Indo-Sakas, Indo-Parthians

[Anakuj]

Dear Persian Catapracht and Keravnos!

It seems to me that you are the only ones in these forum boards who have an incredible knowledge about the Ancient East, so I hope you can clear up my confused mind!

My 'problem' is the following: some times ago my brother showed me a very old preview of your Saka Rauka faction, where he found a very-very great and detailed paper about the sakas. I have read some parts of it several times now, but there is a part what I just can't understand.

Among his (Azes II's) billon coins, there is issued on the reverse the Prakrit legend "Indravarmaputrasa aspavarmasa strategasa jayatasa", or "of the victorious strategos Aspavarma, son of Indravarma". This man, probably an Indo-Greek general as his name suggests, also appears on a coin type closely related to those of Gondophares, the founder of the Indo-Parthian kingdom that later conquered the Indo-Saka kingdom of Azes II, which has lead to the suggestion that Aspavarma first served Azes II as a general ruling jointly with Azes II in the western Panjab and then later turned his allegiance to the conquering power - Gondophares and the Indo-Parthian kingdom.

- Thats clear. But:

These pieces of evidence, linking Azes II with Gondophares by Aspavarma, suggest that there is almost no doubt Azes II fell to the expanding power of Gondophares, whose regnal year most scholars seem to conclude was AD 19. From this, we can possibly deduce, according to one authority, that Azes II was ruling "within a decade or two of the birth of Christ", ie c.20-10 BC.

Is the regnal year means Gondophares' first year on the throne, or the last one? And if Azes II was ruling c.20-10 BC how could he fell to the expanding power of Gondophares, whose (maybe) first year on throne was AD 19, 15-20 years later then the fall of Azes II? According to Iranica.com and some other numismatic sites Azes II was ruling between 58-10 BC or 35-12 BC or 20 BC-5 AD. English is my third language, so please forgive me if it seems a very silly question, but I'm totally confused, and you are my last hope. :dizzy2:

THANK YOU!!!!!


Oh, there is something other, too. In my History Atlas I have seen that the 'capital' or center of Hyrkania was Zadrakarta, not Zadrakata. But if this is the native name of it or something, erm... just ignore me. :sweatdrop::sweatdrop::oops:.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Welcome to the forum :ave:

That seems to be a typo; Gondophares regnal year begins at around 19-20 CE, where he declares independence from the Arsacids (Gondophares was a Sûrên noble, and therefore could only hold fiefs and participate in the council of nobility; No right to a royal claim in the normal sense). It seems that by his advent, the Indo-Scythians were standing on their last legs and were only a few years away until they would be relegated to the so-called "Western Satraps".

Both Kujula Kadphises (The proper founder of the later Kushan empire; Son of Heraios) and Gondophares caused an enormous rift in the area, which would be completed by the death of Azes II. A common figure that I see is that Azes II falls out of history at 12 CE, and in a rough marker, 20 CE is the thumb figure for which the Indo-Scythian hegemony is succeeded by the Indo-Parthians. It actually marks the beginning of Gondophares' independence. The thing is that he first expanded, and when he felt satisfied by his achievements he no longer needed to be a mere subordinate noble, and so made Kabul his capital.

As for Zadrakata, dismiss it for now, it's not mine. By this time, "Zadrakata" (You are right, the accurate form is Zadrakarta/Zadrakert, it's an Iranian naming convention for "dwelling"; The -kert suffix tells it all) did not formally exist. Instead by this time, it should in fact be Syrinx.

[Anakuj]

Welcome to the forum :ave:

[...]

Both Kujula Kadphises (The proper founder of the later Kushan empire; Son of Heraios) and Gondophares caused an enormous rift in the area, which would be completed by the death of Azes II.



Thank You, SIR!

I am absolutly satisfied. :2thumbsup: There is just one little thing: can you date these two Kushan rulers (Heraios and Kujula), because every websites date them differently? :dizzy2:

Thank You

[keravnos]

This is the version I have found to be the most credible.


Kujala kadphises: Kujula Kadphises (30-80 AD) established the Kushan dynasty in 78 AD by taking advantage of the feud existing between Pahalava (Parthian) and Scytho-Parthians. His origins are pretty obscure, though it is considered that he was a descendant of the Kushan ruler Heraios. He shares his name with some of the last Indo-Scythian rulers, such as Liaka Kusulaka or his son Patika Kusulaka. A family connection (with the late Indo-Scythians) might be possible. During Kujula`s reign coins with hellenistic tendencies have been discovered. Representations of Greek demi-god Heracles along with the name of Kujala are pretty common. In the later years, he had been referred to as "Maharajasa", or "Great King" in the coins. Some of the Kujala coins can also be traced to the roman origins.

The defining moment for me is the date in which the Kushan Empire was created which is 78 CE. Everything else is related to that, I think.

It must also be noted that "Stratego" and "Vaga Stratego" or Great/Glorious Strategos are titles of the Indoscythians and Kushana which survived the fall of the IndoGreeks.

[Anakuj]

Thanks both of You! :yes:

By the way, I found this paper on the EB Website too yesterday! Could you tell me who is the author of this excellent overview?

[The Persian Cataphract]

I believe it is mainly the work of Angadil, if memory serves me right. The Saka-Rauka as a faction, are completely the result of his work, and he has been an absolute boon to the team. He provided a solid foundation for the faction to rest upon.

As for early Kushan numismatics... I'd rather not tread into that can of worms. As if Arsacid numismatics didn't give me enough of a hard time, the founders of the Kushan empire are some of the most obscure dynasts in available history, and dates do indeed conflict. It's mainly because the Rabatak inscription, which was made during the rule of Kanishka, gives us several hints on Kushan genealogy, which doesn't seem to melt all that well with the "Book of the Later Han" (Hou Hanshu).

Some believe however (It's getting more popular) that the invasion of the Indo-Parthian kingdom took place later (Which rules out the claim of Gondophares and Kujula ever meeting in conflict), during the rule of Abdagases and/or Sases. Gondophares' reign ended around 47-50 CE, so we have a lot of fog to clear out first. The investiture by Kujula, as Keravnos pointed out, took place peculiarly at 78 CE. The Rabatak inscriptions does address Kujula as "Great grandfather".

Edit: I stand corrected; It is indeed Jurchen_Fury's work. Credit must go where it is due :2thumbsup:

[Krusader]

Jurchen Fury wrote the Saka stuff btw. The faction description & history.

[Anakuj]

Thank You for your answers!

It seems to me that Jurchen Fury isn't a very vocal member. I have never seen him in these boards. Is he an active member?



Edit: I just found this https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74167&highlight=Jurchen topic, and there are many other members I don't know, like Vandal Carthage, Anthony, Angadil... Who are they?

[keravnos]

Legends in their own right, but currently inactive.
Hopefully they will return one day.

[canis latrans]

Gondophares,aspavarma and abdagases all protected the trade the route from east to west from robbers.
the queen of Adiabene Hellena offered protection with her vast army .AzesII the frontiers,his brother the home turf
Following the money ArtabanusII and sons protected the route to babylon.they all had beards (not like you sissy romans and greeks)and that long steaming headband all the princes had them.Gondophares was from the council of peace ,aspavarma(his general)accompanied abdagases.it was 35a.d. when aspavarma accompanied the caravan to media the queen of Adiabene had secured grain for the judeans.
the drought had devastated that years crops.the poor were starving .the high priest annanas and sons only paid tribute to rome ,so the queen bought grain from africa.
Tiberius was going to kill everybody helping with the sale,it was treason to undermine romes power.Rome was going to place tiridates with the help of vitellius that scum of the earth.where was the tenth legion?those traitors of pontus were given the go ahead the attack the queens treasury.
to protect the grain,to protect the golden minorah.tiberius knew it was the right time.Artabanus knew it was the right time to overthrow the military junta in Judea.he hated the romans for what they did to his family.Azes was always at his side but his mom held him back,war was not the answer.bull.