanta) – A Clayton County man was behind bars Sunday, accused of killing his own daughter. Police said the father was angry because he felt his daughter was disgracing the family.

Investigators said 54-year-old Chaudhry Rashad was so outraged at his daughter, Sandela Kanwal, and her plans for divorce that he killed her after a heated argument at the family's home. Investigators said Rashad confessed to strangling the 25-year-old woman.

"The family is very upset and stressed," said Shahid Malik of the Pakistani American Community of Atlanta.

Malik met with the family Sunday and said they were all traumatized.

Neighbors said the family was generally quiet, but also hard to miss.

"I would see the young lady outside every once in a while dressed in the traditional Muslim gear," said neighbor Jack Hannah.

"The father, he would pray at certain times of the mornings and evenings," said neighbor Cynthia Smith.

Rashad was taken to the Clayton County jail. Police said they interviewed Rashad and he said he killed his daughter as a matter of honor, because he felt her plans for divorce would have disgraced the family.

"She was under depression too and the father was very stressed and under depression," said Malik.

Police said the victim had been in an arranged marriage and hadn't seen her husband, who lives in Chicago, for months.

Malik said arranged marriages are not uncommon for Pakistanis. He said the marriages are usually accepted and successful, although young people living in American might develop problems with them.

"Their minds are changed when they live here due to this system," said Malik.

Rashad is due to go before a Clayton County magistrate Monday.

This story content provided by FOX 5 Atlanta WAGA

You know, he's right. These girls have the privilege of growing up in medieval oppression for most of their lives. Who are they to get a wild hair and, oh I don't know, think and do as they please? It ruins everything their fathers and brothers have worked so hard for...

Seriously though, how sad is this? The poor girl finally decided to take control of her own life (damn Western Society!!!!1) and daddy killed her. I thought you only got killed in such enlightened society if you were nefarious enough to reveal your ankles and get raped.

Fragony

07-08-2008, 15:24

You just have to respect that tankboy, it's culture, pakistani's have it. Now be a good progressive and defend ultra-conservative values or you aren't smart and narrowminded on top of that.

KarlXII

07-08-2008, 15:54

Investigators said 54-year-old Chaudhry Rashad was so outraged at his daughter, Sandela Kanwal, and her plans for divorce that he killed her after a heated argument at the family's home. Investigators said Rashad confessed to strangling the 25-year-old woman.

Apparently this was not about "revealing ankles" this was about a divorce he was angry about, and he went nutty, the guy deserves to be behind bars for killing his daughter, but to think all Pakistanis or Muslims do this is stupid.

"The family is very upset and stressed," said Shahid Malik of the Pakistani American Community of Atlanta.

Malik met with the family Sunday and said they were all traumatized.

Even he is against this.

"The father, he would pray at certain times of the mornings and evenings," said neighbor Cynthia Smith.

Damn Pakistani, practicing Islam. How is this relevant?

Rashad was taken to the Clayton County jail. Police said they interviewed Rashad and he said he killed his daughter as a matter of honor, because he felt her plans for divorce would have disgraced the family.

The guy is a wacko.

"She was under depression too and the father was very stressed and under depression," said Malik.

Funny how you left that out.

HoreTore

07-08-2008, 16:14

drone

07-08-2008, 16:16

There are Pakistanis in Clayton County? :inquisitive: I've been away from Georgia too long...

PanzerJaeger

07-08-2008, 16:20

Apparently this was not about "revealing ankles" this was about a divorce he was angry about, and he went nutty, the guy deserves to be behind bars for killing his daughter,

Yes, this is about a divorce - in a marriage he arranged. And he was angry not because the marriage failed, but because he saw it as a stain on his family's honor (as if anyone gives a... ).

There is a sick mindset at work here. If you cannot see that, I don't know what to tell you. :shrug:

but to think all Pakistanis or Muslims do this is stupid.

Drawing conclusions based on unsubstantiated assumptions is not too clever either. ~;)

PanzerJaeger

07-08-2008, 16:22

Sounds like a typical murder by an angry man. The only reason you say it's an honour killing is because of his nationality, religion and why he was mad.

Honour killings are planned murders, this wasn't planned at all. He got mad and killed. Like thousands of others do.

The reason I say its an honor killing is because the murderer said it was.... an honor killing.

Rashad was taken to the Clayton County jail. Police said they interviewed Rashad and he said he killed his daughter as a matter of honor, because he felt her plans for divorce would have disgraced the family.

Louis VI the Fat

07-08-2008, 16:24

Fragony has got more brains than the entire European left combined. :yes:

Now be a good progressive and defend ultra-conservative values That's the third stage, coming four pages from now. We are still in phase 1.

1 - denial. 'It didn't happen'
2 - relativation. 'Besides, we do it too'
3 - defense. 'And what's so bad about it anyway? And if only we wouldn't have....and if only she would have...and blahblah'

HoreTore

07-08-2008, 16:25

The reason I say its an honor killing is because the murderer said it was.... an honor killing.

Not in the typical definition of honour killings, no. He got mad and killed because of family honour, yes. But this is far from what we usually call honour killing.

I'm filing this under "just another murder/family tragedy".

Viking

07-08-2008, 16:27

What's the new and interesting; what's there to discuss? :inquisitive:

Tribesman

07-08-2008, 16:29

So does this mean the family was really fitting in , instead of a good'ol boys shotgun wedding to preserve the family honour its a shotgun divorce .

The reason I say its an honor killing is because the murderer said it was.... an honor killing.

And if he had said god told him to do it would you say it was a devinely instucted murder ?

PanzerJaeger

07-08-2008, 16:35

So does this mean the family was really fitting in , instead of a good'ol boys shotgun wedding to preserve the family honour its a shotgun divorce .

Please refer to #2. Thank you.

1 - denial. 'It didn't happen'
2 - relativation. 'Besides, we do it too'
3 - defense. 'And what's so bad about it anyway? And if only we wouldn't have....and if only she would have...and blahblah'

(Oh, and you may want to update you're relativist inventory. Shotgun weddings went out of style in the 70's.. the 1870s that is.)

Fragony

07-08-2008, 17:11

Fragony has got more brains than the entire European left combined. :yes:

That's the third stage, coming four pages from now. We are still in phase 1.

1 - denial. 'It didn't happen'
2 - relativation. 'Besides, we do it too'
3 - defense. 'And what's so bad about it anyway? And if only we wouldn't have....and if only she would have...and blahblah'

Man I never get tired of you rubbing me up right there, yes I know vanity

Geoffrey S

07-08-2008, 17:23

And? Terrible as it may be, the best thing to be done is done in these cases - make sure that Western justice systems do not tolerate such acts on their home soil. No need for excuses or accusations based on culture, just prosecute and incarcerate. That's Western culture.

Fragony

07-08-2008, 17:25

Geoffrey S

07-08-2008, 17:30

I don't care what they (those involved and cultural relativists) call it. It is murder and treated as such in court in Western countries, which is all that can be practically done.

Reverend Joe

07-08-2008, 17:37

When a Christian father gets pissed and kills his daughter it's Filicide.

When a Muslim father gets pissed and kills his daughter it's Honor Killing.

This is the thanks we get for being tolerant. :wall:

(And by the way, the idea that this is "honor killing" -- or even remotely acceptable, for that matter -- is horse:daisy:, and I'm sure that the majority of Muslims these days would agree. Lock the sucka up.)

Fragony

07-08-2008, 17:47

I don't care what they (those involved and cultural relativists) call it. It is murder and treated as such in court in Western countries, which is all that can be practically done.

To say is to make, by calling these murders honor killings instead of murder you are giving them a twisted sort of legitimacy, as if their sorry honor is anything worth killing for. There is a lot of power in word and it's specification and that power should be wielded very carefully. Basicly the same as the guy shooting burglars in the back thread, what possesion has enough value to shoot someone in the back.

Goofball

07-08-2008, 18:01

atheotes

07-08-2008, 18:13

Well, you guys can "file" this under whatever heading you want, but I'm with PJ on this one: it was a religiously/culturally-inspired honor killing.

While honor killings of women by family members may not be prevalent among all muslims or all Pakistanis, there is no denying that there is a faction among those groups that believe in the practice and support it.

By defending or denying that it is happening, we are only perpetuating it, rather than ruthlessly stamping it out like we should be.

I believe in multiculturalism. But multiculturalism means the true sharing of cultures. And I hope that eventually we can all adopt the good from each others' cultures while shedding the bad.

Imagine if some of the Pakistani respect for elders and love of education rubbed off on white kids, while Pakistani immigrants to North America were at the same time absorbing our love of freedom and individualism.

Pretty good combination, no?

well put... this is nothing but plain murder. Though I see it as being more culturally inclined than religiously.
I have seen this misguided sense of honour in India too(not restriced to muslims and is more widespread in rural places). They are just idiots who have no sense of perspective. How deluded one must be to kill their own offspring :wall:.There are no justifications...It is nothing but cold-blooded murder.
:furious3:

Fragony

07-08-2008, 18:14

Imagine if some of the Pakistani respect for elders and love of education rubbed off on white kids, while Pakistani immigrants to North America were at the same time absorbing our love of freedom and individualism.

Pretty good combination, no?

You wouldn't believe me but I agree,

I call it multicultism for a reason, force bad. Doesn't excuse any of the lunatics because they mean well. It's a multicultural word and distances are getting shorter, but there is totally such a thing as wanting something too badly. Keep a respectable distance and just leave people be. If you lump someone on my lap I don't notice he has 10 toes and 10 fingers just like me. And respect what's worth respecting but that's where the lunatics start charging walls.

HoreTore

07-08-2008, 18:18

By defending or denying that it is happening, we are only perpetuating it, rather than ruthlessly stamping it out like we should be.

Watering down a term is not a good thing IMO. Honour killings are happening, there is no doubt about that. But not every killing is an honour killing. What we've called honour killings so far, are very well planned and thought-out murders. Not something done in a rage, but a planned and cold-hearted act, with the belief that it is necessary to uphold the family honour and standing.

While honour was the reason he was angry, I wouldn't say that this fits into that category. The guy got mad and killed because he got mad.

Geoffrey S

07-08-2008, 18:24

To say is to make, by calling these murders honor killings instead of murder you are giving them a twisted sort of legitimacy, as if their sorry honor is anything worth killing for. There is a lot of power in word and it's specification and that power should be wielded very carefully. Basicly the same as the guy shooting burglars in the back thread, what possesion has enough value to shoot someone in the back.
First off, I don't view it as honor killing, I view it as murder. Secondly, 'honor killing' is how it is presented by the defenders of such acts - and as far as I'm concerned they can call it whatever they like, as long as it is treated as murder in courts. And in Western ones, it is.

Let's turn this around. By getting hung up over terminology, aren't you yourself legitimizing? More important than how the perpetrators attempt to justify murder, which debate over the name of the phenomenon allows, is how we apply our justice system to prosecute them. And I have yet to see anyone stating that this murderer deserves anything but prosecution to the full extent of the law.

Fragony

07-08-2008, 18:31

Let's turn this around. By getting hung up over terminology, aren't you yourself legitimizing? More important than how the perpetrators attempt to justify murder, which debate over the name of the phenomenon allows, is how we apply our justice system to prosecute them. And I have yet to see anyone stating that this murderer deserves anything but prosecution to the full extent of the law.

But the thing is that they have been, it wasn't untill so long until cultural sensesitivies for cases like this were dismissed as having any value, but in cases less ' serious' it still tends to sneak in. It isn't really a theoritical discussion because it's still common practise to what extend or another. Remember the thread about the women who had to expect to be beaten because she married a north-african? Judge is trying to make sense out of the complexity of society but the law is complex enough, that is why we have judges to deal with law it's complex and we leave other things to other smart people.

Ironside

07-08-2008, 18:58

Fragony

07-08-2008, 19:07

Might have something to do with that honour stopped being worth killing for several generations ago.

Well there is such a thing as taking that too far as well. Like Sweden does.

Ironside

07-08-2008, 19:19

Well there is such a thing as taking that too far as well. Like Sweden does.

Please, please tell me now, what honour do the man with more brains than the entire European left combined consider worth killing for?

Edit: Adrian nr 4 is superior is because outrage is the true opium for the masses.

Adrian II

07-08-2008, 19:19

That's the third stage, coming four pages from now. We are still in phase 1.

1 - denial. 'It didn't happen'
2 - relativation. 'Besides, we do it too'
3 - defense. 'And what's so bad about it anyway? And if only we wouldn't have....and if only she would have...and blahblah'Excuse me, but you are stealing my thunder. I did this first in the other thread about the 'forced prayer to Allah'. And besides I like mine better:

1. It didn't happen, so why bother
2. It happens all the time, so why bother
3. Christians do it too, so nya nya
4. OK, it did happen so the end of the world is near

For the record, you and Fragony are in 4. Why 4 should be superior to 1-3 beats me. But then I'm not a psychiatrist.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

07-08-2008, 19:26

For the record, you and Fragony are in 4. Why 4 should be superior to 1-3 beats me. But then I'm not a psychiatrist.

5. It did happen, it's not a big deal on a relative basis, but we have to deal with it now.

Fragony

07-08-2008, 19:47

Please, please tell me now, what honour do the man with more brains than the entire European left combined consider worth killing for?

That ever short moment when disbelief and accusation collide, the look on their faces, that hint of a moment worth living for.

Adrian II

07-08-2008, 19:52

I think Ironside has it. This sort of selective outrage is apparently addictive. :bow:

Proletariat

07-08-2008, 20:41

Adrian II

07-08-2008, 21:02

Does it really matter what stupid, evil reason someone has for taking another life?Of course it matters. It matters because certain reasons are more readily accepted than others in certain cultures. What Panzerjaeger is saying is that this reflects on the culture in question (i.e. Pakistani or Muslim culture) which according to him is stupid and evil as well.

Do you agree with him?

Geoffrey S

07-08-2008, 21:41

Of course it matters. It matters because certain reasons are more readily accepted than others in certain cultures. What Panzerjaeger is saying is that this reflects on the culture in question (i.e. Pakistani or Muslim culture) which according to him is stupid and evil as well.
Then does it really matter if it is accepted in the culture of the perpetrator, the mentioned Pakistani or Muslim culture? Since this took place in an area where said cultures aren't dominant by any means, what matters is how the host culture i.e. the Western culture deals with this sort of behaviour. Trying to link it back to the culture of origin, which is what Panzerjaeger and Fragony seem to be doing, appears to me to be just as irrelevant whether criticizing or justifying. It's practically creating the clichéd strawman of multiculturalism, where there really needs to be none.

Must add that I like HoreTore's post;

Watering down a term is not a good thing IMO. Honour killings are happening, there is no doubt about that. But not every killing is an honour killing. What we've called honour killings so far, are very well planned and thought-out murders. Not something done in a rage, but a planned and cold-hearted act, with the belief that it is necessary to uphold the family honour and standing.
Law does distinguish between premeditated murder and crime of passion. Plenty of debate about how that is applied in cases unrelated to 'honor killings', too.

Adrian II

07-08-2008, 21:51

Trying to link it back to the culture of origin, which is what Panzerjaeger and Fragony seem to be doing, appears to me to be just as irrelevant whether criticizing or justifying.I believe reading problems are becoming an epidemic on this forum.

Police said they interviewed Rashad and he said he killed his daughter as a matter of honor, because he felt her plans for divorce would have disgraced the family. [..] Malik said arranged marriages are not uncommon for Pakistanis. He said the marriages are usually accepted and successful, although young people living in American might develop problems with them.Now read a bit from an Amnesty International report about honor killings in Pakistan (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/018/1999/en/dom-ASA330181999en.html):

Women in Pakistan live in fear. They face death by shooting, burning or killing with axes if they are deemed to have brought shame on the family. They are killed for supposed 'illicit' relationships, for marrying men of their choice, for divorcing abusive husbands. They are even murdered by their kin if they are raped as they are thereby deemed to have brought shame on their family. The truth of the suspicion does not matter -- merely the allegation is enough to bring dishonour on the family and therefore justifies the slaying.

The lives of millions of women in Pakistan are circumscribed by traditions which enforce extreme seclusion and submission to men. Male relatives virtually own them and punish contraventions of their proprietary control with violence. For the most part, women bear traditional male control over every aspect of their bodies, speech and behaviour with stoicism, as part of their fate, but exposure to media, the work of women's groups and a greater degree of mobility have seen the beginnings of women's rights awareness seep into the secluded world of women. But if women begin to assert their rights, however tentatively, the response is harsh and immediate: the curve of honour killings has risen parallel to the rise in awareness of rights.If the coin hasn't dropped yet and the cultural background of the Rashad case isn't clear to you, I am at a loss how to explain your blindness.

Geoffrey S

07-08-2008, 22:17

I believe reading problems are becoming an epidemic on this forum.
Indeed they are. Perhaps because people rejoice in posting the blindingly obvious? Of course the cultural background of the family is clear. I don't however see the relevance of that fact when the means exist in Western law to deal with these crimes on Western soil.

This type of murders in Pakistan itself is another matter. But that isn't the spirit in which this topic was opened, or discussed further.

Goofball

07-08-2008, 22:27

I think it's Geoffrey, who like usual, has got it. Who cares if it's an honor killing or not, it's a murder at the end of the day.

The same people who think a Muslim honor killing makes any difference are probably the same people who are outraged by the term 'hate crimes.' Does it really matter what stupid, evil reason someone has for taking another life? I hope the father enjoys an honorable electrocution.

I think it matters. I think the reason in this case makes the crime even more deplorable than normal murder. In some murders, for example, it is easy to see that the person who did it is remorseful, and that this is most likely the only crime that they really had in them, and society would most likely be safe from them even if we didn't send them to prison (although I'm certainly not suggesting that they not be sent to prison).

In murders like this, which are committed because of ideology, the murderer thinks he has the moral high ground. He doesn't see anything wrong with what he has done, and would certainly do so again.

That's the difference.

It's the same reason why I support classifying certain crimes as hate crimes, and imposing longer sentences for their perpetrators. A guys who kills a homosexual because he believes Jesus wants him to, or a guy who kills a jew because he believes Allah wants him to, those are the guys that are going to keep doing it again and again, because they think they are right.

Lock'em up forever. Just warehouse them...

Adrian II

07-08-2008, 22:43

I don't however see the relevance of that fact when the means exist in Western law to deal with these crimes on Western soil.Because Mr Malik of the Pakistani American Community is living on Western soil. And Mr Malik of the Pakistani American Community blames American culture for the failure of the marriage and indirectly for the resulting tragedy:

Malik said arranged marriages are not uncommon for Pakistanis. He said the marriages are usually accepted and successful, although young people living in American might develop problems with them.

"Their minds are changed when they live here due to this system," said Malik.OP took the liberty of criticizing Mr Malik.

I find it fascinating that he, a Fascist, is apparently very concerned with women's rights in Pakistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world. And that for him, as a Fascist, the usual axiomata of 'might is right' and 'survival of the fittest' suddenly don't apply when it comes to the fate of Muslim women.

And all in all, I think Ironside is right that a desire for permanent outrage governs this sort of discussion.

In murders like this, which are committed because of ideology, the murderer thinks he has the moral high ground.Exactly. And Mr Malik's suggestion that the murder resulted from American culture meddling with the murderer's culture of origin is a form of hate speech, disguised as multiculturalism.

Louis VI the Fat

07-09-2008, 00:49

Excuse me, but you are stealing my thunder. I did this first in the other thread about the 'forced prayer to Allah'. And besides I like mine better:

1. It didn't happen, so why bother
2. It happens all the time, so why bother
3. Christians do it too, so nya nya Much as I would love to say that great minds think alike, I am afraid that it seems to have been, in fact, you who (subconsciously?) stole my thunder (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1960753&postcount=42):

I guess before we'll reach page five the acts of any non-Westerner to control, rape, maim, flog or murder women will have been, first, denied, next, 'put into perspective', then, defended by the left.
('It doesn't exist, and besides, we do it too')
1. It didn't happen, so why bother
2. It happens all the time, so why bother
3. Christians do it too, so nya nya

On to your point four:

4. OK, it did happen so the end of the world is near

For the record, you and Fragony are in 4. Why 4 should be superior to 1-3 beats me. But then I'm not a psychiatrist. I think Fragony and I divert at number four. In my same post, quoted above, I also wrote a scathing indictement of the right:
"Not, of course, that the rights of women (or homosexuals, or minorities) mean anything to the right unless and until they can foam about them being violated by non-Westerners."

But I'll play your psychiatrist and give an explanation. The explanation is that I don't even care what 4 is. I'll join Frags in hell, so certainly in any 4. Here's why.

As little as a few months ago, I thought Frags was, well I would not say a raving lunatic when talking about the multicultural leftist danger, but certainly a fanatic, a crusader against windmills. Two threads changed my mind. The one about that 19 year old gang raped Saudi girl, sentenced to the lash. Page after page posters showed a complete blindspot for the simple truth that one does not flog a teenage girl. The next incident was the 'when Arab men sexually assault Norwegian women for immodest dress or behaviour, then it's the fault of Norwegian women'. Again, the rights of women were immediately and without further ado abandoned to accomodate any man with any urge to violate women. Norwegian women, according to several posters, ought to show due submission to Arab men in public.

Those two threads were full of 'what-did-he-just-say!?' moments. It was there, that I decided that Fragony had been right all along. I am not sure I share his ideas about a Muslim treat, or his ideas about the multicultural society in itself. But for all of Frag's faults, he has opened my eyes for a giant leftist blindspot. He expressed the fault well in this thread again: "Now be a good progressive and defend ultra-conservative values".

We all have our red cloth that makes us charge at it like a bull. My red cloth is defending the flogging of teenage girls for being raped, and telling assaulted women they should've shown due submission to their molesters. And the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So yes, Louis is with Fragony's crusade against the multicultural left, and I don't care what anybody thinks about it.

Alexander the Pretty Good

07-09-2008, 01:04

You're alright, Frenchie. ;)

Maybe arranged marriages are part of the problem?

Adrian II

07-09-2008, 01:09

But for all of Frag's faults, he has opened my eyes for a giant leftist blindspot. He expressed the fault well in this thread again: "Now be a good progressive and defend ultra-conservative values".I even told you time and again why fringe lefties do this: because they regard immigrants as a new proletariat that questions the western society they hate so much. If the immigrants were 6 inch dwarfs from the planet Pluto, they would welcome them and regard their values as 'authentic'.

Louis, like me and others you used to support what I will call Goofball's variety of multiculturalism as stated above in this thread: combine the best aspects of different cultures, without ever betraying the framework of democracy and the rule of law. I see no reason why you should narrow your view to join a blind hate campaign, just as there is no need to join a blind multiculturalism. It reminds me of the silly Interbellum credo that everyone had to chose between Berlin or Moscow, and that here was no reasonable choice in between those extremes. It took a full-blown world war to find that middle road again. Let's not start all over, it's just silly.

PanzerJaeger

07-09-2008, 01:30

5. It did happen, it's not a big deal on a relative basis, but we have to deal with it now.

:yes:

I'm certainly not losing sleep over it, but I think it is important highlight this type of behavior, especially when it takes place in the Western World. The mainstream thought process seems to avoid any critical analysis of muslim culture, with the Left being particularly morally bankrupt on the subject - putting deference towards islam above basic human rights.

More importantly, and why I posted the story, was to point out the thought process Mr. Malik displayed, not that of the murderer.(His mental state is fairly obvious.) Instead of absolute condemnation, the man - a leader in and spokesman for the Pakistani Community - redirected the blame towards the girl and American culture for causing her to act independently.

Mr. Malik's expressed opinions underscore exactly what I've been saying about the islamic world here for years. While the majority of muslims are not radicalized, there are very serious faults endemic to that society that breed all manner of depraved behavior which spills over into the West - including terrorism. Until islamic society changes some of its basic premises, things will not get better. We are not helping the situation by pretending it doesn't exist either.

I find it fascinating that he, a Fascist, is apparently very concerned with women's rights in Pakistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world. And that for him, as a Fascist, the usual axiomata of 'might is right' and 'survival of the fittest' suddenly don't apply when it comes to the fate of Muslim women.

I'm only concerned because it effects us, directly and indirectly.

Geoffrey S

07-09-2008, 01:31

Because Mr Malik of the Pakistani American Community is living on Western soil. And Mr Malik of the Pakistani American Community blames American culture for the failure of the marriage and indirectly for the resulting tragedy:

Malik said arranged marriages are not uncommon for Pakistanis. He said the marriages are usually accepted and successful, although young people living in American might develop problems with them.

"Their minds are changed when they live here due to this system," said Malik.OP took the liberty of criticizing Mr Malik.
Unfortunately, that problem is true enough. Where I'd like to think Mr Malik and the participants here diverge is in who we put at fault: the girl for adjusting to her new surroundings and culture, or the father (and perhaps, the husband) for clinging to his inappropriate sense of culture? Let alone when it comes to punishing the murderer - though I trust the US justice system to make clear enough which rules apply.

Redleg

07-09-2008, 01:49

Well fortunately this killing happened in the West so the father will most likely end up in prison for a period of time to reflect upon his killing of his child. I wonder after spending some time in the hell holes that prisons often are, if he figures out that his "honor killing" wasn't about the mixing of two cultures but his own personal pride and ambitions concerning his own worth.

I would image in a few weeks (if he hasn't alreadly) that he determines that his honor wasn't worth the death of his child.

Tribesman

07-09-2008, 01:53

Two threads changed my mind. The one about that 19 year old gang raped Saudi girl, sentenced to the lash. Page after page posters showed a complete blindspot for the simple truth that one does not flog a teenage girl.
Don't talk bollox Louis , no one had a blind spot there apart from the muppets who kept insisting that the poor woman was being flogged for being raped . And that is where Frag always gets it wrong , he finds a story that is bad , and then tries to sell it as something that it isn't .
If he had gone on the "crazy wahibis flog a teenager for breaking silly laws on social custom" fine no worries , no arguements whatever that stuff is shite , instead it was "girl gets flogged for getting raped" which is absolute bollox as it wasn't true .
There is enough crap out there that he can write about without constantly having to make it up like he does .

Crazed Rabbit

07-09-2008, 03:21

Sounds like a typical murder by an angry man. The only reason you say it's an honour killing is because of his nationality, religion and why he was mad.

Hahaha! Oh man, that was good.

Don't talk bollox Louis , no one had a blind spot there apart from the muppets who kept insisting that the poor woman was being flogged for being raped .

How would the legal system in that barbaric place have found out about her "crime" and thus punished her with flogging if she had not been raped?

What Panzerjaeger is saying is that this reflects on the culture in question (i.e. Pakistani or Muslim culture) which according to him is stupid and evil as well.

Do you agree with him?

Yes. It's a stupid, barbaric culture that does what you posted from Amnesty International.

I don't think everyone from their shares that culture, but this man obviously did.

CR

Proletariat

07-09-2008, 04:15

Of course it matters. It matters because certain reasons are more readily accepted than others in certain cultures. What Panzerjaeger is saying is that this reflects on the culture in question (i.e. Pakistani or Muslim culture) which according to him is stupid and evil as well.

Do you agree with him?

Sure, I think alot of Pakistani and Muslim culture are backwards, stupid and evil. But honor killings just don't get me that excited. It sounds like an antiquated barbarism that's incredibly rare in Western countries that gets used as a sexy anti-Muslim headline. The most surprising thing about the story is that Pakistanis exist in Georgia.

Now when it comes to quotes like this

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" Sheikh Hilali was quoted as asking during the sermon.

And Mr Malik's take, well it upsets me, but it won't keep me up at night. If I lived in Europe with the inundation of these thoughts and views from immigrants and with the Left's support for the new 'proletariat' I wouldn't know what to think. Here I don't have that concern, so if people want to bring their cultures and ways on over they're welcome. They can just accept that some of their customs and traditions may end them up in jail or in a gas chamber in Georgia.

Devastatin Dave

07-09-2008, 06:53

There are Pakistanis in Clayton County? :inquisitive: I've been away from Georgia too long...
Sweet, I was born and raised in Clayton County. Jonesboro to be exact. The place has some of the worst schools in the country now. They've lost their accreditation. It use to be a great place to raise a family, now you can't give a house away there. Its been sucked into the Atlanta urban "culture". My folks are trapped there because they didn't sell their house in the 90's when most whites fled the county from the parasite known as Atlanta. Its quite remarkable to see "white flight" in action. If you go the ajc.com, they have there own Clayton County section. You can enjoy the endless articles on the county government giving unqualified minorities jobs for the sake of diversity and all the corruption and scandal within the school system. Man, but honor killings now. That’s just awesome!!! I mean the place is like a petri dish for multiculturalism. It warms my heart. I'm going to wait for some genital mutilation and stoning before I pass judgment on whether the good folks in Clayton County have truly embraced diversity!!! :laugh4:

Devastatin Dave

07-09-2008, 06:56

There are Pakistanis in Clayton County? :inquisitive: I've been away from Georgia too long...

The only "minority" in Clayton County are whites...:yes:

Devastatin Dave

07-09-2008, 06:59

So does this mean the family was really fitting in , instead of a good'ol boys shotgun wedding to preserve the family honour its a shotgun divorce .
?

Please provide an article from the last 2 decades of this occuring the Clayton Country as my friend Panzer supplied...

Fragony

07-09-2008, 08:07

Don't talk bollox Louis , no one had a blind spot there apart from the muppets who kept insisting that the poor woman was being flogged for being raped . And that is where Frag always gets it wrong , he finds a story that is bad , and then tries to sell it as something that it isn't .
If he had gone on the "crazy wahibis flog a teenager for breaking silly laws on social custom" fine no worries , no arguements whatever that stuff is shite , instead it was "girl gets flogged for getting raped" which is absolute bollox as it wasn't true .
There is enough crap out there that he can write about without constantly having to make it up like he does .

nanananananaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanaaa

Tribesman

07-09-2008, 10:10

How would the legal system in that barbaric place have found out about her "crime" and thus punished her with flogging if she had not been raped?

Well Rabbit they have these nice people who call themselves the "moral majority" they wander the streets picking up people to see if they can beat the crap out of them for not having good conservative values , and of course since most of the moral police are volunteers it is fiscally prudent .
I would have thought that family values , chartity and social responsibilty were right up your street .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Viking

07-09-2008, 12:50

Norwegian women, according to several posters, ought to show due submission to Arab men in public.

You could build several straw hut villages with the straws of that strawman. :yes:

KukriKhan

07-09-2008, 13:57

A few observations:

The Dad strangled his daughter. Didn't beat her, or stab her, or otherwise try to hurt or snuff her. Aren't strangulations an attempt to shut someone up? Make them stop saying what the strangler considers 'bad talk'? Is not that passionate action/reaction universal, not just Pakistani? I'm not excusing the action. She died (which I bet surprised Dad, despite his playing the 'family honour' card), in America, so it's murder.

Had the daughter totally embraced The American WayTM, she'd have not only filed for divorce, she wouldn't have bothered consulting her family about it, AND she'd have been packing a Smit&Wesson .38 Special... and breathing today.

On the 4 phases of argument (or 3 or 5) in the backroom: I've been here quite awhile, and agree that it's a rare topic that survives page 3 in its original form. By then, sides have been picked, and the posts either become personal, or the topic morphs into some other "big picture" topic.

Adrian II

07-09-2008, 15:23

If I lived in Europe with the inundation of these thoughts and views from immigrants and with the Left's support for the new 'proletariat' I wouldn't know what to think.Over here it's just a 'sexy anti-Muslim headline', too. Of course honour killing is not typically Muslim, it is a traditional phenomenon among Sikhs and Hindus, among Christians in the Middle East, Greece, Italy (Sicily), etcetera.

The relationship between Islam and terrorism/abuse of women/relatd backward behaviour is similar to that between the U.S. and obesity. Not all Americans are fat, not all fatties in this world are Americans - but the U.S. has an obesity problem, no doubt about it. Apply this to Islam, mutatis mutandis, and you have the outline. Islam is not a problem, but it has a problem in that it incorporates backward views of political and family life.

In my country honour killings happen so rarely, given the numbers of immigrants from countries traditionally afflicted by the practice, that apart from a certain member of this forum no Dutchman loses sleep over them. Over the past few years some murders have been claimed as honour killings but on closer inspection they were not. Given the general level of education and sophistication of said immigrants, the low number of incidents is even more surprising. And this without having recourse to gas chambers.

The fact that we can accommodate such a huge wave of relatively uneducated migrants makes my country more of an immigrant nation than the United States. Put that in your electric chair and smoke it.

HoreTore

07-09-2008, 15:36

The relationship between Islam and terrorism/abuse of women/relatd backward behaviour is similar to that between the U.S. and obesity. Not all Americans are fat, not all fatties in this world are Americans - but the U.S. has an obesity problem, no doubt about it.

Remember that time I said we would talk again when you recovered from your hangover? Well, now is the time it seems, this is what I was trying to say in that thread, and I knew you had the same opinion ~;)

Lemur

07-09-2008, 15:47

On a related note, here's an ad campaign for hijab (the veil) with a new take -- protect your family's honor from flies!

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/hajabpropaganda.jpg

Supposedly the text reads: "You won't be able to stop them (i.e. men), but you can protect yourself. He who created you knows what's best for you!"

I am reminded of a famous (and statistically ineffective) lecture (http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather/2008/04/25/young_adults_testify_against_abstinence_only_sex_education) about toothbrushes ...

One demonstration our teacher used left little doubt as to our worth as a future spouse or partner if we were to engage in sex before marriage. He would routinely pull an often squirming and reluctant, and always female, volunteer onto the stage, take out a toothbrush that looked like it had been used to scrub toilets and ask if she would brush her teeth with it. When she predictably refused, he pulled out another toothbrush, this one pristine in its original box, and asked her if she would brush her teeth with that one. When she answered in the affirmative, he turned to the assembly and said, “If you have sex before marriage, you are a dirty toothbrush.”

Adrian II

07-09-2008, 15:49

Remember that time I said we would talk again when you recovered from your hangover? Well, now is the time it seems, this is what I was trying to say in that thread, and I knew you had the same opinion ~;)We didn't, and you weren't. And it isn't, you dirty commie toothbrush! :furious3:

You said that Islam as such had no problem with honour killings because you knew a few Muslims from Libya who had never heard of it.

I then explained to you that this might be because Libyan women whose honour has been 'injured' are whisked away to veritable concentration camps.

If you now agree that Islam does have a problem, we are indeed of the same opinion.

HoreTore

07-09-2008, 15:57

We didn't, and you weren't. And it isn't, you dirty commie toothbrush! :furious3:

You said that Islam as such had no problem with honour killings because you knew a few Muslims from Libya who had never heard of it.

You read way too much into what I said, that was simply an anecdote of sorts ~;)

The point I was trying to make was simply that the muslim culture is diverse, in response to PJ's post where he treated the muslim culture as homogeneous. There are areas where things like honour killings happen, and there are areas where that doesn't happen... I didn't make any comment at all on whether women are abused in the muslim world at all(as the answer to that is pretty darn obvious).

If you now agree that Islam does have a problem, we are indeed of the same opinion.

I am no theologist, so I don't comment on any religion itself, I leave that to the learned. But of course, there are plenty of muslims who have major problems, but I see that as so obvious that I don't see the need to point it out...

Andres

07-09-2008, 16:11

Goofball

07-09-2008, 17:10

I'm with Geoffrey and Prole on this one.

All this talk about culture, honor and blahblahblah seems totally irrelevant to me.

We are talking about a man who killed his own daughter and now pathetic excuses are being invented for this despicable and cowardly act. There is no justification and no explanation. He should be sentenced and hopefully severely punished as soon as possible, period.

I disagree. He should be more severely punished than a "normal" murderer because of the especially hateful nature of the crime and because the motivation behind his crime would indicate a higher than normal chance of recidivism.

By ignoring all of that and just saying "Meh, he's no different from the guy who lost control during a bar fight and killed a guy" we are almost saying that this type of behaviour is to be expected.

Proletariat

07-09-2008, 17:15

The fact that we can accommodate such a huge wave of relatively uneducated migrants makes my country more of an immigrant nation than the United States. Put that in your electric chair and smoke it.

I don't understand how you're measuring this, but I'll take your word for it. Over here we certainly take for granted that our immigrant invasion is by people who share the same values. They do the one thing that's expected of immigrants here which is basically just to work hard and make someone some money pronto. If the shoe was on the other foot and Turkey switched locations with Mexico I'm pretty sure we'd handle the situation just as poorly.

Honor killings don't bother me because of they're so rare they're meaningless, and there's much bigger fish to fry with Europe's culture clash with Islamicists. Louis' explanation of how much greater sexism is in Europe than racism was a big eye opener for me (somewhere in one of the Hillary vs Obama election threads, can't find it now). No one here can do anything about extremist idiots from Islam, but when Western countries start shifting their views to accommodate these inhumanities, then I'll get excited. The US will be immune to this, and I doubt Europe has much to worry about. But that's up to you guys, and depends on how bad the problem is. I have no idea how serious the problem in Europe is because the arguments and headlines are dominated by these overblown honor killing headlines (and no, I didn't forget this happened in the US).

Put that in yer windmill and grind it, esteemed effendi.

Proletariat

07-09-2008, 17:20

I disagree. He should be more severely punished than a "normal" murderer because of the especially hateful nature of the crime and because the motivation behind his crime would indicate a higher than normal chance of recidivism.

By ignoring all of that and just saying "Meh, he's no different from the guy who lost control during a bar fight and killed a guy" we are almost saying that this type of behaviour is to be expected.

A guy losing control in a bar and killing someone is charged with a different sort of murder than someone who thought it through his a**brain and then went and killed someone. There shouldn't be any sort of grading the punishment related to what reasoning a person had, imo, but I see what you're saying about murderers who think they have the high ground. But what can you do in practice about that? 'Ten extra years in jail for anyone who thought they had a good reason for killing someone.'

:dizzy2:

Adrian II

07-09-2008, 18:04

Put that in yer windmill and grind it, esteemed effendi.With the greatest of pleasure, begum. https://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8719/waterpipepp7.gif (https://imageshack.us)

Andres

07-09-2008, 20:46

I disagree. He should be more severely punished than a "normal" murderer because of the especially hateful nature of the crime and because the motivation behind his crime would indicate a higher than normal chance of recidivism.

Obviously, any murderer who committed his crime under aggravating circumstances and/or has a higher chance of recidivism should be punished more severely and/or should be subjected to additional measures. That's self-evident :shrug:

By ignoring all of that and just saying "Meh, he's no different from the guy who lost control during a bar fight and killed a guy" we are almost saying that this type of behaviour is to be expected.

That's not what I've said. Please, don't twist my words.

Besides, the guy who lost control during a bar fight will be charged with manslaughter, not murder.

Louis VI the Fat

07-09-2008, 22:14

Gah! I wrote a long post, replying to some comments and deconstructing multi-cultural discourse in general. Then my computer ate it. So you'll have to make do then with the court hearing (http://www.ajc.com/search/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/07/08/clayton_daughter_killed.html):

I'm innocent, says man held in daughter's death

A Pakistani man accused of killing his daughter five days after she filed for divorce to end her arranged marriage wept in court Tuesday, telling a Clayton County magistrate he is innocent.

"I have done nothing wrong," Chaudhry Rashid told Chief Magistrate Daphne Walker through interpreter Younis Farhat. Farhat said Rashid speaks primarily Urdu and Punjabi.

But police say Rashid, 54, used a bungee cord to strangle Sandeela Kanwal, 25, early Sunday morning in the family's Utah Drive home in Jonesboro.

Geoffrey S

07-09-2008, 22:28

InsaneApache

07-10-2008, 02:51

But police say Rashid, 54, used a bungee cord to strangle Sandeela Kanwal, 25

No come back there then. :shame:

DemonArchangel

07-10-2008, 03:04

That was possibly the worst pun ever.

Crazed Rabbit

07-10-2008, 03:21

but when Western countries start shifting their views to accommodate these inhumanities, then I'll get excited. The US will be immune to this, and I doubt Europe has much to worry about.

Hmm...

State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos on Thursday cited the Saudi government's 2006 acknowledgement of a need to revise its textbooks and agreement to do so "in time for the start of the 2008 school year," which starts this fall.

"For several years we've engaged the Saudi government on the need to eliminate intolerant references toward other religious groups in textbooks and other educational materials used in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere," Mr. Gallegos said. "And we'll continue to work with the Saudi government in efforts to revise the textbooks."

The passages found in the review, according to the panel, include:

c A passage in a 12th-grade Koranic interpretation textbook that states it is permissible for a Muslim to kill those who have left the faith, an adulterer or someone who has murdered a Muslim intentionally: "He (praised is He) prohibits killing the soul that God has forbidden (to kill) unless for just cause ...."

The commission said the text defines "just cause" as "unbelief after belief, adultery and killing an inviolable believer intentionally."

c A social sciences track that states, "The cause of the discord: The Jews conspired against Islam and its people. A sly, wicked person who sinfully and deceitfully professed Islam infiltrated (the Muslims). He was 'Abd Allah b. Saba´ (from the Jews of Yemen)."

State Department officials said Thursday they have no plans to close a Saudi-financed Islamic school in Northern Virginia that has failed to eliminate violent and intolerant language in textbooks.

"They told us they would revise the textbooks by the 2008 school year," State Department spokesman Rob McInturff said. "We don't plan to take additional action apart from the discussions that have been going on with the Saudi government."

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/13/state-allows-operation-of-islamic-school/?page=1

Sounds like accommodation of hate; and passages saying its alright to kill someone who stops being a Muslim.

And in Minnesota;

http://www.startribune.com/local/17406054.html

Teacher questions Muslim practices at charter school

By KATHERINE KERSTEN, Star Tribune

Recently, I wrote about Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy (TIZA), a K-8 charter school in Inver Grove Heights. Charter schools are public schools and by law must not endorse or promote religion.

Evidence suggests, however, that TIZA is an Islamic school, funded by Minnesota taxpayers.

Later at that 'school':
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S449649.shtml?cat=1

News crew confronted at school

In an attempt to report about the new findings from the department of education Monday, 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS went to Tarik ibn Zayad Academy in Inver Grove Heights.

While on school grounds, our crew was confronted by school officials. Our photographer was injured while wrestling with the two men over the camera.

CR

KukriKhan

07-10-2008, 03:30

But police say Rashid, 54, used a bungee cord to strangle Sandeela Kanwal, 25, early Sunday morning in the family's Utah Drive home in Jonesboro.

I retract, rescind, and regret my previous musing on whether a hands-on strangling was an attempt to silence the victim - gone wrong.

What an idiot. Georgia will take care of this, no doubt. They've gone from hanging, to electrocution, to lethal injection. pdf link (http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/pdf/TheDeathPenaltyinGeorgia.pdf), after he spends about 15-20 years in their penal system (at @$50,000 per year; 20% higher than the average personal income of the average Georgian) filing appeals.

Welcome to America. Please obey our laws. Don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, or drive drunk. Have a nice day.

naut

07-10-2008, 04:56

Ok, let me get this straight. To save his family from disgrace he decides to destroy his family and disgrace himself by killing his daughter. Progressive.

"You won't be able to stop them (i.e. men), but you can protect yourself. He who created you knows what's best for you!":laugh4: Hah, what a laugh.

Tribesman

07-10-2008, 08:22

But police say Rashid, 54, used a bungee cord to strangle Sandeela Kanwal, 25
It appears it was an extreme relationship , perhaps this gives a new meaning to bouncing back from a messy divorce .

But anyway this "honour" stuff , there was a strange use of the word over here this past week .
This woman wanted to kill her partner over some breakdown in their relationship because as they were not married a divorce wasn't an option . Yet as they were not married even when he was killed she would not have inherited his rather sizable fortune as it would have gone to their sons , so she was going to have them killed too .
Incredibly she appealed to have the trial stopped and the charges dropped as the case was damaging her families honour and dragging their good name into the gutter:dizzy2:
Some people have a strange idea of honour don't they .